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schmolik Online
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Post: #61
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(03-31-2020 07:35 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:30 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Being a Villanova fan, I would accept ND in the Big East for all sports but football. They're still Notre Dame and have plenty of fans who will watch their men's basketball. Notre Dame might not be ACC level in basketball but they are Big East level. They're within driving distance of Butler, DePaul, Marquette, and Xavier. The women's basketball team had a down year but they are a perennial great team. Plus many Big East universities are Catholic, Notre Dame would fit right in.

This is just dumb. Not only have they done fine in the ACC, but the Big East has been one of the 3 or 4 best conferences in basketball recently. There's no big step down in competition.

Not saying the Big East isn't one of the 3 or 4 best conferences. They're not the ACC. Take Villanova out of the Big East and what do you have left? No one else compares to North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia, not to mention Louisville. Note Dame hasn't made the NCAA's three years in a row (OK, no one made it this year but ND was a longshot this year and in 2019 the Irish were 3-15 in the ACC, dead last).
03-31-2020 08:28 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(03-31-2020 08:28 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 07:35 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:30 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Being a Villanova fan, I would accept ND in the Big East for all sports but football. They're still Notre Dame and have plenty of fans who will watch their men's basketball. Notre Dame might not be ACC level in basketball but they are Big East level. They're within driving distance of Butler, DePaul, Marquette, and Xavier. The women's basketball team had a down year but they are a perennial great team. Plus many Big East universities are Catholic, Notre Dame would fit right in.

This is just dumb. Not only have they done fine in the ACC, but the Big East has been one of the 3 or 4 best conferences in basketball recently. There's no big step down in competition.

Not saying the Big East isn't one of the 3 or 4 best conferences. They're not the ACC. Take Villanova out of the Big East and what do you have left? No one else compares to North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia, not to mention Louisville. Note Dame hasn't made the NCAA's three years in a row (OK, no one made it this year but ND was a longshot this year and in 2019 the Irish were 3-15 in the ACC, dead last).

ND ended up fifth in the ACC, I believe (I didn't look).

Ten other ACC teams finished below them in conference play.

The Irish finished 10-10 in the ACC this season.

I think they are "an ACC team".
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2020 08:35 PM by TerryD.)
03-31-2020 08:33 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(03-31-2020 08:28 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 07:35 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:30 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Being a Villanova fan, I would accept ND in the Big East for all sports but football. They're still Notre Dame and have plenty of fans who will watch their men's basketball. Notre Dame might not be ACC level in basketball but they are Big East level. They're within driving distance of Butler, DePaul, Marquette, and Xavier. The women's basketball team had a down year but they are a perennial great team. Plus many Big East universities are Catholic, Notre Dame would fit right in.

This is just dumb. Not only have they done fine in the ACC, but the Big East has been one of the 3 or 4 best conferences in basketball recently. There's no big step down in competition.

Not saying the Big East isn't one of the 3 or 4 best conferences. They're not the ACC. Take Villanova out of the Big East and what do you have left? No one else compares to North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia, not to mention Louisville. Note Dame hasn't made the NCAA's three years in a row (OK, no one made it this year but ND was a longshot this year and in 2019 the Irish were 3-15 in the ACC, dead last).


As much as I respect the Big East, it is not quite the ACC — if anything because the ACC has more historically Top 20-ish programs than does the Big East (and perhaps more so than any other league, including the Big Ten, for that matter). It's hard to think any other league has an upper tier that can rival that of Duke, Louisville, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Notre Dame (a Top 10 program of all-time in terms of number of wins) and Syracuse. That is a powerhouse Top Six.

Having said that, and as a long-time DePaul fan, if the Big East invited Notre Dame and it accepted, that would be fantastic for both parties. I think ND would enjoy being in the Big East for many reasons. DePaul and ND are located within close geographic proximity. And the Catholic cultural element (as some of you know) means a lot to me (one reason I enjoy following the Big East). I definitely do not think the Big East (as a true power men's basketball league) would be "beneath" Notre Dame.

