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Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
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texoma Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-25-2020 01:30 PM)Pony94 Wrote:  I would be more worried about schools like Tulsa

Exactly, Tulsa has always relied heavily on International students to sustain them financially, because they pay 100% of the cost of their education. A large portion of their 3,200 student body has been International students. Plus the University is already in serious financial trouble.
03-25-2020 07:21 PM
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johnintx Online
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-25-2020 07:21 PM)texoma Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 01:30 PM)Pony94 Wrote:  I would be more worried about schools like Tulsa

Exactly, Tulsa has always relied heavily on International students to sustain them financially, because they pay 100% of the cost of their education. A large portion of their 3,200 student body has been International students. Plus the University is already in serious financial trouble.

This is what I have heard, also.
03-25-2020 08:10 PM
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Erictelevision Offline
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
Would Tulsa merge with OU or OSU? Become a satellite campus?
03-25-2020 11:24 PM
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johnintx Online
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-25-2020 11:24 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Would Tulsa merge with OU or OSU? Become a satellite campus?

The University of Tulsa is a private school. It currently has a $1.2 billion endowment. They are having a lot of financial issues outside of the endowment, so I'm not sure how that will be impacted. They're not shutting down tomorrow, but they're not doing well, either.

They have run a deficit seven years in a row, and have had a significant decrease in their credit rating. They are looking at another $14-20 million in budget cuts or revenue increases in the next three years.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/ed...31821.html

OSU currently has a campus in Tulsa. OU currently has a medical branch there. It's too early to speculate on what would happen to the TU campus if they were to close.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 11:37 PM by johnintx.)
03-25-2020 11:35 PM
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Erictelevision Offline
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
Thanks John for your local knowledge (FTR, I knew Tulsa was private)
03-25-2020 11:54 PM
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johnintx Online
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-25-2020 11:54 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Thanks John for your local knowledge (FTR, I knew Tulsa was private)

The University of Tulsa has always punched way above their weight in athletics. FBS football is very important to them, though they are a tiny school. They left the Missouri Valley to continue with FBS football, and have been in every conference in the region since (except the Big 12). They'll stay in the AAC as long as they can. If these financial issues make their way to the athletic department, decisions will have to be made.
03-26-2020 12:22 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-25-2020 03:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:05 PM)AZcats Wrote:  D2 sports can be money makers also. Granted not as much as D3 because of scholarships. Football is a good example. The average D2 football roster size in 2018 was 111 players and the D2 scholarship limit is 36. That leaves about 2/3 of tuition, room & board, and other expenses still has to be covered by the players.

But ... that assumes that the 75 or so other players on the roster came to that school because of football, and would not have come otherwise.

Given that there is little glory involved in D2 football, that seems very unlikely. It makes zero sense to spend tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket to play D2 football. Or D3. The kids on the team likely choose that school for other reasons, and play football because it is ... there.

A few weeks ago, we had someone arguing that there were kids choosing to pay $45,000 a year in tuition at a private school in order to be the 85th guy - maybe the 3rd string right tackle? - on the roster of an NAIA football team. That was one of the biggest laffers around here in quite a while.

Look at it this way Quo, that kid is going to pay $40,000 a year to be a frat bro for 4 years somewhere.
That kid doesn't have the grades to get into his local p5 School.
So he can be a frat boy tailgating it up and watching from the stands at g5 directional state, or at FCS directional tech. Or he can be On The Team and get the camaradaerie he enjoys and have the identity of being a college ath-a-leet at naia denominational directional vocational state academy of agramaculture.
03-26-2020 07:16 AM
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TrueBlueDrew Online
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-25-2020 01:34 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I think that is unlikely.

D-III is not expensive, maybe $1.5 a year. Non-scholarship athletes more than pay for the programs with their tuition. They simply go on vacation for a year.

The schools which are hardest hit will be G5, FCS and other D-I which are heavily subsidized. Their expenses are much higher, especially staff, and without income this could blow $10m holes in their budgets. Some might think about dropping or dropping down.

P5 will also be hit, but they have revenues coming in in following years to make up. I could see some serious cost cutting, salary freezes and such.

It all depends on how long this lasts.

Unless this virus causes an extensive prolonged depression, I doubt we see schools move down entire divisions. Most likely G5 and FCS schools will be hit the hardest, but they're much more likely to just put their athletics on hiatus for a several months to a year until the economy improves, and they can resustain their programs. A lot of it depends on how quickly the power 5 bounces back too.
03-26-2020 07:17 AM
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TrueBlueDrew Online
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-26-2020 07:16 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 03:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:05 PM)AZcats Wrote:  D2 sports can be money makers also. Granted not as much as D3 because of scholarships. Football is a good example. The average D2 football roster size in 2018 was 111 players and the D2 scholarship limit is 36. That leaves about 2/3 of tuition, room & board, and other expenses still has to be covered by the players.

