The strongest is a coin flip between the B1G and PAC-12 IMO. Weakest probably the Big XII? Any more informed guesses?

Coin flip? Probably? Any more informed guesses?


Sorry---couldn't resist.

(03-18-2020 11:26 AM)texoma Wrote:  Coin flip? Probably? Any more informed guesses?


Sorry---couldn't resist.

That's why I was looking for more informed guesses. :)

Depends upon what you mean by academics.

For graduate research purposes, it's probably Big Ten from top-to-bottom and then the Pac-12. Even the weakest academic school in the Big Ten (Nebraska) is still a huge flagship research institution while everyone else in the league is a legit research powerhouse.

For undergrad prestige, it's actually probably the ACC because of how many schools that they have at the top of the rankings (e.g. Duke, UVA, UNC, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, etc.) and then the Big Ten.

The Pac-12 has the tip of the spear in the P5 since it has some of the very top in its ranks for both graduate and undergrad prestige (Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA and USC), but it doesn't have quite the depth top-to-bottom compared to the Big Ten (more for grad school) and ACC (more for undergrad).

The SEC is better academically than what many people think, although it's probably not as great academically as SEC partisans want/claim it to be. Vandy is an elite school while Florida, Georgia and Texas A&M have risen very rapidly in the rankings. The main issue is the depth in the rest of the league for academics once you go further down.

The Big 12 is largely reliant on Texas (the school) on the academic front (similar to how it's reliant on Texas in terms of overall revenue and recruiting), so they're the weakest in terms of academics out of the P5. It's yet another reason why the Big 12 has long been seen as more vulnerable even when the TV revenue and fan support might be stronger compared to, say, the Pac-12 and ACC.

This thread lists the US News and World Report College rankings for 2020: https://csnbbs.com/thread-894668.html

The Pac 12 obviously has Stanford and the UC schools (Cal and UCLA) and USC are high but WSU and Oregon State are low. The ACC only has a few high teams as well and only one poor school (Louisville). I didn't calculate average but I'd guess the ACC is higher than the Pac 12. I'd think they'd be pretty close to the Big Ten and if they're not ahead it's only because of Louisville. The SEC's probably higher than the Big 12 since they have more higher schools.

I was thinking undergrad for the purposes of my OP. Thanks Frank for confirming my intuition.

Top to bottom undergraduate, I would put the Big 10 ahead of the ACC. Big 10 has nobody at the bottom. ACC has a few.

Although even the weaker ACC schools (other than Louisville) can be difficult to get into. The bottom of the ACC, FSU, Clemson, NCSU and Virginia Tech, are all tougher to get into now than all but Florida, Georgia, Vanderbilt and Texas A&M from the SEC.

(03-18-2020 12:35 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  I was thinking undergrad for the purposes of my OP. Thanks Frank for confirming my intuition.

The US News rankings are for undergrad. There's a separate set of rankings for grad schools.

I think Frank's post covers the bases pretty well.

(03-18-2020 03:48 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I think Frank's post covers the bases pretty well.

Yep.

I'd add this: the American conference is probably slightly ahead of the Big 12, on average.


US News Ranking:
17 - Navy (American)
39 - Tulane (American)
48 - Texas
56 - SMU (American)
79 - Baylor
86 - Tulsa (American)
97 - TCU
118 - Temple (American)
121 - Iowa State
130 - Kansas
132 - Oklahoma
135 - Cincinnati (American)
159 - USF (American)
162 - Kansas State
176 - UCF (American)
192 - Oklahoma State
194 - Houston (American)
210 - ECU (American)
218 - Texas Tech
228 - WVU
272 - Memphis (American)
293 - Wichita (American)


Research Funding (millions of $ 2017)
652,187 - University of Texas at Austin, The - ranked 35
557,889 - University of South Florida, Tampa (American) - ranked 42
455,250 - University of Cincinnati (American) - ranked 54
323,584 - Iowa State University - ranked 73
300,319 - University of Kansas - ranked 78
272,239 - University of Oklahoma, The - ranked 84
268,385 - Temple University (American) - ranked 85
233,702 - University of Central Florida (American) - ranked 98
196,478 - Kansas State University - ranked 109
191,482 - Texas Tech University - ranked 113
191,478 - Oklahoma State University - ranked 114
185,606 - West Virginia University - ranked 117
180,993 - Tulane University (American) - ranked 121
169,431 - University of Houston (American) - ranked 125
78,514 - Wichita State University (American) - ranked 165
49,695 - University of Memphis, The (American) - ranked 195
29,879 - Southern Methodist University (American) - ranked 233
29,400 - Baylor University - ranked 237
26,117 - East Carolina University (American) - ranked 243
20,879 - University of Tulsa (American) - ranked 263
13,541 - United States Naval Academy (American) - ranked 307
7,255 - Texas Christian University - ranked 363

