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Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
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Post: #21
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-18-2020 07:52 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I'll weigh in.

First, I agree with Frank on the P5 academic rankings.

I'm not a fan of the B12 — its athletics, academics or campus locations. My father took our family to Norman, Oklahoma, each summer from the late 1960s to the early 1970s so that he could take professional development courses on the OU campus. He has about six or seven certificates and somewhat roots for the Sooners in football. That's cool. But the Big 12's modest college towns, the lack of diversity in those towns (maybe I'm being a bit harsh), the modest academics compared to the other four P5, etc. .... I've seen Fort Worth and the TCU campus multiple times (my late aunt and uncle lived in Dallas for years) ... not good. Waco ... horrendous. I do strongly like Austin the city, and the university is big league in every respect.

I'm sure some fans of Big 12 schools will not appreciate this post and I don't mean to be too critical. Obviously, every Big 12 school brings many positives to the table. I think I would enjoy Lawrence, Kansas, if I ever visited (hear good things).

I've for so long been focused on the SEC, ACC and Big Ten that I suppose am unfairly biased.

Sounds like you are complaining about the towns, not the schools. Sure, Waco, Lubbock and Norman aren't the first places most people would choose to live.

I don't know when you were in Ft. Worth, but it has really gotten nicer over the last 20 years.

The Big 12 as a whole is not academically on a par with the Pac 12 since it lost its 4 AAU schools and has never really been on a par with the Big 10 or ACC. But the SEC is similar to the Big 12 now.
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2020 08:32 PM by bullet.)
03-18-2020 08:29 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-18-2020 08:16 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Quo: would the Public Ivies of the B1G be considered a lateral move by your colleagues?

Yes, there are no public schools in the B1G, including Michigan, that are generally regarded as a step up from a similar position at Texas.

The only B1G school that would be regarded as a step up from Texas by most faculty would be Northwestern.
03-18-2020 08:29 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
13 of the 14 B10 Universities are ranked 2-49 in the NSF for Research and Development. Nebraska is the outlier at 77
10 of the 12 P12 Universities are ranked 5-66 in the NSF for R & D with the outliers being OSU at 87 and Oregon at 159
8 of the 15 ACC Universities are ranked 8-64 in the NSF for R & D, FSU is 82, ND 101 and Clemson 111 bit ND and Clemson are very small in size, WF at 120 is tiny. The real outliers are Louisville at 122, Syracuse at 132 and BC at 187. BC is in fact a college with very little graduate research and Syracuse cut back graduates programs two decades ago.
4 of the SEC schools are ranked 19-53, the rest above 62. Arkansas, Ole Miss, and Alabama are the outliers at 128, 139, and 179.
UT is 35 and ISU and Kansas are in the 70's for the B12. They have two huge outliers - Baylor at 237 and TCU at 353.

Research and development is the life blood and real measuring stick. Using the B10 metrics as it relates to graduate degree granting institutions of intensive research, capped at Nebraskas ranking, Duke, UNC, Pitt, GT, VT, NCSU, UVa, and Miami of the ACC would come in ahead of Nebraska from the ACC. Washington, Stanford, UCLA, Cal, USC, Arisona, ASU, Colorado, Utah, and Washington State would meet that from the P12. TAMU, Florida, VAndy, UGA, and Kentucky would meet that mertric as well. From the B12, only Texas and Iowa State meet that metric.

The real outliers in the P-5 are non graduate research intensive universities. They are - Wake Forest, BC. Louisville, Syracuse, Oregon, Oregon State, Arkansas, Ole Miss, Alabama, Baylor, and TCU

Wake Forest, BC, and TCU are very small schools - essentially they remain colleges.

That just leaves Louisville, Syracuse, Oregon, Oregon State, Arkansas, Ole Miss, Alabama, and Baylor as intuitions that are not small colleges, but are also not heavy into research and development.
03-18-2020 08:53 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-18-2020 08:29 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 07:52 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I'll weigh in.

First, I agree with Frank on the P5 academic rankings.

I'm not a fan of the B12 — its athletics, academics or campus locations. My father took our family to Norman, Oklahoma, each summer from the late 1960s to the early 1970s so that he could take professional development courses on the OU campus. He has about six or seven certificates and somewhat roots for the Sooners in football. That's cool. But the Big 12's modest college towns, the lack of diversity in those towns (maybe I'm being a bit harsh), the modest academics compared to the other four P5, etc. .... I've seen Fort Worth and the TCU campus multiple times (my late aunt and uncle lived in Dallas for years) ... not good. Waco ... horrendous. I do strongly like Austin the city, and the university is big league in every respect.

I'm sure some fans of Big 12 schools will not appreciate this post and I don't mean to be too critical. Obviously, every Big 12 school brings many positives to the table. I think I would enjoy Lawrence, Kansas, if I ever visited (hear good things).

I've for so long been focused on the SEC, ACC and Big Ten that I suppose am unfairly biased.

Sounds like you are complaining about the towns, not the schools. Sure, Waco, Lubbock and Norman aren't the first places most people would choose to live.

