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Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
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texoma Offline
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Post: #221
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 01:46 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 12:25 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(03-24-2020 11:31 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  Yeah I agree Big 12 teams will be included.

The question is which ones. I would be interested in your thoughts and rationals. I would also assume as an AAU school, a school close by, and a school with history Colorado would flip East.

Specific questions I would appreciate your thoughts that I’ve wondered.

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska?

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston?

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona?

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them?

What makes this different ( if it occurred) is this time it really is a marriage of equals. I think USC and Texas would be the prime movers. Other than AZ, the west is pretty simple. It’s the East that has issues and how do you execute the merger without the SEC and Big12 from blowing it up.

This discussion is valid. For college football to continue as a national sport (and to fund the biggest percentage of the rest of college athletics), there has to be a nationally relevant western conference. College football will always be more popular in the South and Midwest. There is a greater density of college football fans in those two regions. Yes, I'd prefer for my team to go east rather than west. But, the opportunity exists (with a few hoops to jump through) to create a new western conference. I do not know if it can generate the revenue needed to keep up with the SEC and B1G, but it could be an improvement over the current Pac-12 or B12. These questions have been raised regarding the formation of the "Airport" conference (working name after the airport meeting required to form it).

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska? It's worth it. I'm doubtful to whether Nebraska would consider it. They have gone through some pain to attain full membership in the B1G. They're not going to give that up unless mobs of Husker fans storm the campus demanding to play old Big 8 rivals.

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter. They're worth approaching with the opportunity to bring the old Big 8 gang together again. Yes, they are a fish out of water in the SEC. But, they like being there, are secure there, and would choose to stay.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might. Regarding Baylor, the combination of religious affiliation and scandal work against them. Tech would absolutely be included in this conference. TCU is secular enough to pass muster, is located in DFW, and is a faithful ally of UT..they're in. Oklahoma State, though not located in Texas, functions as a Texas school for these purposes.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston? The Houston market is important. UT has a good portion of it by themselves. There is institutional rivalry between UT and UH that can better be explained by posters from those schools. Let's just say that there are plenty that regard UH as Cougar High. I personally believe that an "Airport" conference needs to compete with the SEC (A&M/LSU) in Houston, and UH would help them do that.

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona? KU will have the freedom to leave K-State, but like Washington/Oregon/Arizona, they can't be the instigators. The "Airport" conference would be an option for them.

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them? If there was ever such thing as a strong second school in a small state, Iowa State is it. They are highly regarded academically, have a strong fan base and facilities, and are competitive on the field. The "Airport" conference would present its best opportunity to continue as a P school. I believe they would bring value to the "Airport" conference.

In my opinion, Colorado would present an issue. Yes, they would want to be part of this. But, they would rather travel west. They left the Big 12 for the Pac 12 so they could play in California, where their largest group of out-of-state alumni reside, and where they recruit large numbers of students. They would rather be in California than in Texas.

Interesting points and insights. I’m not sure from your commentary who your initial gang and preferred 8 would be. I agree Colorado might want to be west and might be satisfied with a 7-2 model which could give them a CA game every other year. But I think if you look at the schools in the west you almost have to send them to the east side.

Sactowndog, you asked my thoughts on the Bi2/PAC12 merger. My opinion is very much what johintx has said. The only thing I might add is that I do not believe TCU would be included in the group joining with the PAC schools. IIRC they still have connections with the Disciples of Christ with their ministry program, but more importantly they have very few fans outside of Tarrant county and IMO do not deliver the DFW market. Tech and OSU have gobs of alumns in DFW.

I think Kansas would be a much better choice along with OSU and Tech. Their academics and basketball are excellent. Also, when Larry Scott was working on the original Texhoma deal, I read that Scott was enamored with KU and had thoughts of including them in the deal.

Houston? I agree with all that johnintx said about the Houston market, but they have very few fans and I do not know that they would be of any benefit.

Hats off to johnintx for a very good analysis.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 07:27 PM by texoma.)
03-25-2020 03:32 PM
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Thiefery Offline
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Post: #222
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.
03-25-2020 08:24 PM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #223
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

Just like I don’t know the Midwest schools, I can tell you that USC is highly unlikely to leave Cal and Stanford nor would they join a conference with the Academic profile of the Big 12.

As far as Oklahoma, I’m pretty sure they are aware Utah was recently awarded AAU membership and that might me way more likely for them if they were in a conference with 12-13 other AAU schools.
03-25-2020 08:41 PM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #224
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and bests
(03-25-2020 03:32 PM)texoma Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 01:46 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 12:25 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(03-24-2020 11:31 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  Yeah I agree Big 12 teams will be included.

The question is which ones. I would be interested in your thoughts and rationals. I would also assume as an AAU school, a school close by, and a school with history Colorado would flip East.

Specific questions I would appreciate your thoughts that I’ve wondered.

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska?

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston?

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona?

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them?

