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Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
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CoastalVANDAL Offline
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Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
Ivy League number one OK I started it .
To me its interesting comparing the Summit vs Big Sky vs Sun Belt kinda thing .
03-25-2020 09:37 AM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Question RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
The Patriot League would be #2. The Big West with five UCs and Hawaii would be up there as well, no lower than 4th.
03-25-2020 09:43 AM
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dbackjon Offline
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 09:43 AM)jdgaucho Wrote:  The Patriot League would be #2. The Big West with five UCs and Hawaii would be up there as well, no lower than 4th.

I would agree with that.


Conferences like Summit and Big Sky that have Flagship or second schools would rank higher, especially since many of them are heavy into research and STEM.

Big Sky has 5 schools in the Shanghai top 1,000 World Universities. Summit is probably similar.
03-25-2020 01:50 PM
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Erictelevision Offline
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
It's a bball conference, but America East is pretty well regarded academically
03-25-2020 02:05 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
There's 27 non-P5 conferences. Here's a guess for how they'd rank:

Ivy
Big West
Patriot

American
Big East
Mountain West

West Coast
Colonial
A-10

Big Sky
Missouri Valley
MAC
America East

C-USA (except Rice; they're really an outlier)
MAAC?
Northeast?
Sun Belt
Horizon

Southern
Southland
Big South
Ohio Valley
Summit

MEAC? - not sure which is better
SWAC? - not sure which is better

WAC
Atlantic Sun
03-25-2020 02:09 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 02:05 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  It's a bball conference, but America East is pretty well regarded academically

Yup - and like the Big Sky and Summit, full of Flagship Universities and Stony Brook is AAU

Only non-P5 D1 Conferences that have AAU members

Ivy: All 8 of course
Big West: UC-Davis (Football Big Sky), UCSB, UCI, UCSD
Patriot - BU
America East: Stony Brook
MAC: Buffalo
AAC: Tulane
C-USA: Rice
03-25-2020 02:18 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 02:09 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  There's 27 non-P5 conferences. Here's a guess for how they'd rank:

Ivy
Big West
Patriot

American
Big East
Mountain West

West Coast
Colonial
A-10

Big Sky
Missouri Valley
MAC
America East

C-USA (except Rice; they're really an outlier)
MAAC?
Northeast?
Sun Belt
Horizon

Southern
Southland
Big South
Ohio Valley
Summit

MEAC? - not sure which is better
SWAC? - not sure which is better

WAC
Atlantic Sun


Not bad. I would put Summit higher with the Dakota Schools and Denver.
03-25-2020 02:19 PM
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Erictelevision Offline
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
UVM considered a Public Ivy
03-25-2020 02:27 PM
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Sactowndog Offline
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 02:18 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:05 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  It's a bball conference, but America East is pretty well regarded academically

Yup - and like the Big Sky and Summit, full of Flagship Universities and Stony Brook is AAU

Only non-P5 D1 Conferences that have AAU members

Ivy: All 8 of course
Big West: UC-Davis (Football Big Sky), UCSB, UCI, UCSD
Patriot - BU
America East: Stony Brook
MAC: Buffalo
AAC: Tulane
C-USA: Rice

They aren’t D1 but the SCIAC with Cal Tech would be another. But in this case I’m not sure AAU is the best way to rank these schools. For example Cal Poly SLO is not AAU or national but is the top regional public school in the west and is extremely well regarded.
03-25-2020 02:40 PM
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
Southern should be a lot higher. They have some pretty solid private schools along with VMI and only 4 "regional" publics.
03-25-2020 03:30 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 02:40 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:18 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:05 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  It's a bball conference, but America East is pretty well regarded academically

Yup - and like the Big Sky and Summit, full of Flagship Universities and Stony Brook is AAU

Only non-P5 D1 Conferences that have AAU members

Ivy: All 8 of course
Big West: UC-Davis (Football Big Sky), UCSB, UCI, UCSD
Patriot - BU
America East: Stony Brook
MAC: Buffalo
AAC: Tulane
C-USA: Rice

They aren’t D1 but the SCIAC with Cal Tech would be another. But in this case I’m not sure AAU is the best way to rank these schools. For example Cal Poly SLO is not AAU or national but is the top regional public school in the west and is extremely well regarded.