But I don't ever see it happening.
03-31-2020 10:22 PM
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domer1978 Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(03-31-2020 10:22 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 08:28 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 07:35 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:30 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Being a Villanova fan, I would accept ND in the Big East for all sports but football. They're still Notre Dame and have plenty of fans who will watch their men's basketball. Notre Dame might not be ACC level in basketball but they are Big East level. They're within driving distance of Butler, DePaul, Marquette, and Xavier. The women's basketball team had a down year but they are a perennial great team. Plus many Big East universities are Catholic, Notre Dame would fit right in.

This is just dumb. Not only have they done fine in the ACC, but the Big East has been one of the 3 or 4 best conferences in basketball recently. There's no big step down in competition.

Not saying the Big East isn't one of the 3 or 4 best conferences. They're not the ACC. Take Villanova out of the Big East and what do you have left? No one else compares to North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia, not to mention Louisville. Note Dame hasn't made the NCAA's three years in a row (OK, no one made it this year but ND was a longshot this year and in 2019 the Irish were 3-15 in the ACC, dead last).


As much as I respect the Big East, it is not quite the ACC — if anything because the ACC has more historically Top 20-ish programs than does the Big East (and perhaps more so than any other league, including the Big Ten, for that matter). It's hard to think any other league has an upper tier that can rival that of Duke, Louisville, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Notre Dame (a Top 10 program of all-time in terms of number of wins) and Syracuse. That is a powerhouse Top Six.

Having said that, and as a long-time DePaul fan, if the Big East invited Notre Dame and it accepted, that would be fantastic for both parties. I think ND would enjoy being in the Big East for many reasons. DePaul and ND are located within close geographic proximity. And the Catholic cultural element (as some of you know) means a lot to me (one reason I enjoy following the Big East). I definitely do not think the Big East (as a true power men's basketball league) would be "beneath" Notre Dame.

But I don't ever see it happening.
Definitely not beneath us. Football is the driver and the ACC is a great match for that reason. I loved the old big east and really like the new one. Great league.
03-31-2020 11:38 PM
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Post: #65
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(03-31-2020 05:51 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:10 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 04:35 PM)bullet Wrote:  You're assuming the Big East would invite them. I don't think that's likely.

....and why would you think this?

Maybe because Notre Dame basketball has so little commercial value. Football would add nothing to the Big East. And their hoops would be less valuable overall than most of the Big East product. Notre Dame's athletic value to anyone is their massive value in Football.

And Notre Dame's massive football revenues would give them an enormous advantage in all the non-rev sports. They wouldn't want to invite a school that would spend football money to dominate the non-rev sports.

UConn was added, and their total revenues are nearly $30 million more annually than the #2 overall school (Villanova).

And Notre Dame's are more than double UConn's and none of it is subsidy from the university. Notre Dame has not hesitated to spend on coaches and facilities for the non-rev sports and it shows in their success. The Big East schools would like to win some conference titles in sports other than basketball (where Notre Dame would be a good addition but not dominant). Notre Dame was 9th in the fall Learfield IMG cup. They were 17th last year for the full year. Only Georgetown and Villanova were top 50 and those 2 + St. John's in the top 100 this year. Last year Georgetown 70 and Villanova 76 were the only ones in the top 100 and only 5 were even in the top 150.
03-31-2020 11:45 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(03-31-2020 11:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:51 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:10 PM)Bogg Wrote:  ....and why would you think this?

Maybe because Notre Dame basketball has so little commercial value. Football would add nothing to the Big East. And their hoops would be less valuable overall than most of the Big East product. Notre Dame's athletic value to anyone is their massive value in Football.

And Notre Dame's massive football revenues would give them an enormous advantage in all the non-rev sports. They wouldn't want to invite a school that would spend football money to dominate the non-rev sports.

UConn was added, and their total revenues are nearly $30 million more annually than the #2 overall school (Villanova).

