Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
Author Message
Big Frog II Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,185
Joined: Nov 2010
Reputation: 44
I Root For: TCU
Location:
Post: #221
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
I can see the Pac 12 getting split between the Big 10 and the Big 12.
03-25-2020 02:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
texoma Offline
Bench Warmer
*

Posts: 148
Joined: Feb 2019
Reputation: 8
I Root For: Collegefootball
Location:
Post: #222
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 01:46 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 12:25 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(03-24-2020 11:31 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  Yeah I agree Big 12 teams will be included.

The question is which ones. I would be interested in your thoughts and rationals. I would also assume as an AAU school, a school close by, and a school with history Colorado would flip East.

Specific questions I would appreciate your thoughts that I’ve wondered.

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska?

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston?

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona?

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them?

What makes this different ( if it occurred) is this time it really is a marriage of equals. I think USC and Texas would be the prime movers. Other than AZ, the west is pretty simple. It’s the East that has issues and how do you execute the merger without the SEC and Big12 from blowing it up.

This discussion is valid. For college football to continue as a national sport (and to fund the biggest percentage of the rest of college athletics), there has to be a nationally relevant western conference. College football will always be more popular in the South and Midwest. There is a greater density of college football fans in those two regions. Yes, I'd prefer for my team to go east rather than west. But, the opportunity exists (with a few hoops to jump through) to create a new western conference. I do not know if it can generate the revenue needed to keep up with the SEC and B1G, but it could be an improvement over the current Pac-12 or B12. These questions have been raised regarding the formation of the "Airport" conference (working name after the airport meeting required to form it).

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska? It's worth it. I'm doubtful to whether Nebraska would consider it. They have gone through some pain to attain full membership in the B1G. They're not going to give that up unless mobs of Husker fans storm the campus demanding to play old Big 8 rivals.

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter. They're worth approaching with the opportunity to bring the old Big 8 gang together again. Yes, they are a fish out of water in the SEC. But, they like being there, are secure there, and would choose to stay.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might. Regarding Baylor, the combination of religious affiliation and scandal work against them. Tech would absolutely be included in this conference. TCU is secular enough to pass muster, is located in DFW, and is a faithful ally of UT..they're in. Oklahoma State, though not located in Texas, functions as a Texas school for these purposes.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston? The Houston market is important. UT has a good portion of it by themselves. There is institutional rivalry between UT and UH that can better be explained by posters from those schools. Let's just say that there are plenty that regard UH as Cougar High. I personally believe that an "Airport" conference needs to compete with the SEC (A&M/LSU) in Houston, and UH would help them do that.

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona? KU will have the freedom to leave K-State, but like Washington/Oregon/Arizona, they can't be the instigators. The "Airport" conference would be an option for them.

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them? If there was ever such thing as a strong second school in a small state, Iowa State is it. They are highly regarded academically, have a strong fan base and facilities, and are competitive on the field. The "Airport" conference would present its best opportunity to continue as a P school. I believe they would bring value to the "Airport" conference.

In my opinion, Colorado would present an issue. Yes, they would want to be part of this. But, they would rather travel west. They left the Big 12 for the Pac 12 so they could play in California, where their largest group of out-of-state alumni reside, and where they recruit large numbers of students. They would rather be in California than in Texas.

Interesting points and insights. I’m not sure from your commentary who your initial gang and preferred 8 would be. I agree Colorado might want to be west and might be satisfied with a 7-2 model which could give them a CA game every other year. But I think if you look at the schools in the west you almost have to send them to the east side.

Sactowndog, you asked my thoughts on the Bi2/PAC12 merger. My opinion is very much what johintx has said. The only thing I might add is that I do not believe TCU would be included in the group joining with the PAC schools. IIRC they still have connections with the Disciples of Christ with their ministry program, but more importantly they have very few fans outside of Tarrant county and IMO do not deliver the DFW market. Tech and OSU have gobs of alumns in DFW.

I think Kansas would be a much better choice along with OSU and Tech. Their academics and basketball are excellent. Also, when Larry Scott was working on the original Texhoma deal, I read that Scott was enamored with KU and had thoughts of including them in the deal.

Houston? I agree with all that johnintx said about the Houston market, but they have very few fans and I do not know that they would be of any benefit.

Hats off to johnintx for a very good analysis.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 07:27 PM by texoma.)
03-25-2020 03:32 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Thiefery Offline
Water Engineer
*

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb 2020
Reputation: 7
I Root For: TEXAS
Location:
Post: #223
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.
03-25-2020 08:24 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Sactowndog Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,854
Joined: Dec 2010
Reputation: 38
I Root For: Fresno State
Location:
Post: #224
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

Just like I don’t know the Midwest schools, I can tell you that USC is highly unlikely to leave Cal and Stanford nor would they join a conference with the Academic profile of the Big 12.

