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Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
(03-24-2020 03:04 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-24-2020 02:52 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Surprised no Notre Dame fan has said "1" yet.
07-coffee3

Nah, Notre Dame enjoyed the 16-team Big East just fine. Their real answer is "conferences are for basketball".

And hockey.
03-24-2020 03:56 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
Depends on ideal for who

Ideal for fans is a 9 team conference of local rivals regardless of competitiveness within driving distance so you get full round robin of equal home and away in both football and basketball

The old SWC would be an example if this

However this model only works in the world of nostalgia

In the real world the answer is however many is needed to secure the top brands in your region to have a monetary advantage over small regional conferences like the one described above
03-25-2020 07:26 AM
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jedclampett Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
(03-23-2020 10:24 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Conference size will continue to rise as long as

1) There are Texases and Oklahomas and other schools attractive to the "attractive" conferences to want.

2) The attractive conferences don't have the guts to kick out their "dead weight".

There are such schools, and Oklahoma is one of them, but I don't believe that Texas is. They have a terrible reputation for their "my way or the high way" negotiating approach with conference partners.

Regarding not having the "guts to kick out their dead weight," perhaps they value stability and existing rivalries. Besides, this year's "dead weight" might be next year's upstart.

If conferences started kicking out their worst programs every 2-3 years, there would be utter pandemonium, and college football would start to resemble the Dow Jones Stock Exchange even more than it already does.
03-25-2020 08:59 AM
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OdinFrigg Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
16 would be enough. Beyond that, it becomes umbrella organizations with divisive, internal factions.
03-25-2020 09:54 AM
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Post: #45
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
(03-23-2020 11:42 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(03-23-2020 11:12 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(03-23-2020 06:32 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(03-22-2020 09:10 PM)esayem Wrote:  10

I'm just curious as to who's the 10 you would have in the ACC then?

Virginia
Virginia Tech
VMI
Richmond
William & Mary
Wake Forest
North Carolina
Duke
NC State
Davidson

Close but I think you might want to consider:

Virginia Tech
UVa
Carolina
State
Wake Forest
Dook
South Carolina
Clemson
Georgia Tech
Maryland

The TRUE ACC

NORTH
Maryland
Navy^
West Virginia
Marshall
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Old Dominion
Liberty
Richmond*
Georgetown*
VCU*


SOUTH
Wake Forest
NC State
UNC
Duke
ECU
Appalachian State
Clemson
South Carolina
Davidson*
College of Charleston*

ACC Championship Football:
Charlotte

ACC Basketball Tournament:
Charlotte, Greensboro, Raleigh, D.C.

ACC Baseball Championship
Durham, Charlotte, Richmond

Thanksgiving Day Games
Maryland vs. Navy
West Virginia vs. Marshall
Virginia vs. Virginia Tech
Liberty vs. Old Dominion
Appalachian State vs. Wake Forest
UNC vs. Duke
NC State vs. ECU
Clemson vs. South Carolina
03-25-2020 10:13 AM
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Post: #46
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
(03-24-2020 02:01 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(03-23-2020 10:26 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  16 seems awfully large, considering that three of the P5 conferences (ACC, PAC-8, Big-8) started out with 8 teams. In a 16-team conference, the two divisions would function like conferences, and the number of inter-conference FB games would be as low as 1 per season (7 division games, 1 non-divisional games, 4 OOC games). In what sense are teams in the same "conference" if they hardly ever play the teams in the other division? ...

Of course, that is if you elect to do it that way.

Halfway between fixed divisions and the WACky 4x4 pods on an all-way rotation are alternating divisions, with the two "outer" groups of four anchoring the divisions which swap over every second year.

So in the Big Ten, with 9 conference games, you play your seven games in division, so you play the three schools in your group every year and the eight schools in the two groups rotating into your division twice in four years. And that leaves two cross division games to play against two of the four schools in the group that never joins your division, so you also play them twice in four years.

As to whether it's better cohesion than two divisions of seven ... no, of course not. You lose something each pair you add above twelve, which lets you play five in your division every year and six in the other division twice in four years, and have 4 OOC games available. 14 is "more unwieldy" than 12, 16 "more unwieldy" than 14. But for the right two schools, you'd consider it.

Eighteen really needs freedom to have conference semi-finals, since then you can have three divisions of six, play two cross-division against each of the divisions in a three year rotation, and the highest ranking runner-up is hosted in the semi-final by the highest ranking division champion not in its division, the highest ranking remaining division winner hosts the lowest ranking division winner in the other semi.