And Notre Dame's are more than double UConn's and none of it is subsidy from the university. Notre Dame has not hesitated to spend on coaches and facilities for the non-rev sports and it shows in their success. The Big East schools would like to win some conference titles in sports other than basketball (where Notre Dame would be a good addition but not dominant). Notre Dame was 9th in the fall Learfield IMG cup. They were 17th last year for the full year. Only Georgetown and Villanova were top 50 and those 2 + St. John's in the top 100 this year. Last year Georgetown 70 and Villanova 76 were the only ones in the top 100 and only 5 were even in the top 150.

Agree, with one comment.

ND doesn't use athletic revenues to build facilities.

It waits until it has enough donations for that purpose before building them.

Those facilities are donor funded.

The lead donors' information for each facility is listed in the name and at the bottom of each facility description in the link below.


https://und.com/facilities/
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2020 12:49 AM by TerryD.)
04-01-2020 12:42 AM
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ChrisLords Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Notre Dame in conference
As far as ND to a conference thread's go, I only skim through them now and look for Terry's posts. If I ever see Terry say 'maybe' or 'yeah, we would do that' I'll read what the scenario was, but that's not likely to happen.
04-01-2020 02:06 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(03-31-2020 11:38 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 10:22 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 08:28 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 07:35 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:30 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Being a Villanova fan, I would accept ND in the Big East for all sports but football. They're still Notre Dame and have plenty of fans who will watch their men's basketball. Notre Dame might not be ACC level in basketball but they are Big East level. They're within driving distance of Butler, DePaul, Marquette, and Xavier. The women's basketball team had a down year but they are a perennial great team. Plus many Big East universities are Catholic, Notre Dame would fit right in.

This is just dumb. Not only have they done fine in the ACC, but the Big East has been one of the 3 or 4 best conferences in basketball recently. There's no big step down in competition.

Not saying the Big East isn't one of the 3 or 4 best conferences. They're not the ACC. Take Villanova out of the Big East and what do you have left? No one else compares to North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia, not to mention Louisville. Note Dame hasn't made the NCAA's three years in a row (OK, no one made it this year but ND was a longshot this year and in 2019 the Irish were 3-15 in the ACC, dead last).


As much as I respect the Big East, it is not quite the ACC — if anything because the ACC has more historically Top 20-ish programs than does the Big East (and perhaps more so than any other league, including the Big Ten, for that matter). It's hard to think any other league has an upper tier that can rival that of Duke, Louisville, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Notre Dame (a Top 10 program of all-time in terms of number of wins) and Syracuse. That is a powerhouse Top Six.

Having said that, and as a long-time DePaul fan, if the Big East invited Notre Dame and it accepted, that would be fantastic for both parties. I think ND would enjoy being in the Big East for many reasons. DePaul and ND are located within close geographic proximity. And the Catholic cultural element (as some of you know) means a lot to me (one reason I enjoy following the Big East). I definitely do not think the Big East (as a true power men's basketball league) would be "beneath" Notre Dame.

But I don't ever see it happening.
Definitely not beneath us. Football is the driver and the ACC is a great match for that reason. I loved the old big east and really like the new one. Great league.


Agree. If ND is to be in a league for all sports but football — the ACC is the perfect fit. As a UNC fan, I like having Notre Dame in the conference. And I fully understand why ND wants to stay indy in football.
04-01-2020 07:45 AM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(03-31-2020 11:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:51 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:10 PM)Bogg Wrote:  ....and why would you think this?

Maybe because Notre Dame basketball has so little commercial value. Football would add nothing to the Big East. And their hoops would be less valuable overall than most of the Big East product. Notre Dame's athletic value to anyone is their massive value in Football.

And Notre Dame's massive football revenues would give them an enormous advantage in all the non-rev sports. They wouldn't want to invite a school that would spend football money to dominate the non-rev sports.

UConn was added, and their total revenues are nearly $30 million more annually than the #2 overall school (Villanova).

