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MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-09-2020 07:42 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Silly question - IF The Valley ventures west again, would Denver be an option? Private, good academics, strong in olympic sports (especially volleyball, tennis and men's soccer), located in a major market. Can't hurt to say hello.

If Denver simply had a pulse in men's basketball, it would be great target for multiple leagues, such as the WCC and MVC. For some reason, though, they haven't ever shown that pulse.
03-10-2020 08:04 AM
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-10-2020 08:04 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-09-2020 07:42 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Silly question - IF The Valley ventures west again, would Denver be an option? Private, good academics, strong in olympic sports (especially volleyball, tennis and men's soccer), located in a major market. Can't hurt to say hello.

If Denver simply had a pulse in men's basketball, it would be great target for multiple leagues, such as the WCC and MVC. For some reason, though, they haven't ever shown that pulse.

Denver might be a good addition regardless for those leagues. The Summit is an upper Midwest league with its 2 privates (Denver and Oral Roberts) outside of the base footprint. I’d say the WCC would be the better fit. If Denver were really good at basketball, like annually getting a bid. I’d wonder if the Big East would stretch that far.
03-10-2020 08:24 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-10-2020 08:24 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 08:04 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-09-2020 07:42 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Silly question - IF The Valley ventures west again, would Denver be an option? Private, good academics, strong in olympic sports (especially volleyball, tennis and men's soccer), located in a major market. Can't hurt to say hello.

If Denver simply had a pulse in men's basketball, it would be great target for multiple leagues, such as the WCC and MVC. For some reason, though, they haven't ever shown that pulse.

Denver might be a good addition regardless for those leagues. The Summit is an upper Midwest league with its 2 privates (Denver and Oral Roberts) outside of the base footprint. I’d say the WCC would be the better fit. If Denver were really good at basketball, like annually getting a bid. I’d wonder if the Big East would stretch that far.

They’re already doing business with Denver’s lacrosse. In that regard, they do pass that sight test.
03-10-2020 08:27 AM
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Bogg Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-10-2020 08:27 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 08:24 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 08:04 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-09-2020 07:42 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Silly question - IF The Valley ventures west again, would Denver be an option? Private, good academics, strong in olympic sports (especially volleyball, tennis and men's soccer), located in a major market. Can't hurt to say hello.

If Denver simply had a pulse in men's basketball, it would be great target for multiple leagues, such as the WCC and MVC. For some reason, though, they haven't ever shown that pulse.

Denver might be a good addition regardless for those leagues. The Summit is an upper Midwest league with its 2 privates (Denver and Oral Roberts) outside of the base footprint. I’d say the WCC would be the better fit. If Denver were really good at basketball, like annually getting a bid. I’d wonder if the Big East would stretch that far.

They’re already doing business with Denver’s lacrosse. In that regard, they do pass that sight test.

I don't mean this as a shot at Denver, but just based off of geography and the jump they'd have to make in basketball I'd imagine they'd be pretty far down the list for the Big East. They might be on the short list for next school up for the WCC, though I think we're a long ways away from Gonzaga letting that conference expand.
03-10-2020 09:04 AM
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BePcr07 Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-10-2020 09:04 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 08:27 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 08:24 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 08:04 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-09-2020 07:42 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Silly question - IF The Valley ventures west again, would Denver be an option? Private, good academics, strong in olympic sports (especially volleyball, tennis and men's soccer), located in a major market. Can't hurt to say hello.

If Denver simply had a pulse in men's basketball, it would be great target for multiple leagues, such as the WCC and MVC. For some reason, though, they haven't ever shown that pulse.

Denver might be a good addition regardless for those leagues. The Summit is an upper Midwest league with its 2 privates (Denver and Oral Roberts) outside of the base footprint. I’d say the WCC would be the better fit. If Denver were really good at basketball, like annually getting a bid. I’d wonder if the Big East would stretch that far.

They’re already doing business with Denver’s lacrosse. In that regard, they do pass that sight test.

I don't mean this as a shot at Denver, but just based off of geography and the jump they'd have to make in basketball I'd imagine they'd be pretty far down the list for the Big East. They might be on the short list for next school up for the WCC, though I think we're a long ways away from Gonzaga letting that conference expand.

Agreed, just curious what their options would be if their basketball was significantly better
03-10-2020 09:10 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-10-2020 09:04 AM)Bogg Wrote:  I don't mean this as a shot at Denver, but just based off of geography and the jump they'd have to make in basketball I'd imagine they'd be pretty far down the list for the Big East. They might be on the short list for next school up for the WCC, though I think we're a long ways away from Gonzaga letting that conference expand.

I don't disagree. Good or bad at hoops, they may as well be Gonzaga in terms of reach and practicality. But, whereas other schools don't have a working relationship with the conference and its schools, Denver's already there.