As far as Oklahoma, I’m pretty sure they are aware Utah was recently awarded AAU membership and that might me way more likely for them if they were in a conference with 12-13 other AAU schools.
03-25-2020 08:41 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Sactowndog Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,854
Joined: Dec 2010
Reputation: 38
I Root For: Fresno State
Location:
Post: #225
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and bests
(03-25-2020 03:32 PM)texoma Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 01:46 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 12:25 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(03-24-2020 11:31 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  Yeah I agree Big 12 teams will be included.

The question is which ones. I would be interested in your thoughts and rationals. I would also assume as an AAU school, a school close by, and a school with history Colorado would flip East.

Specific questions I would appreciate your thoughts that I’ve wondered.

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska?

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston?

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona?

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them?

What makes this different ( if it occurred) is this time it really is a marriage of equals. I think USC and Texas would be the prime movers. Other than AZ, the west is pretty simple. It’s the East that has issues and how do you execute the merger without the SEC and Big12 from blowing it up.

This discussion is valid. For college football to continue as a national sport (and to fund the biggest percentage of the rest of college athletics), there has to be a nationally relevant western conference. College football will always be more popular in the South and Midwest. There is a greater density of college football fans in those two regions. Yes, I'd prefer for my team to go east rather than west. But, the opportunity exists (with a few hoops to jump through) to create a new western conference. I do not know if it can generate the revenue needed to keep up with the SEC and B1G, but it could be an improvement over the current Pac-12 or B12. These questions have been raised regarding the formation of the "Airport" conference (working name after the airport meeting required to form it).

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska? It's worth it. I'm doubtful to whether Nebraska would consider it. They have gone through some pain to attain full membership in the B1G. They're not going to give that up unless mobs of Husker fans storm the campus demanding to play old Big 8 rivals.

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter. They're worth approaching with the opportunity to bring the old Big 8 gang together again. Yes, they are a fish out of water in the SEC. But, they like being there, are secure there, and would choose to stay.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might. Regarding Baylor, the combination of religious affiliation and scandal work against them. Tech would absolutely be included in this conference. TCU is secular enough to pass muster, is located in DFW, and is a faithful ally of UT..they're in. Oklahoma State, though not located in Texas, functions as a Texas school for these purposes.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston? The Houston market is important. UT has a good portion of it by themselves. There is institutional rivalry between UT and UH that can better be explained by posters from those schools. Let's just say that there are plenty that regard UH as Cougar High. I personally believe that an "Airport" conference needs to compete with the SEC (A&M/LSU) in Houston, and UH would help them do that.

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona? KU will have the freedom to leave K-State, but like Washington/Oregon/Arizona, they can't be the instigators. The "Airport" conference would be an option for them.

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them? If there was ever such thing as a strong second school in a small state, Iowa State is it. They are highly regarded academically, have a strong fan base and facilities, and are competitive on the field. The "Airport" conference would present its best opportunity to continue as a P school. I believe they would bring value to the "Airport" conference.

In my opinion, Colorado would present an issue. Yes, they would want to be part of this. But, they would rather travel west. They left the Big 12 for the Pac 12 so they could play in California, where their largest group of out-of-state alumni reside, and where they recruit large numbers of students. They would rather be in California than in Texas.

Interesting points and insights. I’m not sure from your commentary who your initial gang and preferred 8 would be. I agree Colorado might want to be west and might be satisfied with a 7-2 model which could give them a CA game every other year. But I think if you look at the schools in the west you almost have to send them to the east side.

Sactowndog, you asked my thoughts on the Bi2/PAC12 merger. My opinion is very much what johintx has said. The only thing I might add is that I do not believe TCU would be included in the group joining with the PAC schools. IIRC they still have connections with the Disciples of Christ with their ministry program, but more importantly they have very few fans outside of Tarrant county and IMO do not deliver the DFW market. Tech and OSU have gobs of alumns in DFW.

I think Kansas would be a much better choice along with OSU and Tech. Their academics and basketball are excellent. Also, when Larry Scott was working on the original Texhoma deal, I read that Scott was enamored with KU and had thoughts of including them in the deal.

Houston? I agree with all that johnintx said about the Houston market, but they have very few fans and I do not know that they would be of any benefit.

Hats off to johnintx for a very good analysis.

So let’s assume Nebraska and Missouri say no:

I’m I right in saying your Eastern eight would be:

Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas, Colorado, Iowa State, Houston. With Iowa State and Houston only added once Nebraska and Missouri said no?

