For the ACC some of the lighter programs athletically (WF and Duke in particular) are elite academically, and that's despite the fact that almost no ratings criteria used (including USN&WR) normalize data per capita. So simply having giant seas of humanity helps you in the ratings. Normalizing data per capita would send several ACC schools rocketing up the chart, some of which are already highly ranked: GT, Clemson, WF, Duke, and Miami in particular. Even lil' ole Wake Forest 3D prints working organs using a modified inkjet printer and is at the forefront of research for reducing brain damage in football.

My unscientific ranking based on academics

Power 5

1. Big Ten

2A. ACC (note: I'm counting Notre Dame in this)

2B. Pac 12

4. SEC

5. Big 12

For those leagues outside the P5 and well regarded academically, this would be my "top eight" (listed alphabetically)

American, Atlantic 10, Big East, Colonial, Ivy, Mountain West, Patriot, West Coast

(03-19-2020 02:36 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-19-2020 11:00 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  1) ACC
2) Pac-12
3) B1G

I think the top 3 are all about even. They each have different strengths. E.g., the PAC and ACC have "higher peaks" than the B1G, but the B1G has fewer dregs at the bottom.

So my choice would be the B1G at the top, but that's just me.

Also, I don't think ND can count for the ACC, only full members should count.

ND is a full legal, voting member of the ACC. They are a full member of the ACC Academic Consortium. The are a full partner in the ACC Network. They just don't participate in ACC football, other than their 5 game annual commitment. They are not an affiliate or partial member of the conference despite how it the term is incorrectly although popularly applied to their situation.

Regardless, you can take ND out and the ACC still has the best average and median US News ranking every year.

That said, the Big 10 clearly has the collection of schools doing the largest amount of research & development by total $. However, the Pac-12 just edges them in average total $ in terms of federally supported research. Federal research is typically viewed as the most significant and prestigious of all research funding since it is the most competitive to obtain.

Here are the most recent (fall 2019) US News rankings (i.e. undergrad) for all Power 5 conference schools with conference averages.

ACC
Duke 10
Notre Dame 15
Wake Forest 27
Virginia 28
Georgia Tech 29
North Carolina 29
Boston College 37
Syracuse 54
Florida State 57
Miami 57
Pitt 57
Clemson 70
Virginia Tech 74
NC State 84
Louisville 192
Mean 54.7
Median 54.0

Big 10
Northwestern 9
Michigan 25
Wisconsin 46
Illinois 48
Ohio State 54
Penn State 57
Purdue 57
Rutgers 62
Maryland 64
Minnesota 70
Indiana 79
Iowa 84
Michigan State 84
Nebraska 139
Mean 62.7
Median 59.5

Pac-12
Stanford 6
UCLA 20
California 22
USC 22
Washington 62
Colorado 104
Oregon 104
Utah 104
Arizona 117
Arizona State 117
Oregon State 139
Washington State 166
Mean 81.9
Median 104.0

SEC
Vanderbilt 15
Florida 34
Georgia 50
Texas A&M 70
Auburn 104
South Carolina 104
Tennessee 104
Kentucky 132
Missouri 139
Alabama 153
Arkansas 153
LSU 153
Mississippi 162
Mississippi State 211
Mean 113.1
Median 118.0

Big 12
Texas 48
Baylor 79
TCU 97
Iowa State 121
Kansas 130
Oklahoma 132
Kansas State 162
Oklahoma State 192
Texas Tech 218
West Virginia 228
Mean 140.7
Median 131.0


Here are the total R&D ($ X 1000) for each Power 5 school per the latest available NSF information (FY 2017). This includes non-competitive research funding and grants. These totals include only the university that is a member of the conference, not entire university systems and not separate entities (such as med schools) that are not legally part of the university that is a member in the conference. The legal entity is determined by reporting/accounting by the schools themselves and award granting mechanisms by the government.