As for the WCC, I don't envy them with the way Gonzaga gave them an ultimatum. Expansion for them is going to be a tough and tricky road to cross. Institutions like the other WCC members resemble Denver and Seattle, but those two bring nothing for hoops, and don't improve the conference. Even Air Force, a different kind of acquisition, may not be something that would please Gonzaga's hoops needs.
03-10-2020 09:15 AM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
Denver is good at a sports other than basketball. In soccer. gymnastics, lax, skiing, etc they normally are a top program. Their basketball showed life late in the season.
03-10-2020 01:22 PM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-09-2020 07:42 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Silly question - IF The Valley ventures west again, would Denver be an option? Private, good academics, strong in olympic sports (especially volleyball, tennis and men's soccer), located in a major market. Can't hurt to say hello.

I don't think so. The Valley's priorities are keeping travel to a minimum and adding strong traveling fan bases that will come out to St. Louis in force. Denver adds neither.

If Belmont and Saint Louis aren't interested - the latter definitely isn't, or they would have been added last time - I'm not sure where they go if they want a private school. Maybe Detroit? They're not a great basketball program, though. Lipscomb is in the same metro as Belmont but is just okay in basketball. There isn't really a lot else in the footprint as far as private schools go, and stretching for a school like Oral Roberts doesn't strike me as the kind of move the MVC in its current form would make.
03-10-2020 02:21 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-10-2020 02:21 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(03-09-2020 07:42 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Silly question - IF The Valley ventures west again, would Denver be an option? Private, good academics, strong in olympic sports (especially volleyball, tennis and men's soccer), located in a major market. Can't hurt to say hello.

I don't think so. The Valley's priorities are keeping travel to a minimum and adding strong traveling fan bases that will come out to St. Louis in force. Denver adds neither.

If Belmont and Saint Louis aren't interested - the latter definitely isn't, or they would have been added last time - I'm not sure where they go if they want a private school. Maybe Detroit? They're not a great basketball program, though. Lipscomb is in the same metro as Belmont but is just okay in basketball. There isn't really a lot else in the footprint as far as private schools go, and stretching for a school like Oral Roberts doesn't strike me as the kind of move the MVC in its current form would make.

The Mabee Center is up for the task for handling large crowds, but, I don't think ORU does a good job filling it up.
03-10-2020 02:58 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
Some D2 schools are stronger in several sports than the ones in D1 that are privates.

Ashland in Ohio
Davenport in Michigan which is a school on the rise.
Bellarmine
Drury which I think Missouri State will block since they are in Springfield as well.
Lewis in Illinois
Indianapolis
McKendree in the Saint Louis market in Illinois.
Findlay in Ohio.
Tiffin in Ohio
Lincoln Memorial in Tennessee

Others in the footprint.
Detroit Mercy
Lindenwood
Maryville
SW Baptist
Rockhurst
Cedarville
Trevecca Nazarene
Newman
Upper Iowa
Concordia-Saint Paul

It depends where MVC would go to get another private. Bellarmine, Drury, and Lincoln Memorial are stronger in men's basketball that could boast MVC strength then Detroit Mercy, Oral Roberts, Denver and the likes. I would watch Wayne State in Michigan looking to join their peers in D1. They are a R1 in research just like Milwaukee. There are no other R1 schools in D2.
03-10-2020 06:38 PM
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Bogg Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-10-2020 01:22 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Denver is good at a sports other than basketball. In soccer. gymnastics, lax, skiing, etc they normally are a top program. Their basketball showed life late in the season.

Oh, sure. I get that Denver's basically made the decision to be a lacrosse and hockey school, and you know what? They're generally very good in both those sports, so fair enough. It's just that with geography already not in their favor basketball would have to be viewed as a significant asset to the Big East to compel an invite. Conversely, if the WCC ever feels the need to expand there aren't a lot of great prospects - it's pretty much Denver and Seattle as institutional fits. "Better than the bottom half of the WCC in a given year" is also a lower bar to clear than "irresistible to the Big East". The WCC should be the aspirational goal.

All that's even assuming upward basketball mobility is even a priority for Denver. The Summit has coalesced nicely into Conference Dakotas, giving it a fair degree of stability, and it actually has a fairly decent conference tournament for the level of play. If they're not interested in a basketball arms race, throwing your lot in with some primary state schools and Nebraska's (admittedly distant) #2 public isn't the worst position to be in.
03-10-2020 07:02 PM
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johnintx Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-10-2020 02:58 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  The Mabee Center is up for the task for handling large crowds, but, I don't think ORU does a good job filling it up.

The city of Tulsa has a long history with the MVC, through the University of Tulsa. But, there's a big difference between TU and ORU, even in Tulsa.