You would really need to do a composite with a variety of rankings to capture a better idea.
03-25-2020 03:36 PM
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 02:18 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:05 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  It's a bball conference, but America East is pretty well regarded academically

Yup - and like the Big Sky and Summit, full of Flagship Universities and Stony Brook is AAU

Only non-P5 D1 Conferences that have AAU members

Ivy: All 8 of course
Big West: UC-Davis (Football Big Sky), UCSB, UCI, UCSD
Patriot - BU
America East: Stony Brook
MAC: Buffalo
AAC: Tulane
C-USA: Rice

Excluding P5 and Ivy League schools, there are 13 D1 schools in the US News & World Report top 50 national universities:

17 Rice (Conference USA)
24 Georgetown (Big East)
34 UC Santa Barbara (Big West)
36 UC Irvine (Big West)
37 UC San Diego (Big West)
39 UC Davis (Big West)
40 Boston University (Patriot League)
40 William & Mary (Colonial Athletic Association)
40 Northeastern (Colonial Athletic Association)
40 Tulane (American Athletic Conference)
46 Villanova (Big East)
50 Lehigh (Patriot League)
50 Pepperdine (West Coast Conference)

Totals by conference:

Big West - 4 (34, 36, 37, 39)
Big East - 2 (24, 46)
Patriot League - 2 (40, 50)
Colonial Athletic Association - 2 (40, 40)
Conference USA - 1 (17)
American Athletic Association - 1 (40)
West Coast Conference - 1 (50)

Taking this together with the AAU member data, the Big West would rank second after the Ivy League, followed by the Patriot League and then probably the Big East.
03-25-2020 04:10 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 02:09 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  There's 27 non-P5 conferences. Here's a guess for how they'd rank:

Ivy
Big West
Patriot

American
Big East
Mountain West

West Coast
Colonial
A-10

Big Sky
Missouri Valley
MAC
America East

C-USA (except Rice; they're really an outlier)
MAAC?
Northeast?
Sun Belt
Horizon

Southern
Southland
Big South
Ohio Valley
Summit

MEAC? - not sure which is better
SWAC? - not sure which is better

WAC
Atlantic Sun


Very well done. I suppose we could put the Colonial in the No. 2 tier. And I might put C-USA in the No. 4 tier. In addition to Rice, FIU and FAU (it seems) are rather well regarded academically. Good job.
03-25-2020 04:21 PM
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Post: #14
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 04:10 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:18 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:05 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  It's a bball conference, but America East is pretty well regarded academically

Yup - and like the Big Sky and Summit, full of Flagship Universities and Stony Brook is AAU

Only non-P5 D1 Conferences that have AAU members

Ivy: All 8 of course
Big West: UC-Davis (Football Big Sky), UCSB, UCI, UCSD
Patriot - BU
America East: Stony Brook
MAC: Buffalo
AAC: Tulane
C-USA: Rice

Excluding P5 and Ivy League schools, there are 13 D1 schools in the US News & World Report top 50 national universities:

17 Rice (Conference USA)
24 Georgetown (Big East)
34 UC Santa Barbara (Big West)
36 UC Irvine (Big West)
37 UC San Diego (Big West)
39 UC Davis (Big West)
40 Boston University (Patriot League)
40 William & Mary (Colonial Athletic Association)
40 Northeastern (Colonial Athletic Association)
40 Tulane (American Athletic Conference)
46 Villanova (Big East)
50 Lehigh (Patriot League)
50 Pepperdine (West Coast Conference)

Totals by conference:

Big West - 4 (34, 36, 37, 39)
Big East - 2 (24, 46)
Patriot League - 2 (40, 50)
Colonial Athletic Association - 2 (40, 40)
Conference USA - 1 (17)
American Athletic Association - 1 (40)
West Coast Conference - 1 (50)

Taking this together with the AAU member data, the Big West would rank second after the Ivy League, followed by the Patriot League and then probably the Big East.

The Lieden ranking is better. It ranks the top 173 schools by research output.
Here it is, excluding P5, D2, D3, and Ivies:

12 Univ California - San Diego - Big West
44 Univ Cincinnati - American
46 Univ California - Irvine - Big West
48 Boston Univ - Patriot
54 Univ Illinois - Chicago - Horizon
56 Univ Connecticut - Big East
61 Univ Alabama - Birmingham - C-USA
65 Indiana Univ - Purdue Univ Indianapolis - Horizon
71 Univ S Florida - Tampa - American
73 Univ California - Santa Barbara - Big West
75 Colorado State Univ - Mountain West
76 Univ Maryland - Baltimore - America East
81 Stony Brook Univ - SUNY - America East
82 Virginia Commonwealth Univ - Atlantic 10
87 Univ Massachusetts Amherst - Atlantic 10
91 Univ Hawaii - Manoa - Mountain West
93 Univ California - Riverside - Big West
94 Temple Univ - American
95 Univ New Mexico - Mountain West
96 Univ Houston - Houston - American
97 Univ Delaware - America East
98 George Washington Univ - Atlantic 10