(03-18-2020 11:45 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Depends upon what you mean by academics.

For graduate research purposes, it's probably Big Ten from top-to-bottom and then the Pac-12. Even the weakest academic school in the Big Ten (Nebraska) is still a huge flagship research institution while everyone else in the league is a legit research powerhouse.

For undergrad prestige, it's actually probably the ACC because of how many schools that they have at the top of the rankings (e.g. Duke, UVA, UNC, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, etc.) and then the Big Ten.

The Pac-12 has the tip of the spear in the P5 since it has some of the very top in its ranks for both graduate and undergrad prestige (Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA and USC), but it doesn't have quite the depth top-to-bottom compared to the Big Ten (more for grad school) and ACC (more for undergrad).

The SEC is better academically than what many people think, although it's probably not as great academically as SEC partisans want/claim it to be. Vandy is an elite school while Florida, Georgia and Texas A&M have risen very rapidly in the rankings. The main issue is the depth in the rest of the league for academics once you go further down.

The Big 12 is largely reliant on Texas (the school) on the academic front (similar to how it's reliant on Texas in terms of overall revenue and recruiting), so they're the weakest in terms of academics out of the P5. It's yet another reason why the Big 12 has long been seen as more vulnerable even when the TV revenue and fan support might be stronger compared to, say, the Pac-12 and ACC.

Don't forget Notre Dame for ACC purposes.

(03-18-2020 02:56 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(03-18-2020 12:35 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  I was thinking undergrad for the purposes of my OP. Thanks Frank for confirming my intuition.

The US News rankings are for undergrad. There's a separate set of rankings for grad schools.

But they are a pretty weak rating system. They heavily favor private schools with some of their criteria.

(03-18-2020 04:49 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-18-2020 03:48 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I think Frank's post covers the bases pretty well.

Yep.

I'd add this: the American conference is probably slightly ahead of the Big 12, on average.


US News Ranking:
17 - Navy (American)
39 - Tulane (American)
48 - Texas
56 - SMU (American)
79 - Baylor
86 - Tulsa (American)
97 - TCU
118 - Temple (American)
121 - Iowa State
130 - Kansas
132 - Oklahoma
135 - Cincinnati (American)
159 - USF (American)
162 - Kansas State
176 - UCF (American)
192 - Oklahoma State
194 - Houston (American)
210 - ECU (American)
218 - Texas Tech
228 - WVU
272 - Memphis (American)
293 - Wichita (American)


Research Funding (millions of $ 2017)
652,187 - University of Texas at Austin, The - ranked 35
557,889 - University of South Florida, Tampa (American) - ranked 42
455,250 - University of Cincinnati (American) - ranked 54
323,584 - Iowa State University - ranked 73
300,319 - University of Kansas - ranked 78
272,239 - University of Oklahoma, The - ranked 84
268,385 - Temple University (American) - ranked 85
233,702 - University of Central Florida (American) - ranked 98
196,478 - Kansas State University - ranked 109
191,482 - Texas Tech University - ranked 113
191,478 - Oklahoma State University - ranked 114
185,606 - West Virginia University - ranked 117
180,993 - Tulane University (American) - ranked 121
169,431 - University of Houston (American) - ranked 125
78,514 - Wichita State University (American) - ranked 165
49,695 - University of Memphis, The (American) - ranked 195
29,879 - Southern Methodist University (American) - ranked 233
29,400 - Baylor University - ranked 237
26,117 - East Carolina University (American) - ranked 243
20,879 - University of Tulsa (American) - ranked 263
13,541 - United States Naval Academy (American) - ranked 307
7,255 - Texas Christian University - ranked 363

TCU is a very good school. Just not researched based. Nobody in Texas or Oklahoma would rate Baylor or Tulsa ahead of TCU for undergraduate. SMU is debateable.