What makes this different ( if it occurred) is this time it really is a marriage of equals. I think USC and Texas would be the prime movers. Other than AZ, the west is pretty simple. It’s the East that has issues and how do you execute the merger without the SEC and Big12 from blowing it up.

This discussion is valid. For college football to continue as a national sport (and to fund the biggest percentage of the rest of college athletics), there has to be a nationally relevant western conference. College football will always be more popular in the South and Midwest. There is a greater density of college football fans in those two regions. Yes, I'd prefer for my team to go east rather than west. But, the opportunity exists (with a few hoops to jump through) to create a new western conference. I do not know if it can generate the revenue needed to keep up with the SEC and B1G, but it could be an improvement over the current Pac-12 or B12. These questions have been raised regarding the formation of the "Airport" conference (working name after the airport meeting required to form it).

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska? It's worth it. I'm doubtful to whether Nebraska would consider it. They have gone through some pain to attain full membership in the B1G. They're not going to give that up unless mobs of Husker fans storm the campus demanding to play old Big 8 rivals.

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter. They're worth approaching with the opportunity to bring the old Big 8 gang together again. Yes, they are a fish out of water in the SEC. But, they like being there, are secure there, and would choose to stay.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might. Regarding Baylor, the combination of religious affiliation and scandal work against them. Tech would absolutely be included in this conference. TCU is secular enough to pass muster, is located in DFW, and is a faithful ally of UT..they're in. Oklahoma State, though not located in Texas, functions as a Texas school for these purposes.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston? The Houston market is important. UT has a good portion of it by themselves. There is institutional rivalry between UT and UH that can better be explained by posters from those schools. Let's just say that there are plenty that regard UH as Cougar High. I personally believe that an "Airport" conference needs to compete with the SEC (A&M/LSU) in Houston, and UH would help them do that.

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona? KU will have the freedom to leave K-State, but like Washington/Oregon/Arizona, they can't be the instigators. The "Airport" conference would be an option for them.

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them? If there was ever such thing as a strong second school in a small state, Iowa State is it. They are highly regarded academically, have a strong fan base and facilities, and are competitive on the field. The "Airport" conference would present its best opportunity to continue as a P school. I believe they would bring value to the "Airport" conference.

In my opinion, Colorado would present an issue. Yes, they would want to be part of this. But, they would rather travel west. They left the Big 12 for the Pac 12 so they could play in California, where their largest group of out-of-state alumni reside, and where they recruit large numbers of students. They would rather be in California than in Texas.

Interesting points and insights. I’m not sure from your commentary who your initial gang and preferred 8 would be. I agree Colorado might want to be west and might be satisfied with a 7-2 model which could give them a CA game every other year. But I think if you look at the schools in the west you almost have to send them to the east side.

Sactowndog, you asked my thoughts on the Bi2/PAC12 merger. My opinion is very much what johintx has said. The only thing I might add is that I do not believe TCU would be included in the group joining with the PAC schools. IIRC they still have connections with the Disciples of Christ with their ministry program, but more importantly they have very few fans outside of Tarrant county and IMO do not deliver the DFW market. Tech and OSU have gobs of alumns in DFW.

I think Kansas would be a much better choice along with OSU and Tech. Their academics and basketball are excellent. Also, when Larry Scott was working on the original Texhoma deal, I read that Scott was enamored with KU and had thoughts of including them in the deal.

Houston? I agree with all that johnintx said about the Houston market, but they have very few fans and I do not know that they would be of any benefit.

Hats off to johnintx for a very good analysis.

So let’s assume Nebraska and Missouri say no:

I’m I right in saying your Eastern eight would be:

Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas, Colorado, Iowa State, Houston. With Iowa State and Houston only added once Nebraska and Missouri said no?

While I think TCU would be accepted and it’s academics are much better than OK State it does make your initial Airport meeting group much easier as both Oklahoma and OK State could be there.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 08:52 PM by Sactowndog.)
03-25-2020 08:47 PM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #225
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 08:47 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 03:32 PM)texoma Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 01:46 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 12:25 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(03-24-2020 11:31 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  Yeah I agree Big 12 teams will be included.

The question is which ones. I would be interested in your thoughts and rationals. I would also assume as an AAU school, a school close by, and a school with history Colorado would flip East.

Specific questions I would appreciate your thoughts that I’ve wondered.

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska?

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston?

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona?

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them?

What makes this different ( if it occurred) is this time it really is a marriage of equals. I think USC and Texas would be the prime movers. Other than AZ, the west is pretty simple. It’s the East that has issues and how do you execute the merger without the SEC and Big12 from blowing it up.

This discussion is valid. For college football to continue as a national sport (and to fund the biggest percentage of the rest of college athletics), there has to be a nationally relevant western conference. College football will always be more popular in the South and Midwest. There is a greater density of college football fans in those two regions. Yes, I'd prefer for my team to go east rather than west. But, the opportunity exists (with a few hoops to jump through) to create a new western conference. I do not know if it can generate the revenue needed to keep up with the SEC and B1G, but it could be an improvement over the current Pac-12 or B12. These questions have been raised regarding the formation of the "Airport" conference (working name after the airport meeting required to form it).