I don't know when you were in Ft. Worth, but it has really gotten nicer over the last 20 years.

The Big 12 as a whole is not academically on a par with the Pac 12 since it lost its 4 AAU schools and has never really been on a par with the Big 10 or ACC. But the SEC is similar to the Big 12 now.


A fair point about Forth Worth. I was impressed with the Amon Carter Museum of American Art. The zoo (visited in the mid-1970s as a kid) seemed very solid. Was last there about five years ago and had a good meal and a beer at a brewpub in a cool district outside downtown. The downtown was stable and offered some solid vibrancy. Not a bad city at all but (for my tastes) has some flaws.

Not sure I would fully agree that the SEC and Big 12 are similar academically (if that is what you are suggesting). I give the SEC the nod. But I'm biased due to Vanderbilt.
03-18-2020 09:22 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-18-2020 08:53 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Research and development is the life blood and real measuring stick.

Maybe for some things, but not athletic conference affiliation. I mean Notre Dame is #101 and Cal-State San Diego is #7. That pretty much tells us the relationship between NSF rankings and conference value, eh?
03-18-2020 11:10 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-18-2020 11:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 08:53 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Research and development is the life blood and real measuring stick.

Maybe for some things, but not athletic conference affiliation. I mean Notre Dame is #101 and Cal-State San Diego is #7. That pretty much tells us the relationship between NSF rankings and conference value, eh?

That wasn’t the point of this exercise though.
03-19-2020 12:41 AM
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Post: #27
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-18-2020 07:52 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Really, the only weird case is Texas at #48. Being in academia, I can assure you that from a faculty POV, an appointment at Texas is as desirable a posting as any public school in the country. ...

In the Shanghai list, they are 45th ... in the world. 28th in the US. That lines up more with the above ... 25-30 is Colorado, Illinois, Minnesota, Texas, Maryland, UCSB.
03-19-2020 03:53 AM
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Post: #28
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-18-2020 08:16 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Quo: would the Public Ivies of the B1G be considered a lateral move by your colleagues?

The B1G only has ONE public ivy (Michigan).

Original Public Ivy list (1985)
The Public Ivies
The original Public Ivies, as Moll listed them in 1985:[2]

College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, Virginia)
Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)
University of California (nine campuses as of 1985)[7]
University of Michigan (Ann Arbor)
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
University of Texas at Austin
University of Vermont (Burlington)
University of Virginia (Charlottesville)
03-19-2020 04:43 AM
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Post: #29
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
As lovely as it is to suggest that my Alma Mater, Miami U, 1985 Public Ivy, is a superior school to Whiskey, Illinois, Minnesota and Maryland, we're not on the Shanghai list of the top 1,000 Universities of the world, and the Big Ten has (US rankings):
16/17 That School Up North
19 Wisconsin
21 Northwestern
25/26 Illinois
27 Minnesota
29 Maryland
35 Purdue
44 Penn State
45 Ohio State
46-58 Indiana (101-150 world tier)
46-58 Michigan State
46-58 Rutgers
67-94 Iowa (151-200 world tier)
67-94 Nebraska

It's conceivable that in the 1/3 of a century since that list was compiled, some things have evolved in American higher education.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2020 07:54 AM by BruceMcF.)
03-19-2020 07:01 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-18-2020 08:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 07:52 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 05:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  But they are a pretty weak rating system. They heavily favor private schools with some of their criteria.

Thing is, though, that's not controversial in academia. E.g., the current US News top 5 are Princeton, Harvard, Columbia, MIT, and Yale. All private, and all would get no argument from anyone as being in the academic top 10.

Really, the only weird case is Texas at #48. Being in academia, I can assure you that from a faculty POV, an appointment at Texas is as desirable a posting as any public school in the country. Even places like Rice and Notre Dame would be regarded as lateral moves from there, the only places that would be regarded as promotions would be to the Ivies and a few peers like Cal-Tech and Stanford.

I don't think there's any disagreement about those, but I think when you get beyond the top 5 or 10 privates, you do get a lot who aren't considered as good as some of the top publics, but are rated above them.

Agreed.

Chicago, Duke, MIT, Stanford, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, 5 of the Ivies, Cal, and Michigan are the elite.

Several other private schools are very good. The D-3 UAA Conference, Rice, Vanderbilt, Tulane. Boston College, Miami, and Syracuse are a step below most Big 10 schools, but still very respectable.

Beyond that.... most in the Big East, A-10, Villanova, Lehigh, Loyola Marymount, etc have fewer resources than MAC schools like Miami or Toledo. I have a friend who was very disappointed when he got a job offer from Gonzaga (#79 in US News) but was rejected from San Diego State (#147). I have friends who work at Loyola Marymount (#65) and Lehigh (#50) and I'm positive most of them would leave immediately if they were offered a position at nearby UC Riverside (#91) or Temple (#118). It would probably be a 30-50% salary increase, and they'd get to teach fewer classes.
03-19-2020 08:48 AM
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RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-19-2020 08:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Beyond that.... most in the Big East, A-10, Villanova, Lehigh, Loyola Marymount, etc have fewer resources than MAC schools like Miami or Toledo. I have a friend who was very disappointed when he got a job offer from Gonzaga (#79 in US News) but was rejected from San Diego State (#147). I have friends who work at Loyola Marymount (#65) and Lehigh (#50) and I'm positive most of them would leave immediately if they were offered a position at nearby UC Riverside (#91) or Temple (#118). It would probably be a 30-50% salary increase, and they'd get to teach fewer classes.

