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Kansas should be National Champs
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EvilVodka Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 04:50 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 02:42 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 01:31 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Does the AP award a basketball trophy for its final poll in the same way that it does for football? (I honestly don’t know.)

There’s no way that the NCAA is going to award anything official, but that doesn’t preclude media organizations from awarding championship trophies.

Bingo ^^^

we have a winner. As has been done in college football for YEARS, other entities besides the NCAA can award a national championship

An entire college bball regular season has been played, and no champ?

College Football would say, "hold my beer"

Except .... college football and basketball have radically different traditions with regards to choosing a champ. Polls are old hat in football, never used in basketball.

yes

college football - regular season is paramount

college basketball - regular season is an afterthought
03-14-2020 04:57 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 03:09 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 02:43 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 02:06 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  This season should be treated like the 1994 World Series, which ended in a strike and with no champion. But since the regular season was completed, post-season awards can be given in NCAA basketball and the tournament committee can put together the seedlings based on the play up to the suspension of the season. Post-season awards were given in 1994 in baseball. But there will be no true champion, just like in baseball in 1994.

no...that is dumb

Your response is dumb. There was no way in 1994 that you could declare a champion without the playoffs and a World Series. There is no way you can declare a champion in NCAA basketball without a tournament.

Like I said, college football has done it for decades, with even fewer games played in the regular season

a tournament is preferred, but not required. There was an entire regular season of games played for no reason in 2020 according to your logic
03-14-2020 05:04 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 02:06 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  This season should be treated like the 1994 World Series, which ended in a strike and with no champion. But since the regular season was completed, post-season awards can be given in NCAA basketball and the tournament committee can put together the seedlings based on the play up to the suspension of the season. Post-season awards were given in 1994 in baseball. But there will be no true champion, just like in baseball in 1994.

The Reds had the best record in baseball in 1981. They didn't even make the playoffs which used split seasons. They played 1 less game than the Dodgers and were a half back in the 1st half and were 1.5 back of the Astros in the 2nd half. ST. Louis, who had the 2nd best NL record didn't make it either.

Overall records
NL Cincinnati 66-42
AL Oakland 64-45
NL St. Louis 59-43
NL LA 63-47
AL Milwaukee 62-47

NL playoffs were #3(in NL) LA vs. #5 Houston and #4 Montreal vs. #6 Philadelphia.
AL playoffs were #1 Oakland vs. #10 Kansas City and #2 Milwaukee vs. #5 NY Yankees.

Still the Dodgers beat the Yankees in the World Series and were champs. But the season deserves a big asterisk.
03-14-2020 05:07 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 05:04 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 03:09 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 02:43 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 02:06 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  This season should be treated like the 1994 World Series, which ended in a strike and with no champion. But since the regular season was completed, post-season awards can be given in NCAA basketball and the tournament committee can put together the seedlings based on the play up to the suspension of the season. Post-season awards were given in 1994 in baseball. But there will be no true champion, just like in baseball in 1994.

no...that is dumb

Your response is dumb. There was no way in 1994 that you could declare a champion without the playoffs and a World Series. There is no way you can declare a champion in NCAA basketball without a tournament.

Like I said, college football has done it for decades, with even fewer games played in the regular season

a tournament is preferred, but not required. There was an entire regular season of games played for no reason in 2020 according to your logic

The last time an overall No.1 seed won the tournament was in 2013 with Louisville. The chances are that Kansas, if they were the No. 1 ranked and the No.1 seed, would have lost in the tournament. I am for the tournament committee doing a seeding of the likely 68 teams in the tournament, but beyond that there is no point is no point in declaring a national champion. It didn't work out this year.

As for college football, it was always somewhat subjective as to which team was the best in the country. It was left to football writers to make the determination in the past. But it least they completed the season plus the bowl games.
03-14-2020 05:42 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 05:07 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 02:06 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  This season should be treated like the 1994 World Series, which ended in a strike and with no champion. But since the regular season was completed, post-season awards can be given in NCAA basketball and the tournament committee can put together the seedlings based on the play up to the suspension of the season. Post-season awards were given in 1994 in baseball. But there will be no true champion, just like in baseball in 1994.

The Reds had the best record in baseball in 1981. They didn't even make the playoffs which used split seasons. They played 1 less game than the Dodgers and were a half back in the 1st half and were 1.5 back of the Astros in the 2nd half. ST. Louis, who had the 2nd best NL record didn't make it either.

Overall records
NL Cincinnati 66-42
AL Oakland 64-45
NL St. Louis 59-43
NL LA 63-47
AL Milwaukee 62-47

NL playoffs were #3(in NL) LA vs. #5 Houston and #4 Montreal vs. #6 Philadelphia.
AL playoffs were #1 Oakland vs. #10 Kansas City and #2 Milwaukee vs. #5 NY Yankees.

