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MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #81
RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
Make no mistake, Denver was added to the Big East not because there was some long-term hope of them being added as a full-member, but rather because there was a mutual benefit to both parties in the name of lacrosse.

The Big East began sponsoring men's lacrosse in 2010. Georgetown, Notre Dame, Providence, Rutgers, St. John's, Syracuse, and Villanova all participated. When realignment occurred, Georgetown, Providence, St. John's, and Villanova became members of the reconfigured Big East. Marquette, which announced plans to add the sport for the 2014 season, also joined. Notre Dame and Syracuse joined the ACC, which already sponsored the sport. Rutgers spent the 2014 season in The American before joining the Big Ten. Since Rutgers was the only current or future full member of The American that sponsored men's lacrosse, it remained in Big East lacrosse until the Big Ten began lacrosse competition through 2015.

The ECAC Lacrosse League was a national lacrosse-only conference which had included Georgetown, St. John's, Rutgers and Denver. Needing members, and having a former association and relationship, Denver (with its private status) was a natural fit.

On the women's side, there was a lot of membership changes going back to the early 2000's, and especially with the BE/AAC split. The split left the Big East and The American with too few lacrosse teams for an automatic NCAA bid. The Big East was the league to sponsor women's lacrosse (until 2018, when the AAC began to sponsor it as well, taking its associate members away from the BE). Women's lacrosse will have seven members, with the return of UConn, this summer.

Long-story short - the partnership between the BE and Denver is rooted in lacrosse only, not some larger, grander, long-term plan that could culminate in them eventually becoming a full member. Denver has little-to-no basketball history, little-to-no presence in the NE and has never put forth resources to be competitive in men's basketball (which is totally fine, all athletic departments are different). While there was a fit in lacrosse between both parties, there really is none when it comes to basketball IMO.
03-11-2020 11:57 AM
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BePcr07 Offline
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Post: #82
RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 11:57 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Make no mistake, Denver was added to the Big East not because there was some long-term hope of them being added as a full-member, but rather because there was a mutual benefit to both parties in the name of lacrosse.

The Big East began sponsoring men's lacrosse in 2010. Georgetown, Notre Dame, Providence, Rutgers, St. John's, Syracuse, and Villanova all participated. When realignment occurred, Georgetown, Providence, St. John's, and Villanova became members of the reconfigured Big East. Marquette, which announced plans to add the sport for the 2014 season, also joined. Notre Dame and Syracuse joined the ACC, which already sponsored the sport. Rutgers spent the 2014 season in The American before joining the Big Ten. Since Rutgers was the only current or future full member of The American that sponsored men's lacrosse, it remained in Big East lacrosse until the Big Ten began lacrosse competition through 2015.

The ECAC Lacrosse League was a national lacrosse-only conference which had included Georgetown, St. John's, Rutgers and Denver. Needing members, and having a former association and relationship, Denver (with its private status) was a natural fit.

On the women's side, there was a lot of membership changes going back to the early 2000's, and especially with the BE/AAC split. The split left the Big East and The American with too few lacrosse teams for an automatic NCAA bid. The Big East was the league to sponsor women's lacrosse (until 2018, when the AAC began to sponsor it as well, taking its associate members away from the BE). Women's lacrosse will have seven members, with the return of UConn, this summer.

Long-story short - the partnership between the BE and Denver is rooted in lacrosse only, not some larger, grander, long-term plan that could culminate in them eventually becoming a full member. Denver has little-to-no basketball history, little-to-no presence in the NE and has never put forth resources to be competitive in men's basketball (which is totally fine, all athletic departments are different). While there was a fit in lacrosse between both parties, there really is none when it comes to basketball IMO.

I never believed otherwise. My idea was that if basketball at Denver had a consistent pulse, would they ever become an expansion candidate? I think they're too far west but I'm not 100% sure it'd be a no.
03-11-2020 12:02 PM
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dbackjon Online
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Post: #83
RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
^^ Not unlike Hartford and Binghampton being associate members of the Big Sky for Men's Golf. Gives the Big Sky enough schools to get an auto-bid to regionals, and Hartford and Binghampton a path to an auto-bid
03-11-2020 12:04 PM
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 11:54 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I like what Summit is becoming institutionally. Weird as it may sound, I kind of think UW-M would make a good fit for it, same for UIC. I don't think Horizon is what people make it to be anymore.

If MVC poaches UIC then Summit should make a run at Green Bay and Milwaukee especially if St. Thomas is coming along.
03-11-2020 12:18 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #85
RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 11:54 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I like what Summit is becoming institutionally. Weird as it may sound, I kind of think UW-M would make a good fit for it, same for UIC. I don't think Horizon is what people make it to be anymore.

Depends on the school. If you're a D1 university in the general Great Lakes region looking to play a little basketball but not wanting to break the bank in doing it, the Horizon's a perfectly good league. Definitely think that if, for example, Western Illinois got a Horizon invite they should jump on it for improved geography.