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska? It's worth it. I'm doubtful to whether Nebraska would consider it. They have gone through some pain to attain full membership in the B1G. They're not going to give that up unless mobs of Husker fans storm the campus demanding to play old Big 8 rivals.

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter. They're worth approaching with the opportunity to bring the old Big 8 gang together again. Yes, they are a fish out of water in the SEC. But, they like being there, are secure there, and would choose to stay.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might. Regarding Baylor, the combination of religious affiliation and scandal work against them. Tech would absolutely be included in this conference. TCU is secular enough to pass muster, is located in DFW, and is a faithful ally of UT..they're in. Oklahoma State, though not located in Texas, functions as a Texas school for these purposes.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston? The Houston market is important. UT has a good portion of it by themselves. There is institutional rivalry between UT and UH that can better be explained by posters from those schools. Let's just say that there are plenty that regard UH as Cougar High. I personally believe that an "Airport" conference needs to compete with the SEC (A&M/LSU) in Houston, and UH would help them do that.

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona? KU will have the freedom to leave K-State, but like Washington/Oregon/Arizona, they can't be the instigators. The "Airport" conference would be an option for them.

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them? If there was ever such thing as a strong second school in a small state, Iowa State is it. They are highly regarded academically, have a strong fan base and facilities, and are competitive on the field. The "Airport" conference would present its best opportunity to continue as a P school. I believe they would bring value to the "Airport" conference.

In my opinion, Colorado would present an issue. Yes, they would want to be part of this. But, they would rather travel west. They left the Big 12 for the Pac 12 so they could play in California, where their largest group of out-of-state alumni reside, and where they recruit large numbers of students. They would rather be in California than in Texas.

Interesting points and insights. I’m not sure from your commentary who your initial gang and preferred 8 would be. I agree Colorado might want to be west and might be satisfied with a 7-2 model which could give them a CA game every other year. But I think if you look at the schools in the west you almost have to send them to the east side.

Sactowndog, you asked my thoughts on the Bi2/PAC12 merger. My opinion is very much what johintx has said. The only thing I might add is that I do not believe TCU would be included in the group joining with the PAC schools. IIRC they still have connections with the Disciples of Christ with their ministry program, but more importantly they have very few fans outside of Tarrant county and IMO do not deliver the DFW market. Tech and OSU have gobs of alumns in DFW.

I think Kansas would be a much better choice along with OSU and Tech. Their academics and basketball are excellent. Also, when Larry Scott was working on the original Texhoma deal, I read that Scott was enamored with KU and had thoughts of including them in the deal.

Houston? I agree with all that johnintx said about the Houston market, but they have very few fans and I do not know that they would be of any benefit.

Hats off to johnintx for a very good analysis.

I think the academic snobs of the PAC would dream of:
Colorado, Texas, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa State, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Texas Tech

But they are going to have to make some compromises.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 09:23 PM by Sactowndog.)
03-25-2020 08:56 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #226
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 09:00 PM by JRsec.)
03-25-2020 08:57 PM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #227
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

Leave it to the SEC guy to leave out Academics...
03-25-2020 09:25 PM
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Post: #228
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 02:33 PM)Big Frog II Wrote:  I can see the Pac 12 getting split between the Big 10 and the Big 12.

I don't understand this. I could see the Big XII being bifurcated by the B1G and PAC 12.
03-25-2020 09:33 PM
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RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

As far as valuations goes, those are based off of Gross Revenue which is highly impacted by Television dollars. A California/Texas based conference will generate plenty of television revenue and flip the script on many of those valuation numbers.

As far as Content Multipliers: USC, UCLA, Oklahoma, Texas and Washington all fit the bill.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 09:38 PM by Sactowndog.)
03-25-2020 09:34 PM
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RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
Modern literature states you’ll have Pacific Coast property in Reno in due time. 07-coffee3
03-25-2020 09:39 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 09:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

Leave it to the SEC guy to leave out Academics...

Every SEC school is a Carnegie R1 institution. By mandate of the Reconstruction Constitutions most schools in the South had divided disciplines. I think the idea at the time was keep the leaders from different fields from associating, which is what helped build the Confederate leadership at schools that were established prior to Civil War. Of course the U.S. Military Academy was probably the deepest in such associations, but that's beside the point.

So Medicine and Law were the focus of one state school and Agriculture and Engineering at the other. Some states later rewrote their constitutions and got out from under some of that onus and others did not.

But with population moving South the trajectory for the SEC schools is bright. Alabama and Georgia have Medicine now taught at facilities not located at the campus sites. That hurts as well.

But tell me does Fresno State have an R1 rating?