18 you either do two of 9 or you could do a 4-5-4-5. For example a hypothetical Big 10+8:
1 Nebraska, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota
2 Michigan, Michigan St., Ohio St., Northwestern, Illinois
3 Indiana, Purdue, Penn St., Rutgers
4 Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Duke, Georgia Tech
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 12:28 PM by bullet.)
03-25-2020 11:09 AM
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Post: #47
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
There's theory on optimum team sizes in business. The idea is that the bigger you get the more you are likely to split into subgroups.
https://www.getflow.com/blog/optimal-tea...oductivity
The above says 4 to 20 with most opting for the lower end with tech teams being around 7. Now a conference is a different concept, but the idea of working together isn't.
03-25-2020 11:14 AM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
8 or 10
03-25-2020 11:42 AM
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Native Georgian Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
(03-22-2020 02:42 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  16 is totally workable provided you can find a way to divide your teams into workable pods or divisions that preserve the important regional and historic rivalries.
This ^^^

The 16-WAC didn’t break-up because of 16. It broke up because they couldn’t come up with a 4x4 configuration that enabled teams to play who they wanted to play each year.
03-25-2020 08:27 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
(03-25-2020 08:27 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(03-22-2020 02:42 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  16 is totally workable provided you can find a way to divide your teams into workable pods or divisions that preserve the important regional and historic rivalries.
This ^^^

The 16-WAC didn’t break-up because of 16. It broke up because they couldn’t come up with a 4x4 configuration that enabled teams to play who they wanted to play each year.

The pods set up always looks cheesy since they're usually so closely grouped, it reminds me of high school ball. I wouldn't mind seeing them set up more like the ACC's divisions
03-25-2020 08:45 PM
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ken d Online
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Post: #51
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
Since we have already passed the point of unwieldiness (IMO), I tried to combine an exercise to construct my ideal ACC conference with one where I rearranged all 130 FBS schools. I came up with seven conferences of 12 each (2 divisions of 6) and four with 10 schools each. They are (with their 10 year average Sagarin rating in parentheses):

SEC (80): Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Mississippi State, South Carolina, Miami, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Kentucky and Vanderbilt

ACC (78): Clemson, Georgia, Florida State, Florida, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, NC State, Duke and Virginia

Big 12 (78): South: Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Arkansas, Texas Tech, and Nebraska; North: TCU, Texas A&M, Kansas State, Missouri, Iowa State and Kansas

PAC (77): Oregon, Stanford, Washington, Southern Cal, Utah, Arizona State, UCLA, Arizona, Washington State, Cal, Oregon State and Colorado

B1G (77): Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan, Michigan State, Iowa, Northwestern, Minnesota, Indiana, Purdue and Illinois

AAC (71): East: Baylor, Central Florida, Houston, Temple, Memphis, and South Florida; West: Boise State, BYU, Navy, San Diego State, Air Force and SMU

NEC (New Eastern Conference)(72): Penn State, West Virginia, Louisville, Pitt, Cincinnati, Boston College, Syracuse, Maryland, Wake Forest and Rutgers

MAC (59): Toledo, Northern Illinois, Ohio, Western Michigan, Bowling Green, Central Michigan, Buffalo, Ball State, Miami (O), Kent State, Eastern Michigan, and Akron

CUSA (59): Louisiana Tech, Marshall, Western Kentucky, Southern Miss, Middle Tennessee, Florida Atlantic, UAB, North Texas, Rice, Florida International, Old Dominion, and Charlotte

SBC (59): Appalachian State, Arkansas State, Tulsa, Georgia Southern, Louisiana, Troy, Tulane, LA Monroe, Coastal Carolina, South Alabama, Texas State and Georgia State

MWC (59): Utah State, Fresno State, Nevada, Colorado State, Wyoming, Hawaii, San Jose State, UNLV, New Mexico, UT San Antonio, UTEP and New Mexico State

INDY: Notre Dame, East Carolina, Army, UConn, Liberty and UMass

That enables a CFP that includes the seven power conference champions plus the highest ranked team from the G4 and Independents.

