(04-01-2020 04:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-01-2020 11:14 AM)Statefan Wrote:  The ACC had an Orange Bowl tie in from 1954 until 1959 and for the next three years ACC schools played in either the Cotton Bowl or Sugar Bowl. In 1962 the ACC demphasized football, passing the 800 minimum SAT rule. This is what knocked back ACC football and did so for a solid 15 years. Because the ACC left their SoCon records behind, unlike the PCAA, there is a great disconnect regarding the ACC and the football and basketball records of Duke, Clemson, NC State, UNC, and MD as two Rose Bowls, 5 Orange Bowls, a couple of Sugar Bowls, and NCAA and NIT final fours are lost, not to mention MD's National Championship in football.

The SoCon with ACC schools also had a tie in with the Gator Bowl, with Washington and Lee, WF, South Carolina, NC State, MD, Clemson playing in said bowl. This information is also generally lost.

This is what the 800 SAT rule did - the ACC goes from 15 major bowls in 30 years and Duke, MD, and Clemson all taking turns in the top 10 and at the end of the 1962 season Duke refuses the Gator Bowl, finishes 8-2 with a one score loss at Southern Cal and a two score loss at GT, and ranked 14th. For the next decade only NC State in 1967 finished the season ranked in the polls 9-2 with late season losses at Clemson and Penn State. Not until 1972 do ACC programs regularly reappear:

72 - UNC 12, NC State 17,
73 - NCSU, MD 20
74 - NCSU 11, MD 13
75 - MD 13
76 - MD 13
77 - UNC 17, Clemson 19
78 - Clemson 6, NCSU, 18, MD 20

15 years to fully recover from Duke's desire to pull down ACC football.

Clemson's 1981 MNC was viewed as kind of fluky, not the Clemson team, but that an ACC team won. So it took a little longer for the whole conference to really recover.

That's an interesting history. I knew Maryland was a power in the 50s, but remember the ACC as a mezzanine conference growing up in 60s and 70s.

Was it not until Florida State joined in the 90's that the ACC was accepted as a true power conference again, or had that already been achieved when Georgia Tech won a share of the national title in 1990?

If there is a creature more lazy than a sports writer - I have not met them.

In the ACC's case, the lazy sports writer only check records back to 1954, as if the ACC sprung whole cloth from a black hole.

Part of the dearth of information is driven by Carolina's rivalries with Duke, NC State, and MD. UNC was not nearly as successful as they would have like to have been from 1933-1953. This was a time when Duke's football program greatly overshadowed them and NC State's basketball program had overshadowed them for more than a decade. To take SoCon records or to remember the SoCon is to pump up Clemson, MD, and Duke football and to pump up NC State and DUKE basketball. Duke has a hell of a basketball records from 1933-1953. Carolina would just a soon supress that information.

Remember UNC and UVa are the only two schools producing journalists for the south Atlantic area for most of the 20th Century.

Many of the other schools were not image conscious at all, nor committed to a particular image as Carolina had been in the 1940's which is a history lesson for another time.

Imagine five siblings fighting in a small room in a glass house. Because of the overlap and density of Duke, UNC, NC State, WF, and UVa, these five spent years screwing with each other rather than thinking the first thought about how to get a leg up on the SEC or B10. Even Penn State's move was not a full wake up call for UNC and Duke.

(04-01-2020 04:31 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Was it not until Florida State joined in the 90's that the ACC was accepted as a true power conference again, or had that already been achieved when Georgia Tech won a share of the national title in 1990?

Nope, it was FSU that gave ACC football the credibility it needed to ensure inclusion in the just-forming Bowl Alliance. Thanks to FSU, for the first time in decades the champion of the ACC was guaranteed a spot in a major bowl game.

That said, the 1980s were a rough time for all the major conferences, in terms of national titles. If you weren't around then, it's difficult to fathom how dominant the top independents were that decade. Schools like Miami, Penn State, and later Notre Dame were in command. In the 1980s, independents won 6 of the 10 national titles. The major "P" conferences collectively won 3, and two of those were the first two years of the decade, 1980 and 1981. In eight seasons from 1982 - 1989, the only "P" conference team to win the national title was Oklahoma in 1985. The other seven years an independent won the title six times.

And that dominance really was never ended on the field. It ended via co-optation, when Penn State, Miami, and FSU joined the B1G, Big East, and ACC respectively at the dawn of the 1990s.