Still the Dodgers beat the Yankees in the World Series and were champs. But the season deserves a big asterisk.

I did not like the way MLB handled that strike shortened season. They screwed the Reds. The 1981 season will always have an asterisk because the team with the best record in baseball did not make the playoffs.
03-14-2020 05:48 PM
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Post: #26
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 05:48 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  I did not like the way MLB handled that strike shortened season. They screwed the Reds. The 1981 season will always have an asterisk because the team with the best record in baseball did not make the playoffs.

The 1981 season deserves an "asterisk" because there was a two-month strike that wiped out more than 50 games, meaning only 67% of a regular season's worth of games were played. That still makes it better than say the 1999 NBA season, in which only 61% of a regular season was played, or the 1982 NFL season, in which only 56% of a regular season was played, but 33% of a season is a lot to miss, making it not fairly comparable to a title won over a 162 game season.

But what the 1981 season does NOT deserve an asterisk for is the Reds missing the playoffs. The Reds "best record in baseball" crap is just that, because during the strike, the MLB announced that the winners of the first half of the season and of the second half of the season would make the playoffs. This makes the Reds having the best overall record meaningless, as the winners of the first half of the season had much less incentive to put out effort in the second half.

And we saw that in the NL results - the Phillies were 13 games above .500 to win their division in what became the first half of the season, but 2 games below during the second half. Likewise, the Dodgers were 15 games above .500 to win first half, just 1 game up during the second half. Same thing happened in the AL - the winners of the first half of the season, the Yankees and As, fell dramatically in the second half of the season. Lack of motivation.

So if anyone thinks the 1981 Dodgers title isn't as valid as the 1980 Phillies or 1982 Cardinals, I'm with you - but not because of anything having to do with the Reds.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2020 06:49 PM by quo vadis.)
03-14-2020 06:47 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
Often the team that's ranked as #1 at the close of the regular season, is not the eventual winner of the NCAA tournament. Kansas was at the top of the polls as the regular season finished. Recognize it for what it is.

The problem trying to have a delayed tournament, say during the early summer, even with a downsized number of schools; is that multiple teams will not be the same. A lot of players are graduating, others will have summer jobs, others summer classes, then there may be eligibility and transfer questions.

Just all accept the 2019-20 college basketball season has concluded.
03-14-2020 07:37 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 06:47 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 05:48 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  I did not like the way MLB handled that strike shortened season. They screwed the Reds. The 1981 season will always have an asterisk because the team with the best record in baseball did not make the playoffs.

The 1981 season deserves an "asterisk" because there was a two-month strike that wiped out more than 50 games, meaning only 67% of a regular season's worth of games were played. That still makes it better than say the 1999 NBA season, in which only 61% of a regular season was played, or the 1982 NFL season, in which only 56% of a regular season was played, but 33% of a season is a lot to miss, making it not fairly comparable to a title won over a 162 game season.

But what the 1981 season does NOT deserve an asterisk for is the Reds missing the playoffs. The Reds "best record in baseball" crap is just that, because during the strike, the MLB announced that the winners of the first half of the season and of the second half of the season would make the playoffs. This makes the Reds having the best overall record meaningless, as the winners of the first half of the season had much less incentive to put out effort in the second half.

And we saw that in the NL results - the Phillies were 13 games above .500 to win their division in what became the first half of the season, but 2 games below during the second half. Likewise, the Dodgers were 15 games above .500 to win first half, just 1 game up during the second half. Same thing happened in the AL - the winners of the first half of the season, the Yankees and As, fell dramatically in the second half of the season. Lack of motivation.

So if anyone thinks the 1981 Dodgers title isn't as valid as the 1980 Phillies or 1982 Cardinals, I'm with you - but not because of anything having to do with the Reds.

No. MLB decided to award a first half division title because of the teams involved. They were guaranteed to have the Los Angeles Dodgers, New York Yankees, Philadelphia Phillies and Oakland A's in the playoffs. That worked well for television, but it was not the right thing to do. As it turned out, the Reds won the NL West that season by four games over the second place Dodgers. The Reds lost the first half title because they had played one less game than the Dodgers. They were even in the loss column.

The Phillies and the Yankees both finished third overall in their division. They had no business being in the playoffs. None of the first half winners won the second half. As you noted, there was no incentive for these teams to play hard in the second half of the season. That was just wrong and it taints the season. Teams did not play the same amount of games. The Orioles had the least amount of losses in the AL East that season, but they did not make the playoffs.

