Saw today that the ladies will be on the road at Ohio and Memphis this fall.

A Sea Of Red (ASOR) posed the question on social media today on whether the new basketball arena is too small. The responses have been about 50/50.

My take is that I’d have preferred the arena to be 5,000-6,000. I believe the vines was 9,000. Or at least big enough you could open up more seating for “big” games. The UofL Yum center has curtains that separate the arena and looks good both ways on TV.

I know that a small arena will create greater demand, thus allowing LU to raise ticket prices.
I also imagine that students will now be limited or will begin to pay their way into games.
I don’t like either of those aspects.

I do like the though of a packed out loud crowd for basketball games.

I haven’t been able to find any “finished” inside renderings or videos of the new arena. I hope it looks great. I’ve seen the new one High Point is building and it is A-M-A-Z-I-N-G-!

For where we hope to be, 4,000 capacity is way too low. How are we supposed to impress better conferences and create the best home game atmosphere while growing our fan base by allowing less fans into games?

The following are basketball arena capacities for the Big East and A10 conferences. This gives an idea of where LU ranks in terms of arena capacity. I put the new LU arena and Vines approximate capacities in the lists.
I personally think LU needs to have an arena that is at least 7,000 for long-term growth and attraction towards either conference. Maybe LU MBB can move back to the Vines in the future or maybe LU can build another basketball arena.

Big East
1 Verizon Center Georgetown 20,308
2 Madison Square Garden St. John's 19,033
3 BMO Harris Bradley Center Marquette 18,850
4 Prudential Center Seton Hall 18,711
5 CenturyLink Center Omaha Creighton 18,320
6 Allstate Aren DePaul 17,500
7 Dunkin' Donuts Center Providence 12,400
8 Cintas Center Xavier 10,250
9 Hinkle Fieldhouse Butler 9,100
Vines 9,000
10 The Pavilion Villanova 6,500
LU arena 4,000

A10
Dayton University of Dayton Arena 13,435
Saint Louis Chaifetz Arena 10,600
George Mason EagleBank Arena 10,000
Massachusetts Mullins Center 9,493
Vines 9,000
Rhode Island Ryan Center 7,657
Virginia Commonwealth Stuart C. Siegel Center 7,617
Richmond Robins Center 7,201
St. Bonaventure Reilly Center 5,480
Davidson John M. Belk Arena 5,223
Duquesne UPMC Cooper Fieldhouse 4,406
George Washington Smith Center 4,338
St. Joseph's Hagan Arena 4,200
LU arena 4,000
Fordham Rose Hill Gymnasium 3,470
La Salle Tom Gola Arena 3,400

I thought our arena was 4,500. That would move it up several spots.

(05-15-2020 01:47 PM)army56mike Wrote:  I thought our arena was 4,500. That would move it up several spots.

For sure. It does help in regards to the A10.

A10
Dayton University of Dayton Arena 13,435
Saint Louis Chaifetz Arena 10,600
George Mason EagleBank Arena 10,000
Massachusetts Mullins Center 9,493
Vines 9,000
Rhode Island Ryan Center 7,657
Virginia Commonwealth Stuart C. Siegel Center 7,617
Richmond Robins Center 7,201
St. Bonaventure Reilly Center 5,480
Davidson John M. Belk Arena 5,223
LU arena 4,500
Duquesne UPMC Cooper Fieldhouse 4,406
George Washington Smith Center 4,338
St. Joseph's Hagan Arena 4,200
Fordham Rose Hill Gymnasium 3,470
La Salle Tom Gola Arena 3,400

Our new arena is already too small.

Last 10 games:
- 7,728 - otherLU
- 2,966 - Stetson
- 3,043 - NJIT
- 6,762 - Stetson
- 5,613 - North Florida
- 4,742 - NJIT
- 4,413 - FGCU
- 3,988 - Kennesaw St.
- 6,008 - otherLU
- 4,299 - Jacksonville

I don't know if this is still the case, but students used to get into the games for free. With such a small arena, will that still be the case?