But ... that assumes that the 75 or so other players on the roster came to that school because of football, and would not have come otherwise.

Given that there is little glory involved in D2 football, that seems very unlikely. It makes zero sense to spend tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket to play D2 football. Or D3. The kids on the team likely choose that school for other reasons, and play football because it is ... there.

A few weeks ago, we had someone arguing that there were kids choosing to pay $45,000 a year in tuition at a private school in order to be the 85th guy - maybe the 3rd string right tackle? - on the roster of an NAIA football team. That was one of the biggest laffers around here in quite a while.

Look at it this way Quo, that kid is going to pay $40,000 a year to be a frat bro for 4 years somewhere.
That kid doesn't have the grades to get into his local p5 School.
So he can be a frat boy tailgating it up and watching from the stands at g5 directional state, or at FCS directional tech. Or he can be On The Team and get the camaradaerie he enjoys and have the identity of being a college ath-a-leet at naia denominational directional vocational state academy of agramaculture.

I don't know why but this made me laugh. I feel like I've heard of this school. 03-lmfao
03-26-2020 07:20 AM
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-25-2020 11:35 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 11:24 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Would Tulsa merge with OU or OSU? Become a satellite campus?

The University of Tulsa is a private school. It currently has a $1.2 billion endowment. They are having a lot of financial issues outside of the endowment, so I'm not sure how that will be impacted. They're not shutting down tomorrow, but they're not doing well, either.

They have run a deficit seven years in a row, and have had a significant decrease in their credit rating. They are looking at another $14-20 million in budget cuts or revenue increases in the next three years.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/ed...31821.html

OSU currently has a campus in Tulsa. OU currently has a medical branch there. It's too early to speculate on what would happen to the TU campus if they were to close.

I'm sure this has been discussed before at Tulsa and similar schools, but why not just increase enrollment? I guess with high tuition there probably isn't huge demand to go there, but even admitting just a few hundred more students means millions in dollars. I know they need dorm beds, but in the short term that can be accomplished by encouraging upperclassmen to live off campus.
03-26-2020 08:33 AM
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texoma Offline
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-26-2020 08:33 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 11:35 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 11:24 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Would Tulsa merge with OU or OSU? Become a satellite campus?

The University of Tulsa is a private school. It currently has a $1.2 billion endowment. They are having a lot of financial issues outside of the endowment, so I'm not sure how that will be impacted. They're not shutting down tomorrow, but they're not doing well, either.

They have run a deficit seven years in a row, and have had a significant decrease in their credit rating. They are looking at another $14-20 million in budget cuts or revenue increases in the next three years.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/ed...31821.html

OSU currently has a campus in Tulsa. OU currently has a medical branch there. It's too early to speculate on what would happen to the TU campus if they were to close.

I'm sure this has been discussed before at Tulsa and similar schools, but why not just increase enrollment? I guess with high tuition there probably isn't huge demand to go there, but even admitting just a few hundred more students means millions in dollars. I know they need dorm beds, but in the short term that can be accomplished by encouraging upperclassmen to live off campus.

Tulsa has tried to increase enrollment without much success. It is a whole lot more expensive to attend than the state schools, so the locals do not attend. That is why they have many International students, plus out of state kids.

That is also one of the reasons they have always had attendance issues. Not only is their enrollment limited, but the students graduate and leave the area or country and never return.
03-26-2020 10:19 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-25-2020 04:24 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 03:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:05 PM)AZcats Wrote:  D2 sports can be money makers also. Granted not as much as D3 because of scholarships. Football is a good example. The average D2 football roster size in 2018 was 111 players and the D2 scholarship limit is 36. That leaves about 2/3 of tuition, room & board, and other expenses still has to be covered by the players.

But ... that assumes that the 75 or so other players on the roster came to that school because of football, and would not have come otherwise.

Given that there is little glory involved in D2 football, that seems very unlikely. It makes zero sense to spend tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket to play D2 football. Or D3. The kids on the team likely choose that school for other reasons, and play football because it is ... there.

A few weeks ago, we had someone arguing that there were kids choosing to pay $45,000 a year in tuition at a private school in order to be the 85th guy - maybe the 3rd string right tackle? - on the roster of an NAIA football team. That was one of the biggest laffers around here in quite a while.

AZcats can answer this better than I can, as he has more direct experience with small college football than I do.