While I think TCU would be accepted and it’s academics are much better than OK State it does make your initial Airport meeting group much easier as both Oklahoma and OK State could be there.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 08:52 PM by Sactowndog.)
03-25-2020 08:47 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Sactowndog Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,854
Joined: Dec 2010
Reputation: 38
I Root For: Fresno State
Location:
Post: #226
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 08:47 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 03:32 PM)texoma Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 01:46 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 12:25 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(03-24-2020 11:31 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  Yeah I agree Big 12 teams will be included.

The question is which ones. I would be interested in your thoughts and rationals. I would also assume as an AAU school, a school close by, and a school with history Colorado would flip East.

Specific questions I would appreciate your thoughts that I’ve wondered.

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska?

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston?

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona?

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them?

What makes this different ( if it occurred) is this time it really is a marriage of equals. I think USC and Texas would be the prime movers. Other than AZ, the west is pretty simple. It’s the East that has issues and how do you execute the merger without the SEC and Big12 from blowing it up.

This discussion is valid. For college football to continue as a national sport (and to fund the biggest percentage of the rest of college athletics), there has to be a nationally relevant western conference. College football will always be more popular in the South and Midwest. There is a greater density of college football fans in those two regions. Yes, I'd prefer for my team to go east rather than west. But, the opportunity exists (with a few hoops to jump through) to create a new western conference. I do not know if it can generate the revenue needed to keep up with the SEC and B1G, but it could be an improvement over the current Pac-12 or B12. These questions have been raised regarding the formation of the "Airport" conference (working name after the airport meeting required to form it).

How much value would Texas and Oklahoma see in approaching Nebraska? It's worth it. I'm doubtful to whether Nebraska would consider it. They have gone through some pain to attain full membership in the B1G. They're not going to give that up unless mobs of Husker fans storm the campus demanding to play old Big 8 rivals.

Same question with Missouri? Approaching either increases your risk so they have to matter. They're worth approaching with the opportunity to bring the old Big 8 gang together again. Yes, they are a fish out of water in the SEC. But, they like being there, are secure there, and would choose to stay.

Would Texas insist on 4 schools to balance the CA 4 or would 3 be okay and if so which 3? I’m not sure religious affiliation matters but scandal might. Regarding Baylor, the combination of religious affiliation and scandal work against them. Tech would absolutely be included in this conference. TCU is secular enough to pass muster, is located in DFW, and is a faithful ally of UT..they're in. Oklahoma State, though not located in Texas, functions as a Texas school for these purposes.

How important is the Houston market and do they offer U of Houston? The Houston market is important. UT has a good portion of it by themselves. There is institutional rivalry between UT and UH that can better be explained by posters from those schools. Let's just say that there are plenty that regard UH as Cougar High. I personally believe that an "Airport" conference needs to compete with the SEC (A&M/LSU) in Houston, and UH would help them do that.

Can Kansas be part of the initial group or are they like Washington/Oregon/Arizona? KU will have the freedom to leave K-State, but like Washington/Oregon/Arizona, they can't be the instigators. The "Airport" conference would be an option for them.

Iowa State is AAU, is it worth adding them? If there was ever such thing as a strong second school in a small state, Iowa State is it. They are highly regarded academically, have a strong fan base and facilities, and are competitive on the field. The "Airport" conference would present its best opportunity to continue as a P school. I believe they would bring value to the "Airport" conference.

In my opinion, Colorado would present an issue. Yes, they would want to be part of this. But, they would rather travel west. They left the Big 12 for the Pac 12 so they could play in California, where their largest group of out-of-state alumni reside, and where they recruit large numbers of students. They would rather be in California than in Texas.

Interesting points and insights. I’m not sure from your commentary who your initial gang and preferred 8 would be. I agree Colorado might want to be west and might be satisfied with a 7-2 model which could give them a CA game every other year. But I think if you look at the schools in the west you almost have to send them to the east side.

Sactowndog, you asked my thoughts on the Bi2/PAC12 merger. My opinion is very much what johintx has said. The only thing I might add is that I do not believe TCU would be included in the group joining with the PAC schools. IIRC they still have connections with the Disciples of Christ with their ministry program, but more importantly they have very few fans outside of Tarrant county and IMO do not deliver the DFW market. Tech and OSU have gobs of alumns in DFW.

I think Kansas would be a much better choice along with OSU and Tech. Their academics and basketball are excellent. Also, when Larry Scott was working on the original Texhoma deal, I read that Scott was enamored with KU and had thoughts of including them in the deal.

Houston? I agree with all that johnintx said about the Houston market, but they have very few fans and I do not know that they would be of any benefit.

