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Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
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Post: #61
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-21-2020 07:35 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(03-20-2020 03:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  And some things depend on field. If you are looking at engineers, there is definitely a plus for a degree from that trade school on North Avenue.

This is something I have to explain to my students in China. I make the joke about the Chinese student who got offers to study theater arts at NYU and MIT and went to MIT, "because it's MIT" ... and then have to explain the joke, because they are like, "well, yes, of course, it's MIT. It's one of the top ten Universities in the World!"

I'm sure I've mentioned it on this board before, but I had a friend who transferred from UCLA to Kentucky because UK was better in her field.

She was the one who was at UCLA in 1975, UK in 1978 and then was working on her MBA at Houston in the Phi Slamma Jamma years. We joked that every school in the country would be recruiting her for her Phd.
03-21-2020 11:00 AM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-19-2020 10:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 12:41 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 11:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 08:53 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Research and development is the life blood and real measuring stick.

Maybe for some things, but not athletic conference affiliation. I mean Notre Dame is #101 and Cal-State San Diego is #7. That pretty much tells us the relationship between NSF rankings and conference value, eh?

That wasn’t the point of this exercise though.

OK, let's go back to the OP, who takes about "academic strength". Nobody in academia ranks Cal-State San Diego over Notre Dame either.

07-coffee3

No but I think the poster meant to say UCSD and pretty everyone would rank UCSD over Notre Dame.
03-21-2020 11:04 PM
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Erictelevision Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
Is Cal State-San Diego an alternate name for San Diego St.? Are SJ ST. and Fresno St. similar?
03-21-2020 11:12 PM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-21-2020 11:12 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Is Cal State-San Diego an alternate name for San Diego St.? Are SJ ST. and Fresno St. similar?

No San Diego State University is it’s official name. Fresno States official names is Cal State University Fresno. I’m not sure about San Jose State.
03-21-2020 11:31 PM
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johnintx Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-21-2020 11:31 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-21-2020 11:12 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Is Cal State-San Diego an alternate name for San Diego St.? Are SJ ST. and Fresno St. similar?

No San Diego State University is it’s official name. Fresno States official names is Cal State University Fresno. I’m not sure about San Jose State.

I just looked it up, and San Jose State University is the official name of the school. It is the founding campus of the Cal State system.
03-21-2020 11:38 PM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-19-2020 09:22 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 08:32 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 10:06 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 08:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Beyond that.... most in the Big East, A-10, Villanova, Lehigh, Loyola Marymount, etc have fewer resources than MAC schools like Miami or Toledo. I have a friend who was very disappointed when he got a job offer from Gonzaga (#79 in US News) but was rejected from San Diego State (#147). I have friends who work at Loyola Marymount (#65) and Lehigh (#50) and I'm positive most of them would leave immediately if they were offered a position at nearby UC Riverside (#91) or Temple (#118). It would probably be a 30-50% salary increase, and they'd get to teach fewer classes.

Again the Academic Ranking of World Universities lines up with that better than USNWR rankings:

59-66 UC-Riverside
95-116 Temple
138-155 SDSU
156-171 Lehigh
NR Gonzaga
NR Loyola Marymount

It's STEM centric, to be sure, but as a results based ranking, the kinds of things that make a University more attractive to academics often translate into being able to hire academics that generate the results that the ARWU ranks.

And, of course, there's long been a split between what makes a University an excellent place for an undergraduate to pursue a degree and an excellent place for generating academic status.

If I were the AAC, I would be touting the ARWU a lot more than USNews & WR. ARWU has quite a few AAC members in it. Even C-USA has representation!!!

Just a quick glance shows more C-USA teams (9) to AAC (7 - excluding UConn). Possible I missed one or more.

MWC also has 7, MAC 5, SB 2 (one non-FB).
Big Sky has 5 1/2 (5 full, one FB affiliate)

Did you forget about the Big West?
UCSD ranked 18 in the world
UCSB ranked 48 in the world
UCI. ranked 80 in the world
UCD. ranked 90 in the world
UCR. Ranked 151-200 in the world
Hawaii. Ranked 201-250 in the world


The Big West isn’t too far away from the lower tier P5 conferences. Long Beach State and Cal Poly are both top ranked regional schools in the west.
(This post was last modified: 03-22-2020 12:13 AM by Sactowndog.)
03-21-2020 11:43 PM
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Post: #67
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-21-2020 11:04 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 10:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 12:41 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 11:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 08:53 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Research and development is the life blood and real measuring stick.

Maybe for some things, but not athletic conference affiliation. I mean Notre Dame is #101 and Cal-State San Diego is #7. That pretty much tells us the relationship between NSF rankings and conference value, eh?

That wasn’t the point of this exercise though.

OK, let's go back to the OP, who takes about "academic strength". Nobody in academia ranks Cal-State San Diego over Notre Dame either.

07-coffee3

No but I think the poster meant to say UCSD and pretty everyone would rank UCSD over Notre Dame.