Conferences ranked:
American - 4 in top 100, 8 in top 173
Big West - 4 in top 100, 4 in top 173
Mountain West - 3 in top 100, 8 in top 173
America East - 3 in top 100, 7 in top 173
Atlantic 10 - 3 in top 100, 7 in top 173
Horizon - 2 in top 100, 3 in top 173
Conference USA - 1 in top 100, 8 in top 173
Big East - 1 in top 100, 2 in top 173
Patriot - 1 in top 100, 2 in top 173
Mid-American - 0 in top 100, 4 in top 173
Missouri Valley - 0 in top 100, 2 in top 173
Sun Belt - 0 in top 100, 2 in top 173
Big Sky - 0 in top 100, 1 in top 173
Colonial - 0 in top 100, 1 in top 173
Summit - 0 in top 100, 1 in top 173
WAC - 0 in top 100, 1 in top 173
West Coast - 0 in top 100, 1 in top 173


American, Mountain West, A-10, Conference USA and America East do much better by this metric than US News.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 04:44 PM by Captain Bearcat.)
03-25-2020 04:33 PM
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RecoveringHillbilly Offline
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 04:33 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  American, Mountain West, A-10, Conference USA and America East do much better by this metric than US News.

Left out Buffalo at #70 for 5 in the MAC. Though, based on undergrad rankings only Miami (OH) as a Public Ivey comes close enough to a MAC peer for UB.
03-25-2020 04:57 PM
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HawaiiMongoose Offline
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 04:33 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  91 Univ Hawaii - Manoa - Mountain West

American, Mountain West, A-10, Conference USA and America East do much better by this metric than US News.

You missed the Big West's UC Davis which is #21 in the ranking.

Also it would be more appropriate to place Hawaii in the Big West, as that's where we play all of our sports (including three in which Hawaii was ranked in the top 5 nationally in 2019-2020) other than football.

That would give the Big West a total of six schools (more than half the conference) in the Lieden top 100, including three of the top four.

Case closed.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 05:19 PM by HawaiiMongoose.)
03-25-2020 05:00 PM
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Post: #17
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 04:33 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 04:10 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:18 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:05 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  It's a bball conference, but America East is pretty well regarded academically

Yup - and like the Big Sky and Summit, full of Flagship Universities and Stony Brook is AAU

Only non-P5 D1 Conferences that have AAU members

Ivy: All 8 of course
Big West: UC-Davis (Football Big Sky), UCSB, UCI, UCSD
Patriot - BU
America East: Stony Brook
MAC: Buffalo
AAC: Tulane
C-USA: Rice

Excluding P5 and Ivy League schools, there are 13 D1 schools in the US News & World Report top 50 national universities:

17 Rice (Conference USA)
24 Georgetown (Big East)
34 UC Santa Barbara (Big West)
36 UC Irvine (Big West)
37 UC San Diego (Big West)
39 UC Davis (Big West)
40 Boston University (Patriot League)
40 William & Mary (Colonial Athletic Association)
40 Northeastern (Colonial Athletic Association)
40 Tulane (American Athletic Conference)
46 Villanova (Big East)
50 Lehigh (Patriot League)
50 Pepperdine (West Coast Conference)

Totals by conference:

Big West - 4 (34, 36, 37, 39)
Big East - 2 (24, 46)
Patriot League - 2 (40, 50)
Colonial Athletic Association - 2 (40, 40)
Conference USA - 1 (17)
American Athletic Association - 1 (40)
West Coast Conference - 1 (50)

Taking this together with the AAU member data, the Big West would rank second after the Ivy League, followed by the Patriot League and then probably the Big East.

The Lieden ranking is better. It ranks the top 173 schools by research output.
Here it is, excluding P5, D2, D3, and Ivies:

12 Univ California - San Diego - Big West
44 Univ Cincinnati - American
46 Univ California - Irvine - Big West
48 Boston Univ - Patriot
54 Univ Illinois - Chicago - Horizon
56 Univ Connecticut - Big East
61 Univ Alabama - Birmingham - C-USA
65 Indiana Univ - Purdue Univ Indianapolis - Horizon
71 Univ S Florida - Tampa - American
73 Univ California - Santa Barbara - Big West
75 Colorado State Univ - Mountain West
76 Univ Maryland - Baltimore - America East
81 Stony Brook Univ - SUNY - America East
82 Virginia Commonwealth Univ - Atlantic 10
87 Univ Massachusetts Amherst - Atlantic 10
91 Univ Hawaii - Manoa - Mountain West
93 Univ California - Riverside - Big West
94 Temple Univ - American
95 Univ New Mexico - Mountain West
96 Univ Houston - Houston - American
97 Univ Delaware - America East
98 George Washington Univ - Atlantic 10