Hats off to johnintx for a very good analysis.

I think the academic snobs of the PAC would dream of:
Colorado, Texas, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa State, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Texas Tech

But they are going to have to make some compromises.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 09:23 PM by Sactowndog.)
03-25-2020 08:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JRsec Offline
Super Moderator
*

Posts: 23,333
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 2288
I Root For: SEC
Location:
Post: #227
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 09:00 PM by JRsec.)
03-25-2020 08:57 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Sactowndog Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,854
Joined: Dec 2010
Reputation: 38
I Root For: Fresno State
Location:
Post: #228
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

Leave it to the SEC guy to leave out Academics...
03-25-2020 09:25 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Erictelevision Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 892
Joined: Jan 2016
Reputation: 14
I Root For: Uconn hoops
Location:
Post: #229
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 02:33 PM)Big Frog II Wrote:  I can see the Pac 12 getting split between the Big 10 and the Big 12.

I don't understand this. I could see the Big XII being bifurcated by the B1G and PAC 12.
03-25-2020 09:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Sactowndog Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,854
Joined: Dec 2010
Reputation: 38
I Root For: Fresno State
Location:
Post: #230
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

As far as valuations goes, those are based off of Gross Revenue which is highly impacted by Television dollars. A California/Texas based conference will generate plenty of television revenue and flip the script on many of those valuation numbers.

As far as Content Multipliers: USC, UCLA, Oklahoma, Texas and Washington all fit the bill.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2020 09:38 PM by Sactowndog.)
03-25-2020 09:34 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
esayem Offline
Hark The Sound!
*

Posts: 6,299
Joined: Feb 2007
Reputation: 218
I Root For: The Heels
Location: Tobacco Road
Post: #231
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
Modern literature states you’ll have Pacific Coast property in Reno in due time. 07-coffee3
03-25-2020 09:39 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JRsec Offline
Super Moderator
*

Posts: 23,333
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 2288
I Root For: SEC
Location:
Post: #232
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 09:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

Leave it to the SEC guy to leave out Academics...

Every SEC school is a Carnegie R1 institution. By mandate of the Reconstruction Constitutions most schools in the South had divided disciplines. I think the idea at the time was keep the leaders from different fields from associating, which is what helped build the Confederate leadership at schools that were established prior to Civil War. Of course the U.S. Military Academy was probably the deepest in such associations, but that's beside the point.

So Medicine and Law were the focus of one state school and Agriculture and Engineering at the other. Some states later rewrote their constitutions and got out from under some of that onus and others did not.

But with population moving South the trajectory for the SEC schools is bright. Alabama and Georgia have Medicine now taught at facilities not located at the campus sites. That hurts as well.

But tell me does Fresno State have an R1 rating?

I let your ignorance on this topic pass the first time I read it, but unless you went to Cal, or UW, or Stanford I don't think you have any room to talk. I did my Master's work at Emory.

When the SEC formed out of the old Southern Conference it was for Sports. The focus of the Conference was not Academics per se.

In fact I'd say we are headed for dichotomous purposes with regards to conferences. If a school is AAU like A&M, Mizzou, Florida, and Vanderbilt they have no problem having and forming academic alliances with other AAU schools. Why do they need their conference to do that for them? Conferences for the most part are regional sports associations.

Do you think the PAC has been hurt athletically by not having associations with better sports brands? Might the Big 10 have found better competition if not so bound to the academic associations than the additions of Rutgers and Maryland? Did the ACC learn a valuable lesson when they took what they felt was an academic outlier in Louisville, a school that has raised their football and basketball value to heights higher than they had with AAU Maryland?

So the SEC's 14 schools are all at least Carnegie R1 now. Our research money is growing, and intentionally so, but the requirements for AAU membership have guidelines which were contrary to the state constitutions that many Southern schools operated under through the 60's (so literally for 100 years). We may be late to the party, but I have a feeling we'll be fine in the years ahead.

BTW it was easier for private schools in the South to organize their disciplines so that's why Tulane, Vanderbilt, Emory, Duke, and other such privates rate so highly academically. They of course could afford to be more selective of their students, but also were free of the restraints that were placed upon state schools.
03-25-2020 11:34 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Thiefery Offline
Water Engineer
*

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb 2020
Reputation: 7
I Root For: TEXAS
Location:
Post: #233
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
Wait is the AAU helping the schools in the current Pac 12 financially on the academic side? Because I thought that those schools were barely breaking even. I don't know much about the academic fraternity but Nebraska joined with the Rust Belt as an AAU member and then lost it's membership.

The idea that the AAU is a conference fraternity is a joke, they should be a nation wide one.

