I'm curious on why more conferences do not try to develop conference challenges? Basically have it similar to the ACC-Big Ten challenge. Some challenges would make sense like the MEAC-SWAC challenge as it would give either conference a D1 home game during the non conference.

I guess the main challenge for creating one is picking a conference to play. Does a conference pick a conference with overlapping recruiting areas or adjacent conferences to maximize recruiting. I would think that the PAC 12 is out of luck looking at conferences to pick from as the best choices are either the MWC or the WCC.

I'm curious on what you guys think about more challenges and which conference challenges do you want to see? Would the Mountain West play either the Big Sky or Big West? Though I'd prefer a Mountain West vs WCC. You could have the Summit vs Big Sky. The America East vs the MAAC.

The major challenges:
ACC (14/15) vs. SEC (14/14)
Big 12 (10/10) vs. Pac-12 (10/12)
Big East (11/11) vs. Big Ten (11/14)

Plus the leftovers:
ACC (1/15) vs. Big Ten (1/14)
Big Ten (2/14) vs. Pac-12 (2/12)

Most matchups would rotate.

(04-02-2020 11:00 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  The major challenges:
ACC (14/15) vs. SEC (14/14)
Big 12 (10/10) vs. Pac-12 (10/12)
Big East (11/11) vs. Big Ten (11/14)

Plus the leftovers:
ACC (1/15) vs. Big Ten (1/14)
Big Ten (2/14) vs. Pac-12 (2/12)

Most matchups would rotate.

There's nothing wrong with the ACC-Big Ten and SEC-Big 12 Challenges right now or the Gavitt Games. The Big Ten is a better conference from top to bottom than the SEC over the past 10 years and the past 20 years. Take Kentucky out of the SEC and they're pathetic (Florida's been good but after that?)

https://www.bloggingthebracket.com/2019/...tournament

The Big Ten already has two conference challenges (ACC and Big East/Gavitt) and so does the Big East and Big 12 since the two conferences started a challenge last season (By the way, Big East 8, Big 12 2, it was a mismatch!). The ACC and SEC certainly can schedule a second one and the top five men's basketball conferences would each have two major conference challenges (ACC would have Big Ten and SEC and SEC would have ACC and Big 12).

As for the Pathetic 12, no one wants to play them. Maybe if the Pathetic 12 agreed to play all their games on the road or only the California schools got to host. What school outside of the West Coast is going to want to travel to Pullman or Corvallis?

(04-03-2020 06:30 AM)schmolik Wrote:  There's nothing wrong with the ACC-Big Ten and SEC-Big 12 Challenges right now or the Gavitt Games. The Big Ten is a better conference from top to bottom than the SEC over the past 10 years and the past 20 years. Take Kentucky out of the SEC and they're pathetic (Florida's been good but after that?)

Agree about there being nothing wrong with the ACC/B1G and SEC/B12 Challenges, but what's the point of comparing the B1G and SEC disparagingly? Anyway, looking at conference RPI the past 5 years, we get:

Year ..... B1G ..... SEC

2020 ...... 5 ....... 4
2019 ...... 4 ....... 3
2018 ...... 6 ....... 4
2017 ...... 4 ....... 5
2016 ...... 5 ....... 6

That's pretty close, not much difference. Now true, if we push it back to 10 years, it gets bad - not because the B1G was much better, but because the SEC was much worse. The SEC has upped its hoops game the past five years.

Also, its funny you mention 20 years, as by happenstance, today (April 3) is the 20th Anniversary of Michigan State (B1G) defeating Florida (SEC) for the 2000 national title.

That's also the last time the B1G has won the title, so we're now at 20 years and counting, a full "Score" of years as President Lincoln once put it, since the Mighty B1G cut down the nets.

Yes, I know the national title isn't a good measure of conference strength but it is something. 20 years .... wow.

Existing ones that I know of:

B1G/ACC
B1G/Big East
Big East/Big 12
Big 12/SEC

Does the Mountain West/Missouri Valley Challenge still exist?

I can't think of a fitting challenge for the Pac-12. I read once that the [new] Big East tried to get one started with them, but Arizona and UCLA (Pac-12's biggest brands) didn't want to participate, so negotiations broke down.

I think any of these would be good ones:

MVC vs. A-10
MVC vs. SoCon
MVC vs. MAC
A-10 vs. SoCon
C-USA vs. Sun Belt
MAC vs. Horizon
Horizon vs. Summit
WCC vs. Mountain West

(04-03-2020 06:53 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 06:30 AM)schmolik Wrote:  There's nothing wrong with the ACC-Big Ten and SEC-Big 12 Challenges right now or the Gavitt Games. The Big Ten is a better conference from top to bottom than the SEC over the past 10 years and the past 20 years. Take Kentucky out of the SEC and they're pathetic (Florida's been good but after that?)