And Notre Dame's are more than double UConn's and none of it is subsidy from the university. Notre Dame has not hesitated to spend on coaches and facilities for the non-rev sports and it shows in their success. The Big East schools would like to win some conference titles in sports other than basketball (where Notre Dame would be a good addition but not dominant). Notre Dame was 9th in the fall Learfield IMG cup. They were 17th last year for the full year. Only Georgetown and Villanova were top 50 and those 2 + St. John's in the top 100 this year. Last year Georgetown 70 and Villanova 76 were the only ones in the top 100 and only 5 were even in the top 150.

I don't know what else to tell you other than you're pretty clearly wrong on this one. Softball isn't going to be a consideration in future expansion one way or the other.

(03-31-2020 08:28 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Not saying the Big East isn't one of the 3 or 4 best conferences. They're not the ACC. Take Villanova out of the Big East and what do you have left? No one else compares to North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia, not to mention Louisville. Note Dame hasn't made the NCAA's three years in a row (OK, no one made it this year but ND was a longshot this year and in 2019 the Irish were 3-15 in the ACC, dead last).

By my count Notre Dame's 64-64 in conference play since joining the ACC. They've been perfectly fine in their new conference and they'd be a good-not-great Big East team.
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2020 08:16 AM by Bogg.)
04-01-2020 08:11 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(03-31-2020 08:28 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Take Villanova out of the Big East and what do you have left? No one else compares to North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia, not to mention Louisville.

Historically speaking, Georgetown and St. John's were/could be considered top 25 programs. UConn has probably surpassed both in the last 20 years.

I would say UNC and Duke are top 5 all-time.

Virginia, Louisville, Villanova, and UConn are top 25 all-time. Georgetown used to be a force and is currently on the outskirts, but with a few tourney appearances would be back in. St. John's–although a dominant program in the 80's–hasn't won a national title, if I recall correctly.
04-01-2020 08:44 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(04-01-2020 02:06 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  As far as ND to a conference thread's go, I only skim through them now and look for Terry's posts. If I ever see Terry say 'maybe' or 'yeah, we would do that' I'll read what the scenario was, but that's not likely to happen.

ND football will join a conference in ten minutes if a P4/champs only playoff system is legally established.

ND may join a conference after 2036, who knows?

But, I think two things stick out that may explain why ND football doesn't jump at a chance to join the Big Ten or ACC.

1) ND is sixth in the country in revenues at $169 million a year with a lower TV deal and conference payout than any P5 school in the country.

2) ND builds all of its facilities with donor money, not athletic revenues.

(Some of those big donors sometimes threaten to withhold their donations if ND football joins a conference)

So, ND is doing well and keeping up with the arms race without a big TV/conference deal.

It uses athletic revenues to fully fund 26 sports programs and still sends about $23 million a year to the academic side of the university.

It uses no money from the university and no subsidies/student fees to fund athletics.

Their programs travel all over the country. Travel costs are no big deal to ND. ND wants to travel long distances to play sports and doesn't really want regional rivalries.

So, it is competing at the highest level and returning a big profit, building lots of athletic facilities, sending its teams all over the country and paying coaches without football being in a conference.

IF ND joined the Big Ten in all sports and got a $25 million a year or so pay increase, it would be competing with Texas for the most revenues in the country.

To ND, being #6 and being a football independent is good enough.

ND has always known how to make money. Even with the Big Ten/SEC big TV pay raises, ND thinks it can hold its own.

ND may be well insulated from the financial pressures that many think will force ND football into a conference.


When discussing one of a hundred "This may force ND into a conference" threads, keep these things in mind.
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2020 09:09 AM by TerryD.)
04-01-2020 08:49 AM
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domer1978 Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(04-01-2020 08:49 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(04-01-2020 02:06 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  As far as ND to a conference thread's go, I only skim through them now and look for Terry's posts. If I ever see Terry say 'maybe' or 'yeah, we would do that' I'll read what the scenario was, but that's not likely to happen.

ND football will join a conference in ten minutes if a P4/champs only playoff system is legally established.

ND may join a conference after 2036, who knows?

But, I think two things stick out that may explain why ND football doesn't jump at a chance to join the Big Ten or ACC.

1) ND is sixth in the country in revenues at $169 million a year with a lower TV deal and conference payout than any P5 school in the country.