While Tulsa was in the MVC, Wichita State and Creighton were both in the conference. Now, Springfield, MO is the edge of the MVC footprint. The MVC isn't going to want to reach that far out of the footprint just for ORU.
03-10-2020 08:42 PM
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
Belmont does not have a significant fan base. Hosted Murray this year. Their small arena was 50-60% at best and some of that was Murray.
03-11-2020 01:44 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-10-2020 08:42 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 02:58 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  The Mabee Center is up for the task for handling large crowds, but, I don't think ORU does a good job filling it up.

The city of Tulsa has a long history with the MVC, through the University of Tulsa. But, there's a big difference between TU and ORU, even in Tulsa.

While Tulsa was in the MVC, Wichita State and Creighton were both in the conference. Now, Springfield, MO is the edge of the MVC footprint. The MVC isn't going to want to reach that far out of the footprint just for ORU.

I agree, but, didn't ORU get a visit? It might not be saying much (allegedly, UMKC got one too?).

More than likely, if it means finally scoring Murray State, the public members will let the private members have a "pick 'em" of any regional private school. If Belmont won't go, I don't see how it wouldn't be Detroit.
03-11-2020 07:34 AM
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 01:44 AM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  Belmont does not have a significant fan base. Hosted Murray this year. Their small arena was 50-60% at best and some of that was Murray.


The Curb Event Center is, indeed, smallish at about 5,000. But it's relatively new (opened in 2003) and very nice.

I would not phrase it as Belmont does not has a "significant" fan base but rather does not have a "large" fan base. However, many of its fans are wealthy, influential and or "celebrity-esque" (with the latter due to the music industry factor). As such, Belmont offers a somewhat unusual fan base that can be capitalized upon somewhat related to marketing.

I'm a BU homer, but I strongly feel Belmont would bring lots to the table (including its Nashville location) for the MVC. And I feel the university would be very interested in an invite if Murray is also extended a membership offer.

This is not the Belmont of 15 years ago. The university is "thinking big picture" more effectively now than it was then.
03-11-2020 08:15 AM
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-10-2020 08:24 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 08:04 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-09-2020 07:42 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Silly question - IF The Valley ventures west again, would Denver be an option? Private, good academics, strong in olympic sports (especially volleyball, tennis and men's soccer), located in a major market. Can't hurt to say hello.

If Denver simply had a pulse in men's basketball, it would be great target for multiple leagues, such as the WCC and MVC. For some reason, though, they haven't ever shown that pulse.

Denver might be a good addition regardless for those leagues. The Summit is an upper Midwest league with its 2 privates (Denver and Oral Roberts) outside of the base footprint. I’d say the WCC would be the better fit. If Denver were really good at basketball, like annually getting a bid. I’d wonder if the Big East would stretch that far.

Disagree, Denver has found a decent home for the time being. They are now in a conference with their biggest rival (UND), along with Omaha from their Hockey league. With the addition of St. Thomas who will bring Hockey with them to DI, along with the rumored interest of Minnesota State also looking at DI and the Summit, Denver could be in an all sports conference where 5 of the schools also have Hockey. This allows them to cross brand their revenue sport with the other Olympics. With that said, if they ever managed to bring their Basketball up to a consistent top 100 type program, they gone to the WCC.
03-11-2020 09:15 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-10-2020 07:02 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 01:22 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Denver is good at a sports other than basketball. In soccer. gymnastics, lax, skiing, etc they normally are a top program. Their basketball showed life late in the season.

Oh, sure. I get that Denver's basically made the decision to be a lacrosse and hockey school, and you know what? They're generally very good in both those sports, so fair enough. It's just that with geography already not in their favor basketball would have to be viewed as a significant asset to the Big East to compel an invite. Conversely, if the WCC ever feels the need to expand there aren't a lot of great prospects - it's pretty much Denver and Seattle as institutional fits. "Better than the bottom half of the WCC in a given year" is also a lower bar to clear than "irresistible to the Big East". The WCC should be the aspirational goal.

All that's even assuming upward basketball mobility is even a priority for Denver. The Summit has coalesced nicely into Conference Dakotas, giving it a fair degree of stability, and it actually has a fairly decent conference tournament for the level of play. If they're not interested in a basketball arms race, throwing your lot in with some primary state schools and Nebraska's (admittedly distant) #2 public isn't the worst position to be in.

Yeah, I think Denver fits in very well institutionally with the WCC. It's just that there still needs to be *some* sort of semblance of mere basketball aptitude (and I'm saying that as a "think like a university president" person regarding conference realignment). That's actually what's perplexing to me: the on-the-court basketball bar isn't very high for Denver to dramatically improve its conference membership because it's the type of institution that many university presidents would *love* in terms of academics and location, yet they can't meet that very low bar for whatever reason.