The 1981 season will always be tainted to me. They should have taken the top two teams from each division and had an eight team playoff. As for the NBA, I actually enjoyed that 1999 season. The NBA plays too many regular season games. Somewhere between 60-70 games would be ideal, but that is just my opinion.
03-14-2020 07:46 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 07:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 06:47 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 05:48 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  I did not like the way MLB handled that strike shortened season. They screwed the Reds. The 1981 season will always have an asterisk because the team with the best record in baseball did not make the playoffs.

The 1981 season deserves an "asterisk" because there was a two-month strike that wiped out more than 50 games, meaning only 67% of a regular season's worth of games were played. That still makes it better than say the 1999 NBA season, in which only 61% of a regular season was played, or the 1982 NFL season, in which only 56% of a regular season was played, but 33% of a season is a lot to miss, making it not fairly comparable to a title won over a 162 game season.

But what the 1981 season does NOT deserve an asterisk for is the Reds missing the playoffs. The Reds "best record in baseball" crap is just that, because during the strike, the MLB announced that the winners of the first half of the season and of the second half of the season would make the playoffs. This makes the Reds having the best overall record meaningless, as the winners of the first half of the season had much less incentive to put out effort in the second half.

And we saw that in the NL results - the Phillies were 13 games above .500 to win their division in what became the first half of the season, but 2 games below during the second half. Likewise, the Dodgers were 15 games above .500 to win first half, just 1 game up during the second half. Same thing happened in the AL - the winners of the first half of the season, the Yankees and As, fell dramatically in the second half of the season. Lack of motivation.

So if anyone thinks the 1981 Dodgers title isn't as valid as the 1980 Phillies or 1982 Cardinals, I'm with you - but not because of anything having to do with the Reds.

No. MLB decided to award a first half division title because of the teams involved. They were guaranteed to have the Los Angeles Dodgers, New York Yankees, Philadelphia Phillies and Oakland A's in the playoffs. That worked well for television, but it was not the right thing to do. As it turned out, the Reds won the NL West that season by four games over the second place Dodgers. The Reds lost the first half title because they had played one less game than the Dodgers. They were even in the loss column.

The Phillies and the Yankees both finished third overall in their division. They had no business being in the playoffs. None of the first half winners won the second half. As you noted, there was no incentive for these teams to play hard in the second half of the season. That was just wrong and it taints the season. Teams did not play the same amount of games. The Orioles had the least amount of losses in the AL East that season, but they did not make the playoffs.

The 1981 season will always be tainted to me. They should have taken the top two teams from each division and had an eight team playoff. As for the NBA, I actually enjoyed that 1999 season. The NBA plays too many regular season games. Somewhere between 60-70 games would be ideal, but that is just my opinion.
There wasn't a balanced schedule. The Dodgers had an extra game. Similarly in the 2nd half in the East, the Expos played one more game than the Cardinals who had the best record for the season in the East. And nobody knew what the standard was at the time of the strike.
03-14-2020 07:51 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
If I'm Dayton or Gonzaga or SDSU, I'd hang a national championship banner for 2020.

If the NCAA wants to cancel the postseason, then we should go back to how teams claimed championships before the postseason existed.
03-14-2020 11:11 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 11:11 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  If I'm Dayton or Gonzaga or SDSU, I'd hang a national championship banner for 2020.

Why them? Why not 20 other teams?
03-14-2020 11:44 PM
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RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 11:44 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 11:11 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  If I'm Dayton or Gonzaga or SDSU, I'd hang a national championship banner for 2020.

Why them? Why not 20 other teams?

Because they're the only ones with any data to back them up, other than Kansas.

And it matters more to those schools than it does to Kansas. Kansas fans get Final-4 teams every 4-5 years. But those other 3 teams have only had 1 Final Four in the last 50 years.
03-14-2020 11:53 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
The University of South Carolina women's basketball team has to be very disappointed. Oregon, Baylor, and others felt they had a good shot at a national championship.
03-15-2020 09:51 AM
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Post: #34
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 11:53 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 11:44 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 11:11 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  If I'm Dayton or Gonzaga or SDSU, I'd hang a national championship banner for 2020.

Why them? Why not 20 other teams?

Because they're the only ones with any data to back them up, other than Kansas.

I just looked at Dayton's schedule. They have a 29-2 record, but only 4 games played vs P5 teams. They are 27-0 vs non-P5, but 2-2 vs P5 teams. That's "data" to be national champs?

And "Data" means nothing in college hoops, you have to win the tournament. Any school that hangs a banner is just being absurd, like UCF in 2017.

We know, e.g., that in the last 20 years, the team with the best data going in has only won the title two times. Means zero.
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2020 11:13 AM by quo vadis.)
03-15-2020 10:48 AM
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RE: Kansas should be National Champs
I understand that South Carolina (#1 team in womens hoops) fully intends to claim a national championship this year.
03-16-2020 07:55 AM
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RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-15-2020 09:51 AM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  The University of South Carolina women's basketball team has to be very disappointed. Oregon, Baylor, and others felt they had a good shot at a national championship.