2) ND builds all of its facilities with donor money, not athletic revenues.

(Some of those big donors sometimes threaten to withhold their donations if ND football joins a conference)

So, ND is doing well and keeping up with the arms race without a big TV/conference deal.

It uses athletic revenues to fully fund 26 sports programs and still sends about $23 million a year to the academic side of the university.

It uses no money from the university and no subsidies/student fees to fund athletics.

Their programs travel all over the country. Travel costs are no big deal to ND. ND wants to travel long distances to play sports and doesn't really want regional rivalries.

So, it is competing at the highest level and returning a big profit, building lots of athletic facilities, sending its teams all over the country and paying coaches without football being in a conference.

IF ND joined the Big Ten in all sports and got a $25 million a year or so pay increase, it would be competing with Texas for the most revenues in the country.

To ND, being #6 and being a football independent is good enough.

ND has always known how to make money. Even with the Big Ten/SEC big TV pay raises, ND thinks it can hold its own.

ND may be well insulated from the financial pressures that many think will force ND football into a conference.


When discussing one of a hundred "This may force ND into a conference" threads, keep these things in mind.
Hundred? You must only mean this website. Thousands of threads on this exact topic pop up on boards everywhere. Some are interesting, others just nuts. This thread was interesting at least.
04-01-2020 09:15 AM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(04-01-2020 08:44 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 08:28 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Take Villanova out of the Big East and what do you have left? No one else compares to North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia, not to mention Louisville.

Historically speaking, Georgetown and St. John's were/could be considered top 25 programs. UConn has probably surpassed both in the last 20 years.

I would say UNC and Duke are top 5 all-time.

Virginia, Louisville, Villanova, and UConn are top 25 all-time. Georgetown used to be a force and is currently on the outskirts, but with a few tourney appearances would be back in. St. John's–although a dominant program in the 80's–hasn't won a national title, if I recall correctly.

Yea, I'm not trying to turn this into some ACC vs Big East thing, just pointing out that either way you're talking about two of the top couple basketball leagues in the country. Notre Dame's a middle- to upper-middle-tier basketball program in either conference. It makes no sense to say they're not ACC quality but could manage in the Big East.
04-01-2020 09:39 AM
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Post: #74
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(04-01-2020 12:42 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 11:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:51 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Maybe because Notre Dame basketball has so little commercial value. Football would add nothing to the Big East. And their hoops would be less valuable overall than most of the Big East product. Notre Dame's athletic value to anyone is their massive value in Football.

And Notre Dame's massive football revenues would give them an enormous advantage in all the non-rev sports. They wouldn't want to invite a school that would spend football money to dominate the non-rev sports.

UConn was added, and their total revenues are nearly $30 million more annually than the #2 overall school (Villanova).

And Notre Dame's are more than double UConn's and none of it is subsidy from the university. Notre Dame has not hesitated to spend on coaches and facilities for the non-rev sports and it shows in their success. The Big East schools would like to win some conference titles in sports other than basketball (where Notre Dame would be a good addition but not dominant). Notre Dame was 9th in the fall Learfield IMG cup. They were 17th last year for the full year. Only Georgetown and Villanova were top 50 and those 2 + St. John's in the top 100 this year. Last year Georgetown 70 and Villanova 76 were the only ones in the top 100 and only 5 were even in the top 150.

Agree, with one comment.

ND doesn't use athletic revenues to build facilities.

It waits until it has enough donations for that purpose before building them.

Those facilities are donor funded.

The lead donors' information for each facility is listed in the name and at the bottom of each facility description in the link below.


https://und.com/facilities/

I was considering donor money as part of "football revenue." Athletic donations are driven by Notre Dame's football history.
04-01-2020 09:57 AM
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Post: #75
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(04-01-2020 08:11 AM)Bogg Wrote:  By my count Notre Dame's 64-64 in conference play since joining the ACC. They've been perfectly fine in their new conference and they'd be a good-not-great Big East team.

21-35 in the last 3 seasons.