Texas is an AAU school, yet the academic side still gets a huge chunk of the athletic revenue. But who knew that they were hurting themselves aligning with sooo many non AAU schools?
03-26-2020 08:02 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Sactowndog Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,854
Joined: Dec 2010
Reputation: 38
I Root For: Fresno State
Location:
Post: #234
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-25-2020 11:34 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 09:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

Leave it to the SEC guy to leave out Academics...

Every SEC school is a Carnegie R1 institution. By mandate of the Reconstruction Constitutions most schools in the South had divided disciplines. I think the idea at the time was keep the leaders from different fields from associating, which is what helped build the Confederate leadership at schools that were established prior to Civil War. Of course the U.S. Military Academy was probably the deepest in such associations, but that's beside the point.

So Medicine and Law were the focus of one state school and Agriculture and Engineering at the other. Some states later rewrote their constitutions and got out from under some of that onus and others did not.

But with population moving South the trajectory for the SEC schools is bright. Alabama and Georgia have Medicine now taught at facilities not located at the campus sites. That hurts as well.

But tell me does Fresno State have an R1 rating?

I let your ignorance on this topic pass the first time I read it, but unless you went to Cal, or UW, or Stanford I don't think you have any room to talk. I did my Master's work at Emory.

When the SEC formed out of the old Southern Conference it was for Sports. The focus of the Conference was not Academics per se.

In fact I'd say we are headed for dichotomous purposes with regards to conferences. If a school is AAU like A&M, Mizzou, Florida, and Vanderbilt they have no problem having and forming academic alliances with other AAU schools. Why do they need their conference to do that for them? Conferences for the most part are regional sports associations.

Do you think the PAC has been hurt athletically by not having associations with better sports brands? Might the Big 10 have found better competition if not so bound to the academic associations than the additions of Rutgers and Maryland? Did the ACC learn a valuable lesson when they took what they felt was an academic outlier in Louisville, a school that has raised their football and basketball value to heights higher than they had with AAU Maryland?

So the SEC's 14 schools are all at least Carnegie R1 now. Our research money is growing, and intentionally so, but the requirements for AAU membership have guidelines which were contrary to the state constitutions that many Southern schools operated under through the 60's (so literally for 100 years). We may be late to the party, but I have a feeling we'll be fine in the years ahead.

BTW it was easier for private schools in the South to organize their disciplines so that's why Tulane, Vanderbilt, Emory, Duke, and other such privates rate so highly academically. They of course could afford to be more selective of their students, but also were free of the restraints that were placed upon state schools.

For the record I went to Pomona College.

I was not denigrating Southern Schools and find your history lesson interesting. What I did say was leave it to you to leave Academics out of your analysis. It is an incomplete picture without that factor and one which today does not favor the SEC.

In 2019, the AAU offered three new invitations. Those went to Dartmouth, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Utah. Oklahoma can read the tea leaves.
03-26-2020 09:25 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hokie Mark Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 17,952
Joined: Sep 2011
Reputation: 710
I Root For: VT, ACC teams
Location: Charlotte, NC
Post: #235
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 09:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  In 2019, the AAU offered three new invitations. Those went to Dartmouth, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Utah. Oklahoma can read the tea leaves.

SEC fans don't "read" tea leaves... they run hot water through them and pour it over ice to make iced tea!
07-coffee3

As to your previous comments: I agree that academics will be a factor - they always have been. That said, neither the Pac-12 nor the Big XII is strong enough to swallow the other... but a brokered merger could work, IF there's any desire to do so.
03-26-2020 09:36 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bullet Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 39,384
Joined: Apr 2012
Reputation: 1315
I Root For: Texas, UK, UGA
Location:
Post: #236
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 08:02 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  Wait is the AAU helping the schools in the current Pac 12 financially on the academic side? Because I thought that those schools were barely breaking even. I don't know much about the academic fraternity but Nebraska joined with the Rust Belt as an AAU member and then lost it's membership.

The idea that the AAU is a conference fraternity is a joke, they should be a nation wide one.

Texas is an AAU school, yet the academic side still gets a huge chunk of the athletic revenue. But who knew that they were hurting themselves aligning with sooo many non AAU schools?

And of course, Texas has no agriculture. That's why A&M has higher research dollars. The Texas medical school just opened 2 or 3 years ago, yet Texas was still one of the highest rated institutions on research (and UT Southwestern Medical school, UT Houston Medical School, UT San Antonio Medical School, UT Medical Branch and UT MD Anderson Cancer Center are all highly ranked in research as well).
03-26-2020 09:43 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bullet Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 39,384
Joined: Apr 2012
Reputation: 1315
I Root For: Texas, UK, UGA
Location:
Post: #237
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 09:36 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 09:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  In 2019, the AAU offered three new invitations. Those went to Dartmouth, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Utah. Oklahoma can read the tea leaves.