(05-16-2020 04:02 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  I don't know if this is still the case, but students used to get into the games for free. With such a small arena, will that still be the case?

It will be but it will more than likely go to a lottery system now. All major universities I’ve attend did the same.

If there was a way for them to have done 7000 in the room they had, I think they would have aimed for it. Problem is, it's a pretty tight space between Vines & DeMoss.

However, while the seating is currently smaller than we'd like, I think the new format will be much more conducive to putting pressure on the visitors than Vines has been. I was there for a number of those larger crowd games, & it still felt like we were short on people, & far away from the action even while close to the floor.

Hopefully there is already a plan in place to expand seating, but if this works out like they've described, it will be worth a few seasons of seating shortage to get that true NCAA basketball feel in the arena.

I'm hoping the plan is to renovate the Vines so that it has a retractable configurations to convert it back and forth from a basketball arena to a convocation/concert center. The Vines Center was modeled after Baylor's Ferrell Center, which can convert its seats differently for basketball, volleyball, and concerts. Obviously, the Vines is the poor man's version, especially since LU didn't have alot of money when they built it.

I hope they plan to move MBB back to the Vines either when my speculative renovations are done or at least for bigger games, and if and when we move to a better conference. The new arena is perfect a perfect ASUN arena, but if we're aiming for CUSA, AAC, A-10 or the Big East, it's wholly inadequate. Throw in the attendance numbers for our last 10 MBB games and it definitely makes you wonder about the decision making on the new Arena. I don't understand why they just didn't build a new BB/VB arena or Convocation Center somewhere else. Such as at the mall, which LU now owns, when a few years ago they proposed building one there with the region's local governments and having MBB play there.

If it were up to me, MBB would stay put, except for December/January games when the students aren't in town. They could play in the Arena then.

(05-19-2020 11:26 AM)LibertyOrangeman Wrote:  I'm hoping the plan is to renovate the Vines so that it has a retractable configurations to convert it back and forth from a basketball arena to a convocation/concert center. The Vines Center was modeled after Baylor's Ferrell Center, which can convert its seats differently for basketball, volleyball, and concerts. Obviously, the Vines is the poor man's version, especially since LU didn't have alot of money when they built it.

I hope they plan to move MBB back to the Vines either when my speculative renovations are done or at least for bigger games, and if and when we move to a better conference. The new arena is perfect a perfect ASUN arena, but if we're aiming for CUSA, AAC, A-10 or the Big East, it's wholly inadequate. Throw in the attendance numbers for our last 10 MBB games and it definitely makes you wonder about the decision making on the new Arena. I don't understand why they just didn't build a new BB/VB arena or Convocation Center somewhere else. Such as at the mall, which LU now owns, when a few years ago they proposed building one there with the region's local governments and having MBB play there.

If it were up to me, MBB would stay put, except for December/January games when the students aren't in town. They could play in the Arena then.

Not sure why it's hard to understand; what matters is winning the games and making tough for the opponents every home game. A smaller arena gives us an advantage of a loud atmosphere. The games at Vines are not always 7k attendees, and when it is, it's not so threatening for the opponents. Why do you think coach K doesnt want a bigger arena for Duke? Also, it values the cost of tickets and the demands to attend games. Having butts in seats is not helpful especially when most of the spectators are just there to hang out and not 90% in the game. I think the smaller arena is a great idea and so does Coach McKay and the athletic heads. Even if we become more of a national team and get invited to a better conference, it couldn't be beneficial to use the Vines any longer. Of they decide to build another arena that's around 6-7k (not wide), then sure.

(05-19-2020 02:05 PM)cruzan_flame13 Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 11:26 AM)LibertyOrangeman Wrote:  I'm hoping the plan is to renovate the Vines so that it has a retractable configurations to convert it back and forth from a basketball arena to a convocation/concert center. The Vines Center was modeled after Baylor's Ferrell Center, which can convert its seats differently for basketball, volleyball, and concerts. Obviously, the Vines is the poor man's version, especially since LU didn't have alot of money when they built it.