(04-01-2020 04:31 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(04-01-2020 04:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-01-2020 11:14 AM)Statefan Wrote:  The ACC had an Orange Bowl tie in from 1954 until 1959 and for the next three years ACC schools played in either the Cotton Bowl or Sugar Bowl. In 1962 the ACC demphasized football, passing the 800 minimum SAT rule. This is what knocked back ACC football and did so for a solid 15 years. Because the ACC left their SoCon records behind, unlike the PCAA, there is a great disconnect regarding the ACC and the football and basketball records of Duke, Clemson, NC State, UNC, and MD as two Rose Bowls, 5 Orange Bowls, a couple of Sugar Bowls, and NCAA and NIT final fours are lost, not to mention MD's National Championship in football.

The SoCon with ACC schools also had a tie in with the Gator Bowl, with Washington and Lee, WF, South Carolina, NC State, MD, Clemson playing in said bowl. This information is also generally lost.

This is what the 800 SAT rule did - the ACC goes from 15 major bowls in 30 years and Duke, MD, and Clemson all taking turns in the top 10 and at the end of the 1962 season Duke refuses the Gator Bowl, finishes 8-2 with a one score loss at Southern Cal and a two score loss at GT, and ranked 14th. For the next decade only NC State in 1967 finished the season ranked in the polls 9-2 with late season losses at Clemson and Penn State. Not until 1972 do ACC programs regularly reappear:

72 - UNC 12, NC State 17,
73 - NCSU, MD 20
74 - NCSU 11, MD 13
75 - MD 13
76 - MD 13
77 - UNC 17, Clemson 19
78 - Clemson 6, NCSU, 18, MD 20

15 years to fully recover from Duke's desire to pull down ACC football.

Clemson's 1981 MNC was viewed as kind of fluky, not the Clemson team, but that an ACC team won. So it took a little longer for the whole conference to really recover.

That's an interesting history. I knew Maryland was a power in the 50s, but remember the ACC as a mezzanine conference growing up in 60s and 70s.

Was it not until Florida State joined in the 90's that the ACC was accepted as a true power conference again, or had that already been achieved when Georgia Tech won a share of the national title in 1990?

In general perception it was FSU that did it. In reality, the ACC had probably gotten there by the late 80s. The ACC other than FSU was underrated probably until Virginia Tech got to the BCS title game.

(04-01-2020 07:31 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-01-2020 04:31 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(04-01-2020 04:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-01-2020 11:14 AM)Statefan Wrote:  The ACC had an Orange Bowl tie in from 1954 until 1959 and for the next three years ACC schools played in either the Cotton Bowl or Sugar Bowl. In 1962 the ACC demphasized football, passing the 800 minimum SAT rule. This is what knocked back ACC football and did so for a solid 15 years. Because the ACC left their SoCon records behind, unlike the PCAA, there is a great disconnect regarding the ACC and the football and basketball records of Duke, Clemson, NC State, UNC, and MD as two Rose Bowls, 5 Orange Bowls, a couple of Sugar Bowls, and NCAA and NIT final fours are lost, not to mention MD's National Championship in football.

The SoCon with ACC schools also had a tie in with the Gator Bowl, with Washington and Lee, WF, South Carolina, NC State, MD, Clemson playing in said bowl. This information is also generally lost.

This is what the 800 SAT rule did - the ACC goes from 15 major bowls in 30 years and Duke, MD, and Clemson all taking turns in the top 10 and at the end of the 1962 season Duke refuses the Gator Bowl, finishes 8-2 with a one score loss at Southern Cal and a two score loss at GT, and ranked 14th. For the next decade only NC State in 1967 finished the season ranked in the polls 9-2 with late season losses at Clemson and Penn State. Not until 1972 do ACC programs regularly reappear:

72 - UNC 12, NC State 17,
73 - NCSU, MD 20
74 - NCSU 11, MD 13
75 - MD 13
76 - MD 13
77 - UNC 17, Clemson 19
78 - Clemson 6, NCSU, 18, MD 20

15 years to fully recover from Duke's desire to pull down ACC football.

Clemson's 1981 MNC was viewed as kind of fluky, not the Clemson team, but that an ACC team won. So it took a little longer for the whole conference to really recover.

That's an interesting history. I knew Maryland was a power in the 50s, but remember the ACC as a mezzanine conference growing up in 60s and 70s.

Was it not until Florida State joined in the 90's that the ACC was accepted as a true power conference again, or had that already been achieved when Georgia Tech won a share of the national title in 1990?