I let your ignorance on this topic pass the first time I read it, but unless you went to Cal, or UW, or Stanford I don't think you have any room to talk. I did my Master's work at Emory.

When the SEC formed out of the old Southern Conference it was for Sports. The focus of the Conference was not Academics per se.

In fact I'd say we are headed for dichotomous purposes with regards to conferences. If a school is AAU like A&M, Mizzou, Florida, and Vanderbilt they have no problem having and forming academic alliances with other AAU schools. Why do they need their conference to do that for them? Conferences for the most part are regional sports associations.

Do you think the PAC has been hurt athletically by not having associations with better sports brands? Might the Big 10 have found better competition if not so bound to the academic associations than the additions of Rutgers and Maryland? Did the ACC learn a valuable lesson when they took what they felt was an academic outlier in Louisville, a school that has raised their football and basketball value to heights higher than they had with AAU Maryland?

So the SEC's 14 schools are all at least Carnegie R1 now. Our research money is growing, and intentionally so, but the requirements for AAU membership have guidelines which were contrary to the state constitutions that many Southern schools operated under through the 60's (so literally for 100 years). We may be late to the party, but I have a feeling we'll be fine in the years ahead.

BTW it was easier for private schools in the South to organize their disciplines so that's why Tulane, Vanderbilt, Emory, Duke, and other such privates rate so highly academically. They of course could afford to be more selective of their students, but also were free of the restraints that were placed upon state schools.
03-25-2020 11:34 PM
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Thiefery Offline
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Post: #232
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
Wait is the AAU helping the schools in the current Pac 12 financially on the academic side? Because I thought that those schools were barely breaking even. I don't know much about the academic fraternity but Nebraska joined with the Rust Belt as an AAU member and then lost it's membership.

The idea that the AAU is a conference fraternity is a joke, they should be a nation wide one.

Texas is an AAU school, yet the academic side still gets a huge chunk of the athletic revenue. But who knew that they were hurting themselves aligning with sooo many non AAU schools?
03-26-2020 08:02 AM
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Post: #233
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 11:34 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 09:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

Leave it to the SEC guy to leave out Academics...

Every SEC school is a Carnegie R1 institution. By mandate of the Reconstruction Constitutions most schools in the South had divided disciplines. I think the idea at the time was keep the leaders from different fields from associating, which is what helped build the Confederate leadership at schools that were established prior to Civil War. Of course the U.S. Military Academy was probably the deepest in such associations, but that's beside the point.

So Medicine and Law were the focus of one state school and Agriculture and Engineering at the other. Some states later rewrote their constitutions and got out from under some of that onus and others did not.

But with population moving South the trajectory for the SEC schools is bright. Alabama and Georgia have Medicine now taught at facilities not located at the campus sites. That hurts as well.

But tell me does Fresno State have an R1 rating?

I let your ignorance on this topic pass the first time I read it, but unless you went to Cal, or UW, or Stanford I don't think you have any room to talk. I did my Master's work at Emory.

When the SEC formed out of the old Southern Conference it was for Sports. The focus of the Conference was not Academics per se.

In fact I'd say we are headed for dichotomous purposes with regards to conferences. If a school is AAU like A&M, Mizzou, Florida, and Vanderbilt they have no problem having and forming academic alliances with other AAU schools. Why do they need their conference to do that for them? Conferences for the most part are regional sports associations.

Do you think the PAC has been hurt athletically by not having associations with better sports brands? Might the Big 10 have found better competition if not so bound to the academic associations than the additions of Rutgers and Maryland? Did the ACC learn a valuable lesson when they took what they felt was an academic outlier in Louisville, a school that has raised their football and basketball value to heights higher than they had with AAU Maryland?

So the SEC's 14 schools are all at least Carnegie R1 now. Our research money is growing, and intentionally so, but the requirements for AAU membership have guidelines which were contrary to the state constitutions that many Southern schools operated under through the 60's (so literally for 100 years). We may be late to the party, but I have a feeling we'll be fine in the years ahead.

BTW it was easier for private schools in the South to organize their disciplines so that's why Tulane, Vanderbilt, Emory, Duke, and other such privates rate so highly academically. They of course could afford to be more selective of their students, but also were free of the restraints that were placed upon state schools.

For the record I went to Pomona College.

I was not denigrating Southern Schools and find your history lesson interesting. What I did say was leave it to you to leave Academics out of your analysis. It is an incomplete picture without that factor and one which today does not favor the SEC.

In 2019, the AAU offered three new invitations. Those went to Dartmouth, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Utah. Oklahoma can read the tea leaves.
03-26-2020 09:25 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #234
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 09:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  In 2019, the AAU offered three new invitations. Those went to Dartmouth, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Utah. Oklahoma can read the tea leaves.