I hope they plan to move MBB back to the Vines either when my speculative renovations are done or at least for bigger games, and if and when we move to a better conference. The new arena is perfect a perfect ASUN arena, but if we're aiming for CUSA, AAC, A-10 or the Big East, it's wholly inadequate. Throw in the attendance numbers for our last 10 MBB games and it definitely makes you wonder about the decision making on the new Arena. I don't understand why they just didn't build a new BB/VB arena or Convocation Center somewhere else. Such as at the mall, which LU now owns, when a few years ago they proposed building one there with the region's local governments and having MBB play there.

If it were up to me, MBB would stay put, except for December/January games when the students aren't in town. They could play in the Arena then.

Not sure why it's hard to understand; what matters is winning the games and making tough for the opponents every home game. A smaller arena gives us an advantage of a loud atmosphere. The games at Vines are not always 7k attendees, and when it is, it's not so threatening for the opponents. Why do you think coach K doesnt want a bigger arena for Duke? Also, it values the cost of tickets and the demands to attend games. Having butts in seats is not helpful especially when most of the spectators are just there to hang out and not 90% in the game. I think the smaller arena is a great idea and so does Coach McKay and the athletic heads. Even if we become more of a national team and get invited to a better conference, it couldn't be beneficial to use the Vines any longer. Of they decide to build another arena that's around 6-7k (not wide), then sure.

You mistake people not understanding you with people disagreeing with you. Yes, the point is to win. Yes, we'd like to have a home court advantage. Isn't it more of an advantage if more people are in attendance? Why not make attendance at 100 fans at $1,000 per seat to get only the serious fans who want to be there? I'm not arguing for keeping the Vines Center but a basketball specific arena that holds 8,000 and is expandable would serve the purpose we need.

Duke is a small private school. We are essentially a pseudo-public school meaning we are a private that acta like a public. We are not elite academically and we have relaxed enrollment to get as many undergrads as we can and serve our constituents (evangelicals). We don't have the history of Duke to demand high prices for our rich basketball tradition and high caliber of opponents. We barely have a history at all, being founded 50 years ago compared to schools triple our age.

I think it would be more beneficial to get as many attending as we can, show them a good time, and convince them to invest in our program and keep coming back. Now we're turning it into a club that requires higher entrance fees for the same quality of basketball, potentially alienating students and fans. Now with it easier than ever to not go to games, we are making it less convenient for potential consumers and maybe losing fan interest.

(05-19-2020 04:14 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 02:05 PM)cruzan_flame13 Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 11:26 AM)LibertyOrangeman Wrote:  I'm hoping the plan is to renovate the Vines so that it has a retractable configurations to convert it back and forth from a basketball arena to a convocation/concert center. The Vines Center was modeled after Baylor's Ferrell Center, which can convert its seats differently for basketball, volleyball, and concerts. Obviously, the Vines is the poor man's version, especially since LU didn't have alot of money when they built it.

I hope they plan to move MBB back to the Vines either when my speculative renovations are done or at least for bigger games, and if and when we move to a better conference. The new arena is perfect a perfect ASUN arena, but if we're aiming for CUSA, AAC, A-10 or the Big East, it's wholly inadequate. Throw in the attendance numbers for our last 10 MBB games and it definitely makes you wonder about the decision making on the new Arena. I don't understand why they just didn't build a new BB/VB arena or Convocation Center somewhere else. Such as at the mall, which LU now owns, when a few years ago they proposed building one there with the region's local governments and having MBB play there.

If it were up to me, MBB would stay put, except for December/January games when the students aren't in town. They could play in the Arena then.

