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soccerguy315 Offline
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Post: #401
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 07:39 AM)Swemster Wrote:  
(06-29-2020 11:20 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  Must have missed the part of Dr. Williamson's letter where he offered to give up his pay for August - December. Or at least take a heavy cut since he will be providing inferior online content to his customers.

This is misguided-- sure, most kids prefer FTF learning but when done correctly, online instruction is effective. Here's hoping the biology department along with the rest of the school is using this time to better prepare for large-scale online instruction. There's a difference between "emergency online learning" and "online learning."

And preparing classes to move online is not an easy task. Professors are likely sacrificing valuable time that would typically be spent on research this summer to redesign their courses around the new semester calendar and online setting.

Every single student at W&M could've decided to get their degree online. But instead, for some reason, they chose to attend W&M and experience the teaching methods used there.
06-30-2020 08:29 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #402
COVID-19
Luckily, professors don't get to choose. The BOV, President Rowe, and AD Huge drive on that lane.


This professor gets to decide if he's willing to forfeit some or all of the $90k he makes to teach at W&M.

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06-30-2020 08:35 AM
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Swemster Offline
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Post: #403
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 08:29 AM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  
(06-30-2020 07:39 AM)Swemster Wrote:  
(06-29-2020 11:20 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  Must have missed the part of Dr. Williamson's letter where he offered to give up his pay for August - December. Or at least take a heavy cut since he will be providing inferior online content to his customers.

This is misguided-- sure, most kids prefer FTF learning but when done correctly, online instruction is effective. Here's hoping the biology department along with the rest of the school is using this time to better prepare for large-scale online instruction. There's a difference between "emergency online learning" and "online learning."

And preparing classes to move online is not an easy task. Professors are likely sacrificing valuable time that would typically be spent on research this summer to redesign their courses around the new semester calendar and online setting.

Every single student at W&M could've decided to get their degree online. But instead, for some reason, they chose to attend W&M and experience the teaching methods used there.

Right-- most of them chose to do so outside of a time altered by a global pandemic. "The teaching methods used there," I hate to break it to you, already included expanding online instruction even before things had to be rushed online.
06-30-2020 08:45 AM
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Swemster Offline
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Post: #404
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 08:35 AM)Tribal Wrote:  Luckily, professors don't get to choose. The BOV, President Rowe, and AD Huge drive on that lane.


This professor gets to decide if he's willing to forfeit some or all of the $90k he makes to teach at W&M.

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What's the rationale for professors having to take the whole hit here? Assuming you're talking about financial losses due to not having students on campus. Not sure why professors are the ones that should carry the brunt of that burden-- this is a safety and public health decision over anything else.
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2020 08:58 AM by Swemster.)
06-30-2020 08:47 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #405
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 08:47 AM)Swemster Wrote:  
(06-30-2020 08:35 AM)Tribal Wrote:  Luckily, professors don't get to choose. The BOV, President Rowe, and AD Huge drive on that lane.


This professor gets to decide if he's willing to forfeit some or all of the $90k he makes to teach at W&M.

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What's the rationale for professors having to take the whole hit here? Assuming you're talking about financial losses due to not having students on campus. Not sure why professors are the ones that should carry the brunt of that burden-- this is a safety and public health decision over anything else.
I responded to soccerguy mentioning professors driving program cuts and possibly salary cuts. I merely pointed out that some or all of HIS $90k salary may take a hit if he so chooses. Professors don't get to choose which programs get cut, which take a hit, or what W&M does with its budget.

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06-30-2020 09:05 AM
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TribeInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #406
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 08:25 AM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  
(06-29-2020 11:47 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  
(06-29-2020 11:20 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  Must have missed the part of Dr. Williamson's letter where he offered to give up his pay for August - December. Or at least take a heavy cut since he will be providing inferior online content to his customers.

You did miss it, it was in this part in the paragraph at the start of the last page: "I am also aware that, in taking this approach, there will be casualties in the form of programs that can no longer be supported, furloughs, and potential salary cuts."

Sounds like he is willing to cut programs he doesn't like, and maybe take a salary cut if necessary. Hope you are ready to see Tribe Athletics cut substantially if the professors get to choose which programs are cut. :)
That's a lot of assuming there. He doesn't go into detail I think on purpose, but his expressed point of view is that he's in favor of unspecified budget tightening over bringing students back to campus in the fall. You could email him to find out more though.
06-30-2020 09:17 AM
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Swemster Offline
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Post: #407
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 09:05 AM)Tribal Wrote:  
(06-30-2020 08:47 AM)Swemster Wrote:  
(06-30-2020 08:35 AM)Tribal Wrote:  Luckily, professors don't get to choose. The BOV, President Rowe, and AD Huge drive on that lane.