Big 10
Michigan 1,530,139
Wisconsin 1,193,413
Minnesota 921,681
Ohio State 864,327
Penn State 854,815
Northwestern 751,809
Michigan State 694,917
Rutgers 681,719
Illinois 642,084
Purdue 622,814
Maryland 548,885
Indiana 540,421
Iowa 494,280
Nebraska 302,204
Mean 760,251
Median 688,318

Pac-12
Washington 1,348,220
Stanford 1,109,708
UCLA 1,076,917
California 770,822
USC 764,322
Arizona 622,200
Arizona State 545,016
Colorado 499,389
Utah 380,295
Washington State 356,901
Oregon State 267,068
Oregon 95,974
Mean 653,069
Median 583,608

ACC
Duke 1,126,924
North Carolina 1,102,063
Pitt 939,706
Georgia Tech 804,301
Virginia Tech 522,425
NC State 500,445
Virginia 469,682
Miami 367,877
Florida State 282,901
Notre Dame 212,823
Clemson 193,268
Wake Forest 182,227
Louisville 177,588
Syracuse 145,705
Boston College 58,088
Mean 472,402
Median 367,877

SEC
Texas A&M 905,474
Florida 801,418
Vanderbilt 712,036
Georgia 455,432
Kentucky 378,374
LSU 266,177
Missouri 253,952
Mississippi State 240,972
South Carolina 208,670
Tennessee 203,800
Auburn 190,340
Arkansas 157,791
Mississippi 134,542
Alabama 63,282
Mean 355,161
Median 247,462

Big 12
Texas 652,187
Iowa State 323,584
Kansas 300,319
Oklahoma 272,239
Kansas State 196,478
Texas Tech 191,482
Oklahoma State 191,478
West Virginia 185,606
Baylor 29,400
TCU 7,255
Mean 235,003
Median 193,980


Here are the total federally supported R&D ($ X 1000) for each Power 5 school per the latest available NSF information (FY 2016). Largely, these are the most competitive research funding to be awarded and the most prestigious. Although it includes all disciplines, the NIH is the largest provider of federal research funding so totals tend to favor universities with medical schools, although these numbers also include NSF and DOD awards, among others. Please note that absolutely none of this money is shared between institutions based on conference affiliation. Research awards are completely independent of athletic conference affiliation and there is no impact on such affiliation for an institution's ability to procure future awards.

Pac-12
Washington 641,706
Stanford 552,199
UCLA 517,169
Colorado 495,701
USC 335,332
California 278,496
Utah 231,227
Arizona 211,508
Arizona State 153,087
Oregon State 116,448
Washington State 98,896
Oregon 50,023
Mean 306,816
Median 254,862

Big 10
Michigan 667,704
Wisconsin 462,157
Penn State 401,853
Northwestern 393,277
Minnesota 392,782
Michigan State 304,422
Ohio State 282,425
Illinois 274,973
Rutgers 248,528
Maryland 234,508
Iowa 190,740
Purdue 176,446
Indiana 87,513
Nebraska 75,678
Mean 299,500
Median 278,699

ACC
Pitt 532,632
Duke 508,315
North Carolina 482,958
Virginia 182,733
Georgia Tech 167,638
Miami 160,990
NC State 155,287
Virginia Tech 135,038
Wake Forest 116,632
Florida State 109,393
Clemson 72,547
Notre Dame 62,408
Louisville 59,607
Syracuse 24,518
Boston College 24,506
Mean 186,346.8
Median 135,038

SEC
Vanderbilt 409,155
Florida 252,514
Texas A&M 186,539
Kentucky 155,115
Georgia 110,652
LSU 96,067
Missouri 89,180
South Carolina 67,273
Mississippi State 64,555
Tennessee 57,192
Mississippi 52,925
Auburn 39,614
Arkansas 35,339
Alabama 13,466
Mean 116,399
Median 78,227

Big 12
Texas 296,025
Kansas 109,181
Iowa State 102,781
Oklahoma 74,149
Kansas State 62,654
West Virginia 46,616
Oklahoma State 29,423
Texas Tech 24,447
Baylor 5,148
TCU 1,593
Mean 75,202
Median 54,635

I don't know what has changed about USNWR, but the Big 12 schools are ranked a LOT lower than they were just 5 years ago. Every school but Texas is rated lower, with an averaqe of about 30 spots lower. Certain SEC schools are lower than they were as well. I know Baylor, TCU and Texas Tech have all improved during that time. Even if they haven't, there just isn't that much change in 5 years.