Agree about there being nothing wrong with the ACC/B1G and SEC/B12 Challenges, but what's the point of comparing the B1G and SEC disparagingly? Anyway, looking at conference RPI the past 5 years, we get:

Year ..... B1G ..... SEC

2020 ...... 5 ....... 4
2019 ...... 4 ....... 3
2018 ...... 6 ....... 4
2017 ...... 4 ....... 5
2016 ...... 5 ....... 6

That's pretty close, not much difference. Now true, if we push it back to 10 years, it gets bad - not because the B1G was much better, but because the SEC was much worse. The SEC has upped its hoops game the past five years.

Also, its funny you mention 20 years, as by happenstance, today (April 3) is the 20th Anniversary of Michigan State (B1G) defeating Florida (SEC) for the 2000 national title.

That's also the last time the B1G has won the title, so we're now at 20 years and counting, a full "Score" of years as President Lincoln once put it, since the Mighty B1G cut down the nets.

Yes, I know the national title isn't a good measure of conference strength but it is something. 20 years .... wow.

Florida's been "good"? If two national championships is only "good", what does that make the B1G?

Of the last 20 national championships, teams then in the ACC won 8 times, the Big East 7, SEC 3, B1G 1 and Big XII 1. Teams currently in the ACC won 9, Big East 5 (3 by UConn and 2 by Villanova), SEC 3, B1G 2 (Michigan St and Maryland) and Big XII 1.

Either way, Quo's point stands. The B1G and the SEC are pretty even. Neither one has bragging rights.

A10 and AAC should have a challenge, as should the MWC/WCC.

Big East has one with the SEC, too, I believe

(04-03-2020 11:32 AM)MU88 Wrote:  Big East has one with the SEC, too, I believe

Had. Ended in 2012.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nc...s/1870243/

(04-03-2020 09:09 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  A10 and AAC should have a challenge, as should the MWC/WCC.

Good ideas.

(04-03-2020 08:07 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Existing ones that I know of:

B1G/ACC
B1G/Big East
Big East/Big 12
Big 12/SEC

Does the Mountain West/Missouri Valley Challenge still exist?

I can't think of a fitting challenge for the Pac-12. I read once that the [new] Big East tried to get one started with them, but Arizona and UCLA (Pac-12's biggest brands) didn't want to participate, so negotiations broke down.

I think any of these would be good ones:

MVC vs. A-10
MVC vs. SoCon
MVC vs. MAC
A-10 vs. SoCon
C-USA vs. Sun Belt
MAC vs. Horizon
Horizon vs. Summit
WCC vs. Mountain West

Mountain West/A-10 challenge starts this season:

Tuesday, Dec. 1, 2020
Utah State at Davidson

Wednesday, Dec. 2, 2020
UNLV at VCU
St. Bonaventure at New Mexico

Saturday, Dec. 5, 2020
San Diego State at Saint Louis
George Mason at Fresno State
Boise State at Rhode Island
Air Force at Saint Joseph’s
Richmond at Colorado State
Duquesne at Wyoming

Sunday, Dec. 6, 2020
Dayton at Nevada

There's supposed to be some sort of scheduling alliance between CUSA, the Horizon and the Sun Belt but I've not heard anything about that in a minute.

Pac-12 was not terrible last year, in fact they were on target to getting 6 schools in the tourney, outside shot at 7. They continue to produce NBA players at a greater rate than all other conferences on a per school basic except the ACC. (My son says they have suffered from a combination of weak coaching and too many one and done players, not enough quality stay in school guys, which the B1G and ACC have more of).

The problem the Paxc-12 faces is distance. Ohio and North Carolina are three time zones away from the West Coast, Illinois and Texas are two time zones away, and all are long flights (add 3-4 hours in the air for a round trip compared to playing Eastern and Central Time zones).

The other problem the P12 has is lack of depth for other competition. Only 19% of the population lives in the Western two time zones, so the only two conferences with any talent (MWC and WCC) are pretty thin, a couple good teams at the top and not much depth. So there really isn't anyone to play in a challenge.

The best solution for the P12 and the West region might be a couple mid-season Invitational Tournaments to bring in the likes of Gonzaga, BYU, San Diego State, and some other Western schools along with perhaps some Central time schools to give P12 schools a challenge and break from the conference schedule.