The good think we have going for us is we beat #3, 4, 5 and 9 (twice) and have by far the best resume. It's a little bit stronger than the Kansas claim would be and Oregon would realistically be the only other team that has a reasonable claim otherwise.
03-16-2020 07:58 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 02:34 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 01:15 PM)Bogg Wrote:  Win it on the court or you haven't won it at all.

so why did you they all play the regular season? you can't crown a champ from the regular season? college football did it that way for DECADES

Was the regular season played on the court?

They played the regular season for the same reason every other sport that awards an NCAA (and for that matter, major professional) championship does. FBS doesn't have an NCAA championship awarded and needs to protect its lucrative "everyone's a winner" postseason setup where any third-rate program that manages to finish .500 can sell a successful year to their donors off the back of the such-and-such bowl.
03-16-2020 09:15 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-14-2020 07:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 06:47 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-14-2020 05:48 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  I did not like the way MLB handled that strike shortened season. They screwed the Reds. The 1981 season will always have an asterisk because the team with the best record in baseball did not make the playoffs.

The 1981 season deserves an "asterisk" because there was a two-month strike that wiped out more than 50 games, meaning only 67% of a regular season's worth of games were played. That still makes it better than say the 1999 NBA season, in which only 61% of a regular season was played, or the 1982 NFL season, in which only 56% of a regular season was played, but 33% of a season is a lot to miss, making it not fairly comparable to a title won over a 162 game season.

But what the 1981 season does NOT deserve an asterisk for is the Reds missing the playoffs. The Reds "best record in baseball" crap is just that, because during the strike, the MLB announced that the winners of the first half of the season and of the second half of the season would make the playoffs. This makes the Reds having the best overall record meaningless, as the winners of the first half of the season had much less incentive to put out effort in the second half.

And we saw that in the NL results - the Phillies were 13 games above .500 to win their division in what became the first half of the season, but 2 games below during the second half. Likewise, the Dodgers were 15 games above .500 to win first half, just 1 game up during the second half. Same thing happened in the AL - the winners of the first half of the season, the Yankees and As, fell dramatically in the second half of the season. Lack of motivation.

So if anyone thinks the 1981 Dodgers title isn't as valid as the 1980 Phillies or 1982 Cardinals, I'm with you - but not because of anything having to do with the Reds.

No. MLB decided to award a first half division title because of the teams involved. They were guaranteed to have the Los Angeles Dodgers, New York Yankees, Philadelphia Phillies and Oakland A's in the playoffs. That worked well for television, but it was not the right thing to do. As it turned out, the Reds won the NL West that season by four games over the second place Dodgers. The Reds lost the first half title because they had played one less game than the Dodgers. They were even in the loss column.

The Phillies and the Yankees both finished third overall in their division. They had no business being in the playoffs. None of the first half winners won the second half. As you noted, there was no incentive for these teams to play hard in the second half of the season. That was just wrong and it taints the season. Teams did not play the same amount of games. The Orioles had the least amount of losses in the AL East that season, but they did not make the playoffs.

I agree that 1981 is a "tainted" year, an "*" year.

I just disagree with the idea that it is so *because* teams like the Reds and Cardinals had the best overall records but did not make the playoffs. That's because during the strike, it was established that the playoffs would be done via a first half/second half system. As you agree, the first half winners had little incentive to play hard in the second half, which means that having the best overall record like the Reds did doesn't mean anything, because they didn't beat out teams that were trying their hardest.

And therefore I also disagree that a team like the Phillies didn't belong. They were the defending World Series champs, and had the best record in their division as of the time of the strike. It is quite possible they finished 3rd "overall" only because they had no incentive to win games in the second half of the season, so you can't hold their "overall" record against them.

As for the NBA, I agree, I have always thought 82 games is too long. I would love to see a 60 game schedule. Nevertheless, 1999 was obviously very different than other years in length of season, so Phil Jackson was right when he taunted the Spurs about an 'asterisk' around their 1999 title.

And I "hate" Jackson, LOL.
(This post was last modified: 03-16-2020 09:36 AM by quo vadis.)
03-16-2020 09:31 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Kansas should be National Champs
Kansas 2019/20 National Champions. Place one of these >* next to it and let's move on. I'm good with it because the regular season had to matter for something.
03-16-2020 09:49 AM
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RE: Kansas should be National Champs
(03-16-2020 09:49 AM)cubucks Wrote:  Kansas 2019/20 National Champions.

No thank you.

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03-16-2020 09:51 AM
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