(04-01-2020 09:39 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-01-2020 08:44 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 08:28 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Take Villanova out of the Big East and what do you have left? No one else compares to North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia, not to mention Louisville.

Historically speaking, Georgetown and St. John's were/could be considered top 25 programs. UConn has probably surpassed both in the last 20 years.

I would say UNC and Duke are top 5 all-time.

Virginia, Louisville, Villanova, and UConn are top 25 all-time. Georgetown used to be a force and is currently on the outskirts, but with a few tourney appearances would be back in. St. John's–although a dominant program in the 80's–hasn't won a national title, if I recall correctly.

Yea, I'm not trying to turn this into some ACC vs Big East thing, just pointing out that either way you're talking about two of the top couple basketball leagues in the country. Notre Dame's a middle- to upper-middle-tier basketball program in either conference. It makes no sense to say they're not ACC quality but could manage in the Big East.

The ACC is #1 by many people in college basketball. North Carolina had a bad season but are a blue blood and are three years removed from a national championship. I'm a Villanova fan and they have won two national championships since 2016 but I'm not going to say they are Duke or North Carolina on a consistent level. We'll win the Big East most years. You give us 10 years in the ACC and we'll be lucky to win the regular season once. It's not a coincidence that Villanova went from being a mediocre team to dominating the Big East once Syracuse, UConn, and Louisville left. Notre Dame isn't the only team that isn't as good in men's basketball since they moved from the Big East to the ACC. Pitt's basically irrelevant (although that's more to do with Jamie Dixon leaving). Syracuse is a .500 team in the ACC. They weren't in the Big East. Louisville's the only one Big East team that has adjusted to the higher level of the ACC. Five ACC teams made last year's Sweet 16. Only four of the ten Big East teams have made the Sweet 16 since 2010, four of them haven't made the Sweet 16 since 2000 (EVERY ACC team has).

I'm not saying the Big East isn't a top basketball conference, they're just not the ACC. That's OK, no one is.
04-01-2020 10:17 AM
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Post: #76
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(04-01-2020 09:57 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(04-01-2020 12:42 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 11:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:51 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 05:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  And Notre Dame's massive football revenues would give them an enormous advantage in all the non-rev sports. They wouldn't want to invite a school that would spend football money to dominate the non-rev sports.

UConn was added, and their total revenues are nearly $30 million more annually than the #2 overall school (Villanova).

And Notre Dame's are more than double UConn's and none of it is subsidy from the university. Notre Dame has not hesitated to spend on coaches and facilities for the non-rev sports and it shows in their success. The Big East schools would like to win some conference titles in sports other than basketball (where Notre Dame would be a good addition but not dominant). Notre Dame was 9th in the fall Learfield IMG cup. They were 17th last year for the full year. Only Georgetown and Villanova were top 50 and those 2 + St. John's in the top 100 this year. Last year Georgetown 70 and Villanova 76 were the only ones in the top 100 and only 5 were even in the top 150.

Agree, with one comment.

ND doesn't use athletic revenues to build facilities.

It waits until it has enough donations for that purpose before building them.

Those facilities are donor funded.

The lead donors' information for each facility is listed in the name and at the bottom of each facility description in the link below.


https://und.com/facilities/

I was considering donor money as part of "football revenue." Athletic donations are driven by Notre Dame's football history.

When I use the term "athletic revenues", I am talking about ticket sales, TV deals, conference payouts, apparel deals, etc., not donations.

Other schools use "athletic revenues" to build facilities. ND does not.
04-01-2020 10:33 AM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(04-01-2020 10:17 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(04-01-2020 08:11 AM)Bogg Wrote:  By my count Notre Dame's 64-64 in conference play since joining the ACC. They've been perfectly fine in their new conference and they'd be a good-not-great Big East team.

21-35 in the last 3 seasons.

(04-01-2020 09:39 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-01-2020 08:44 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(03-31-2020 08:28 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Take Villanova out of the Big East and what do you have left? No one else compares to North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia, not to mention Louisville.

Historically speaking, Georgetown and St. John's were/could be considered top 25 programs. UConn has probably surpassed both in the last 20 years.