(04-03-2020 12:31 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Pac-12 was not terrible last year, in fact they were on target to getting 6 schools in the tourney, outside shot at 7. They continue to produce NBA players at a greater rate than all other conferences on a per school basic except the ACC. (My son says they have suffered from a combination of weak coaching and too many one and done players, not enough quality stay in school guys, which the B1G and ACC have more of).

The problem the Paxc-12 faces is distance. Ohio and North Carolina are three time zones away from the West Coast, Illinois and Texas are two time zones away, and all are long flights (add 3-4 hours in the air for a round trip compared to playing Eastern and Central Time zones).

The other problem the P12 has is lack f depth for other competition. Only 19% of the population lives in the Western two time zones, so he only two conferences with any talent (MWC and WCC) are pretty thin, a couple good teams at the top and not much depth. So there really isn't anyone to play in a challenge.

The best solution for the P12 and the West region might be a couple mid-season Invitational Tournaments to bring in the likes of Gonzaga, BYU, San Diego State, and some other Western schools along with perhaps some Central time schools to give P12 schools a challenge and break from the conference schedule.

Maybe in San Diego or Ontario (citizens bank arena) call it the SoCal classic or something. I would give each Western conference a slot tell the tournament reaches 8.
PAC 12
Big West
Big Sky
WAC
WCC
MWC
2 invited teams
I

(04-03-2020 12:19 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 08:07 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Existing ones that I know of:

B1G/ACC
B1G/Big East
Big East/Big 12
Big 12/SEC

Does the Mountain West/Missouri Valley Challenge still exist?

I can't think of a fitting challenge for the Pac-12. I read once that the [new] Big East tried to get one started with them, but Arizona and UCLA (Pac-12's biggest brands) didn't want to participate, so negotiations broke down.

I think any of these would be good ones:

MVC vs. A-10
MVC vs. SoCon
MVC vs. MAC
A-10 vs. SoCon
C-USA vs. Sun Belt
MAC vs. Horizon
Horizon vs. Summit
WCC vs. Mountain West

Mountain West/A-10 challenge starts this season:

Tuesday, Dec. 1, 2020
Utah State at Davidson

Wednesday, Dec. 2, 2020
UNLV at VCU
St. Bonaventure at New Mexico

Saturday, Dec. 5, 2020
San Diego State at Saint Louis
George Mason at Fresno State
Boise State at Rhode Island
Air Force at Saint Joseph’s
Richmond at Colorado State
Duquesne at Wyoming

Sunday, Dec. 6, 2020
Dayton at Nevada

There's supposed to be some sort of scheduling alliance between CUSA, the Horizon and the Sun Belt but I've not heard anything about that in a minute.

That MWC/A-10 challenge is interesting. I would have pegged a different alignment, but good info.

I have not heard anything about the C-USA/Sun Belt/Horizon scheduling agreement. This past season, Appalachian played no one from the Horizon and only Charlotte from C-USA. I think the Charlotte game had next to nothing to do with the scheduling alliance and more to so with a shared history of playing each other and geographic proximity.

A full set of challenges across all 6 basketball power conferences. Each conference plays every other conference at least once. The pairings with asterisks (*) are notable for their rivalry history or potential and comprise half of the total. Most of the other pairings are arbitrary and could probably rotate.

ACC vs. Big 12 (1): Virginia Tech/West Virginia*
ACC vs. Big East (2): Boston College/Providence*, Syracuse/Georgetown*
ACC vs. Big Ten (2): Pittsburgh/Penn State*, Virginia/Maryland*
ACC vs. Pac-12 (1): Notre Dame/USC*
ACC vs. SEC (9): Clemson/South Carolina*, Duke/Auburn, Florida State/Florida*, Georgia Tech/Georgia*, Louisville/Kentucky*, Miami-FL/Ole Miss, NC State/Alabama, North Carolina/Tennessee, Wake Forest/Vanderbilt
Big 12 vs. Big East (1): Texas Tech/Villanova
Big 12 vs. Big Ten (1): Iowa State/Iowa*
Big 12 vs. Pac-12 (5): Baylor/Washington State, Kansas State/Arizona State, Oklahoma/Oregon, Oklahoma State/Oregon State, TCU/Washington
Big 12 vs. SEC (2): Kansas/Missouri*, Texas/Texas A&M*
Big East vs. Big Ten (6): Butler/Indiana*, Creighton/Minnesota, DePaul/Northwestern*, Marquette/Wisconsin*, Seton Hall/Rutgers*, Xavier/Ohio State*
Big East vs. Pac-12 (1): Connecticut/Utah
Big East vs. SEC (1): St. John's/Arkansas
Big Ten vs. Pac-12 (4): Illinois/California, Michigan/Stanford, Michigan State/UCLA, Nebraska/Colorado*
Big Ten vs. SEC (1): Purdue/Mississippi State
Pac-12 vs. SEC (1): Arizona/LSU

(04-04-2020 12:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  A full set of challenges across all 6 basketball power conferences. Each conference plays every other conference at least once. The pairings with asterisks (*) are notable for their rivalry history or potential and comprise half of the total. Most of the other pairings are arbitrary and could probably rotate.