Yes, at the D2 level, the lower rungs of the depth charts are filled with players that would normally go to that particular school. They're getting some athletic aid, but not much. They are getting the same financial aid that other students get.

There is a lot of roster turnover. As he mentioned, there is a high roster size, but it's also not unusual for a school to sign 40 or 50 recruits in a class. There is a scholarship limit, but those scholarships can be split. And, very few D2 schools are offering the scholarship limit in football. So, very few players are there on a full ride. You're getting players that are going to be paying for school anyway, and want to keep playing football.

There are recruiting battles for the better players, who have their choice of schools at the same level. Very few players are getting a full athletic scholarship at the D2 level, so the financial aid package comes into play. The better the package you can offer, the more likely you can get that player onto your team, if he likes your school. These are players that are most likely not getting a full ride anywhere, but can still play somewhere.

Funds are limited (these are primarily smaller public schools and small private schools), so it's not a total bidding war. But, if you can get (conservatively) 50 football players to come in that are choosing your school over another one, and they are covering $20,000 each in tuition and fees, that's $1,000,000 into your school's pocket. For a small private school dependent on tuition, every little bit helps. Likewise, for a smaller public school depending on a smaller piece of state funding, every little bit helps. Also, with Title IX, the schools also have to provide the same opportunities for women's athletics, so these schools are offering expanded scholarships and opportunities for female athletes in order to balance out football.

It sounds crazy, but it helps the bottom line of some of these schools, and gives some athletes the chance to play when they don't have the ability to play at the Division I level.

Yes, but that's what I am questioning. I don't think anything but a trivial number of students are actually choosing to go to D2 school X because of football or other sports, thereby bringing their tuition and room and board money to that school, for the purpose of being on a D2 roster**.

The only ones that would seem willing to do that would be the ones getting a scholarship of some kind, because if the school is offering a scholarship they are likely to actually play rather than be #70 on the depth chart, and their costs are being defrayed, but of course then this cuts in to whatever money the school hopes to milk out of them in terms of tuition, etc. For the student-athletes getting no athletic scholarships, the big majority of the kids on a roster of 110 players, it seems pretty obvious that the price of choosing a school because of football is steep and the payoff is basically non-existent, which makes one question if it's happening.

Here's a quote from an NCAA report on D2 revenues and expenses. This is from 2012 but I doubt things have changed much. And before you question the numbers or what they are counting as revenues and expenses, remember that since the NCAA is a collegiate athletics association, all the "bias" in their reporting is in favor of making athletics look as good as possible, not bad:

"The median expenses for institutions sponsoring football in 2011-12 was $5.3 million. For institutions not sponsoring football, the median athletics expense was $4.0 million. The median generated revenues (those revenues that accrue from athletics directly) at football-playing institutions was $624,000. For those without football, the median was $314,000. Thus, the net expense (i.e., total expenses minus generated revenues) to the median football institution was approximately $4.5 million versus $3.6 million at non-football institutions."

Above, you talked about an extra $1 million going in to the school's pocket from having massive football rosters. As I said, I doubt that, but even if so that falls far short of the deficits reported by the NCAA. Yes, it is greater than the $900k gap between football and non-football institutions, but of course football is significantly responsible for costs in other sports because of the need to satisfy title IX.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/rese...s-expenses

** That of course doesn't even address the moral issue of using athletics to get student tuition and room/board money, at a time when the public thinks that athletes should be compensated by their universities, not milked as cash cows themselves.
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2020 10:48 AM by quo vadis.)
03-26-2020 10:39 AM
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teamvsn Offline
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
Quo, I think you need to do some research to familiarize yourself with the lower levels of athletics. You've had two pages of people telling you that athletics at the D2, D3 and NAIA level is a money maker for the college in question, after a previous thread had many more people (including myself) telling you the same thing, yet you are still in denial. Go to the football roster pages of some of the private schools at these levels and look to see how many of the players are "local". That would be a good indication of their likelihood of attending that school without being on a roster. Yes, you will find public schools are better represented with local talent, but you may be surprised to find how many of those have players that didn't pick the most local school. And why? Because they were recruited to play football.
03-26-2020 11:50 AM
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
The one point that hasn't been made here is that economically speaking, higher education is counter cyclical with the economy. When there's a recession, young people sit it out and go to college instead. When the economy is booming, it's harder for them to justify foregoing a good wage to attend college, and pay tuition to do so. So if there is a prolonged recession from this, it will be good for colleges.