I don't know that I would agree with Frank about the SEC undergrad being ahead of the Big 12, but its hard to compare. The Big 12 has two good privates and 8 publics. The SEC has one very good private and 13 publics.

I wouldn't agree with you about AAC being ahead of the Big 12, but it probably gets underrated because its not P5 and its not much different. I know USF, UCF and Houston are all tougher to get into than all but about 4 SEC schools. Now do tougher admission standards make them better academically?

(03-18-2020 04:49 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  159 - USF (American)

USF is currently ranked #104.

(03-18-2020 05:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  But they are a pretty weak rating system. They heavily favor private schools with some of their criteria.

Thing is, though, that's not controversial in academia. E.g., the current US News top 5 are Princeton, Harvard, Columbia, MIT, and Yale. All private, and all would get no argument from anyone as being in the academic top 10.

Really, the only weird case is Texas at #48. Being in academia, I can assure you that from a faculty POV, an appointment at Texas is as desirable a posting as any public school in the country. Even places like Rice and Notre Dame would be regarded as lateral moves from there, the only places that would be regarded as promotions would be to the Ivies and a few peers like Cal-Tech and Stanford.

I'll weigh in.

First, I agree with Frank on the P5 academic rankings.

I'm not a fan of the B12 — its athletics, academics or campus locations. My father took our family to Norman, Oklahoma, each summer from the late 1960s to the early 1970s so that he could take professional development courses on the OU campus. He has about six or seven certificates and somewhat roots for the Sooners in football. That's cool. But the Big 12's modest college towns, the lack of diversity in those towns (maybe I'm being a bit harsh), the modest academics compared to the other four P5, etc. .... I've seen Fort Worth and the TCU campus multiple times (my late aunt and uncle lived in Dallas for years) ... not good. Waco ... horrendous. I do strongly like Austin the city, and the university is big league in every respect.

I'm sure some fans of Big 12 schools will not appreciate this post and I don't mean to be too critical. Obviously, every Big 12 school brings many positives to the table. I think I would enjoy Lawrence, Kansas, if I ever visited (hear good things).

I've for so long been focused on the SEC, ACC and Big Ten that I suppose am unfairly biased.

(03-18-2020 07:52 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-18-2020 05:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  But they are a pretty weak rating system. They heavily favor private schools with some of their criteria.

Thing is, though, that's not controversial in academia. E.g., the current US News top 5 are Princeton, Harvard, Columbia, MIT, and Yale. All private, and all would get no argument from anyone as being in the academic top 10.

Really, the only weird case is Texas at #48. Being in academia, I can assure you that from a faculty POV, an appointment at Texas is as desirable a posting as any public school in the country. Even places like Rice and Notre Dame would be regarded as lateral moves from there, the only places that would be regarded as promotions would be to the Ivies and a few peers like Cal-Tech and Stanford.

Quo, I suspect you are correct when you note "from a faculty POV, an appointment at Texas is as desirable a posting as any public school in the country." However, I would think some of that desirability is due to the city of Austin (i.e., the appeal is not limited to working at UT). Liberal academics love that city. I do, too, and I'm neither an academician nor a full-fledged liberal.

Still, your point is a good one overall.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

Use the NSF to compare research universities.

Quo: would the Public Ivies of the B1G be considered a lateral move by your colleagues?

(03-18-2020 07:52 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-18-2020 05:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  But they are a pretty weak rating system. They heavily favor private schools with some of their criteria.

Thing is, though, that's not controversial in academia. E.g., the current US News top 5 are Princeton, Harvard, Columbia, MIT, and Yale. All private, and all would get no argument from anyone as being in the academic top 10.

Really, the only weird case is Texas at #48. Being in academia, I can assure you that from a faculty POV, an appointment at Texas is as desirable a posting as any public school in the country. Even places like Rice and Notre Dame would be regarded as lateral moves from there, the only places that would be regarded as promotions would be to the Ivies and a few peers like Cal-Tech and Stanford.

I don't think there's any disagreement about those, but I think when you get beyond the top 5 or 10 privates, you do get a lot who aren't considered as good as some of the top publics, but are rated above them.