Big 12 USNWR 2015-2020
Texas 53-48
Baylor 71-79
TCU 76-97
Iowa St. 106-121
Kansas 106-130
Oklahoma 106-132
Kansas St. 142-162
Ok. State 145-192
Texas Tech 156-218
West Virginia 168-228
Average 112.9-140.7

(03-19-2020 07:01 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  As lovely as it is to suggest that my Alma Mater, Miami U, 1985 Public Ivy, is a superior school to Whiskey, Illinois, Minnesota and Maryland, we're not on the Shanghai list of the top 1,000 Universities of the world, and the Big Ten has (US rankings):
16/17 That School Up North
19 Wisconsin
21 Northwestern
25/26 Illinois
27 Minnesota
29 Maryland
35 Purdue
44 Penn State
45 Ohio State
46-58 Indiana (101-150 world tier)
46-58 Michigan State
46-58 Rutgers
67-94 Iowa (151-200 world tier)
67-94 Nebraska

It's conceivable that in the 1/3 of a century since that list was compiled, some things have evolved in American higher education.

Heck NAU is in the 501-600 range

(03-19-2020 10:06 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(03-19-2020 08:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Beyond that.... most in the Big East, A-10, Villanova, Lehigh, Loyola Marymount, etc have fewer resources than MAC schools like Miami or Toledo. I have a friend who was very disappointed when he got a job offer from Gonzaga (#79 in US News) but was rejected from San Diego State (#147). I have friends who work at Loyola Marymount (#65) and Lehigh (#50) and I'm positive most of them would leave immediately if they were offered a position at nearby UC Riverside (#91) or Temple (#118). It would probably be a 30-50% salary increase, and they'd get to teach fewer classes.

Again the Academic Ranking of World Universities lines up with that better than USNWR rankings:

59-66 UC-Riverside
95-116 Temple
138-155 SDSU
156-171 Lehigh
NR Gonzaga
NR Loyola Marymount

It's STEM centric, to be sure, but as a results based ranking, the kinds of things that make a University more attractive to academics often translate into being able to hire academics that generate the results that the ARWU ranks.

And, of course, there's long been a split between what makes a University an excellent place for an undergraduate to pursue a degree and an excellent place for generating academic status.

If I were the AAC, I would be touting the ARWU a lot more than USNews & WR. ARWU has quite a few AAC members in it. Even C-USA has representation!!!

Comparing the conferences using ARWU and WUR rankings.
ACC has 5/15 in top 100 of WUR, 10/15 ranked (rankings go down to 400)
Big 10 has 9/14 in top 100, all 14 ranked
Pac 12 has 6/12 in top 100, 11 of 12 ranked

ARWU
ACC has 3/15 in top 100 of ARWU, all 15 ranked (rankings go down to 1000 which is 206 in US)
Big 10 has 9/14 in top 100 and all 14 ranked
Pac 12 has 6/12 in top 100 and all 12 ranked

Both these use ranges (201-250 or 201-300, etc.) so it is hard to do averages, but if you assume each school was the midpoint of their range, it would be: Big 10 96; Pac 12 121, ACC 297.
2019 2020
ARWU WU
Boston College 401-500 135
Clemson 401-500 U
Duke 28 17
Florida State 201-300 U
Georgia Tech 101-150 28
Miami 201-300 185
North Carolina 33 47
North Carolina State 201-300 U
Pittsburg 89 78
Syracuse 601-700 U
Virginia 151-200 112
Virginia Tech 201-300 276-300
Wake Forest 401-500 180
Louisville 601-700 U
Notre Dame 301-400 90

Maryland 41 108
Illinois 38 29
Indiana 101-150 132
Iowa 201-300 161
Michigan 20 18
Michigan State 101-150 83
Minnesota 41 46
Nebraska 201-300 251-275
Northwestern 29 22
Ohio State 100 59
Penn State 98 49
Purdue 72 62
Wisconsin 27 30
Rutgers 101-150 103

Arizona 101-150 103
Arizona State 101-150 146
California 4 8
Colorado 38 97
Oregon 301-400 U
Oregon State 201-300 301-350
Stanford 2 4
UCLA 11 12
USC 55 70
Utah 101-150 143
Washington 14 25
Washington State 301-400 301-350

Comparing the Big 12, SEC and AAC

WUR
Big 12 1 of 10 top 100, 5 of 10 ranked
SEC 1 of 14 top 100, 6 of 14 ranked
AAC 0 top 100, 6/12 ranked

ARWU
Big 12 1 of 10 ranked top 100, 9/10 ranked (TCU not)
SEC 2 of 14 ranked top 100, all 14 ranked
ACC no top 100, 9 of 12 ranked (Navy, Tulsa, Memphis)