SEC fans don't "read" tea leaves... they run hot water through them and pour it over ice to make iced tea!
07-coffee3

As to your previous comments: I agree that academics will be a factor - they always have been. That said, neither the Pac-12 nor the Big XII is strong enough to swallow the other... but a brokered merger could work, IF there's any desire to do so.

And then they ruin the ice tea with sugar.04-cheers
03-26-2020 09:44 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JRsec Offline
Super Moderator
*

Posts: 23,333
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 2288
I Root For: SEC
Location:
Post: #238
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 09:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 11:34 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 09:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:24 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  Enough with the mental gymnastics. Big 12 isn't going to break up to break up. If they are smart, they have to show SC the money and it's potential money with its Trojan network as a tier 3 package.

Once SC agrees, UCLA will follow along with both AZ schools. Big 12 will now be 14 with two divisions. Best outcome would be if WV gets invited by the ACC but it don't see that happening so the two 7 school divisions would be..
UT, SC, TT, bu, UCLA, AZ, ASU
Ou, okie light, TCU, KS, ksu, Iowa St, WVU
9 game conference schedule
6 vs divisional schools
1 permanent cross over game (UT/ou, Tcu/bu, etc)
2 cross divisional games.

Think ppl over sell the pac 12 members outside the LA schools. AZ is growing rapidly and is becoming a fertile recruiting state. As a cfb fan, it would suck seeing the pac 12 lose its LA schools, however if the big 12 can be aggressive, this would solidify the conference as a mainstay.

1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

Leave it to the SEC guy to leave out Academics...

Every SEC school is a Carnegie R1 institution. By mandate of the Reconstruction Constitutions most schools in the South had divided disciplines. I think the idea at the time was keep the leaders from different fields from associating, which is what helped build the Confederate leadership at schools that were established prior to Civil War. Of course the U.S. Military Academy was probably the deepest in such associations, but that's beside the point.

So Medicine and Law were the focus of one state school and Agriculture and Engineering at the other. Some states later rewrote their constitutions and got out from under some of that onus and others did not.

But with population moving South the trajectory for the SEC schools is bright. Alabama and Georgia have Medicine now taught at facilities not located at the campus sites. That hurts as well.

But tell me does Fresno State have an R1 rating?

I let your ignorance on this topic pass the first time I read it, but unless you went to Cal, or UW, or Stanford I don't think you have any room to talk. I did my Master's work at Emory.

When the SEC formed out of the old Southern Conference it was for Sports. The focus of the Conference was not Academics per se.

In fact I'd say we are headed for dichotomous purposes with regards to conferences. If a school is AAU like A&M, Mizzou, Florida, and Vanderbilt they have no problem having and forming academic alliances with other AAU schools. Why do they need their conference to do that for them? Conferences for the most part are regional sports associations.

Do you think the PAC has been hurt athletically by not having associations with better sports brands? Might the Big 10 have found better competition if not so bound to the academic associations than the additions of Rutgers and Maryland? Did the ACC learn a valuable lesson when they took what they felt was an academic outlier in Louisville, a school that has raised their football and basketball value to heights higher than they had with AAU Maryland?

So the SEC's 14 schools are all at least Carnegie R1 now. Our research money is growing, and intentionally so, but the requirements for AAU membership have guidelines which were contrary to the state constitutions that many Southern schools operated under through the 60's (so literally for 100 years). We may be late to the party, but I have a feeling we'll be fine in the years ahead.

BTW it was easier for private schools in the South to organize their disciplines so that's why Tulane, Vanderbilt, Emory, Duke, and other such privates rate so highly academically. They of course could afford to be more selective of their students, but also were free of the restraints that were placed upon state schools.

For the record I went to Pomona College.

I was not denigrating Southern Schools and find your history lesson interesting. What I did say was leave it to you to leave Academics out of your analysis. It is an incomplete picture without that factor and one which today does not favor the SEC.

In 2019, the AAU offered three new invitations. Those went to Dartmouth, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Utah. Oklahoma can read the tea leaves.

And you miss my point. For the SEC profitability is the most important factor in realignment. Academics are a consideration but the baseline for that has now become an R1 Carnegie ranking. So how many top schools for realignment fail to achieve that status? Certainly no school the SEC would consider.

Therefore it isn't much of a factor. And what many schools are discovering is that making it a major consideration is an unnecessary and self limiting consideration for them. The Big 10 has made a nod in that direction by taking Nebraska, offering Notre Dame, and now considering Oklahoma.