SEC fans don't "read" tea leaves... they run hot water through them and pour it over ice to make iced tea!
07-coffee3

As to your previous comments: I agree that academics will be a factor - they always have been. That said, neither the Pac-12 nor the Big XII is strong enough to swallow the other... but a brokered merger could work, IF there's any desire to do so.
03-26-2020 09:36 AM
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Post: #235
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 08:02 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  Wait is the AAU helping the schools in the current Pac 12 financially on the academic side? Because I thought that those schools were barely breaking even. I don't know much about the academic fraternity but Nebraska joined with the Rust Belt as an AAU member and then lost it's membership.

The idea that the AAU is a conference fraternity is a joke, they should be a nation wide one.

Texas is an AAU school, yet the academic side still gets a huge chunk of the athletic revenue. But who knew that they were hurting themselves aligning with sooo many non AAU schools?

And of course, Texas has no agriculture. That's why A&M has higher research dollars. The Texas medical school just opened 2 or 3 years ago, yet Texas was still one of the highest rated institutions on research (and UT Southwestern Medical school, UT Houston Medical School, UT San Antonio Medical School, UT Medical Branch and UT MD Anderson Cancer Center are all highly ranked in research as well).
03-26-2020 09:43 AM
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Post: #236
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 09:36 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 09:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  In 2019, the AAU offered three new invitations. Those went to Dartmouth, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Utah. Oklahoma can read the tea leaves.

SEC fans don't "read" tea leaves... they run hot water through them and pour it over ice to make iced tea!
07-coffee3

As to your previous comments: I agree that academics will be a factor - they always have been. That said, neither the Pac-12 nor the Big XII is strong enough to swallow the other... but a brokered merger could work, IF there's any desire to do so.

And then they ruin the ice tea with sugar.04-cheers
03-26-2020 09:44 AM
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Post: #237
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 09:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 11:34 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 09:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

Leave it to the SEC guy to leave out Academics...

Every SEC school is a Carnegie R1 institution. By mandate of the Reconstruction Constitutions most schools in the South had divided disciplines. I think the idea at the time was keep the leaders from different fields from associating, which is what helped build the Confederate leadership at schools that were established prior to Civil War. Of course the U.S. Military Academy was probably the deepest in such associations, but that's beside the point.

So Medicine and Law were the focus of one state school and Agriculture and Engineering at the other. Some states later rewrote their constitutions and got out from under some of that onus and others did not.

But with population moving South the trajectory for the SEC schools is bright. Alabama and Georgia have Medicine now taught at facilities not located at the campus sites. That hurts as well.

But tell me does Fresno State have an R1 rating?

I let your ignorance on this topic pass the first time I read it, but unless you went to Cal, or UW, or Stanford I don't think you have any room to talk. I did my Master's work at Emory.

When the SEC formed out of the old Southern Conference it was for Sports. The focus of the Conference was not Academics per se.

In fact I'd say we are headed for dichotomous purposes with regards to conferences. If a school is AAU like A&M, Mizzou, Florida, and Vanderbilt they have no problem having and forming academic alliances with other AAU schools. Why do they need their conference to do that for them? Conferences for the most part are regional sports associations.

Do you think the PAC has been hurt athletically by not having associations with better sports brands? Might the Big 10 have found better competition if not so bound to the academic associations than the additions of Rutgers and Maryland? Did the ACC learn a valuable lesson when they took what they felt was an academic outlier in Louisville, a school that has raised their football and basketball value to heights higher than they had with AAU Maryland?

So the SEC's 14 schools are all at least Carnegie R1 now. Our research money is growing, and intentionally so, but the requirements for AAU membership have guidelines which were contrary to the state constitutions that many Southern schools operated under through the 60's (so literally for 100 years). We may be late to the party, but I have a feeling we'll be fine in the years ahead.

BTW it was easier for private schools in the South to organize their disciplines so that's why Tulane, Vanderbilt, Emory, Duke, and other such privates rate so highly academically. They of course could afford to be more selective of their students, but also were free of the restraints that were placed upon state schools.

For the record I went to Pomona College.

I was not denigrating Southern Schools and find your history lesson interesting. What I did say was leave it to you to leave Academics out of your analysis. It is an incomplete picture without that factor and one which today does not favor the SEC.

In 2019, the AAU offered three new invitations. Those went to Dartmouth, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Utah. Oklahoma can read the tea leaves.

And you miss my point. For the SEC profitability is the most important factor in realignment. Academics are a consideration but the baseline for that has now become an R1 Carnegie ranking. So how many top schools for realignment fail to achieve that status? Certainly no school the SEC would consider.

Therefore it isn't much of a factor. And what many schools are discovering is that making it a major consideration is an unnecessary and self limiting consideration for them. The Big 10 has made a nod in that direction by taking Nebraska, offering Notre Dame, and now considering Oklahoma.

The ACC acknowledged it when they took Louisville. The PAC has had a strong academic profile but Utah's admission improved your ratio.

There is but one issue before us. Academicians need to get their heads out of the past and into the present because the dichotomy between sports and academics has never been greater than it is now and thinking of the University as having one holistic mission is as alien to 2020 as nuclear energy was to the 1860's. And in this antiquated way of thinking the schools the academicians serve are hobbled by their inability to acknowledge the two separate and distinct career paths of top athletes and top students.