Baylor 501-600 U
Iowa State 201-300 183
Kansas 201-300 276-300
Kansas State 301-400 301-350
Oklahoma 401-500 351-400
Oklahoma State 501-600 U
TCU U U
Texas 45 27
Texas Tech 501-600 U
West Virginia 401-500 U

Alabama 501-600 U
Arkansas 501-600 U
Auburn 501-600 U
Florida 95 128
Georgia 201-300 276-300
Kentucky 301-400 U
Louisiana State 301-400 U
Mississippi 801-900 U
Mississippi State 501-600 U
Missouri 151-200 301-350
South Carolina 301-400 251-275
Tennessee 201-300 U
Texas A&M 151-200 159
Vanderbilt 55 88

Tulane 401-500 226-250
Tulsa U U
East Carolina 701-800 U
Central Florida 201-300 U
Cincinnati 301-400 226-250
Connecticut 201-300 301-350
Houston 201-300 301-350
Memphis U U
SMU 501-600 U
South Florida 201-300 276-300
Temple 301-400 351-400
Navy U U

(03-19-2020 01:08 PM)michael.stevens.3110 Wrote:  It’s pretty obvious that Texas Tech and West Virginia are dragging the rest of the Big 12 down ...They are the very Bottom ranked P5 teams ...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

With a child who is a senior, I've looked at a lot of the southern schools. Getting into Texas Tech isn't any easier than Alabama. And Alabama is not the bottom of the SEC.
Houston is ranked 185 and it is far, far more difficult to get into than all but the top 4 SEC schools, yet all but Mississippi St. are rated above them in USNWR, usually far above them. So I'd take USNWR with a grain of salt.

ARWU and WUR have the issue that they focus on research and graduate schools. Excellent schools like TCU and Navy are unranked. Miami University, one of the public ivies is unranked. William and Mary, another of the public ivies, is 801-900.

(03-18-2020 04:49 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-18-2020 03:48 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I think Frank's post covers the bases pretty well.

Yep.

I'd add this: the American conference is probably slightly ahead of the Big 12, on average.


US News Ranking:
17 - Navy (American)
39 - Tulane (American)
48 - Texas
56 - SMU (American)
79 - Baylor
86 - Tulsa (American)
97 - TCU
118 - Temple (American)
121 - Iowa State
130 - Kansas
132 - Oklahoma
135 - Cincinnati (American)
159 - USF (American)
162 - Kansas State
176 - UCF (American)
192 - Oklahoma State
194 - Houston (American)
210 - ECU (American)
218 - Texas Tech
228 - WVU
272 - Memphis (American)
293 - Wichita (American)


Research Funding (millions of $ 2017)
652,187 - University of Texas at Austin, The - ranked 35
557,889 - University of South Florida, Tampa (American) - ranked 42
455,250 - University of Cincinnati (American) - ranked 54
323,584 - Iowa State University - ranked 73
300,319 - University of Kansas - ranked 78
272,239 - University of Oklahoma, The - ranked 84
268,385 - Temple University (American) - ranked 85
233,702 - University of Central Florida (American) - ranked 98
196,478 - Kansas State University - ranked 109
191,482 - Texas Tech University - ranked 113
191,478 - Oklahoma State University - ranked 114
185,606 - West Virginia University - ranked 117
180,993 - Tulane University (American) - ranked 121
169,431 - University of Houston (American) - ranked 125
78,514 - Wichita State University (American) - ranked 165
49,695 - University of Memphis, The (American) - ranked 195
29,879 - Southern Methodist University (American) - ranked 233
29,400 - Baylor University - ranked 237
26,117 - East Carolina University (American) - ranked 243
20,879 - University of Tulsa (American) - ranked 263
13,541 - United States Naval Academy (American) - ranked 307
7,255 - Texas Christian University - ranked 363

UCF is not ahead of USF? WTF.

JK. Glad to hear the USF success.

Man .... a lot of rankings on this page.

To me, the consensus is that the B1G, PAC, and ACC are three strongest conferences academically, in no particular order, while the SEC and Big 12 are in a category below, with the SEC generally viewed as having at least a few schools that would fit academically in the top three conferences, whereas with the Big 12 it's basically just Texas.

Just shows that network viewership is just as big as academics.