This professor gets to decide if he's willing to forfeit some or all of the $90k he makes to teach at W&M.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

What's the rationale for professors having to take the whole hit here? Assuming you're talking about financial losses due to not having students on campus. Not sure why professors are the ones that should carry the brunt of that burden-- this is a safety and public health decision over anything else.
I responded to soccerguy mentioning professors driving program cuts and possibly salary cuts. I merely pointed out that some or all of HIS $90k salary may take a hit if he so chooses. Professors don't get to choose which programs get cut, which take a hit, or what W&M does with its budget.

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Yeah. It's gonna be an institution-wide hit and I think you're right that faculty are unfortunately gonna be the ones on the receiving end of the finger-pointing from those opposed to going online. At least in Williamson's department, they're in the best position to make suggestions based on science. My point though is that online instruction =/= easier job for professors, which seems to be a misconception and could make people more prone to making statements like "it should come out of their paychecks." Not saying you made that statement explicitly but that seems to be a dominant narrative.
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2020 09:22 AM by Swemster.)
06-30-2020 09:20 AM
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Tribe32 Online
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Post: #408
RE: COVID-19
On-line instruction is one of Rowe's strategies to expand the student body.
06-30-2020 09:41 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #409
COVID-19
When W&M decides to go with in-class, hybrid, or online instruction, professors will decide to follow that structure or each may opt out. If they take the decision to opt out, I assume they risk losing their status, pay, and benefits unless they can prove unsafe working conditions or some violation of an Act or Code. I really do think leadership and professors will find a reasonable solution given they're adults and all.

Same for students (and their parents) - if they refuse to abide by the housing or educational structure, they should be able to opt out but probably run the risk of losing any deposit or even tuition. W&M owes each student an education but our university is under no obligation to provide that education according to how each student wants to learn. Opting out for a year or transferring are options. I tore my ACL my junior year and recovered at home in NoVA. I worked with professors to email some assignments but I had to travel to W'burg to take finals. They owed me an education but they were not obligated to fulfill that requirement according to how I wanted to be educated. It never occurred to me to make demands or kick up a fuss.

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06-30-2020 09:44 AM
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HyperDuke Offline
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Post: #410
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 09:44 AM)Tribal Wrote:  It never occurred to me to make demands or kick up a fuss.

I suspect you were also raised by people who instilled personal responsibility into you at a young age. In my experience, most parents don’t follow that route with their kids in school anymore. Kid failed his algebra test at school? Time to demand answers from the teacher since my kid told me they studied!
06-30-2020 10:12 AM
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TDenverFan Online
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Post: #411
RE: COVID-19
I'm certain every school in the nation (Well, save for maybe Liberty) is making as many contingency plans as possible. At this point, I think the best case scenario is the plan WM released a week or so back.

There's a ton of different scenarios that could happen in the fall, and I trust the leadership to be about as prepared as they can be.
06-30-2020 10:28 AM
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mrjoolius Offline
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Post: #412
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 10:12 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  I suspect you were also raised by people who instilled personal responsibility into you at a young age. In my experience, most parents don’t follow that route with their kids in school anymore. Kid failed his algebra test at school? Time to demand answers from the teacher since my kid told me they studied!
100% this. The stories I hear from my elementary school teacher wife have me shaking my head. There are always reasons and excuses for grades or behavior. It is not possible that it is the fault of their little angel. Hopefully a positive byproduct of being stuck at home with their kids for distance learning, they get to see just how "wonderful" their children are.
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2020 10:33 AM by mrjoolius.)
06-30-2020 10:30 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #413
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 10:30 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  
(06-30-2020 10:12 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  I suspect you were also raised by people who instilled personal responsibility into you at a young age. In my experience, most parents don’t follow that route with their kids in school anymore. Kid failed his algebra test at school? Time to demand answers from the teacher since my kid told me they studied!
100% this. The stories I hear from my elementary school teacher wife have me shaking my head. There are always reasons and excuses for grades or behavior. It is not possible that it is the fault of their little angel. Hopefully a positive byproduct of being stuck at home with their kids for distance learning, they get to see just how "wonderful" their children are.
Easy, tiger. Ha ha

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06-30-2020 11:14 AM
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TribeInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #414
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 10:30 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  
(06-30-2020 10:12 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  I suspect you were also raised by people who instilled personal responsibility into you at a young age. In my experience, most parents don’t follow that route with their kids in school anymore. Kid failed his algebra test at school? Time to demand answers from the teacher since my kid told me they studied!
100% this. The stories I hear from my elementary school teacher wife have me shaking my head. There are always reasons and excuses for grades or behavior. It is not possible that it is the fault of their little angel. Hopefully a positive byproduct of being stuck at home with their kids for distance learning, they get to see just how "wonderful" their children are.
To be fair, that was happening when I was in school 30 some odd years ago. It's not specific to the current generation of students.
06-30-2020 11:25 AM
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WMTribe90 Offline
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Post: #415
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 09:44 AM)Tribal Wrote:  When W&M decides to go with in-class, hybrid, or online instruction, professors will decide to follow that structure or each may opt out. If they take the decision to opt out, I assume they risk losing their status, pay, and benefits unless they can prove unsafe working conditions or some violation of an Act or Code. I really do think leadership and professors will find a reasonable solution given they're adults and all.

