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Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
Not many leagues went unaffected by all the realignment that kicked off in 2010 with the moves of Nebraska and Colorado out of the Big 12. But which ones had the least, or none at all?

By my count, the one that is most obvious is the Ivy League. The SWAC has had no additions or withdrawals since 1999. The MAAC has had very little change.

The one I think is kind of interesting is the MAC. At least in football, since 1997, the MAC added Marshall, Northern Illinois, Buffalo, UCF, Temple, and UMass. But today, the MAC's net result is that only NIU and Buffalo are new since 1996. It has had the least amount of change of all FBS conferences going back not just in the 2010's, but going back 20+ years.

My question is this: why have these leagues had so few changes? Is the lack of change a sign of strength and stability, of weakness and lack of growth, or something else?
04-03-2020 07:24 PM
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
For the MAC, no one has a better option. Buffalo (SUNY, academics, market) probably should’ve been a Big East member but they were way late to the game due to administrative decisions made decades ago. The other 11 are in their natural home. The 12th-most natural member is Marshall, but they hit the CUSA lottery in its heyday back when markets weren’t as emphasized. They fit better in the MAC than today’s CUSA but presidents don’t make lateral moves.
04-03-2020 07:34 PM
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
(04-03-2020 07:34 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  For the MAC, no one has a better option. Buffalo (SUNY, academics, market) probably should’ve been a Big East member but they were way late to the game due to administrative decisions made decades ago. The other 11 are in their natural home. The 12th-most natural member is Marshall, but they hit the CUSA lottery in its heyday back when markets weren’t as emphasized. They fit better in the MAC than today’s CUSA but presidents don’t make lateral moves.

You've had 3 G level conferences covering the south and 2 in the west, but only one in the midwest. Also, these are similar institutions.
04-03-2020 08:48 PM
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
I think a lack of movement demonstrates that there is contentment among the conference membership due to similarities between its institutions.

A conference like the the MAC has a very clear identity— its a conference of regional, industrial Midwest/Great Lakes region state schools who offer football.

If you look at the conferences that have experienced a lot of turnover they’ve been conferences that don’t have a lot of similarities. I think any time you have a conference with football and non-football members you’re asking for trouble. The result is factionalism and competing interests and objectives. Another fault line is the public private split. Sometimes you can get differing schools within a compact footprint to get along just fine but oftentimes you’re going to see strife because of differences in size, athletic budget, and they types of students they enroll.

Above all, I think university presidents want their athletic departments to be aligned with institutions they consider their peers. if you’ve got a school with better academics that the rest there’s a good chance they are a flight risk if they got an offer from a more academically prestigious conference (think Boston U and Loyola to the Patriot).
04-03-2020 09:07 PM
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
(04-03-2020 07:24 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Not many leagues went unaffected by all the realignment that kicked off in 2010 with the moves of Nebraska and Colorado out of the Big 12. But which ones had the least, or none at all?

By my count, the one that is most obvious is the Ivy League. The SWAC has had no additions or withdrawals since 1999. The MAAC has had very little change.

The one I think is kind of interesting is the MAC. At least in football, since 1997, the MAC added Marshall, Northern Illinois, Buffalo, UCF, Temple, and UMass. But today, the MAC's net result is that only NIU and Buffalo are new since 1996. It has had the least amount of change of all FBS conferences going back not just in the 2010's, but going back 20+ years.

My question is this: why have these leagues had so few changes? Is the lack of change a sign of strength and stability, of weakness and lack of growth, or something else?

For the Ivy the only change may bring in a few Patriot league members. Though the Ivy's the Ivy and probably not going to change. The MAC while compact but the schools really have no where else to go. No one is going to go against the Big Ten.

Allot of conference realignment is location of conference, schools available band conference build. The Big West is split between UC and Cal State schools. WCC schools tend to be tied a religion. I think the summit is built around the Dakota schools now.
04-03-2020 09:24 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
Among the G5 conferences, the MAC has probably the most continuity as well as the most in common with each other.

The AAC is clearly a league put together with football strength and television dollars in mind, and certainly not with regional or institutional commonalities in mind.

The relatively new Mountain West has regional schools, state flagships, land Grant's, a military academy, and other state schools mixed together, although they do have a shared, albeit vast, region.

C-USA is Rice plus 13 state schools of varying size and research prowess. While they're all in the southern U.S., the schools are in vastly different parts of the South (or in UTEP's case, the Southwest). This probably explains much of the membership turnover.

The Sun Belt is similar to C-USA, just without a private academic juggernaut and a bit less expansive. It is 10 public schools (12 including UTA and Little Rock) who are of wide ranging size, student body composition, and research productivity.

I've said it before: the above two leagues need to realign on geographic lines so that they'll achieve the stability the MAC has. All three leagues lag behind the other two G5 leagues in revenue and are similar in attendance, but the latter two have much larger travel expenses. The leagues just dont make a lot of sense. Institutionally they may never match up perfectly, but they can at least match up regionally.
04-03-2020 11:40 PM
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Erictelevision Offline
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
I agree! CUSA should become an Eastern conference and the SBC a Western conference.
04-04-2020 01:26 AM
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
(04-04-2020 01:26 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  I agree! CUSA should become an Eastern conference and the SBC a Western conference.