(03-19-2020 08:32 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(03-19-2020 10:06 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(03-19-2020 08:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Beyond that.... most in the Big East, A-10, Villanova, Lehigh, Loyola Marymount, etc have fewer resources than MAC schools like Miami or Toledo. I have a friend who was very disappointed when he got a job offer from Gonzaga (#79 in US News) but was rejected from San Diego State (#147). I have friends who work at Loyola Marymount (#65) and Lehigh (#50) and I'm positive most of them would leave immediately if they were offered a position at nearby UC Riverside (#91) or Temple (#118). It would probably be a 30-50% salary increase, and they'd get to teach fewer classes.

Again the Academic Ranking of World Universities lines up with that better than USNWR rankings:

59-66 UC-Riverside
95-116 Temple
138-155 SDSU
156-171 Lehigh
NR Gonzaga
NR Loyola Marymount

It's STEM centric, to be sure, but as a results based ranking, the kinds of things that make a University more attractive to academics often translate into being able to hire academics that generate the results that the ARWU ranks.

And, of course, there's long been a split between what makes a University an excellent place for an undergraduate to pursue a degree and an excellent place for generating academic status.

If I were the AAC, I would be touting the ARWU a lot more than USNews & WR. ARWU has quite a few AAC members in it. Even C-USA has representation!!!

Just a quick glance shows more C-USA teams (9) to AAC (7 - excluding UConn). Possible I missed one or more.

MWC also has 7, MAC 5, SB 2 (one non-FB).
Big Sky has 5 1/2 (5 full, one FB affiliate)

(03-19-2020 09:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Man .... a lot of rankings on this page.

To me, the consensus is that the B1G, PAC, and ACC are three strongest conferences academically, in no particular order, while the SEC and Big 12 are in a category below, with the SEC generally viewed as having at least a few schools that would fit academically in the top three conferences, whereas with the Big 12 it's basically just Texas.

In line with your comment, in the WUR ratings, 13 of 14 Big 10 schools are rated higher than everyone in the Big 12 but Texas and everyone in the SEC but Florida, Vanderbilt and A&M. The same is true for 9 of 12 Pac 12 schools and 9 of 15 ACC schools.

(03-19-2020 04:11 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(03-19-2020 02:36 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-19-2020 11:00 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  1) ACC
2) Pac-12
3) B1G

I think the top 3 are all about even. They each have different strengths. E.g., the PAC and ACC have "higher peaks" than the B1G, but the B1G has fewer dregs at the bottom.

So my choice would be the B1G at the top, but that's just me.

Also, I don't think ND can count for the ACC, only full members should count.

ND is a full legal, voting member of the ACC. They are a full member of the ACC Academic Consortium. The are a full partner in the ACC Network. They just don't participate in ACC football, other than their 5 game annual commitment. They are not an affiliate or partial member of the conference despite how it the term is incorrectly although popularly applied to their situation.

Regardless, you can take ND out and the ACC still has the best average and median US News ranking every year.

That said, the Big 10 clearly has the collection of schools doing the largest amount of research & development by total $. However, the Pac-12 just edges them in average total $ in terms of federally supported research. Federal research is typically viewed as the most significant and prestigious of all research funding since it is the most competitive to obtain.

Here are the most recent (fall 2019) US News rankings (i.e. undergrad) for all Power 5 conference schools with conference averages.

ACC
Duke 10
Notre Dame 15
Wake Forest 27
Virginia 28
Georgia Tech 29
North Carolina 29
Boston College 37
Syracuse 54
Florida State 57
Miami 57
Pitt 57
Clemson 70
Virginia Tech 74
NC State 84
Louisville 192
Mean 54.7
Median 54.0

Big 10
Northwestern 9
Michigan 25
Wisconsin 46
Illinois 48
Ohio State 54
Penn State 57
Purdue 57
Rutgers 62
Maryland 64
Minnesota 70
Indiana 79
Iowa 84
Michigan State 84
Nebraska 139
Mean 62.7
Median 59.5

Pac-12
Stanford 6
UCLA 20
California 22
USC 22
Washington 62
Colorado 104
Oregon 104
Utah 104
Arizona 117
Arizona State 117
Oregon State 139
Washington State 166
Mean 81.9
Median 104.0

SEC
Vanderbilt 15
Florida 34
Georgia 50
Texas A&M 70
Auburn 104
South Carolina 104
Tennessee 104
Kentucky 132
Missouri 139
Alabama 153
Arkansas 153
LSU 153
Mississippi 162
Mississippi State 211
Mean 113.1
Median 118.0

Big 12
Texas 48
Baylor 79
TCU 97
Iowa State 121
Kansas 130
Oklahoma 132
Kansas State 162
Oklahoma State 192
Texas Tech 218
West Virginia 228
Mean 140.7
Median 131.0


Here are the total R&D ($ X 1000) for each Power 5 school per the latest available NSF information (FY 2017). This includes non-competitive research funding and grants. These totals include only the university that is a member of the conference, not entire university systems and not separate entities (such as med schools) that are not legally part of the university that is a member in the conference. The legal entity is determined by reporting/accounting by the schools themselves and award granting mechanisms by the government.