Same for students (and their parents) - if they refuse to abide by the housing or educational structure, they should be able to opt out but probably run the risk of losing any deposit or even tuition. W&M owes each student an education but our university is under no obligation to provide that education according to how each student wants to learn. Opting out for a year or transferring are options. I tore my ACL my junior year and recovered at home in NoVA. I worked with professors to email some assignments but I had to travel to W'burg to take finals. They owed me an education but they were not obligated to fulfill that requirement according to how I wanted to be educated. It never occurred to me to make demands or kick up a fuss.

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WM is obligated to provide an education in a reasonably safe environment. This is why there’s campus police and a student health center. The school’s obligation to the student body are not limited strictly to academia and don’t start and end at the classroom threshold. The “entitled youth” narrative does not really fit this situation, because they really are entitled to an education that does not unduly risk their health. No one is asking for or suggesting that each student is entitled to an individualized plan.

To be clear, I’m generally in favor of a return to campus for the majority of students and faculty with limited online accommodations for at risk or vulnerable students and faculty members (hybrid approach). The bio professor is not the ultimate decision maker, but Rowe would be wise to listen to the experts and I imagine she will continue to do just that. The worsening situation in AZ, TX, FL, etc. shows the peril of ignoring experts when it comes to opening back up too quickly or too much both to public health and the economy.
06-30-2020 11:28 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #416
COVID-19
Don't you think that any plan moving forward will be with reasonable measures in place? My point is, faculty, staff, and students have options...follow the plan or don't participate.

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(This post was last modified: 06-30-2020 11:49 AM by Tribal.)
06-30-2020 11:48 AM
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LeadBolt Offline
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Post: #417
RE: COVID-19
I see the National Pediatrics Association is recommending in person, classroom learning for younger kids in the fall due to their need for socialization and low risk. Is the science set and they are ignoring it, or perhaps we don't have enough data and/or not enough time to study the data we have sufficiently ?

Yes I read the article on NPR news and know it doesn't apply to college, but my point is when the nay sayers accuse those who want to move ahead of ignoring the science that is really a misnomer.

Has there been any other time in human history where the healthy, not highly at risk population has been quarantined for a disease with a 95+% recovery rate?
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2020 02:16 PM by LeadBolt.)
06-30-2020 02:10 PM
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TribeInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #418
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 02:10 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  I see the National Pediatrics Association is recommending in person, classroom learning for younger kids in the fall due to their need for socialization and low risk. Is the science set and they are ignoring it, or perhaps we don't have enough data and/or not enough time to study the data we have sufficiently ?

Yes I read the article on NPR news and know it doesn't apply to college, but my point is when the nay sayers accuse those who want to move ahead of ignoring the science that is really a misnomer.

Has there been any other time in human history where the healthy, not highly at risk population has been quarantined for a disease with a 95+% recovery rate?
Who are you arguing with? I think everyone agrees with Tribal's summary: "Don't you think that any plan moving forward will be with reasonable measures in place?"

If they think the risk outweighs the benefits, classes won't be in person this fall. If they think they can mitigate the risk of having an outbreak, that'll happen. Other colleges have already made their decision based on their situation, W&M is still planning/deciding. Our resident virologist weighed in, and I'm sure they're taking his assessment under advisement as well.
06-30-2020 02:28 PM
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soccerguy315 Offline
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Post: #419
RE: COVID-19
(06-30-2020 08:45 AM)Swemster Wrote:  
(06-30-2020 08:29 AM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  
(06-30-2020 07:39 AM)Swemster Wrote:  
(06-29-2020 11:20 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  Must have missed the part of Dr. Williamson's letter where he offered to give up his pay for August - December. Or at least take a heavy cut since he will be providing inferior online content to his customers.

This is misguided-- sure, most kids prefer FTF learning but when done correctly, online instruction is effective. Here's hoping the biology department along with the rest of the school is using this time to better prepare for large-scale online instruction. There's a difference between "emergency online learning" and "online learning."

And preparing classes to move online is not an easy task. Professors are likely sacrificing valuable time that would typically be spent on research this summer to redesign their courses around the new semester calendar and online setting.

Every single student at W&M could've decided to get their degree online. But instead, for some reason, they chose to attend W&M and experience the teaching methods used there.

Right-- most of them chose to do so outside of a time altered by a global pandemic. "The teaching methods used there," I hate to break it to you, already included expanding online instruction even before things had to be rushed online.

My guess is many students (/parents) are not interested in paying W&M tuition in exchange for online education. But I might be wrong; I have no data. (I did see ~60% of Princeton undergrads would consider taking the semester off if their fall semester goes online, and at least 1 Harvard law student suing the school b/c s/he claims the online classes aren't worth the tuition).
06-30-2020 02:53 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #420
COVID-19
Here we go.

This COVID-19 petition to William & Mary (@williamandmary) is great! Please sign and share!

https://t.co/F3OJWrv4ZR

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06-30-2020 04:09 PM
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