Yes, was about to post this. There is not a Cal St-San Diego. San Diego State is in the Cal State system but is actually named San Diego State University. But in any case, the university that is elite in the research rankings is UC-San Diego, which would generally be a step up from most P5 universities. It’s one of the best universities in the country even if it isn’t an athletic powerhouse.
03-21-2020 11:45 PM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-21-2020 11:45 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(03-21-2020 11:04 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 10:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 12:41 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 11:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Maybe for some things, but not athletic conference affiliation. I mean Notre Dame is #101 and Cal-State San Diego is #7. That pretty much tells us the relationship between NSF rankings and conference value, eh?

That wasn’t the point of this exercise though.

OK, let's go back to the OP, who takes about "academic strength". Nobody in academia ranks Cal-State San Diego over Notre Dame either.

07-coffee3

No but I think the poster meant to say UCSD and pretty everyone would rank UCSD over Notre Dame.

Yes, was about to post this. There is not a Cal St-San Diego. San Diego State is in the Cal State system but is actually named San Diego State University. But in any case, the university that is elite in the research rankings is UC-San Diego, which would generally be a step up from most P5 universities. It’s one of the best universities in the country even if it isn’t an athletic powerhouse.

Yeah 18th in the World....
03-22-2020 12:04 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-18-2020 11:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 08:53 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Research and development is the life blood and real measuring stick.

Maybe for some things, but not athletic conference affiliation. I mean Notre Dame is #101 and Cal-State San Diego is #7. That pretty much tells us the relationship between NSF rankings and conference value, eh?

Now that we've sorted out this is UC-SD, not SDSU, yeah, academic status is a hurdle to clear, not a driver for an invite.

I saw San Diego up there in the top 20 in the world in the ARWU rankings, and was for a brief moment like, "why aren't there more stories of the PAC-12 looking at San Diego" until I realized, "wait, that's the OTHER San Diego that's in the MWC and was in line for a 1-seed this year."

And while every ranking has to have set criteria, actual academic status is a social process and its more amorphous. Combine the happiness to see a Notre Dame undergrad with a good GPA apply to your program spread across a wide number of fields and top tier law school and business schools, which don't get picked up in NSF rankings and which the ARWU is tilted against picking up, and Notre Dame certainly has good enough academic status to get into any P5 conference in the country.
03-22-2020 12:29 AM
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Post: #70
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
In 2016, UMCP and UMAB formed a strategic partnership to improve the academic profile and prestige of the College Park campus. If the financial statements of the two campuses were consolidated, which I thought was one of the objectives of the partnership, total research dollars of the combined campuses would've exceed $1.1 billion in FY2017.
03-22-2020 11:30 AM
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Post: #71
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-21-2020 11:43 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 09:22 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 08:32 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 10:06 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 08:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Beyond that.... most in the Big East, A-10, Villanova, Lehigh, Loyola Marymount, etc have fewer resources than MAC schools like Miami or Toledo. I have a friend who was very disappointed when he got a job offer from Gonzaga (#79 in US News) but was rejected from San Diego State (#147). I have friends who work at Loyola Marymount (#65) and Lehigh (#50) and I'm positive most of them would leave immediately if they were offered a position at nearby UC Riverside (#91) or Temple (#118). It would probably be a 30-50% salary increase, and they'd get to teach fewer classes.

Again the Academic Ranking of World Universities lines up with that better than USNWR rankings:

59-66 UC-Riverside
95-116 Temple
138-155 SDSU
156-171 Lehigh
NR Gonzaga
NR Loyola Marymount

It's STEM centric, to be sure, but as a results based ranking, the kinds of things that make a University more attractive to academics often translate into being able to hire academics that generate the results that the ARWU ranks.

And, of course, there's long been a split between what makes a University an excellent place for an undergraduate to pursue a degree and an excellent place for generating academic status.

If I were the AAC, I would be touting the ARWU a lot more than USNews & WR. ARWU has quite a few AAC members in it. Even C-USA has representation!!!

Just a quick glance shows more C-USA teams (9) to AAC (7 - excluding UConn). Possible I missed one or more.

MWC also has 7, MAC 5, SB 2 (one non-FB).
Big Sky has 5 1/2 (5 full, one FB affiliate)

Did you forget about the Big West?
UCSD ranked 18 in the world
UCSB ranked 48 in the world
UCI. ranked 80 in the world
UCD. ranked 90 in the world
UCR. Ranked 151-200 in the world
Hawaii. Ranked 201-250 in the world


The Big West isn’t too far away from the lower tier P5 conferences. Long Beach State and Cal Poly are both top ranked regional schools in the west.

If you're going to rank the Big West, then you should also rank the D-3 University Athletic Association:

Chicago - # 10 in the world
Washington University in St. Louis - 22
New York University - 30
Carnegie Mellon - 95
Emory - 101-150 (this is ridiculously low. They're #34 in US research funding and #21 in USNWR)
Case Western - 101-150
Rochester - 151-200
Brandeis - 301-400
03-24-2020 02:00 PM
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