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Ourland Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Missouri State
(03-03-2020 10:34 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(03-03-2020 09:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-03-2020 01:40 AM)Ourland Wrote:  
(03-01-2020 12:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-01-2020 11:34 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  One of the biggest mistakes Rice made was to sponsor/agree with UH for the SWC. Their shady ways in recruiting et al. and winning 3 of the first post-admittance FB titles led to the scandals of the 80's (not to mention TAMU hiring Jackie and SMU's lack of institutional control led by THE GOVERNOR OF TEXAS), which was a key aspect to the collapse of the SWC.
I have a hard time agreeing with this. The best thing that could have happened to Rice athletics would have been developing a truly intense, competitive rivalry with UH. We are the ones who failed to hold up our end of the bargain there.
The collapse of Rice athletics didn't happen because of UH, or SMU, or aTm, or the SWC. It happened because of RICE. We did it to ourselves by absolutely refusing to field competitive teams in any sport (other than the occasional one-off) for a period of about 20 years. From men's basketball in 1970, track in 1971, and tennis in 1970-72, to a women's cross country in 1994 (per Wikipedia; is anybody but me angry that RiceOwls.com no longer has easy links such information? Maybe we are just ashamed of our history), Rice did not win a single conference championship in any sport. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Unfortunately, that was the same 20 years when intercollegiate athletics evolved into a big business. We missed the boat--badly. Whether we can climb back into the boat or not is questionable, but clearly not easy.
Agree. The only glimmer of hope I see is in the possible breakup of the Big12. We could still end up in an AAC consisting of...
WEST.....................................EAST
SMU.......................................Navy
Tulsa......................................Temple
Rice........................................Marshall
Louisiana Tech......................ECU
Tulane....................................South Florida
Southern Mississippi............UAB
...providing that UH, Memphis, Cincinnati, and UCF go to a revamped Big12.

That would be the upside. But we're not going to get there going 2-11, 3-9 in CUSA football, or landing in Pod 3 in CUSA men's basketball or having a losing record in baseball. And there needs to be some urgency about it. I think the witching hour is 2024 when the XII TV contract runs out. I think you see OU and Okie State to the SEC and Texas and Kansas to the B1G, and the rest of the XII scrambling to put something together, probably involving the four schools you list. So we have something under 4 years to get back onto some kind of reasonable track. Is it doable? Yes. Are we doing what we need to do to make it happen? Not visibly.

We have needed urgency and a plan for decades. I think we were pretty aimless and complacent even back in the Neely days, which we both remember. When the ship sank, we jumped in a lifeboat. Then the lifeboat sank, and we grabbed a cushion. Now the cushion is becoming waterlogged. That is urgency.

+1. Well stated. It's infuriating that they don't even appear to give a damn.
03-03-2020 11:48 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Missouri State
(03-03-2020 11:48 AM)Ourland Wrote:  
(03-03-2020 10:34 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(03-03-2020 09:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-03-2020 01:40 AM)Ourland Wrote:  
(03-01-2020 12:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I have a hard time agreeing with this. The best thing that could have happened to Rice athletics would have been developing a truly intense, competitive rivalry with UH. We are the ones who failed to hold up our end of the bargain there.
The collapse of Rice athletics didn't happen because of UH, or SMU, or aTm, or the SWC. It happened because of RICE. We did it to ourselves by absolutely refusing to field competitive teams in any sport (other than the occasional one-off) for a period of about 20 years. From men's basketball in 1970, track in 1971, and tennis in 1970-72, to a women's cross country in 1994 (per Wikipedia; is anybody but me angry that RiceOwls.com no longer has easy links such information? Maybe we are just ashamed of our history), Rice did not win a single conference championship in any sport. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Unfortunately, that was the same 20 years when intercollegiate athletics evolved into a big business. We missed the boat--badly. Whether we can climb back into the boat or not is questionable, but clearly not easy.
Agree. The only glimmer of hope I see is in the possible breakup of the Big12. We could still end up in an AAC consisting of...
WEST.....................................EAST
SMU.......................................Navy
Tulsa......................................Temple
Rice........................................Marshall
Louisiana Tech......................ECU
Tulane....................................South Florida
Southern Mississippi............UAB
...providing that UH, Memphis, Cincinnati, and UCF go to a revamped Big12.