The "SEC" guy stuff is just a needless cheap shot in a more profound argument between what was and what is. And if you don't believe this issue matters just wait for more court rulings. There are two wholly distinct groups of students on almost every D1 campus and they with limited exceptions are mutually exclusive subsets of the student body, Academic students and student Athletes. Every school would be better off acknowledging those two groups formally and celebrating their distinctions and governing them separately.
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2020 12:59 PM by JRsec.)
03-26-2020 12:53 PM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #238
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 12:53 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 09:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 11:34 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 09:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

Leave it to the SEC guy to leave out Academics...

Every SEC school is a Carnegie R1 institution. By mandate of the Reconstruction Constitutions most schools in the South had divided disciplines. I think the idea at the time was keep the leaders from different fields from associating, which is what helped build the Confederate leadership at schools that were established prior to Civil War. Of course the U.S. Military Academy was probably the deepest in such associations, but that's beside the point.

So Medicine and Law were the focus of one state school and Agriculture and Engineering at the other. Some states later rewrote their constitutions and got out from under some of that onus and others did not.

But with population moving South the trajectory for the SEC schools is bright. Alabama and Georgia have Medicine now taught at facilities not located at the campus sites. That hurts as well.

But tell me does Fresno State have an R1 rating?

I let your ignorance on this topic pass the first time I read it, but unless you went to Cal, or UW, or Stanford I don't think you have any room to talk. I did my Master's work at Emory.

When the SEC formed out of the old Southern Conference it was for Sports. The focus of the Conference was not Academics per se.

In fact I'd say we are headed for dichotomous purposes with regards to conferences. If a school is AAU like A&M, Mizzou, Florida, and Vanderbilt they have no problem having and forming academic alliances with other AAU schools. Why do they need their conference to do that for them? Conferences for the most part are regional sports associations.

Do you think the PAC has been hurt athletically by not having associations with better sports brands? Might the Big 10 have found better competition if not so bound to the academic associations than the additions of Rutgers and Maryland? Did the ACC learn a valuable lesson when they took what they felt was an academic outlier in Louisville, a school that has raised their football and basketball value to heights higher than they had with AAU Maryland?

So the SEC's 14 schools are all at least Carnegie R1 now. Our research money is growing, and intentionally so, but the requirements for AAU membership have guidelines which were contrary to the state constitutions that many Southern schools operated under through the 60's (so literally for 100 years). We may be late to the party, but I have a feeling we'll be fine in the years ahead.

BTW it was easier for private schools in the South to organize their disciplines so that's why Tulane, Vanderbilt, Emory, Duke, and other such privates rate so highly academically. They of course could afford to be more selective of their students, but also were free of the restraints that were placed upon state schools.

For the record I went to Pomona College.

I was not denigrating Southern Schools and find your history lesson interesting. What I did say was leave it to you to leave Academics out of your analysis. It is an incomplete picture without that factor and one which today does not favor the SEC.

In 2019, the AAU offered three new invitations. Those went to Dartmouth, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Utah. Oklahoma can read the tea leaves.

And you miss my point. For the SEC profitability is the most important factor in realignment. Academics are a consideration but the baseline for that has now become an R1 Carnegie ranking. So how many top schools for realignment fail to achieve that status? Certainly no school the SEC would consider.

Therefore it isn't much of a factor. And what many schools are discovering is that making it a major consideration is an unnecessary and self limiting consideration for them. The Big 10 has made a nod in that direction by taking Nebraska, offering Notre Dame, and now considering Oklahoma.

The ACC acknowledged it when they took Louisville. The PAC has had a strong academic profile but Utah's admission improved your ratio.

There is but one issue before us. Academicians need to get their heads out of the past and into the present because the dichotomy between sports and academics has never been greater than it is now and thinking of the University as having one holistic mission is as alien to 2020 as nuclear energy was to the 1860's. And in this antiquated way of thinking the schools the academicians serve are hobbled by their inability to acknowledge the two separate and distinct career paths of top athletes and top students.

The "SEC" guy stuff is just a needless cheap shot in a more profound argument between what was and what is. And if you don't believe this issue matters just wait for more court rulings. There are two wholly distinct groups of students on almost every D1 campus and they with limited exceptions are mutually exclusive subsets of the student body, Academic students and student Athletes. Every school would be better off acknowledging those two groups formally and celebrating their distinctions and governing them separately.

I disagree it’s separate but not worth the debate. As far as revenue/profitability to the school, research grants dwarf athletic revenue at top research institutions and those tend to be all AAU schools.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

As for the cheap shot, you left out Academics when comparing leagues which clearly favors the SEC. Not sure why you don’t think it’s appropriate to call you out on it?
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2020 01:11 PM by Sactowndog.)
03-26-2020 01:09 PM
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Thiefery Offline
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Post: #239
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 09:43 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 08:02 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  Wait is the AAU helping the schools in the current Pac 12 financially on the academic side? Because I thought that those schools were barely breaking even. I don't know much about the academic fraternity but Nebraska joined with the Rust Belt as an AAU member and then lost it's membership.