The Summit's well on its way to turning into something coherent though, and if you're going to be a one-bid league the best thing you can be is geographically and culturally coherent (to be clear, I would describe the Horizon this way too).
03-11-2020 12:42 PM
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dbackjon Online
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 11:54 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I like what Summit is becoming institutionally. Weird as it may sound, I kind of think UW-M would make a good fit for it, same for UIC. I don't think Horizon is what people make it to be anymore.

Summit is 22nd in Conference RPI, Horizon is 23rd. No real difference
03-11-2020 01:03 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #87
RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 12:04 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  ^^ Not unlike Hartford and Binghampton being associate members of the Big Sky for Men's Golf. Gives the Big Sky enough schools to get an auto-bid to regionals, and Hartford and Binghampton a path to an auto-bid

I'm not sure whether there IS a level of the NCAA where an associate membership means something more than just "for the needs of this sport, this was the best opportunity to get the numbers we needed" ... but at the P6 BBall level that the Big East plays in, that's all its going to be.
03-11-2020 02:02 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
To what extent would Denver, UND, and Omaha like to make Men’s hockey a Summit League sport?

They could elevate a pair of Minnesota schools and the sport would be in house. I think we can pretty much narrow down all future Summit expansion to that state. The trouble is getting ORU and WIU to leave.
03-11-2020 02:18 PM
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BePcr07 Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 02:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  To what extent would Denver, UND, and Omaha like to make Men’s hockey a Summit League sport?

They could elevate a pair of Minnesota schools and the sport would be in house. I think we can pretty much narrow down all future Summit expansion to that state. The trouble is getting ORU and WIU to leave.

If MVC expands with Murray St and another OVC candidate, I would suspect Western Illinois might be a replacement candidate. Oral Roberts, along with Tarleton St and Texas - Rio Grande Valley (both in the WAC), should move to the Southland and the Southland could split into two conferences.
03-11-2020 02:37 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
I think that the Horizon, Summit and MVC should play musical chairs with the private and public schools with some D2 call ups.

Missouri Valley is the river valley of the Missouri River.

MVC:
North Dakota
NDSU
Omaha
South Dakota
SDSU
Northern Iowa
Missouri State
UMKC

That is only 8 schools. You need 3 to 4 more schools.

Central Oklahoma, Missouri Western, Washburn (former member), Minnesota State-Mankato, Fort Hays State, NW Missouri State, Missouri Soutern and Central Missouri could be there. Lindenwood could be an affiliate.

Summit League:
Denver
Oral Roberts
Saint Thomas
Drake
Detroit Mercy
Bradley
Evansville
Loyola-Chicago
Valparaiso
Bellarmine

That is 10 teams. Lindenwood makes 11.
Drury, Augustana, and Indianapolis could bring them 14 with Indy plays football in the Horizon.

Horizon:
Purdue-Fort Wayne
IUPUI
Milwaukee
Green Bay
UIC
Western Illinois
Illinois State
S. Illinois
Indiana State
Youngstown State
Oakland
Cleveland State
Wright State

That is 13 with Indianapolis as an affiliate in football. They invite Wayne State for 14. They could also invite Grand Valley State and Murray State to go 16 schools with 8 playing football. This could open the door for D2 Michigan schools to join the FCS ranks which the midwest do need more football members at the FCS levels.
03-11-2020 02:38 PM
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dbackjon Online
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 02:02 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(03-11-2020 12:04 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  ^^ Not unlike Hartford and Binghampton being associate members of the Big Sky for Men's Golf. Gives the Big Sky enough schools to get an auto-bid to regionals, and Hartford and Binghampton a path to an auto-bid

I'm not sure whether there IS a level of the NCAA where an associate membership means something more than just "for the needs of this sport, this was the best opportunity to get the numbers we needed" ... but at the P6 BBall level that the Big East plays in, that's all its going to be.

Exactly the point. An Associate membership means nothing. Johns Hopkins and Notre Dame aren't joining the Big 10.
03-11-2020 02:55 PM
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dbackjon Online
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 02:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  To what extent would Denver, UND, and Omaha like to make Men’s hockey a Summit League sport?

They could elevate a pair of Minnesota schools and the sport would be in house. I think we can pretty much narrow down all future Summit expansion to that state. The trouble is getting ORU and WIU to leave.

Zero extent.
03-11-2020 02:55 PM
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 01:03 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-11-2020 11:54 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I like what Summit is becoming institutionally. Weird as it may sound, I kind of think UW-M would make a good fit for it, same for UIC. I don't think Horizon is what people make it to be anymore.

Summit is 22nd in Conference RPI, Horizon is 23rd. No real difference

Historically and financially, the edge goes to the MCC (Horizon) over the Mid-Con (Summit).
03-11-2020 03:24 PM
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dbackjon Online
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 03:24 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(03-11-2020 01:03 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-11-2020 11:54 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I like what Summit is becoming institutionally. Weird as it may sound, I kind of think UW-M would make a good fit for it, same for UIC. I don't think Horizon is what people make it to be anymore.