That would be the upside. But we're not going to get there going 2-11, 3-9 in CUSA football, or landing in Pod 3 in CUSA men's basketball or having a losing record in baseball. And there needs to be some urgency about it. I think the witching hour is 2024 when the XII TV contract runs out. I think you see OU and Okie State to the SEC and Texas and Kansas to the B1G, and the rest of the XII scrambling to put something together, probably involving the four schools you list. So we have something under 4 years to get back onto some kind of reasonable track. Is it doable? Yes. Are we doing what we need to do to make it happen? Not visibly.

We have needed urgency and a plan for decades. I think we were pretty aimless and complacent even back in the Neely days, which we both remember. When the ship sank, we jumped in a lifeboat. Then the lifeboat sank, and we grabbed a cushion. Now the cushion is becoming waterlogged. That is urgency.

+1. Well stated. It's infuriating that they don't even appear to give a damn.

Key word there is "appear". We don't know if they do or they don't, but I don't think we need visible evidence of panic to show us they do.
03-03-2020 12:52 PM
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Ourland Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Missouri State
Very true. It's discouraging when it takes us so long to finally break ground on a practice bubble that was announced over a year ago, while buildings on campus go up at the blink of an eye. And why can't Rice pony up $30 million of it's own cash to fully and completely renovate Rice Stadium? Everyone on the BOT knows that we'll never be able to raise that kind of money through donors. That stadium is our biggest athletics asset, but it doesn't look like there's any rush to bring it back to it's former glory. It's a very big deal to prospective athletes and the better conferences. It's a source of pride to us fans. Frustrating. They all know how much that stadium means to us, but it sits there... in it's dilapidated state. Sad and frustrating.
03-03-2020 02:43 PM
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Post: #84
RE: Missouri State
(03-03-2020 02:43 PM)Ourland Wrote:  Very true. It's discouraging when it takes us so long to finally break ground on a practice bubble that was announced over a year ago, while buildings on campus go up at the blink of an eye. And why can't Rice pony up $30 million of it's own cash to fully and completely renovate Rice Stadium? Everyone on the BOT knows that we'll never be able to raise that kind of money through donors. That stadium is our biggest athletics asset, but it doesn't look like there's any rush to bring it back to it's former glory. It's a very big deal to prospective athletes and the better conferences. It's a source of pride to us fans. Frustrating. They all know how much that stadium means to us, but it sits there... in it's dilapidated state. Sad and frustrating.

+1
I agree with this message!!!
03-03-2020 09:20 PM
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Post: #85
RE: Missouri State
(03-03-2020 10:44 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  sad but the bold has been evident for many many years. I never forget a conversation I had with Mike Pede 15 or so years ago how they had cut his promotional budget since they were solely focused on spending and not net. I still think Texas will go to the PAC as I don't think that the B1G wants to deal with their ego, thus either K State or Iowa St. PAC will get UT, BYU, and 2 from Baylor, Tech, TCU, Boise, AFA, or Colorado St. BIG 12 3.0 will be like the rest-second status.

The "Rice Way" focused solely on cutting spending rather than generating revenues for at least 40 years. Unfortunately that time frame overlaid the period when major programs and select academically elite schools that chose to play big-time athletics--Stanford, Duke being the leaders--made conscious efforts to tap into the revenue opportunities available. Rice didn't. I remember a meeting of football and other lettermen with Hackerman at the Owl Club, at the time of the firing of Ray, where Hackerman kept complaining that athletics had to cut spending because it was overspending its budget. I asked him directly if the problem was exceeding budgeted expenses or shortfalls in revenues, and he responded that it was 100% revenue shortfalls. That was indicative of the thinking of Rice toward athletics at the time.

I don't think PAC will take BYU or Baylor or TCU, since they currently have a policy of not taking a religious school. I think tOSU has an even bigger ego than TexasU, and the B1G lives with that. I would love to be at the first B1G meeting when the Horns start telling everybody else that they don't know how to run a conference.
(This post was last modified: 03-04-2020 05:54 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
03-03-2020 11:34 PM
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Post: #86
RE: Missouri State
(03-03-2020 09:20 PM)owlman70 Wrote:  
(03-03-2020 02:43 PM)Ourland Wrote:  Very true. It's discouraging when it takes us so long to finally break ground on a practice bubble that was announced over a year ago, while buildings on campus go up at the blink of an eye. And why can't Rice pony up $30 million of it's own cash to fully and completely renovate Rice Stadium? Everyone on the BOT knows that we'll never be able to raise that kind of money through donors. That stadium is our biggest athletics asset, but it doesn't look like there's any rush to bring it back to it's former glory. It's a very big deal to prospective athletes and the better conferences. It's a source of pride to us fans. Frustrating. They all know how much that stadium means to us, but it sits there... in it's dilapidated state. Sad and frustrating.