Not sure why it's hard to understand; what matters is winning the games and making tough for the opponents every home game. A smaller arena gives us an advantage of a loud atmosphere. The games at Vines are not always 7k attendees, and when it is, it's not so threatening for the opponents. Why do you think coach K doesnt want a bigger arena for Duke? Also, it values the cost of tickets and the demands to attend games. Having butts in seats is not helpful especially when most of the spectators are just there to hang out and not 90% in the game. I think the smaller arena is a great idea and so does Coach McKay and the athletic heads. Even if we become more of a national team and get invited to a better conference, it couldn't be beneficial to use the Vines any longer. Of they decide to build another arena that's around 6-7k (not wide), then sure.

You mistake people not understanding you with people disagreeing with you. Yes, the point is to win. Yes, we'd like to have a home court advantage. Isn't it more of an advantage if more people are in attendance? Why not make attendance at 100 fans at $1,000 per seat to get only the serious fans who want to be there? I'm not arguing for keeping the Vines Center but a basketball specific arena that holds 8,000 and is expandable would serve the purpose we need.

Duke is a small private school. We are essentially a pseudo-public school meaning we are a private that acta like a public. We are not elite academically and we have relaxed enrollment to get as many undergrads as we can and serve our constituents (evangelicals). We don't have the history of Duke to demand high prices for our rich basketball tradition and high caliber of opponents. We barely have a history at all, being founded 50 years ago compared to schools triple our age.

I think it would be more beneficial to get as many attending as we can, show them a good time, and convince them to invest in our program and keep coming back. Now we're turning it into a club that requires higher entrance fees for the same quality of basketball, potentially alienating students and fans. Now with it easier than ever to not go to games, we are making it less convenient for potential consumers and maybe losing fan interest.

What I’ve learned is if you give out an unlimited amount of tickets people aren’t really into the games (Liberty). I’ve attended USC and UofL. Both of those schools have lottery systems for students. The result is you get a really passionate student base that typically results in season ticket holders after graduation. Sales 101 from the guy that makes a living doing it.

(05-19-2020 05:24 PM)Ewglenn Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 04:14 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 02:05 PM)cruzan_flame13 Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 11:26 AM)LibertyOrangeman Wrote:  I'm hoping the plan is to renovate the Vines so that it has a retractable configurations to convert it back and forth from a basketball arena to a convocation/concert center. The Vines Center was modeled after Baylor's Ferrell Center, which can convert its seats differently for basketball, volleyball, and concerts. Obviously, the Vines is the poor man's version, especially since LU didn't have alot of money when they built it.

I hope they plan to move MBB back to the Vines either when my speculative renovations are done or at least for bigger games, and if and when we move to a better conference. The new arena is perfect a perfect ASUN arena, but if we're aiming for CUSA, AAC, A-10 or the Big East, it's wholly inadequate. Throw in the attendance numbers for our last 10 MBB games and it definitely makes you wonder about the decision making on the new Arena. I don't understand why they just didn't build a new BB/VB arena or Convocation Center somewhere else. Such as at the mall, which LU now owns, when a few years ago they proposed building one there with the region's local governments and having MBB play there.

If it were up to me, MBB would stay put, except for December/January games when the students aren't in town. They could play in the Arena then.

Not sure why it's hard to understand; what matters is winning the games and making tough for the opponents every home game. A smaller arena gives us an advantage of a loud atmosphere. The games at Vines are not always 7k attendees, and when it is, it's not so threatening for the opponents. Why do you think coach K doesnt want a bigger arena for Duke? Also, it values the cost of tickets and the demands to attend games. Having butts in seats is not helpful especially when most of the spectators are just there to hang out and not 90% in the game. I think the smaller arena is a great idea and so does Coach McKay and the athletic heads. Even if we become more of a national team and get invited to a better conference, it couldn't be beneficial to use the Vines any longer. Of they decide to build another arena that's around 6-7k (not wide), then sure.