Using the individual 2019 year ranks as a substitute for conference champs (since they weren't already in their new conferences) the CFP would have been:

#1 LSU vs #8 Baylor
#4 Oklahoma vs #5 Oregon

#2 Ohio State vs #7 Notre Dame
#3 Clemson vs #6 Penn State

Of course, none of this could possibly happen. But it is fantasy after all, so why not fantasize?
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2020 06:48 PM by ken d.)
03-28-2020 04:15 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
The best number is probably 8 or 10.

Beyond 12, egos start getting in the way. No one wants to recruit from 14th place.
03-28-2020 05:09 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
(03-25-2020 08:27 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(03-22-2020 02:42 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  16 is totally workable provided you can find a way to divide your teams into workable pods or divisions that preserve the important regional and historic rivalries.
This ^^^

The 16-WAC didn’t break-up because of 16. It broke up because they couldn’t come up with a 4x4 configuration that enabled teams to play who they wanted to play each year.

And you are even more likely to have that situation with the SEC and Big 10.
03-29-2020 01:06 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
While acknowledging that my post #51 will never happen, for any number of reasons, I believe an SEC with as many as 24 teams could work, and could be formed with the cooperation of ESPN (especially their financial cooperation). Here is one possibility. Three divisions of 8 teams each. Each team is assigned one annual crossover opponent (shown in parentheses), but only the 7 division games are used to determine the Division champions for CCT purposes.

West:

LSU (Tennessee)
Oklahoma (Virginia Tech)
Texas A&M (NC State)
Mississippi State (Auburn)
Texas (North Carolina)
Ole Miss (Alabama)
Arkansas (Vanderbilt)
Texas Tech (Virginia)

Central:

Alabama (Ole Miss)
Georgia (Georgia Tech)
Auburn (Mississippi State)
Florida (Florida State)
South Carolina (Clemson)
Tennessee (LSU)
Kentucky (Louisville)
Vanderbilt (Arkansas)

East:

Clemson (South Carolina)
Florida State (Florida)
Virginia Tech (Oklahoma)
Louisville (Kentucky)
Georgia Tech (Georgia)
North Carolina (Texas)
NC State (Texas A&M)
Virginia (Texas Tech)

In this configuration, all existing rivalry games remain in place, but now as conference games. Each division has four annual crossover games against the other two divisions. No existing rivalries need to be accommodated by an OOC game between two conference teams, but with an 8 game conference schedule members are both allowed and encouraged to arrange such games as they mutually desire. Everybody who wants seven home games can have them.

I only left one current SEC team out of this lineup. To facilitate the B1G to do something similar to this, I replaced Missouri with Texas Tech in the SEC. The Tigers would become part of the B1G Central, along with Colorado, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Northwestern and Minnesota, while the four California schools, the two Arizona schools plus Oregon and Washington form the B1G West division.

These two super conferences could opt out of the CFP, and replace it with conference semifinal games featuring the three division champs plus the highest ranked non-champion. The semifinal winners would play on New Year's Day at the Rose Bowl (B1G) and the Sugar Bowl (SEC) with the two conference champions then facing each other at the College Bowl at Jerry World.
(This post was last modified: 03-30-2020 12:58 PM by ken d.)
03-30-2020 11:20 AM
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RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
(03-30-2020 11:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  While acknowledging that my post #51 will never happen, for any number of reasons, I believe an SEC with as many as 24 teams could work, and could be formed with the cooperation of ESPN (especially their financial cooperation). Here is one possibility. Three divisions of 8 teams each. Each team is assigned one annual crossover opponent (shown in parentheses), but only the 7 division games are used to determine the Division champions for CCT purposes.

West:

LSU (Tennessee)
Oklahoma (Virginia Tech)
Texas A&M (NC State)
Mississippi State (Auburn)
Texas (North Carolina)
Ole Miss (Alabama)
Arkansas (Vanderbilt)
Texas Tech (Virginia)

Central:

Alabama (Ole Miss)
Georgia (Georgia Tech)
Auburn (Mississippi State)
Florida (Florida State)
South Carolina (Clemson)
Tennessee (LSU)
Kentucky (Louisville)
Vanderbilt (Arkansas)

East:

Clemson (South Carolina)
Florida State (Florida)
Virginia Tech (Oklahoma)
Louisville (Kentucky)
Georgia Tech (Georgia)
North Carolina (Texas)
NC State (Texas A&M)
Virginia (Texas Tech)

In this configuration, all existing rivalry games remain in place, but now as conference games. Each division has four annual crossover games against the other two divisions. No existing rivalries need to be accommodated by an OOC game between two conference teams, but with an 8 game conference schedule members are both allowed and encouraged to arrange such games as they mutually desire. Everybody who wants seven home games can have them.