+1
I agree with this message!!!

Agree wholeheartedly
03-04-2020 03:03 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #87
RE: Missouri State
(03-03-2020 02:43 PM)Ourland Wrote:  Very true. It's discouraging when it takes us so long to finally break ground on a practice bubble that was announced over a year ago, while buildings on campus go up at the blink of an eye.

And it seems that the uglier the building, the faster it goes up.
03-04-2020 05:55 AM
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Post: #88
RE: Missouri State
(03-03-2020 11:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-03-2020 10:44 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  sad but the bold has been evident for many many years. I never forget a conversation I had with Mike Pede 15 or so years ago how they had cut his promotional budget since they were solely focused on spending and not net. I still think Texas will go to the PAC as I don't think that the B1G wants to deal with their ego, thus either K State or Iowa St. PAC will get UT, BYU, and 2 from Baylor, Tech, TCU, Boise, AFA, or Colorado St. BIG 12 3.0 will be like the rest-second status.

The "Rice Way" focused solely on cutting spending rather than generating revenues for at least 40 years. Unfortunately that time frame overlaid the period when major programs and select academically elite schools that chose to play big-time athletics--Stanford, Duke being the leaders--made conscious efforts to tap into the revenue opportunities available. Rice didn't. I remember a meeting of football and other lettermen with Hackerman at the Owl Club, at the time of the firing of Ray, where Hackerman kept complaining that athletics had to cut spending because it was overspending its budget. I asked him directly if the problem was exceeding budgeted expenses or shortfalls in revenues, and he responded that it was 100% revenue shortfalls. That was indicative of the thinking of Rice toward athletics at the time.

I don't think PAC will take BYU or Baylor or TCU, since they currently have a policy of not taking a religious school. I think tOSU has an even bigger ego than TexasU, and the B1G lives with that. I would love to be at the first B1G meeting when the Horns start telling everybody else that they don't know how to run a conference.

Now that this thread has been hijacked yet again into a re-alignment thread, let me add a few points:

The Big Ten has a contiguity rule, so Texas won't be going there. Kansas could theoretically go, but its football program and television market profile are too small for consideration. I don't think the Big Ten is looking at expansion for the time being anyway.

There had been discussion in the past that Texas might go to the Pac-12 should it decide to expand. The sticking point here is who would go there with UT, as the Pac-12 wouldn't want to expand without adding two schools. In terms of athletic profile and revenue, the obvious choice would be Brigham Young. However, while I think the Pac-12 could add a religious school, it wouldn't be one that actually acts like one such as BYU. I suppose Oklahoma could be a partner for Texas, but it's been made clear that OU and Oklahoma State are a package deal, and I don't think the Pac-12 would be interested in OSU. Schools like Boise State are right out, as they don't fit the academic profile the Pac-12 likes its schools to have.

As Owl69+ stated earlier, the big driver for any future re-alignment is the re-negotiation of the Big XII television contract. The Big XII is the only one of the so-called "Power 5" conferences not to have its own cable TV network, mainly because Texas made its own deal with ESPN for a cable TV channel, perhaps as a prelude to going independent. However, the Longhorn Network's revenues haven't been all that good. Will ESPN pull the plug on LHN and negotiate a deal with the entire Big XII, forcing UT to go in with the rest of its Big XII compatriots? Being by far the biggest revenue generator in the conference, how would UT feel about having to share TV revenues with its neighbors? It indeed would be ironic if UT, having left the Southwest Conference because it was tired of carrying the other conference members around in terms of revenue, found itself almost thirty years later in a similar situation....
03-05-2020 01:52 PM
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Post: #89
RE: Missouri State
(03-05-2020 01:52 PM)Jonathan Sadow Wrote:  
(03-03-2020 11:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-03-2020 10:44 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  sad but the bold has been evident for many many years. I never forget a conversation I had with Mike Pede 15 or so years ago how they had cut his promotional budget since they were solely focused on spending and not net. I still think Texas will go to the PAC as I don't think that the B1G wants to deal with their ego, thus either K State or Iowa St. PAC will get UT, BYU, and 2 from Baylor, Tech, TCU, Boise, AFA, or Colorado St. BIG 12 3.0 will be like the rest-second status.