I would say UNC and Duke are top 5 all-time.

Virginia, Louisville, Villanova, and UConn are top 25 all-time. Georgetown used to be a force and is currently on the outskirts, but with a few tourney appearances would be back in. St. John's–although a dominant program in the 80's–hasn't won a national title, if I recall correctly.

Yea, I'm not trying to turn this into some ACC vs Big East thing, just pointing out that either way you're talking about two of the top couple basketball leagues in the country. Notre Dame's a middle- to upper-middle-tier basketball program in either conference. It makes no sense to say they're not ACC quality but could manage in the Big East.

The ACC is #1 by many people in college basketball. North Carolina had a bad season but are a blue blood and are three years removed from a national championship. I'm a Villanova fan and they have won two national championships since 2016 but I'm not going to say they are Duke or North Carolina on a consistent level. We'll win the Big East most years. You give us 10 years in the ACC and we'll be lucky to win the regular season once. It's not a coincidence that Villanova went from being a mediocre team to dominating the Big East once Syracuse, UConn, and Louisville left. Notre Dame isn't the only team that isn't as good in men's basketball since they moved from the Big East to the ACC. Pitt's basically irrelevant (although that's more to do with Jamie Dixon leaving). Syracuse is a .500 team in the ACC. They weren't in the Big East. Louisville's the only one Big East team that has adjusted to the higher level of the ACC. Five ACC teams made last year's Sweet 16. Only four of the ten Big East teams have made the Sweet 16 since 2010, four of them haven't made the Sweet 16 since 2000 (EVERY ACC team has).

I'm not saying the Big East isn't a top basketball conference, they're just not the ACC. That's OK, no one is.

It seems like you're building your entire argument around Notre Dame's crummy 2019 season where they went 3-15 in conference play, using it to weigh down three-season totals and make it look like extended struggles. They finished with 20+ wins in every other season over the last 6 years and have gone .500 or better in-conference more often than not. They also never won a Big East title, regular season or the actual one, and already have an ACC title. They're fine. They'd be fine in the Big East too. They're not some elite college basketball program, so acting like "only" one conference title and two elite eights in the last half-decade or do is some major down period was and remains silly.
04-01-2020 10:54 AM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Notre Dame in conference
Barring anything dramatic happening, when 2037 comes around there will be some posturing between ND and the ACC. ND will get to get their fb commitment reduced to 4 games, the ACC will ask for 6 or maybe even full membership. They probably Compromise on the current 5.

If an amenable solution can’t be reached ND either stays the Indy course and takes their Olympic sports to the Big East or gets a big pay day by joining the Big Ten as a full member.

Of course the posturing that will occur with the Big 12 in 2024 could change the landscape.
04-01-2020 12:16 PM
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BePcr07 Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Notre Dame in conference
(04-01-2020 12:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Barring anything dramatic happening, when 2037 comes around there will be some posturing between ND and the ACC. ND will get to get their fb commitment reduced to 4 games, the ACC will ask for 6 or maybe even full membership. They probably Compromise on the current 5.

If an amenable solution can’t be reached ND either stays the Indy course and takes their Olympic sports to the Big East or gets a big pay day by joining the Big Ten as a full member.

Of course the posturing that will occur with the Big 12 in 2024 could change the landscape.

Exactly. Unless the ACC disappears or becomes a shell of itself or the Irish feel forced to make a move before 2037, Notre Dame isn't going to change their current status for at least another 17 years. My personal opinion is we need more independents with small regional conferences or megaconferences.

It will be interesting to see how the XII story unfolds in 2024.

If they sit at 10 or perhaps go to 12 then we may be a stalemate for a long while likely further extending Notre Dame's current deal structure.

If Texas and Oklahoma split (perhaps Texas and Texas Tech to the SEC and Oklahoma and Kansas to the B1G), Notre Dame will probably stay as they are.

If the SEC is able to wrangle Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Kansas, and, say, Iowa St, the B1G may tell the Irish to pick 5 friends and let's make this work.
04-01-2020 01:10 PM
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