I only left one current SEC team out of this lineup. To facilitate the B1G to do something similar to this, I replaced Missouri with Texas Tech in the SEC. The Tigers would become part of the B1G Central, along with Colorado, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Northwestern and Minnesota, while the four California schools, the two Arizona schools plus Oregon and Washington form the B1G West division.

These two super conferences could opt out of the CFP, and replace it with conference semifinal games featuring the three division champs plus the highest ranked non-champion. The semifinal winners would play on New Year's Day at the Rose Bowl (B1G) and the Sugar Bowl (SEC) with the two conference champions then facing each other at the College Bowl at Jerry World.

Taking those same 24 teams:

Southeast Conference
East
Georgia
Florida
Tennessee
Kentucky
Georgia Tech
FSU
West
Auburn
Alabama
Ole Miss
Miss. St.
Vanderbilt
Louisville

Southeast and west Conference
Atlantic
South Carolina
Clemson
Virginia
Virginia Tech
North Carolina
North Carolina St.
Gulf
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
Oklahoma
LSU
Arkansas

5-0-3-2 schedule. You get everyone in your division every year. Everyone in the opposite division home and away over 4 years. Everyone in the other league home and away over 12 years.

Still leaves a few games to be made up as game 11, or an exception to the rotating "3" (ie those teams do a 5-1-2 instead of 5-0-3) Auburn-Georgia, Alabama-Tennessee, Kentucky-Louisville.
03-30-2020 06:52 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
The maximum conference size before being to large (“X” can be expressed as a formula where “F”= the number of conference football games ( if applicable) and “B” = the number of conference basketball games.

X = max{ F+1 , or B/2 +1 }

Assuming no affiliate members and a 9 game conference schedule for football, the max would be 10.
03-30-2020 11:39 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
(03-30-2020 11:39 PM)pki1998 Wrote:  The maximum conference size before being to large (“X” can be expressed as a formula where “F”= the number of conference football games ( if applicable) and “B” = the number of conference basketball games.

X = max{ F+1 , or B/2 +1 }

Assuming no affiliate members and a 9 game conference schedule for football, the max would be 10.

your conclusion does not follow from the formula. It seems to be based on some assumption, such as complete round robin, as required, or else the conference is "unwieldy". There seem to be at least two other unspoken assumptions, but I'll leave that to you to explain.

Perhaps you are confusing "ideal in your minds logic" for "unwieldy", so answering the wrong question.
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ken d Online
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Post: #58
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
(03-30-2020 06:52 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-30-2020 11:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  While acknowledging that my post #51 will never happen, for any number of reasons, I believe an SEC with as many as 24 teams could work, and could be formed with the cooperation of ESPN (especially their financial cooperation). Here is one possibility. Three divisions of 8 teams each. Each team is assigned one annual crossover opponent (shown in parentheses), but only the 7 division games are used to determine the Division champions for CCT purposes.

West:

LSU (Tennessee)
Oklahoma (Virginia Tech)
Texas A&M (NC State)
Mississippi State (Auburn)
Texas (North Carolina)
Ole Miss (Alabama)
Arkansas (Vanderbilt)
Texas Tech (Virginia)

Central:

Alabama (Ole Miss)
Georgia (Georgia Tech)
Auburn (Mississippi State)
Florida (Florida State)
South Carolina (Clemson)
Tennessee (LSU)
Kentucky (Louisville)
Vanderbilt (Arkansas)

East:

Clemson (South Carolina)
Florida State (Florida)
Virginia Tech (Oklahoma)
Louisville (Kentucky)
Georgia Tech (Georgia)
North Carolina (Texas)
NC State (Texas A&M)
Virginia (Texas Tech)

In this configuration, all existing rivalry games remain in place, but now as conference games. Each division has four annual crossover games against the other two divisions. No existing rivalries need to be accommodated by an OOC game between two conference teams, but with an 8 game conference schedule members are both allowed and encouraged to arrange such games as they mutually desire. Everybody who wants seven home games can have them.

I only left one current SEC team out of this lineup. To facilitate the B1G to do something similar to this, I replaced Missouri with Texas Tech in the SEC. The Tigers would become part of the B1G Central, along with Colorado, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Northwestern and Minnesota, while the four California schools, the two Arizona schools plus Oregon and Washington form the B1G West division.