So the real question, if this ISN'T a prolonged recession, is if the school can withstand the financial shock of lost room & board from the Spring Semester/Quarter. Probably not a problem for most athletic schools, because while they have lost that revenue they also aren't have to pay for athletic travel and are able to cut other costs on-campus because no one is there. There will still be a shock but probably not as much as you would think.
03-26-2020 11:56 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-26-2020 10:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  it seems pretty obvious that the price of choosing a school because of football is steep and the payoff is basically non-existent, which makes one question if it's happening.

This is where you're not understanding the picture, Quo.

Imagine Joseph Gribble from King of the Hill, aged to his junior and senior year in high school. He's starting for Arlen High, but not really a sought-after FCS prospect. He's getting mostly C's and D's, let's say a 970 SAT.

He's not getting into any of the good UT's. North Texas he's well below the 25% of acceptances. Texas A&M Commerce? Nope.

So he can go to an out-of-state public school, get financial aid and loans.

Or, his coach at Arlen knows a coach at (googling) East Texas Baptist University. (A real Division III school that I just googled up). Joseph is a hard worker, a good teammate, Arlen's coach will vouch for him. ETBU's coach can get Joseph admitted as long as Joseph gets his diploma. (This is not the first kid to go from Arlen High to ETBU to play football)

So Joseph gets to play football at ETBU. Coaches can always get the second-string SOME playing time.

Quo, what you don't seem to comprehend--Joseph isn't playing football to get to college or to get to the NFL or whatever. He LIKES playing football. So he'll go to a college that lets him play football instead of one that doesn't. With financial aid and loans, as far as a 19 year old kid is concerned the money is the same--to save any real money he'd have to stay home and do two years at Arlen Community College.

Which is perceived as a loser move compared to going to a four-year college.


Quote:** That of course doesn't even address the moral issue of using athletics to get student tuition and room/board money, at a time when the public thinks that athletes should be compensated by their universities, not milked as cash cows themselves.

That is a separate issue. But Joseph isn't getting compensated for playing at Arlen High, and there are more people watching the games on Friday night in Arlen than on Saturday afternoons at ETBU.
03-26-2020 12:14 PM
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johnintx Online
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-26-2020 12:14 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 10:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  it seems pretty obvious that the price of choosing a school because of football is steep and the payoff is basically non-existent, which makes one question if it's happening.

This is where you're not understanding the picture, Quo.

Imagine Joseph Gribble from King of the Hill, aged to his junior and senior year in high school. He's starting for Arlen High, but not really a sought-after FCS prospect. He's getting mostly C's and D's, let's say a 970 SAT.

He's not getting into any of the good UT's. North Texas he's well below the 25% of acceptances. Texas A&M Commerce? Nope.

So he can go to an out-of-state public school, get financial aid and loans.

Or, his coach at Arlen knows a coach at (googling) East Texas Baptist University. (A real Division III school that I just googled up). Joseph is a hard worker, a good teammate, Arlen's coach will vouch for him. ETBU's coach can get Joseph admitted as long as Joseph gets his diploma. (This is not the first kid to go from Arlen High to ETBU to play football)

So Joseph gets to play football at ETBU. Coaches can always get the second-string SOME playing time.

Quo, what you don't seem to comprehend--Joseph isn't playing football to get to college or to get to the NFL or whatever. He LIKES playing football. So he'll go to a college that lets him play football instead of one that doesn't. With financial aid and loans, as far as a 19 year old kid is concerned the money is the same--to save any real money he'd have to stay home and do two years at Arlen Community College.

Which is perceived as a loser move compared to going to a four-year college.


Quote:** That of course doesn't even address the moral issue of using athletics to get student tuition and room/board money, at a time when the public thinks that athletes should be compensated by their universities, not milked as cash cows themselves.

That is a separate issue. But Joseph isn't getting compensated for playing at Arlen High, and there are more people watching the games on Friday night in Arlen than on Saturday afternoons at ETBU.

Joseph Gribble to ETBU..that's gold. And Bobby Hill could go there as his roommate.

Yes, ETBU is a real school in Marshall, Texas. I've been there.

Seriously, though, that's very well illustrated.
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2020 12:58 PM by johnintx.)
03-26-2020 12:47 PM
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
teamvsn and johnbragg make some very good points. I chose to attend Arkansas Tech to play football way back in our NAIA days. I visited only one other school. What helped me decide on ATU was that I knew people there (not just from high school but my neighborhood too), I formed a quick bond with our head coach (my grandparents lived next door to coach), and it was less than 1.5 hours from Little Rock. Looking back and knowing what I know about myself now I made the perfect choice because I would have failed miserably at a large D1 school without a doubt.
03-26-2020 01:58 PM
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RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-26-2020 12:14 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 10:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  it seems pretty obvious that the price of choosing a school because of football is steep and the payoff is basically non-existent, which makes one question if it's happening.