Summit is 22nd in Conference RPI, Horizon is 23rd. No real difference

Historically and financially, the edge goes to the MCC (Horizon) over the Mid-Con (Summit).

Different line-ups. Similar enough to make a move a lateral one. Only reason to move is like what IUPUI and PFW is doing - save travel costs in a more compact league. Both of them moving saved money for all involved
03-11-2020 03:47 PM
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 02:55 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-11-2020 02:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  To what extent would Denver, UND, and Omaha like to make Men’s hockey a Summit League sport?

They could elevate a pair of Minnesota schools and the sport would be in house. I think we can pretty much narrow down all future Summit expansion to that state. The trouble is getting ORU and WIU to leave.

Zero extent.

Totally wrong.

It's actually less than zero.

(just trying to inject a little levity)
03-11-2020 03:54 PM
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dbackjon Online
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 03:54 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  
(03-11-2020 02:55 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-11-2020 02:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  To what extent would Denver, UND, and Omaha like to make Men’s hockey a Summit League sport?

They could elevate a pair of Minnesota schools and the sport would be in house. I think we can pretty much narrow down all future Summit expansion to that state. The trouble is getting ORU and WIU to leave.

Zero extent.

Totally wrong.

It's actually less than zero.

(just trying to inject a little levity)

Absolute Zero? 02-13-banana
03-11-2020 04:38 PM
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schmolik Online
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 02:55 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Exactly the point. An Associate membership means nothing. Johns Hopkins and Notre Dame aren't joining the Big 10.

If Notre Dame wants in the Big 10 full time, I can't see how they won't be accepted. Johns Hopkins would be a different story.
03-11-2020 05:07 PM
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puck swami Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
As a DU fan, we know that our private status, unique Eastern-style sports mix (without football) and location limits our conference options. We're kind of a Patriot league-like school that happens to be in the Rockies.

While DU is well capitalized ($35 million sports budget) and sports are mostly national level competitors outside of basketball, the region is over-saturated with 8 pro teams, 4 larger football schools within an hours' drive of DU and a pretty small fanbase, most of whom didn't grow up cheering the Pioneers. Denver is a transient hodgepodge of people from all over the country and most of them keep their sports allegiances to the teams where they grew up.

While DU fans don't really identify with much of the Summit League, the fact that there are some hockey crossovers there with UND and Omaha are starting to help get the conference some traction here. It is better for us than our 15 years in the Sun Belt prior to 2012.

DU basketball had a couple of 20+win seasons about 7-8 years ago, but never quite managed to parlay that into NCAA appearances, and since then, it's been either mediocrity or worse. It's not a fabulous recruiting area for men's hoops here, so you have be able to attract overlooked players from other areas. The hoops budget is top of the league for the Summit, but it's not yet resourced for a larger conference. That said, if the Big East were ever interested in the Pioneers, DU would find more money, and might even subsidize opponent travel to Denver.
03-14-2020 08:11 PM
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-14-2020 08:11 PM)puck swami Wrote:  As a DU fan, we know that our private status, unique Eastern-style sports mix (without football) and location limits our conference options. We're kind of a Patriot league-like school that happens to be in the Rockies.

While DU is well capitalized ($35 million sports budget) and sports are mostly national level competitors outside of basketball, the region is over-saturated with 8 pro teams, 4 larger football schools within an hours' drive of DU and a pretty small fanbase, most of whom didn't grow up cheering the Pioneers. Denver is a transient hodgepodge of people from all over the country and most of them keep their sports allegiances to the teams where they grew up.

While DU fans don't really identify with much of the Summit League, the fact that there are some hockey crossovers there with UND and Omaha are starting to help get the conference some traction here. It is better for us than our 15 years in the Sun Belt prior to 2012.

DU basketball had a couple of 20+win seasons about 7-8 years ago, but never quite managed to parlay that into NCAA appearances, and since then, it's been either mediocrity or worse. It's not a fabulous recruiting area for men's hoops here, so you have be able to attract overlooked players from other areas. The hoops budget is top of the league for the Summit, but it's not yet resourced for a larger conference. That said, if the Big East were ever interested in the Pioneers, DU would find more money, and might even subsidize opponent travel to Denver.

That hockey overlap would have to be a big deal since hockey is basically DU's "football". We learned in pre-Sun Belt football days it was hell when your conference football schedule looks nothing like your conference hoops schedule. You are basically needing to generate awareness in your own fans of your opponents. When they overlap, a close controversial lose in one key sport gins up interest when you meet in another sport.

Sun Belt football has taken a lot of the starch out of AState vs UALR in in the Sun Belt because Red Wolf fans tend to have carry-over hates from football that make other games more important.

Denver only played four sports that featured league regular season schedules under the Sun Belt umbrella. The rest were just post-season events to crown a champion. Great for travel terrible for getting any mutual interest.

Pioneers leaving was mutually beneficial and I'm glad it has worked for DU.
03-18-2020 09:24 AM
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