These two super conferences could opt out of the CFP, and replace it with conference semifinal games featuring the three division champs plus the highest ranked non-champion. The semifinal winners would play on New Year's Day at the Rose Bowl (B1G) and the Sugar Bowl (SEC) with the two conference champions then facing each other at the College Bowl at Jerry World.

Taking those same 24 teams:

Southeast Conference
East
Georgia
Florida
Tennessee
Kentucky
Georgia Tech
FSU
West
Auburn
Alabama
Ole Miss
Miss. St.
Vanderbilt
Louisville

Southeast and west Conference
Atlantic
South Carolina
Clemson
Virginia
Virginia Tech
North Carolina
North Carolina St.
Gulf
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
Oklahoma
LSU
Arkansas

5-0-3-2 schedule. You get everyone in your division every year. Everyone in the opposite division home and away over 4 years. Everyone in the other league home and away over 12 years.

Still leaves a few games to be made up as game 11, or an exception to the rotating "3" (ie those teams do a 5-1-2 instead of 5-0-3) Auburn-Georgia, Alabama-Tennessee, Kentucky-Louisville.

My own personal bias is against the notion that every school in a conference must play every other on some sort of schedule. If I had my druthers, I'd be okay if some schools never played each other in the regular season if they didn't want to. As long as every school gets to play the schools they want to play, I'm happy. Keep it simple.

And, with four divisions instead of three, the schedules of division mates will often be different in degree of difficulty. With only division champs determined by these unbalanced schedules eligible for a CCT, you will as often as not have at least one team that qualifies ahead of a clearly superior team. That's ameliorated by 3 champs plus 1 at-large in the CCT.
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
With those 24 schools you have omitted ND, Pitt, Mizzou, Kansas, Miami, Duke, Syracuse, BC, and WF. Should you free them to join the Big -Whatever 10/18/20/24?

WF is the only traditionally South Atlantic of these 9.
Miami is the only school in South Florida
Mizzou is a border state with St. Louis and KC
Pitt is the Paris of Appalachia

My point is that 30 work as well as 24.

At 30 you can have divisions of 5 - 6 divisions champs and 2 wild cards. That would be fun. Or divisions of 6 and 5 divisions, etc.,
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RE: Maximum size before conference gets unwieldy
(Today 12:08 PM)Statefan Wrote:  With those 24 schools you have omitted ND, Pitt, Mizzou, Kansas, Miami, Duke, Syracuse, BC, and WF. Should you free them to join the Big -Whatever 10/18/20/24?

WF is the only traditionally South Atlantic of these 9.
Miami is the only school in South Florida
Mizzou is a border state with St. Louis and KC
Pitt is the Paris of Appalachia

My point is that 30 work as well as 24.

At 30 you can have divisions of 5 - 6 divisions champs and 2 wild cards. That would be fun. Or divisions of 6 and 5 divisions, etc.,

I omitted Notre Dame because they have made it abundantly clear that they have no interest in being in a conference, as long as they have a path to a national championship. In my scenario, there would no longer be a CFP, meaning we would return to having only the mythical national championships in the AP and Coaches' polls as we did since 1936.

Missouri I put into a 24 team B1G (which would kinda need a new name - B1GPACkage came to my depraved mind, but I'm sure they could come up with something more appropriate for a coast-to-coast conference).

From those P5 schools left out, I would propose three other nine member conferences whose champions would have an autobid to an NY6 bowl. They are (in order of their 10 year average Sagarin rating):

ACC (Orange Bowl): West Virginia, Miami, Pitt, UCF, Cincinnati, Boston College, Duke, Syracuse and Wake Forest.

Big 12 (Cotton Bowl): Oklahoma State, TCU, Kansas State, Baylor, Iowa State, Houston, Memphis, SMU and Kansas.

PAC (Fiesta Bowl): Boise State, Utah, BYU, Washington State, San Diego State, Oregon State, Fresno State, Nevada and UNLV.

In addition to these three champions and the 8 semifinalists in the SEC and B1G CCTs, the highest ranked team (as long as they are ranked in the Top 15 of the AP and Coaches' Poll combined) from all other conferences and independents would complete the field of the NY6. If none are in the Top 15, the last spot would go to the highest ranked P5 that didn't qualify otherwise.
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