It's certainly not about money. Denver's endowment is over 3 times as much as any other school in the Summit League and they attract a very affluent student base. For example, more kids from New Trier High School (the inspiration for the John Hughes high school movies and "Mean Girls" along with being the Chicago area's equivalent of Greenwich or Beverly Hills) last year went to Denver than any Big Ten school besides perennial favorites Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana and Michigan:

https://newtriernews.org/destinations-2019/

So, Denver should have the money to compete in basketball on paper, although we know that money isn't necessarily everything (or else Tulane and Rice ought to be running roughshod over their conference peers athletically).

(On a side note, the class college matriculation list for New Trier is fascinating to me since it shows the college choices for a huge public high school where money is generally not an object. Out of a class of over 1000 kids, a grand total of *one* student is going to *any* of the in-state Illinois directional public universities, yet 18 kids are heading to UC-Boulder and another 12 are heading to Denver. Even when you take into account the wealth of that school, that's staggering compared to a decade ago.)
03-11-2020 09:30 AM
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 09:30 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  (On a side note, the class college matriculation list for New Trier is fascinating to me since it shows the college choices for a huge public high school where money is generally not an object. Out of a class of over 1000 kids, a grand total of *one* student is going to *any* of the in-state Illinois directional public universities, yet 18 kids are heading to UC-Boulder and another 12 are heading to Denver. Even when you take into account the wealth of that school, that's staggering compared to a decade ago.)

My first college roommate at Illinois was a New Trier Grad. Came in with enough AP Hours/College credits that he came in a few hours short of being a sophomore.

New Trier also tried to recruit my HS Math teacher - offering a pretty big bump in salary - but fortunately he wasn't interested in living in the Chicago area.
03-11-2020 11:20 AM
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
(03-11-2020 09:30 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 07:02 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 01:22 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Denver is good at a sports other than basketball. In soccer. gymnastics, lax, skiing, etc they normally are a top program. Their basketball showed life late in the season.

Oh, sure. I get that Denver's basically made the decision to be a lacrosse and hockey school, and you know what? They're generally very good in both those sports, so fair enough. It's just that with geography already not in their favor basketball would have to be viewed as a significant asset to the Big East to compel an invite. Conversely, if the WCC ever feels the need to expand there aren't a lot of great prospects - it's pretty much Denver and Seattle as institutional fits. "Better than the bottom half of the WCC in a given year" is also a lower bar to clear than "irresistible to the Big East". The WCC should be the aspirational goal.

All that's even assuming upward basketball mobility is even a priority for Denver. The Summit has coalesced nicely into Conference Dakotas, giving it a fair degree of stability, and it actually has a fairly decent conference tournament for the level of play. If they're not interested in a basketball arms race, throwing your lot in with some primary state schools and Nebraska's (admittedly distant) #2 public isn't the worst position to be in.

Yeah, I think Denver fits in very well institutionally with the WCC. It's just that there still needs to be *some* sort of semblance of mere basketball aptitude (and I'm saying that as a "think like a university president" person regarding conference realignment). That's actually what's perplexing to me: the on-the-court basketball bar isn't very high for Denver to dramatically improve its conference membership because it's the type of institution that many university presidents would *love* in terms of academics and location, yet they can't meet that very low bar for whatever reason.

It's certainly not about money. Denver's endowment is over 3 times as much as any other school in the Summit League and they attract a very affluent student base. For example, more kids from New Trier High School (the inspiration for the John Hughes high school movies and "Mean Girls" along with being the Chicago area's equivalent of Greenwich or Beverly Hills) last year went to Denver than any Big Ten school besides perennial favorites Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana and Michigan:

https://newtriernews.org/destinations-2019/

So, Denver should have the money to compete in basketball on paper, although we know that money isn't necessarily everything (or else Tulane and Rice ought to be running roughshod over their conference peers athletically).

(On a side note, the class college matriculation list for New Trier is fascinating to me since it shows the college choices for a huge public high school where money is generally not an object. Out of a class of over 1000 kids, a grand total of *one* student is going to *any* of the in-state Illinois directional public universities, yet 18 kids are heading to UC-Boulder and another 12 are heading to Denver. Even when you take into account the wealth of that school, that's staggering compared to a decade ago.)

Yea, the only conclusion I can really come to is that basketball/conference change just isn't a priority for Denver at this point. Nothing wrong with the Summit though - I'm firmly of the opinion that it's really "found itself" in the Northern Plains. In fact, if an MVC expansion leads to Western Illinois jumping ship for the Horizon or OVC then I say they triple down on their current center of gravity and grab all three of Minnesota State, St Cloud St, and Duluth.
03-11-2020 11:39 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: MVC Commissioner Uturns Stance — Now Considering Expansion to 12
I like what Summit is becoming institutionally. Weird as it may sound, I kind of think UW-M would make a good fit for it, same for UIC. I don't think Horizon is what people make it to be anymore.
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2020 11:57 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
03-11-2020 11:54 AM
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