You mistake people not understanding you with people disagreeing with you. Yes, the point is to win. Yes, we'd like to have a home court advantage. Isn't it more of an advantage if more people are in attendance? Why not make attendance at 100 fans at $1,000 per seat to get only the serious fans who want to be there? I'm not arguing for keeping the Vines Center but a basketball specific arena that holds 8,000 and is expandable would serve the purpose we need.

Duke is a small private school. We are essentially a pseudo-public school meaning we are a private that acta like a public. We are not elite academically and we have relaxed enrollment to get as many undergrads as we can and serve our constituents (evangelicals). We don't have the history of Duke to demand high prices for our rich basketball tradition and high caliber of opponents. We barely have a history at all, being founded 50 years ago compared to schools triple our age.

I think it would be more beneficial to get as many attending as we can, show them a good time, and convince them to invest in our program and keep coming back. Now we're turning it into a club that requires higher entrance fees for the same quality of basketball, potentially alienating students and fans. Now with it easier than ever to not go to games, we are making it less convenient for potential consumers and maybe losing fan interest.

What I’ve learned is if you give out an unlimited amount of tickets people aren’t really into the games (Liberty). I’ve attended USC and UofL. Both of those schools have lottery systems for students. The result is you get a really passionate student base that typically results in season ticket holders after graduation. Sales 101 from the guy that makes a living doing it.

Being a sales guy, you can appreciate the mindset behind free samples. Give away free tickets to students so they make a habit of going to games so that when they graduate, they'll pay for tickets. Again, not saying you're wrong, just there are multiple ways to go about this and I (and apparently others) don't agree with the lottery system.

(05-20-2020 06:38 AM)GE and MTS Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 05:24 PM)Ewglenn Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 04:14 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 02:05 PM)cruzan_flame13 Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 11:26 AM)LibertyOrangeman Wrote:  I'm hoping the plan is to renovate the Vines so that it has a retractable configurations to convert it back and forth from a basketball arena to a convocation/concert center. The Vines Center was modeled after Baylor's Ferrell Center, which can convert its seats differently for basketball, volleyball, and concerts. Obviously, the Vines is the poor man's version, especially since LU didn't have alot of money when they built it.

I hope they plan to move MBB back to the Vines either when my speculative renovations are done or at least for bigger games, and if and when we move to a better conference. The new arena is perfect a perfect ASUN arena, but if we're aiming for CUSA, AAC, A-10 or the Big East, it's wholly inadequate. Throw in the attendance numbers for our last 10 MBB games and it definitely makes you wonder about the decision making on the new Arena. I don't understand why they just didn't build a new BB/VB arena or Convocation Center somewhere else. Such as at the mall, which LU now owns, when a few years ago they proposed building one there with the region's local governments and having MBB play there.

If it were up to me, MBB would stay put, except for December/January games when the students aren't in town. They could play in the Arena then.

Not sure why it's hard to understand; what matters is winning the games and making tough for the opponents every home game. A smaller arena gives us an advantage of a loud atmosphere. The games at Vines are not always 7k attendees, and when it is, it's not so threatening for the opponents. Why do you think coach K doesnt want a bigger arena for Duke? Also, it values the cost of tickets and the demands to attend games. Having butts in seats is not helpful especially when most of the spectators are just there to hang out and not 90% in the game. I think the smaller arena is a great idea and so does Coach McKay and the athletic heads. Even if we become more of a national team and get invited to a better conference, it couldn't be beneficial to use the Vines any longer. Of they decide to build another arena that's around 6-7k (not wide), then sure.

You mistake people not understanding you with people disagreeing with you. Yes, the point is to win. Yes, we'd like to have a home court advantage. Isn't it more of an advantage if more people are in attendance? Why not make attendance at 100 fans at $1,000 per seat to get only the serious fans who want to be there? I'm not arguing for keeping the Vines Center but a basketball specific arena that holds 8,000 and is expandable would serve the purpose we need.