The ACC acknowledged it when they took Louisville. The PAC has had a strong academic profile but Utah's admission improved your ratio.

There is but one issue before us. Academicians need to get their heads out of the past and into the present because the dichotomy between sports and academics has never been greater than it is now and thinking of the University as having one holistic mission is as alien to 2020 as nuclear energy was to the 1860's. And in this antiquated way of thinking the schools the academicians serve are hobbled by their inability to acknowledge the two separate and distinct career paths of top athletes and top students.

The "SEC" guy stuff is just a needless cheap shot in a more profound argument between what was and what is. And if you don't believe this issue matters just wait for more court rulings. There are two wholly distinct groups of students on almost every D1 campus and they with limited exceptions are mutually exclusive subsets of the student body, Academic students and student Athletes. Every school would be better off acknowledging those two groups formally and celebrating their distinctions and governing them separately.
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2020 12:59 PM by JRsec.)
03-26-2020 12:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Sactowndog Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,854
Joined: Dec 2010
Reputation: 38
I Root For: Fresno State
Location:
Post: #239
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 12:53 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 09:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 11:34 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 09:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 08:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  1. The Big 12 was on the only P5 conference to suffer a loss in their average gross total revenue for 2018-9. Just note that this occurred in a year when the Horns had stellar numbers, but OU showed a decrease year over year due to a large donation for softball renovation the year before. So the Big 12 isn't really hurting, but they aren't really gaining either.

2. None of the PAC schools are going to break up their arrangement over sports revenue. The fantasy is that the Big 12 can attract anyone. It's not happening.

3. This is a sports forum right in the middle of no sports due to the COVID19 virus. Mental gymnastics is all anyone has to go on right now. And if coming up with speculative scenarios entertains those who create them then so be it.

4. The networks pay for all of this. They would make oodles more money from Oklahoma and Texas vs an SEC lineup or Big 10 lineup than they would make from the Big 12 remaining as is, or they would make by adding the tepid least watched members of the PAC 12.

5. The new mantra for TV execs is "Content value" and "Content multipliers". Texas and Oklahoma have Content value, but they only play each other once and nobody else in the Big 12 moves the needle nationally for them. Content multipliers are top brands with a national following who play other Content rich schools.

In the Big 10 those would be Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska and Wisconsin and regional content games against Iowa and Michigan State.

In the SEC those would be Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, Georgia, Auburn, and L.S.U., with strong regional interest in Tennessee, and occasionally a Mississippi school or Arkansas if they are up.

So FOX will be after Oklahoma and Texas as a pair because they make FOX a lot more money in the Big 10 rather than the Big 12 and ESPN will be Oklahoma and Texas because they them a lot more money in the SEC.

ESPN might also hold some interest in Kansas's hoops brand. And I would think FOX might as well. The Big 10 has strong basketball and Kansas could create more top match ups. In the SEC they become Kentucky's rival.

That's how the real world is going to operate.

But since this is the ultimate funny season having no sports at all to drive discussion your assertion of the Arizona and L.A. schools heading to the Big 12 is fair game. Just don't deride the other kooky scenarios. If it's reality you want to discuss then looking at the numbers (Gross Total Revenue, attendance, WSJ valuations, and Ratings) yield an entirely different picture.

Leave it to the SEC guy to leave out Academics...

Every SEC school is a Carnegie R1 institution. By mandate of the Reconstruction Constitutions most schools in the South had divided disciplines. I think the idea at the time was keep the leaders from different fields from associating, which is what helped build the Confederate leadership at schools that were established prior to Civil War. Of course the U.S. Military Academy was probably the deepest in such associations, but that's beside the point.

So Medicine and Law were the focus of one state school and Agriculture and Engineering at the other. Some states later rewrote their constitutions and got out from under some of that onus and others did not.

But with population moving South the trajectory for the SEC schools is bright. Alabama and Georgia have Medicine now taught at facilities not located at the campus sites. That hurts as well.

But tell me does Fresno State have an R1 rating?

I let your ignorance on this topic pass the first time I read it, but unless you went to Cal, or UW, or Stanford I don't think you have any room to talk. I did my Master's work at Emory.

When the SEC formed out of the old Southern Conference it was for Sports. The focus of the Conference was not Academics per se.

In fact I'd say we are headed for dichotomous purposes with regards to conferences. If a school is AAU like A&M, Mizzou, Florida, and Vanderbilt they have no problem having and forming academic alliances with other AAU schools. Why do they need their conference to do that for them? Conferences for the most part are regional sports associations.