Given that 4 of the 5 members who joined before 2013 are in the west, it should be the other way around. It always strikes me as presumptious when the ODU AD wants the western schools to leave. Marshall joined in 2005 while 4 other eastern schools joined in 2013 or 2014 from the Sun Belt and the other 2 eastern schools joined in 2013 and are former Sun Belt members as well.

Of course 3 of the western members are former Sun Belt teams as well, but only one was part of the 2013 moves.

If a trade could be worked out it might make sense to trade UALR and UTA for football schools so both conferences end up with 12 football schools. (ie UALR, UTA, TX St., AR St., ULM, ULL, USA for Marshall, ODU, UNCC, WKU, MTSU, FAU, FIU).
04-04-2020 09:35 AM
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
(04-03-2020 09:24 PM)46566 Wrote:  
(04-03-2020 07:24 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Not many leagues went unaffected by all the realignment that kicked off in 2010 with the moves of Nebraska and Colorado out of the Big 12. But which ones had the least, or none at all?

By my count, the one that is most obvious is the Ivy League. The SWAC has had no additions or withdrawals since 1999. The MAAC has had very little change.

The one I think is kind of interesting is the MAC. At least in football, since 1997, the MAC added Marshall, Northern Illinois, Buffalo, UCF, Temple, and UMass. But today, the MAC's net result is that only NIU and Buffalo are new since 1996. It has had the least amount of change of all FBS conferences going back not just in the 2010's, but going back 20+ years.

My question is this: why have these leagues had so few changes? Is the lack of change a sign of strength and stability, of weakness and lack of growth, or something else?

For the Ivy the only change may bring in a few Patriot league members. Though the Ivy's the Ivy and probably not going to change. The MAC while compact but the schools really have no where else to go. No one is going to go against the Big Ten.

Allot of conference realignment is location of conference, schools available band conference build. The Big West is split between UC and Cal State schools. WCC schools tend to be tied a religion. I think the summit is built around the Dakota schools now.

Who has the academic weight to join the Ivy League from the Patriot League?

I would think only Duke, Northwestern, Carnige Mellon, and Case-Western could pass the bar for a sniff by the Ivy League and even then, the Ivies need no money so why would they expand?
04-04-2020 01:40 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
(04-04-2020 01:40 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(04-03-2020 09:24 PM)46566 Wrote:  
(04-03-2020 07:24 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Not many leagues went unaffected by all the realignment that kicked off in 2010 with the moves of Nebraska and Colorado out of the Big 12. But which ones had the least, or none at all?

By my count, the one that is most obvious is the Ivy League. The SWAC has had no additions or withdrawals since 1999. The MAAC has had very little change.

The one I think is kind of interesting is the MAC. At least in football, since 1997, the MAC added Marshall, Northern Illinois, Buffalo, UCF, Temple, and UMass. But today, the MAC's net result is that only NIU and Buffalo are new since 1996. It has had the least amount of change of all FBS conferences going back not just in the 2010's, but going back 20+ years.

My question is this: why have these leagues had so few changes? Is the lack of change a sign of strength and stability, of weakness and lack of growth, or something else?

For the Ivy the only change may bring in a few Patriot league members. Though the Ivy's the Ivy and probably not going to change. The MAC while compact but the schools really have no where else to go. No one is going to go against the Big Ten.

Allot of conference realignment is location of conference, schools available band conference build. The Big West is split between UC and Cal State schools. WCC schools tend to be tied a religion. I think the summit is built around the Dakota schools now.

Who has the academic weight to join the Ivy League from the Patriot League?

I would think only Duke, Northwestern, Carnige Mellon, and Case-Western could pass the bar for a sniff by the Ivy League and even then, the Ivies need no money so why would they expand?

I'd add U of Chicago and John's Hopkins to that list.

Edit: Stanford, too.
(This post was last modified: 04-04-2020 02:55 PM by Michael in Raleigh.)
04-04-2020 02:52 PM
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
If D3 falls apart with many schools shutting down for good? I could see the Ivy League grab all the AAU D3 schools to join them.
MIT
Chicago
Washington, MO.
Johns Hopkins
Case Western
Emory
Carnegie Mellon
Brandeis
NYU
Rochester
CalTech
Catholic U.
Clark U.

Then they can grab Boston U.
04-04-2020 03:21 PM
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
(04-04-2020 01:40 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(04-03-2020 09:24 PM)46566 Wrote:  
(04-03-2020 07:24 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Not many leagues went unaffected by all the realignment that kicked off in 2010 with the moves of Nebraska and Colorado out of the Big 12. But which ones had the least, or none at all?

By my count, the one that is most obvious is the Ivy League. The SWAC has had no additions or withdrawals since 1999. The MAAC has had very little change.