Conferences ranked:
American - 4 in top 100, 8 in top 173
Big West - 4 in top 100, 4 in top 173
Mountain West - 3 in top 100, 8 in top 173
America East - 3 in top 100, 7 in top 173
Atlantic 10 - 3 in top 100, 7 in top 173
Horizon - 2 in top 100, 3 in top 173
Conference USA - 1 in top 100, 8 in top 173
Big East - 1 in top 100, 2 in top 173
Patriot - 1 in top 100, 2 in top 173
Mid-American - 0 in top 100, 4 in top 173
Missouri Valley - 0 in top 100, 2 in top 173
Sun Belt - 0 in top 100, 2 in top 173
Big Sky - 0 in top 100, 1 in top 173
Colonial - 0 in top 100, 1 in top 173
Summit - 0 in top 100, 1 in top 173
WAC - 0 in top 100, 1 in top 173
West Coast - 0 in top 100, 1 in top 173


American, Mountain West, A-10, Conference USA and America East do much better by this metric than US News.

The Lieden rankings provide valuable insight into research capabilities; research is only one component into the academic review of an institution. Many do not like using USNWR academic rankings. However, their ranking system is comprised of several factors (graduation rates, social mobility, faculty resources, expert opinion, financial resources, student excellence and alumni giving). For example, Notre Dame, under Lieden, is #117 overall; Penn State is 21st. Penn State's admissions rate is 50%, where as ND's is 18%. Again, Lieden is just viewing through the research lens, where as USNWR views multiple lens.
03-25-2020 05:11 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 05:00 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 04:33 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  91 Univ Hawaii - Manoa - Mountain West

American, Mountain West, A-10, Conference USA and America East do much better by this metric than US News.

It would be more appropriate to place Hawaii in the Big West, as that's where we play all of our sports (including three in which Hawaii was ranked in the top 5 nationally in 2019-2020) other than football.

Either that and be consistent and give UC-Davis to the Big Sky :)
03-25-2020 05:12 PM
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 04:10 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:18 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:05 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  It's a bball conference, but America East is pretty well regarded academically

Yup - and like the Big Sky and Summit, full of Flagship Universities and Stony Brook is AAU

Only non-P5 D1 Conferences that have AAU members

Ivy: All 8 of course
Big West: UC-Davis (Football Big Sky), UCSB, UCI, UCSD
Patriot - BU
America East: Stony Brook
MAC: Buffalo
AAC: Tulane
C-USA: Rice

Excluding P5 and Ivy League schools, there are 13 D1 schools in the US News & World Report top 50 national universities:

17 Rice (Conference USA)
24 Georgetown (Big East)
34 UC Santa Barbara (Big West)
36 UC Irvine (Big West)
37 UC San Diego (Big West)
39 UC Davis (Big West)
40 Boston University (Patriot League)
40 William & Mary (Colonial Athletic Association)
40 Northeastern (Colonial Athletic Association)
40 Tulane (American Athletic Conference)
46 Villanova (Big East)
50 Lehigh (Patriot League)
50 Pepperdine (West Coast Conference)

Totals by conference:

Big West - 4 (34, 36, 37, 39)
Big East - 2 (24, 46)
Patriot League - 2 (40, 50)
Colonial Athletic Association - 2 (40, 40)
Conference USA - 1 (17)
American Athletic Association - 1 (40)
West Coast Conference - 1 (50)

Taking this together with the AAU member data, the Big West would rank second after the Ivy League, followed by the Patriot League and then probably the Big East.

Navy and Army (Patriot League) are not included?
03-25-2020 05:41 PM
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Post: #20
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
I did a few conferences from USNWR. Happy to do others upon request.

Big East
#24 Georgetown
#46 Villanova
#64 UConn
#84 Marquette
#104 Creighton
#125 DePaul
#139 Seton Hall
#179 St. John's
Regional NE #1 Providence
Regional MW #1 Butler
Regional MW #5 Xavier

AAC
#40 Tulane
#64 SMU
#104 Temple
#104 USF
#121 Tulsa
#139 Cincinnati
#166 UCF
#185 Houston
#228 ECU
#272 Memphis
#293-381 Wichita State

Atlantic 10
#23 Richmond
#64 UMass
#70 George Washington
#74 Fordham
#97 Saint Louis
#132 Dayton
#132 Duquesne
#153 George Mason
#162 VCU
#166 Rhode Island
Liberal Arts National #17 Davidson
Regional NE #10 St. Joseph
Regional NE #19 St. Bonaventure
Regional NE #38 La Salle

MWC
#147 San Diego State
#166 Colorado State
#166 Hawaii
#211 Fresno State
#218 New Mexico
#228 Wyoming
#240 Nevada
#254 Utah State
#293-#381 UNLV
#293-#381 Boise State
Regional W #24 San Jose State
03-26-2020 08:51 AM
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