Do you think the PAC has been hurt athletically by not having associations with better sports brands? Might the Big 10 have found better competition if not so bound to the academic associations than the additions of Rutgers and Maryland? Did the ACC learn a valuable lesson when they took what they felt was an academic outlier in Louisville, a school that has raised their football and basketball value to heights higher than they had with AAU Maryland?

So the SEC's 14 schools are all at least Carnegie R1 now. Our research money is growing, and intentionally so, but the requirements for AAU membership have guidelines which were contrary to the state constitutions that many Southern schools operated under through the 60's (so literally for 100 years). We may be late to the party, but I have a feeling we'll be fine in the years ahead.

BTW it was easier for private schools in the South to organize their disciplines so that's why Tulane, Vanderbilt, Emory, Duke, and other such privates rate so highly academically. They of course could afford to be more selective of their students, but also were free of the restraints that were placed upon state schools.

For the record I went to Pomona College.

I was not denigrating Southern Schools and find your history lesson interesting. What I did say was leave it to you to leave Academics out of your analysis. It is an incomplete picture without that factor and one which today does not favor the SEC.

In 2019, the AAU offered three new invitations. Those went to Dartmouth, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Utah. Oklahoma can read the tea leaves.

And you miss my point. For the SEC profitability is the most important factor in realignment. Academics are a consideration but the baseline for that has now become an R1 Carnegie ranking. So how many top schools for realignment fail to achieve that status? Certainly no school the SEC would consider.

Therefore it isn't much of a factor. And what many schools are discovering is that making it a major consideration is an unnecessary and self limiting consideration for them. The Big 10 has made a nod in that direction by taking Nebraska, offering Notre Dame, and now considering Oklahoma.

The ACC acknowledged it when they took Louisville. The PAC has had a strong academic profile but Utah's admission improved your ratio.

There is but one issue before us. Academicians need to get their heads out of the past and into the present because the dichotomy between sports and academics has never been greater than it is now and thinking of the University as having one holistic mission is as alien to 2020 as nuclear energy was to the 1860's. And in this antiquated way of thinking the schools the academicians serve are hobbled by their inability to acknowledge the two separate and distinct career paths of top athletes and top students.

The "SEC" guy stuff is just a needless cheap shot in a more profound argument between what was and what is. And if you don't believe this issue matters just wait for more court rulings. There are two wholly distinct groups of students on almost every D1 campus and they with limited exceptions are mutually exclusive subsets of the student body, Academic students and student Athletes. Every school would be better off acknowledging those two groups formally and celebrating their distinctions and governing them separately.

I disagree it’s separate but not worth the debate. As far as revenue/profitability to the school, research grants dwarf athletic revenue at top research institutions and those tend to be all AAU schools.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

As for the cheap shot, you left out Academics when comparing leagues which clearly favors the SEC. Not sure why you don’t think it’s appropriate to call you out on it?
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2020 01:11 PM by Sactowndog.)
03-26-2020 01:09 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Thiefery Offline
Water Engineer
*

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb 2020
Reputation: 7
I Root For: TEXAS
Location:
Post: #240
RE: Staples: Now’s the time, Big 12, to go after the Pac-12’s biggest and best
(03-26-2020 09:43 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 08:02 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  Wait is the AAU helping the schools in the current Pac 12 financially on the academic side? Because I thought that those schools were barely breaking even. I don't know much about the academic fraternity but Nebraska joined with the Rust Belt as an AAU member and then lost it's membership.

The idea that the AAU is a conference fraternity is a joke, they should be a nation wide one.

Texas is an AAU school, yet the academic side still gets a huge chunk of the athletic revenue. But who knew that they were hurting themselves aligning with sooo many non AAU schools?

And of course, Texas has no agriculture. That's why A&M has higher research dollars. The Texas medical school just opened 2 or 3 years ago, yet Texas was still one of the highest rated institutions on research (and UT Southwestern Medical school, UT Houston Medical School, UT San Antonio Medical School, UT Medical Branch and UT MD Anderson Cancer Center are all highly ranked in research as well).

aggy research money still pales in comparison to Texas research.. In fact aggy is becoming a diploma mill with it's high acceptance rate and still is asking the state for more money. Texas doesn't. I also think Texas is assisting Tech with the agriculture because they are now increasing in numbers as well. I am planning to move back home (Austin) from where I have been residing for the past 15 years (VA). My daughter wants to be a vet and has been looking at schools. Aggy of course, comes up however Tech is also high on the list. She can pick whichever school she wants but I really hope it isn't in college station.(Still hold out hope she wants to do something else and instead attend UT)
03-26-2020 01:34 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 6 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2020 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2020 MyBB Group.