Big 10
Michigan 1,530,139
Wisconsin 1,193,413
Minnesota 921,681
Ohio State 864,327
Penn State 854,815
Northwestern 751,809
Michigan State 694,917
Rutgers 681,719
Illinois 642,084
Purdue 622,814
Maryland 548,885
Indiana 540,421
Iowa 494,280
Nebraska 302,204
Mean 760,251
Median 688,318

Pac-12
Washington 1,348,220
Stanford 1,109,708
UCLA 1,076,917
California 770,822
USC 764,322
Arizona 622,200
Arizona State 545,016
Colorado 499,389
Utah 380,295
Washington State 356,901
Oregon State 267,068
Oregon 95,974
Mean 653,069
Median 583,608

ACC
Duke 1,126,924
North Carolina 1,102,063
Pitt 939,706
Georgia Tech 804,301
Virginia Tech 522,425
NC State 500,445
Virginia 469,682
Miami 367,877
Florida State 282,901
Notre Dame 212,823
Clemson 193,268
Wake Forest 182,227
Louisville 177,588
Syracuse 145,705
Boston College 58,088
Mean 472,402
Median 367,877

SEC
Texas A&M 905,474
Florida 801,418
Vanderbilt 712,036
Georgia 455,432
Kentucky 378,374
LSU 266,177
Missouri 253,952
Mississippi State 240,972
South Carolina 208,670
Tennessee 203,800
Auburn 190,340
Arkansas 157,791
Mississippi 134,542
Alabama 63,282
Mean 355,161
Median 247,462

Big 12
Texas 652,187
Iowa State 323,584
Kansas 300,319
Oklahoma 272,239
Kansas State 196,478
Texas Tech 191,482
Oklahoma State 191,478
West Virginia 185,606
Baylor 29,400
TCU 7,255
Mean 235,003
Median 193,980


Here are the total federally supported R&D ($ X 1000) for each Power 5 school per the latest available NSF information (FY 2016). Largely, these are the most competitive research funding to be awarded and the most prestigious. Although it includes all disciplines, the NIH is the largest provider of federal research funding so totals tend to favor universities with medical schools, although these numbers also include NSF and DOD awards, among others. Please note that absolutely none of this money is shared between institutions based on conference affiliation. Research awards are completely independent of athletic conference affiliation and there is no impact on such affiliation for an institution's ability to procure future awards.

Pac-12
Washington 641,706
Stanford 552,199
UCLA 517,169
Colorado 495,701
USC 335,332
California 278,496
Utah 231,227
Arizona 211,508
Arizona State 153,087
Oregon State 116,448
Washington State 98,896
Oregon 50,023
Mean 306,816
Median 254,862

Big 10
Michigan 667,704
Wisconsin 462,157
Penn State 401,853
Northwestern 393,277
Minnesota 392,782
Michigan State 304,422
Ohio State 282,425
Illinois 274,973
Rutgers 248,528
Maryland 234,508
Iowa 190,740
Purdue 176,446
Indiana 87,513
Nebraska 75,678
Mean 299,500
Median 278,699

ACC
Pitt 532,632
Duke 508,315
North Carolina 482,958
Virginia 182,733
Georgia Tech 167,638
Miami 160,990
NC State 155,287
Virginia Tech 135,038
Wake Forest 116,632
Florida State 109,393
Clemson 72,547
Notre Dame 62,408
Louisville 59,607
Syracuse 24,518
Boston College 24,506
Mean 186,346.8
Median 135,038

SEC
Vanderbilt 409,155
Florida 252,514
Texas A&M 186,539
Kentucky 155,115
Georgia 110,652
LSU 96,067
Missouri 89,180
South Carolina 67,273
Mississippi State 64,555
Tennessee 57,192
Mississippi 52,925
Auburn 39,614
Arkansas 35,339
Alabama 13,466
Mean 116,399
Median 78,227

Big 12
Texas 296,025
Kansas 109,181
Iowa State 102,781
Oklahoma 74,149
Kansas State 62,654
West Virginia 46,616
Oklahoma State 29,423
Texas Tech 24,447
Baylor 5,148
TCU 1,593
Mean 75,202
Median 54,635

Very nice compilation of stats Paco. Thank you.