The idea that the AAU is a conference fraternity is a joke, they should be a nation wide one.

Texas is an AAU school, yet the academic side still gets a huge chunk of the athletic revenue. But who knew that they were hurting themselves aligning with sooo many non AAU schools?

And of course, Texas has no agriculture. That's why A&M has higher research dollars. The Texas medical school just opened 2 or 3 years ago, yet Texas was still one of the highest rated institutions on research (and UT Southwestern Medical school, UT Houston Medical School, UT San Antonio Medical School, UT Medical Branch and UT MD Anderson Cancer Center are all highly ranked in research as well).

aggy research money still pales in comparison to Texas research.. In fact aggy is becoming a diploma mill with it's high acceptance rate and still is asking the state for more money. Texas doesn't. I also think Texas is assisting Tech with the agriculture because they are now increasing in numbers as well. I am planning to move back home (Austin) from where I have been residing for the past 15 years (VA). My daughter wants to be a vet and has been looking at schools. Aggy of course, comes up however Tech is also high on the list. She can pick whichever school she wants but I really hope it isn't in college station.(Still hold out hope she wants to do something else and instead attend UT)
03-26-2020 01:34 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #240
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 01:09 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 12:53 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 09:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 11:34 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 09:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  Leave it to the SEC guy to leave out Academics...

Every SEC school is a Carnegie R1 institution. By mandate of the Reconstruction Constitutions most schools in the South had divided disciplines. I think the idea at the time was keep the leaders from different fields from associating, which is what helped build the Confederate leadership at schools that were established prior to Civil War. Of course the U.S. Military Academy was probably the deepest in such associations, but that's beside the point.

So Medicine and Law were the focus of one state school and Agriculture and Engineering at the other. Some states later rewrote their constitutions and got out from under some of that onus and others did not.

But with population moving South the trajectory for the SEC schools is bright. Alabama and Georgia have Medicine now taught at facilities not located at the campus sites. That hurts as well.

But tell me does Fresno State have an R1 rating?

I let your ignorance on this topic pass the first time I read it, but unless you went to Cal, or UW, or Stanford I don't think you have any room to talk. I did my Master's work at Emory.

When the SEC formed out of the old Southern Conference it was for Sports. The focus of the Conference was not Academics per se.

In fact I'd say we are headed for dichotomous purposes with regards to conferences. If a school is AAU like A&M, Mizzou, Florida, and Vanderbilt they have no problem having and forming academic alliances with other AAU schools. Why do they need their conference to do that for them? Conferences for the most part are regional sports associations.

Do you think the PAC has been hurt athletically by not having associations with better sports brands? Might the Big 10 have found better competition if not so bound to the academic associations than the additions of Rutgers and Maryland? Did the ACC learn a valuable lesson when they took what they felt was an academic outlier in Louisville, a school that has raised their football and basketball value to heights higher than they had with AAU Maryland?

So the SEC's 14 schools are all at least Carnegie R1 now. Our research money is growing, and intentionally so, but the requirements for AAU membership have guidelines which were contrary to the state constitutions that many Southern schools operated under through the 60's (so literally for 100 years). We may be late to the party, but I have a feeling we'll be fine in the years ahead.

BTW it was easier for private schools in the South to organize their disciplines so that's why Tulane, Vanderbilt, Emory, Duke, and other such privates rate so highly academically. They of course could afford to be more selective of their students, but also were free of the restraints that were placed upon state schools.

For the record I went to Pomona College.

I was not denigrating Southern Schools and find your history lesson interesting. What I did say was leave it to you to leave Academics out of your analysis. It is an incomplete picture without that factor and one which today does not favor the SEC.

In 2019, the AAU offered three new invitations. Those went to Dartmouth, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Utah. Oklahoma can read the tea leaves.

And you miss my point. For the SEC profitability is the most important factor in realignment. Academics are a consideration but the baseline for that has now become an R1 Carnegie ranking. So how many top schools for realignment fail to achieve that status? Certainly no school the SEC would consider.

Therefore it isn't much of a factor. And what many schools are discovering is that making it a major consideration is an unnecessary and self limiting consideration for them. The Big 10 has made a nod in that direction by taking Nebraska, offering Notre Dame, and now considering Oklahoma.

The ACC acknowledged it when they took Louisville. The PAC has had a strong academic profile but Utah's admission improved your ratio.

There is but one issue before us. Academicians need to get their heads out of the past and into the present because the dichotomy between sports and academics has never been greater than it is now and thinking of the University as having one holistic mission is as alien to 2020 as nuclear energy was to the 1860's. And in this antiquated way of thinking the schools the academicians serve are hobbled by their inability to acknowledge the two separate and distinct career paths of top athletes and top students.