ACC vs. Big 12 (1): Virginia Tech/West Virginia*
ACC vs. Big East (2): Boston College/Providence*, Syracuse/Georgetown*
ACC vs. Big Ten (2): Pittsburgh/Penn State*, Virginia/Maryland*
ACC vs. Pac-12 (1): Notre Dame/USC*
ACC vs. SEC (9): Clemson/South Carolina*, Duke/Auburn, Florida State/Florida*, Georgia Tech/Georgia*, Louisville/Kentucky*, Miami-FL/Ole Miss, NC State/Alabama, North Carolina/Tennessee, Wake Forest/Vanderbilt
Big 12 vs. Big East (1): Texas Tech/Villanova
Big 12 vs. Big Ten (1): Iowa State/Iowa*
Big 12 vs. Pac-12 (5): Baylor/Washington State, Kansas State/Arizona State, Oklahoma/Oregon, Oklahoma State/Oregon State, TCU/Washington
Big 12 vs. SEC (2): Kansas/Missouri*, Texas/Texas A&M*
Big East vs. Big Ten (6): Butler/Indiana*, Creighton/Minnesota, DePaul/Northwestern*, Marquette/Wisconsin*, Seton Hall/Rutgers*, Xavier/Ohio State*
Big East vs. Pac-12 (1): Connecticut/Utah
Big East vs. SEC (1): St. John's/Arkansas
Big Ten vs. Pac-12 (4): Illinois/California, Michigan/Stanford, Michigan State/UCLA, Nebraska/Colorado*
Big Ten vs. SEC (1): Purdue/Mississippi State
Pac-12 vs. SEC (1): Arizona/LSU

I'm assuming you started with the starred matchups. Unfortunately that leaves Duke and North Carolina with lesser teams because Kentucky and Kansas are taken. I'd probably have matched Duke with Michigan State (they've had a lot of good battles) or Connecticut (1999 National Championship) and North Carolina with Villanova (2016 National Championship, they also played a memorable Sweet 16 game in 2005). Maybe if you match Butler with Purdue then Indiana could play Duke or North Carolina or UConn. I'd like Illinois to play Arizona (2005 Regional Final) although I'm not sure Arizona would want to play Illinois (although Arizona did beat Illinois in the 2001 Regional Final). It's better for them than LSU though.

(04-04-2020 01:27 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(04-04-2020 12:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  A full set of challenges across all 6 basketball power conferences. Each conference plays every other conference at least once. The pairings with asterisks (*) are notable for their rivalry history or potential and comprise half of the total. Most of the other pairings are arbitrary and could probably rotate.

ACC vs. Big 12 (1): Virginia Tech/West Virginia*
ACC vs. Big East (2): Boston College/Providence*, Syracuse/Georgetown*
ACC vs. Big Ten (2): Pittsburgh/Penn State*, Virginia/Maryland*
ACC vs. Pac-12 (1): Notre Dame/USC*
ACC vs. SEC (9): Clemson/South Carolina*, Duke/Auburn, Florida State/Florida*, Georgia Tech/Georgia*, Louisville/Kentucky*, Miami-FL/Ole Miss, NC State/Alabama, North Carolina/Tennessee, Wake Forest/Vanderbilt
Big 12 vs. Big East (1): Texas Tech/Villanova
Big 12 vs. Big Ten (1): Iowa State/Iowa*
Big 12 vs. Pac-12 (5): Baylor/Washington State, Kansas State/Arizona State, Oklahoma/Oregon, Oklahoma State/Oregon State, TCU/Washington
Big 12 vs. SEC (2): Kansas/Missouri*, Texas/Texas A&M*
Big East vs. Big Ten (6): Butler/Indiana*, Creighton/Minnesota, DePaul/Northwestern*, Marquette/Wisconsin*, Seton Hall/Rutgers*, Xavier/Ohio State*
Big East vs. Pac-12 (1): Connecticut/Utah
Big East vs. SEC (1): St. John's/Arkansas
Big Ten vs. Pac-12 (4): Illinois/California, Michigan/Stanford, Michigan State/UCLA, Nebraska/Colorado*
Big Ten vs. SEC (1): Purdue/Mississippi State
Pac-12 vs. SEC (1): Arizona/LSU