Again the Academic Ranking of World Universities lines up with that better than USNWR rankings:

59-66 UC-Riverside
95-116 Temple
138-155 SDSU
156-171 Lehigh
NR Gonzaga
NR Loyola Marymount

It's STEM centric, to be sure, but as a results based ranking, the kinds of things that make a University more attractive to academics often translate into being able to hire academics that generate the results that the ARWU ranks.

And, of course, there's long been a split between what makes a University an excellent place for an undergraduate to pursue a degree and an excellent place for generating academic status.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2020 10:07 AM by BruceMcF.)
03-19-2020 10:06 AM
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Post: #32
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-19-2020 12:41 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 11:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 08:53 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Research and development is the life blood and real measuring stick.

Maybe for some things, but not athletic conference affiliation. I mean Notre Dame is #101 and Cal-State San Diego is #7. That pretty much tells us the relationship between NSF rankings and conference value, eh?

That wasn’t the point of this exercise though.

OK, let's go back to the OP, who takes about "academic strength". Nobody in academia ranks Cal-State San Diego over Notre Dame either.

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03-19-2020 10:12 AM
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Post: #33
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-19-2020 07:01 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  As lovely as it is to suggest that my Alma Mater, Miami U, 1985 Public Ivy, is a superior school to Whiskey, Illinois, Minnesota and Maryland, we're not on the Shanghai list of the top 1,000 Universities of the world, and the Big Ten has (US rankings):
16/17 That School Up North
19 Wisconsin
21 Northwestern
25/26 Illinois
27 Minnesota
29 Maryland
35 Purdue
44 Penn State
45 Ohio State
46-58 Indiana (101-150 world tier)
46-58 Michigan State
46-58 Rutgers
67-94 Iowa (151-200 world tier)
67-94 Nebraska

It's conceivable that in the 1/3 of a century since that list was compiled, some things have evolved in American higher education.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to reach to China when searching for good non-biased numbers.
03-19-2020 10:58 AM
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RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
1) ACC
2) Pac-12
3) B1G
4) SEC
5) Big 12

The gap from 3 to 4 is enormous. The gap from 4 to 5 isn't small either.
03-19-2020 11:00 AM
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Post: #35
Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
It’s pretty obvious that Texas Tech and West Virginia are dragging the rest of the Big 12 down ...They are the very Bottom ranked P5 teams ...


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03-19-2020 01:08 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-19-2020 11:00 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  1) ACC
2) Pac-12
3) B1G
4) SEC
5) Big 12

The gap from 3 to 4 is enormous. The gap from 4 to 5 isn't small either.

Correct, even with Louisville, the ACC is the strongest academic conference in the P5.04-bow
03-19-2020 01:54 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-19-2020 01:54 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 11:00 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  1) ACC
2) Pac-12
3) B1G
4) SEC
5) Big 12

The gap from 3 to 4 is enormous. The gap from 4 to 5 isn't small either.

Correct, even with Louisville, the ACC is the strongest academic conference in the P5.04-bow

We appreciate what you think about Louisville.
03-19-2020 02:19 PM
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RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-19-2020 02:19 PM)IHAVETRIED Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 01:54 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 11:00 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  1) ACC
2) Pac-12
3) B1G
4) SEC
5) Big 12

The gap from 3 to 4 is enormous. The gap from 4 to 5 isn't small either.

Correct, even with Louisville, the ACC is the strongest academic conference in the P5.04-bow

We appreciate what you think about Louisville.

Strictly speaking he's accurate. If you play your cards like FSU though you can climb the rankings pretty quick.
03-19-2020 02:27 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-19-2020 02:27 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 02:19 PM)IHAVETRIED Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 01:54 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(03-19-2020 11:00 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  1) ACC
2) Pac-12
3) B1G
4) SEC
5) Big 12

The gap from 3 to 4 is enormous. The gap from 4 to 5 isn't small either.

Correct, even with Louisville, the ACC is the strongest academic conference in the P5.04-bow

We appreciate what you think about Louisville.

Strictly speaking he's accurate. If you play your cards like FSU though you can climb the rankings pretty quick.

I do like being fortunate enough to be from one of the more honest schools in the ACC. At least Louisville "fessed up".
03-19-2020 02:34 PM
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RE: Strongest & Weakest P5 conference academically?
(03-19-2020 11:00 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  1) ACC
2) Pac-12
3) B1G

I think the top 3 are all about even. They each have different strengths. E.g., the PAC and ACC have "higher peaks" than the B1G, but the B1G has fewer dregs at the bottom.

So my choice would be the B1G at the top, but that's just me.

Also, I don't think ND can count for the ACC, only full members should count.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2020 02:36 PM by quo vadis.)
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