The "SEC" guy stuff is just a needless cheap shot in a more profound argument between what was and what is. And if you don't believe this issue matters just wait for more court rulings. There are two wholly distinct groups of students on almost every D1 campus and they with limited exceptions are mutually exclusive subsets of the student body, Academic students and student Athletes. Every school would be better off acknowledging those two groups formally and celebrating their distinctions and governing them separately.

I disagree it’s separate but not worth the debate. As far as revenue/profitability to the school, research grants dwarf athletic revenue at top research institutions and those tend to be all AAU schools.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

As for the cheap shot, you left out Academics when comparing leagues which clearly favors the SEC. Not sure why you don’t think it’s appropriate to call you out on it?

Then carefully explain to me how and why research grants should limit athletic revenue and how athletic prowess hurts research grants? There is no correlation whatsoever. And research is not even tied to undergraduate studies.

The distinction you are trying to make is wholly irrelevant to the grant process.

It was a cheap shot and it goes back to other posts of yours where I wasn't yet involved in the discussion where you took the same cheap shots. You want to crayfish your way out of that too?

Yours is a wholly baseless and asinine argument for the reasons I've stated. Research grants and AAU status are wholly independent from athletics and for the most part unrelated to undergraduate studies.

My point is that they are tacitly separate and have been for quite sometime, especially at schools where the athletic departments are separately governed under the university umbrella. The point I'm making is that the practice of separating athletics from academics is already being practiced by the Big 10 and ACC informally as witnessed by some of their conference's recent additions.

What are conferences but athletic associations. That was their organizing principle and academic elites have always had associations through organizations like AAU. Is Texas limited in sharing research with a Big 10 school? No. Auburn shared research grants with Purdue over Aero-space research.

We are living under an antiquated construct and misunderstanding its mission in the process. Athletics in 1890 were seen as team building exercise and a character test for students. Shortly after that it became about winning and with the winning came student ringers to play sports, and after that came the All-American teams, the rise of professional sports, and with it a new career path. The NCAA grew to enforce recruiting rules and govern an athletic blossoming that had few controls upon it. Minimum standards were approved to maintain the façade of student athletics and sanctions were employed to try to curtail pay for play. It all failed. But, it failed in a highly profitable way so it remained.

My point is that whether acknowledged or not we have two separate and distinct groups on every campus and the are on different career tracks but both are profitable. Would it not be healthier, more truthful, and more legitimate to acknowledge both and maximize the value of both rather than to continue to deny that Universities are no longer holistic places of learning where the development of the body is part of the development of the mind and acknowledge that while that principle is still true that some athletes specialize in athletics and hope to improve their minds through study and some students specialize in academics and hope to improve their bodies through intramural athletics.

Not all students become top researchers or professors or even career academics. Not all athletes becomes professional stars either. But if we treat the two groups with some degree of specialization hopefully all will leave the schools with job skills peculiar to their life track.

Since many athletes are poor scholarship is their only path to betterment and career opportunities. Some pay for play should be as permissible as work study.

But the glorification of athletic conferences as some kind of academic club is just stupid. AAU should be the club they seek to be a part of and athletics should be regional associations for that purpose only.

I didn't defend the SEC or raise academics (and you still aren't grasping this) because it is not an essential component of conference membership. Regionality and cultural fit are more important and if you knew about the breakup of the Southern Conference that led to the formation of the ACC and SEC you would understand this. Instead you choose to make an argument based on stereotypes and think that my lack of emphasis upon academics is somehow a tell when in reality it is a non factor. Yes the SEC would like more AAU schools but they want AAU schools that add value to the bottom line of athletics which is the business of the conference. Vanderbilt, Florida, A&M, and Missouri aren't limited in their academic associations. Neither is Texas or Kansas.

And as State and Federal budgets are stretched further and grant money becomes tighter, which it is doing, athletic revenue will be one revenue stream that can and should be enhanced.

But like any academic who only knows academia the concept of maximizing the value of both athletics and academics is a concept their non business minds can't grasp.

Editorial note for previous posts and speculation: Missouri was invited to the SEC at the recommendation of a network but only after the initial target to be paired with A&M wanted to bring their second state school with them. The SEC was only expanding by 2 and both had to be new markets so that the renegotiation clause of their existing contract could be updated. Therefore we had to refuse the counter offer of the school in question. Missouri was recommended as a replacement. But there's a lot more to this whole story than I care to print at this time.

As far as Florida State and N.C. State are concerned, neither really offers the kind of value that the new contract which begins in 2024 (or sooner if ESPN bought out the last 3 years of the CBS contract) would require. How many schools can add to the SEC's value when the per school payout hits at least 67 million? Outside of the Big 10, the answer is 3: Texas, Notre Dame, and Oklahoma in that order.
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2020 02:10 PM by JRsec.)
03-26-2020 01:46 PM
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