I'm assuming you started with the starred matchups. Unfortunately that leaves Duke and North Carolina with lesser teams because Kentucky and Kansas are taken. I'd probably have matched Duke with Michigan State (they've had a lot of good battles) or Connecticut (1999 National Championship) and North Carolina with Villanova (2016 National Championship, they also played a memorable Sweet 16 game in 2005). Maybe if you match Butler with Purdue then Indiana could play Duke or North Carolina or UConn. I'd like Illinois to play Arizona (2005 Regional Final) although I'm not sure Arizona would want to play Illinois (although Arizona did beat Illinois in the 2001 Regional Final). It's better for them than LSU though.

Actually, I started with just trying to get a good number of matchups for each of the conferences while ensuring everyone has an opponent. It's trickier than you might think, especially since they have varying numbers of teams. After that, I tried to pick the best pairings. I can try to tweak it to give Duke, UNC, and Arizona stronger opponents.

How's this? Better?

ACC vs. Big 12 (1): Virginia Tech/West Virginia
ACC vs. Big East (3): Boston College/Providence, North Carolina/Villanova, Syracuse/Georgetown
ACC vs. Big Ten (3): Duke/Michigan State, Pittsburgh/Penn State, Virginia/Maryland
ACC vs. Pac-12 (1): Notre Dame/USC
ACC vs. SEC (7): Clemson/South Carolina, Florida State/Florida, Georgia Tech/Georgia, Louisville/Kentucky, Miami-FL/Alabama, NC State/Ole Miss, Wake Forest/Vanderbilt
Big 12 vs. Big East (1): Kansas State/Creighton
Big 12 vs. Big Ten (1): Iowa State/Iowa
Big 12 vs. Pac-12 (5): Baylor/Washington State, Oklahoma/Oregon, Oklahoma State/Oregon State, TCU/Washington, Texas Tech/Arizona State
Big 12 vs. SEC (2): Kansas/Missouri, Texas/Texas A&M
Big East vs. Big Ten (5): Butler/Purdue, DePaul/Northwestern, Marquette/Wisconsin, Seton Hall/Rutgers, Xavier/Ohio State
Big East vs. Pac-12 (1): Connecticut/UCLA
Big East vs. SEC (1): St. John's/Arkansas
Big Ten vs. Pac-12 (3): Indiana/Arizona, Michigan/Stanford, Nebraska/Colorado
Big Ten vs. SEC (2): Illinois/Tennessee, Minnesota/Mississippi State
Pac-12 vs. SEC (2): California/LSU, Utah/Auburn

(04-04-2020 03:08 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  How's this? Better?

ACC vs. Big 12 (1): Virginia Tech/West Virginia
ACC vs. Big East (3): Boston College/Providence, North Carolina/Villanova, Syracuse/Georgetown
ACC vs. Big Ten (3): Duke/Michigan State, Pittsburgh/Penn State, Virginia/Maryland
ACC vs. Pac-12 (1): Notre Dame/USC
ACC vs. SEC (7): Clemson/South Carolina, Florida State/Florida, Georgia Tech/Georgia, Louisville/Kentucky, Miami-FL/Alabama, NC State/Ole Miss, Wake Forest/Vanderbilt
Big 12 vs. Big East (1): Kansas State/Creighton
Big 12 vs. Big Ten (1): Iowa State/Iowa
Big 12 vs. Pac-12 (5): Baylor/Washington State, Oklahoma/Oregon, Oklahoma State/Oregon State, TCU/Washington, Texas Tech/Arizona State
Big 12 vs. SEC (2): Kansas/Missouri, Texas/Texas A&M
Big East vs. Big Ten (5): Butler/Purdue, DePaul/Northwestern, Marquette/Wisconsin, Seton Hall/Rutgers, Xavier/Ohio State
Big East vs. Pac-12 (1): Connecticut/UCLA
Big East vs. SEC (1): St. John's/Arkansas
Big Ten vs. Pac-12 (3): Indiana/Arizona, Michigan/Stanford, Nebraska/Colorado
Big Ten vs. SEC (2): Illinois/Tennessee, Minnesota/Mississippi State
Pac-12 vs. SEC (2): California/LSU, Utah/Auburn

Yes.