This is where you're not understanding the picture, Quo.

Imagine Joseph Gribble from King of the Hill, aged to his junior and senior year in high school. He's starting for Arlen High, but not really a sought-after FCS prospect. He's getting mostly C's and D's, let's say a 970 SAT.

He's not getting into any of the good UT's. North Texas he's well below the 25% of acceptances. Texas A&M Commerce? Nope.

So he can go to an out-of-state public school, get financial aid and loans.

Or, his coach at Arlen knows a coach at (googling) East Texas Baptist University. (A real Division III school that I just googled up). Joseph is a hard worker, a good teammate, Arlen's coach will vouch for him. ETBU's coach can get Joseph admitted as long as Joseph gets his diploma. (This is not the first kid to go from Arlen High to ETBU to play football)

So Joseph gets to play football at ETBU. Coaches can always get the second-string SOME playing time.

Quo, what you don't seem to comprehend--Joseph isn't playing football to get to college or to get to the NFL or whatever. He LIKES playing football. So he'll go to a college that lets him play football instead of one that doesn't. With financial aid and loans, as far as a 19 year old kid is concerned the money is the same--to save any real money he'd have to stay home and do two years at Arlen Community College.

Which is perceived as a loser move compared to going to a four-year college.


Quote:** That of course doesn't even address the moral issue of using athletics to get student tuition and room/board money, at a time when the public thinks that athletes should be compensated by their universities, not milked as cash cows themselves.

That is a separate issue. But Joseph isn't getting compensated for playing at Arlen High, and there are more people watching the games on Friday night in Arlen than on Saturday afternoons at ETBU.

Absolutely agree.

It's not just the Joseph Gribble-types, either.

Look at the NESCAC schools like Amherst and Williams, which are some of the wealthiest schools in the country. These schools have one-fourth to one-third of their entire student bodies playing a varsity sport in college. When upper middle class families have spent thousands of dollars on club sports and athletic training for their kids over the course of 18 years, being able to continue playing that sport at a varsity level in college is a HUGE selling point for a school. (In turn, being able to play a sport at a high level is looked at by admissions committees as the single greatest hook for applicants when applying to even the most academically prestigious schools, as evidenced by the Operation Varsity Blues college admissions scandal taking direct advantage of that fact through illicit bribes.)

There are plenty of students that will make a choice on their college because they're able to play in the band or orchestra or participate in theater even though they have no delusions that they'll ever be professional performers: they just love doing it and want to keep doing it as long as they can. Those opportunities pretty much go away when you're an adult after graduating college for the vast majority of people.

Frankly, being able to play a varsity sport in college at the Division II or Division III level is an even greater draw by comparison. There is a pretty large number of excellent athletes that played their respective sports at a high level for over a decade (with parents often spending thousands of dollars in the process) that may not be elite enough to play at the Division I level but certainly have the desire to keep playing in college at a lower level if given the opportunity. Those types of athletes aren't necessarily going to be satisfied with recreational-level intramural sports in college, which is where the D2 and D3 schools can come in with a pretty compelling sales pitch.
03-26-2020 02:29 PM
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johnintx Online
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Post: #39
RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-26-2020 11:56 AM)teamvsn Wrote:  The one point that hasn't been made here is that economically speaking, higher education is counter cyclical with the economy. When there's a recession, young people sit it out and go to college instead. When the economy is booming, it's harder for them to justify foregoing a good wage to attend college, and pay tuition to do so. So if there is a prolonged recession from this, it will be good for colleges.

So the real question, if this ISN'T a prolonged recession, is if the school can withstand the financial shock of lost room & board from the Spring Semester/Quarter. Probably not a problem for most athletic schools, because while they have lost that revenue they also aren't have to pay for athletic travel and are able to cut other costs on-campus because no one is there. There will still be a shock but probably not as much as you would think.

Well said. The lost room and board for March, April, and May are a really big deal at this level. But, athletically, at the D2, D3, and NAIA levels, these programs are run on shoestring budgets, so those lost travel costs help absorb some of the other losses.
03-26-2020 03:31 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Will Corona Virus be an impetus for D2 and D3 schools to shutter athletics?
(03-26-2020 11:50 AM)teamvsn Wrote:  Quo, I think you need to do some research to familiarize yourself with the lower levels of athletics. You've had two pages of people telling you that athletics at the D2, D3 and NAIA level is a money maker for the college in question ...

... with zero evidence to back it up, whereas I posted evidence - as in the thread a few weeks ago - showing it doesn't.

Good grief.

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03-26-2020 06:23 PM
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