In general perception it was FSU that did it. In reality, the ACC had probably gotten there by the late 80s. The ACC other than FSU was underrated probably until Virginia Tech got to the BCS title game.

Virginia Tech went to the title game under the Big East banner. Only Florida St (98, 99, 00, 13) and Clemson (15, 16, 18, 19) have been to the title game under the ACC since the BCS era began. Miami went twice (01, 02) and Virginia Tech (99) went under the Big East.

(04-01-2020 05:08 PM)Statefan Wrote:  If there is a creature more lazy than a sports writer - I have not met them.

In the ACC's case, the lazy sports writer only check records back to 1954, as if the ACC sprung whole cloth from a black hole.

Part of the dearth of information is driven by Carolina's rivalries with Duke, NC State, and MD. UNC was not nearly as successful as they would have like to have been from 1933-1953. This was a time when Duke's football program greatly overshadowed them and NC State's basketball program had overshadowed them for more than a decade. To take SoCon records or to remember the SoCon is to pump up Clemson, MD, and Duke football and to pump up NC State and DUKE basketball. Duke has a hell of a basketball records from 1933-1953. Carolina would just a soon supress that information.

Remember UNC and UVa are the only two schools producing journalists for the south Atlantic area for most of the 20th Century.

Many of the other schools were not image conscious at all, nor committed to a particular image as Carolina had been in the 1940's which is a history lesson for another time.

Imagine five siblings fighting in a small room in a glass house. Because of the overlap and density of Duke, UNC, NC State, WF, and UVa, these five spent years screwing with each other rather than thinking the first thought about how to get a leg up on the SEC or B10. Even Penn State's move was not a full wake up call for UNC and Duke.

Perhaps not for UNC or Duke, but the ACC in general woke up quickly. Gene Corrigan, the ACC commissioner at that time, said that the Penn State move to the B1G caught them completely off guard and that they knew they had to respond. That is when they turned to Florida State.

(04-01-2020 08:22 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(04-01-2020 05:08 PM)Statefan Wrote:  If there is a creature more lazy than a sports writer - I have not met them.

In the ACC's case, the lazy sports writer only check records back to 1954, as if the ACC sprung whole cloth from a black hole.

Part of the dearth of information is driven by Carolina's rivalries with Duke, NC State, and MD. UNC was not nearly as successful as they would have like to have been from 1933-1953. This was a time when Duke's football program greatly overshadowed them and NC State's basketball program had overshadowed them for more than a decade. To take SoCon records or to remember the SoCon is to pump up Clemson, MD, and Duke football and to pump up NC State and DUKE basketball. Duke has a hell of a basketball records from 1933-1953. Carolina would just a soon supress that information.

Remember UNC and UVa are the only two schools producing journalists for the south Atlantic area for most of the 20th Century.

Many of the other schools were not image conscious at all, nor committed to a particular image as Carolina had been in the 1940's which is a history lesson for another time.

Imagine five siblings fighting in a small room in a glass house. Because of the overlap and density of Duke, UNC, NC State, WF, and UVa, these five spent years screwing with each other rather than thinking the first thought about how to get a leg up on the SEC or B10. Even Penn State's move was not a full wake up call for UNC and Duke.

Perhaps not for UNC or Duke, but the ACC in general woke up quickly. Gene Corrigan, the ACC commissioner at that time, said that the Penn State move to the B1G caught them completely off guard and that they knew they had to respond. That is when they turned to Florida State.

UNC and Duke could not have given a rat's ass for Penn State. Penn State was a school in rural Pennsylbama that MD, NC State, and sometimes UVa played in football. MD did not want Penn State in the ACC until MD found out they were going to the B10. It's difficult to expand when certain schools are exercising their blackball.

MD, UVa, and Duke wanted no part of West Virginia
MD wanted no part of Penn State other than an annual football game
UVa did not want VT
UNC, Duke, and NC State did not want Syracuse
UNC and Duke did not want Miami
MD, UNC, and Duke did not want FSU

MD's and UVa's opposition to West Va is/was existential.
UVa's opposition to VT was existential.

The rest of these blackballs could be overcome with money and time.

Corrigan's dream ACC was ND, PSU, UVa, UNC, WF, Duke, NC State, UNC, Clemson, GT, FSU, and Miami. There is no scenario where the ACC gets all four. Three of the four could be gotten. If PSU had been added, the ACC would have balked on FSU long enough for them to go to the SEC, probably with VT. Then you likely end up with Pitt and Syracuse in the B10.