Duke is a small private school. We are essentially a pseudo-public school meaning we are a private that acta like a public. We are not elite academically and we have relaxed enrollment to get as many undergrads as we can and serve our constituents (evangelicals). We don't have the history of Duke to demand high prices for our rich basketball tradition and high caliber of opponents. We barely have a history at all, being founded 50 years ago compared to schools triple our age.

I think it would be more beneficial to get as many attending as we can, show them a good time, and convince them to invest in our program and keep coming back. Now we're turning it into a club that requires higher entrance fees for the same quality of basketball, potentially alienating students and fans. Now with it easier than ever to not go to games, we are making it less convenient for potential consumers and maybe losing fan interest.

What I’ve learned is if you give out an unlimited amount of tickets people aren’t really into the games (Liberty). I’ve attended USC and UofL. Both of those schools have lottery systems for students. The result is you get a really passionate student base that typically results in season ticket holders after graduation. Sales 101 from the guy that makes a living doing it.

Being a sales guy, you can appreciate the mindset behind free samples. Give away free tickets to students so they make a habit of going to games so that when they graduate, they'll pay for tickets. Again, not saying you're wrong, just there are multiple ways to go about this and I (and apparently others) don't agree with the lottery system.

I think one thing we also have to consider is that this past season was the only one with steady high numbers at our MBB games in a long time, & most of that seemed due to our best senior class ever.

I think the fear is that we will see a trend down in numbers until this team proves itself, & with a mostly young team, it may be a few seasons before we see that again. If we stay in Vines, we lose any intimidation factor we had if we lose even a quarter of the number we had this past season. However, moving into the new arena can mask that, & it builds more of a demand due to lack of seats.

I'd love to say that our student base is big on MBB, but the sad reality is that for now, they see Liberty as a FB school first with occasional MBB greatness. They're finnicky.

God forbid, someone disagrees with the idea and thinking behind the new arena for MBB. IN MY OPINION, the Vines Center is a great arena for MBB and definitely this fall with a new lower roof. It's also an adequate size for our aspirations. A retractable seating and/or stage and screen system would solve a lot of problems for LU.

I'll concede that last year's attendance might be a fluke due to the senior class and the recent success, and I'll add that even with sustained success, if we stay in the ASUN too long, our attendance will still drop due to being in a low-major conference. This happened with WBB, where attendance spiked considerably, but then dropped back down due to the ladies whooping up on the Big South virtually every game.

I'll also add, that the biggest hindrance to MBB attendance at the Vines has always been parking, and it's only been exasperated by all the construction and Liberty's dislike of parking. After that it has been the fact that they've stunk and been in the Big South and ASUN. We'll see how the luster of the new arena and the mega parking deck effects attendance.

The new arena, while it will be very nice and impressive, is too small. IMO, 6K would've been much better. Unless of course you're talking about WBB, volleyball, and staying in the ASUN. Let's also add that it's also smaller than several of the other ASUN arenas.

I don't think and I hope that the arena is not Liberty's long term solution of MBB. But I could be wrong, and it's still my opinion.

I also think a reason student attendance is comparable to football is that half the games are playex on a week night. Hard for some students... or so I’m told.

(05-20-2020 05:47 PM)army56mike Wrote:  I also think a reason student attendance is comparable to football is that half the games are playex on a week night. Hard for some students... or so I’m told.

I’m a full time student, I work full time and have a daughter. I will still make it to pretty much all of the MTSU games this year. So I don’t buy the “hard” stuff. It’s two hours once or twice a week. If they wanted to be there they would be.

I understand the rationale for non-D1 games in MBB. But let's face it, it's just as hard for the students to get excited for Trevecca Nazarene, KY Christian, ME-Fort Worth, and some of the ASUn schools as it is for me. A good team vs. a quality opponent is what the average fan, no matter their age and workload, wants to see. And the parking has always sucked for the Vines Center and it has actually gotten worse lately. Unfortunately, the new arena doesn't change the parking. But we'll see how the mega-parking deck effects attendance.