To be honest, this is kind of a silly debate. There are 20 schools or so that open doors everywhere, not just with alums. If you go to MIT, the Ivies, Stanford, Chicago, etc. You immediately have a step up when competing for grad school admission, jobs, etc. The rest, not so much. Of course, if you go to a tiny school no one ever heard of or if you went to a university that has the reputation of being a glorified high school, you will scrutinized more closely. But most major, known universities are all considered to be pretty good.

For example, I am now in Wisconsin. Does a Wisconsin grad have an advantage over an Iowa State grad in Wisconsin? Sure. Home field advantage. But, the Iowa State grad probably has the advantage in Iowa, and in most of the country, the two schools are a wash. Both good schools, even if one is ranked higher than the other in rankings.

I do the recruiting at our firm. Will I look twice at a Harvard, Yale or Chicago grad? You bet. On the flip side, will I care if someone went to Georgia Tech vs. Virginia Tech? Nope. Other issues beyond school will dictate if I consider that candidate. Both are known schools and I am not going to go running off to the US News ranking to see which is a better school.

I think the bigger issue is the negative reputation of certain schools, for example, urban public universities. I think it is especially tough to convince an employer in another part that a school with a reputation for being academically less challenging, is actually a pretty good school. I think schools like Houston and Louisville have an uphill climb convincing people in others parts of the country that they are pretty decent schools. Hence, people perceive some conferences as academically inferior when they are not.

(03-20-2020 11:41 AM)MU88 Wrote:  For example, I am now in Wisconsin. Does a Wisconsin grad have an advantage over an Iowa State grad in Wisconsin? Sure. Home field advantage. But, the Iowa State grad probably has the advantage in Iowa, and in most of the country, the two schools are a wash. Both good schools, even if one is ranked higher than the other in rankings.

That's a good point. A lot of these big state schools may not be high in the rankings, but their graduates dominate their state so if you graduate from that school you are going to be welcomed with a smile in many, many places in that state. For example, LSU is around a #150 school, but in Louisiana a degree from there is golden, as their graduates dominate so many institutions, public and private.

(03-20-2020 01:39 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-20-2020 11:41 AM)MU88 Wrote:  For example, I am now in Wisconsin. Does a Wisconsin grad have an advantage over an Iowa State grad in Wisconsin? Sure. Home field advantage. But, the Iowa State grad probably has the advantage in Iowa, and in most of the country, the two schools are a wash. Both good schools, even if one is ranked higher than the other in rankings.

That's a good point. A lot of these big state schools may not be high in the rankings, but their graduates dominate their state so if you graduate from that school you are going to be welcomed with a smile in many, many places in that state. For example, LSU is around a #150 school, but in Louisiana a degree from there is golden, as their graduates dominate so many institutions, public and private.

That's true, but I will disagree that there is no difference. When hiring, I certainly would note a Wisconsin, Illinois, Cal or Virginia more than an Oregon St. or Mississippi St. And some things depend on field. If you are looking at engineers, there is definitely a plus for a degree from that trade school on North Avenue. Georgia Tech is noted for being a great engineering school. Using USNWR, Cal is #3, Michigan #T4, Purdue #7, Georgia Tech #8, UCSD #9, Illinois, Texas and USC at #10, Texas A&M at #13 ahead of EVERY Ivy League school (MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech, Carnegie Mellon are top 5 but no Ivies).

If I'm wanting to hire an engineer in the state of Alabama, and if a Georgia Tech graduate isn't available, I will probably hire an Auburn graduate. As for law, I would hire either a Samford or an Alabama graduate (Faulkner is another good law school, and very underrated.). As for medical, either a Texas, UAB, or an Emory graduate.

(03-20-2020 03:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  And some things depend on field. If you are looking at engineers, there is definitely a plus for a degree from that trade school on North Avenue.

This is something I have to explain to my students in China. I make the joke about the Chinese student who got offers to study theater arts at NYU and MIT and went to MIT, "because it's MIT" ... and then have to explain the joke, because they are like, "well, yes, of course, it's MIT. It's one of the top ten Universities in the World!"