The one I think is kind of interesting is the MAC. At least in football, since 1997, the MAC added Marshall, Northern Illinois, Buffalo, UCF, Temple, and UMass. But today, the MAC's net result is that only NIU and Buffalo are new since 1996. It has had the least amount of change of all FBS conferences going back not just in the 2010's, but going back 20+ years.

My question is this: why have these leagues had so few changes? Is the lack of change a sign of strength and stability, of weakness and lack of growth, or something else?

For the Ivy the only change may bring in a few Patriot league members. Though the Ivy's the Ivy and probably not going to change. The MAC while compact but the schools really have no where else to go. No one is going to go against the Big Ten.

Allot of conference realignment is location of conference, schools available band conference build. The Big West is split between UC and Cal State schools. WCC schools tend to be tied a religion. I think the summit is built around the Dakota schools now.

Who has the academic weight to join the Ivy League from the Patriot League?

I would think only Duke, Northwestern, Carnige Mellon, and Case-Western could pass the bar for a sniff by the Ivy League and even then, the Ivies need no money so why would they expand?

MIT and Johns Hopkins.
04-04-2020 04:19 PM
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
(04-04-2020 02:52 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(04-04-2020 01:40 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(04-03-2020 09:24 PM)46566 Wrote:  
(04-03-2020 07:24 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Not many leagues went unaffected by all the realignment that kicked off in 2010 with the moves of Nebraska and Colorado out of the Big 12. But which ones had the least, or none at all?

By my count, the one that is most obvious is the Ivy League. The SWAC has had no additions or withdrawals since 1999. The MAAC has had very little change.

The one I think is kind of interesting is the MAC. At least in football, since 1997, the MAC added Marshall, Northern Illinois, Buffalo, UCF, Temple, and UMass. But today, the MAC's net result is that only NIU and Buffalo are new since 1996. It has had the least amount of change of all FBS conferences going back not just in the 2010's, but going back 20+ years.

My question is this: why have these leagues had so few changes? Is the lack of change a sign of strength and stability, of weakness and lack of growth, or something else?

For the Ivy the only change may bring in a few Patriot league members. Though the Ivy's the Ivy and probably not going to change. The MAC while compact but the schools really have no where else to go. No one is going to go against the Big Ten.

Allot of conference realignment is location of conference, schools available band conference build. The Big West is split between UC and Cal State schools. WCC schools tend to be tied a religion. I think the summit is built around the Dakota schools now.

Who has the academic weight to join the Ivy League from the Patriot League?

I would think only Duke, Northwestern, Carnige Mellon, and Case-Western could pass the bar for a sniff by the Ivy League and even then, the Ivies need no money so why would they expand?

I'd add U of Chicago and John's Hopkins to that list.

Edit: Stanford, too.

Yes. Several members of Div. III UAA-Chicago, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon who have been mentioned plus probably Washington U. St. Louis and Emory. Other 3 UAA members not quite there-Rochester, NYU and Brandeis. Patriot League schools also not quite there.
04-04-2020 04:25 PM
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
(04-03-2020 08:48 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(04-03-2020 07:34 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  For the MAC, no one has a better option. Buffalo (SUNY, academics, market) probably should’ve been a Big East member but they were way late to the game due to administrative decisions made decades ago. The other 11 are in their natural home. The 12th-most natural member is Marshall, but they hit the CUSA lottery in its heyday back when markets weren’t as emphasized. They fit better in the MAC than today’s CUSA but presidents don’t make lateral moves.

You've had 3 G level conferences covering the south and 2 in the west, but only one in the midwest. Also, these are similar institutions.

That's a very good point. If the Missouri Valley weren't demoted in the seventies/eighties you can see an alternate history where the MVC and the core schools at the time (such as Tulsa, SIU, Drake) and added around that era (Illinois State, Northern Iowa) plus other current midwestern FCS schools (Youngstown, NDSU) all made up a MAC-level conference. Though it'd probably result in a lot of dynamics similar to what we've seen between the C-USA and Sun Belt lately.
04-04-2020 05:54 PM
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
Thanks bullet for correcting my geography mistake. :)
04-04-2020 10:48 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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RE: Conferences LEAST changed by 2010's realignment
(04-04-2020 09:35 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(04-04-2020 01:26 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  I agree! CUSA should become an Eastern conference and the SBC a Western conference.

Given that 4 of the 5 members who joined before 2013 are in the west, it should be the other way around. It always strikes me as presumptious when the ODU AD wants the western schools to leave. Marshall joined in 2005 while 4 other eastern schools joined in 2013 or 2014 from the Sun Belt and the other 2 eastern schools joined in 2013 and are former Sun Belt members as well.

Of course 3 of the western members are former Sun Belt teams as well, but only one was part of the 2013 moves.

If a trade could be worked out it might make sense to trade UALR and UTA for football schools so both conferences end up with 12 football schools. (ie UALR, UTA, TX St., AR St., ULM, ULL, USA for Marshall, ODU, UNCC, WKU, MTSU, FAU, FIU).

Did the ODU AD say he wants CUSA west members to leave, or that he wants the league to just reorganize? There is a difference.
04-04-2020 10:53 PM
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