The "Rice Way" focused solely on cutting spending rather than generating revenues for at least 40 years. Unfortunately that time frame overlaid the period when major programs and select academically elite schools that chose to play big-time athletics--Stanford, Duke being the leaders--made conscious efforts to tap into the revenue opportunities available. Rice didn't. I remember a meeting of football and other lettermen with Hackerman at the Owl Club, at the time of the firing of Ray, where Hackerman kept complaining that athletics had to cut spending because it was overspending its budget. I asked him directly if the problem was exceeding budgeted expenses or shortfalls in revenues, and he responded that it was 100% revenue shortfalls. That was indicative of the thinking of Rice toward athletics at the time.

I don't think PAC will take BYU or Baylor or TCU, since they currently have a policy of not taking a religious school. I think tOSU has an even bigger ego than TexasU, and the B1G lives with that. I would love to be at the first B1G meeting when the Horns start telling everybody else that they don't know how to run a conference.

Now that this thread has been hijacked yet again into a re-alignment thread, let me add a few points:

The Big Ten has a contiguity rule, so Texas won't be going there. Kansas could theoretically go, but its football program and television market profile are too small for consideration. I don't think the Big Ten is looking at expansion for the time being anyway.

There had been discussion in the past that Texas might go to the Pac-12 should it decide to expand. The sticking point here is who would go there with UT, as the Pac-12 wouldn't want to expand without adding two schools. In terms of athletic profile and revenue, the obvious choice would be Brigham Young. However, while I think the Pac-12 could add a religious school, it wouldn't be one that actually acts like one such as BYU. I suppose Oklahoma could be a partner for Texas, but it's been made clear that OU and Oklahoma State are a package deal, and I don't think the Pac-12 would be interested in OSU. Schools like Boise State are right out, as they don't fit the academic profile the Pac-12 likes its schools to have.

As Owl69+ stated earlier, the big driver for any future re-alignment is the re-negotiation of the Big XII television contract. The Big XII is the only one of the so-called "Power 5" conferences not to have its own cable TV network, mainly because Texas made its own deal with ESPN for a cable TV channel, perhaps as a prelude to going independent. However, the Longhorn Network's revenues haven't been all that good. Will ESPN pull the plug on LHN and negotiate a deal with the entire Big XII, forcing UT to go in with the rest of its Big XII compatriots? Being by far the biggest revenue generator in the conference, how would UT feel about having to share TV revenues with its neighbors? It indeed would be ironic if UT, having left the Southwest Conference because it was tired of carrying the other conference members around in terms of revenue, found itself almost thirty years later in a similar situation....

Still think the most obvious move from the PAC's perspective is Texas and Kansas. Adding Kansas fixes their basketball issues. Adding Texas fixes football a bit. They'd presumably want travel partners for those two, though.
03-05-2020 04:43 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #90
RE: Missouri State
(03-05-2020 04:43 PM)baker-13 Wrote:  Still think the most obvious move from the PAC's perspective is Texas and Kansas. Adding Kansas fixes their basketball issues. Adding Texas fixes football a bit. They'd presumably want travel partners for those two, though.

The problem with the PAC-12 adding TexasU and KU is the Seattle Mariners' problem in MLB. Travel just gets to be a bear, not only in terms of cost but also time. They'd almost have to forget about academics because of time missed going to and fro. And making that haul two or three times a season becomes very wearing. And it's even worse from the TexasU/KU side. There are certain distances you are willing to travel. When it's that far, and repeatedly, it simply doesn't work.

The only two schools that really make sense geographically are Boise and BYU, and neither of them is a fit for a number of other reasons.

If the LHN had been a commercial success, TexasU would go independent.
03-05-2020 05:03 PM
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Post: #91
RE: Missouri State
(03-05-2020 01:52 PM)Jonathan Sadow Wrote:  
(03-03-2020 11:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-03-2020 10:44 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  sad but the bold has been evident for many many years. I never forget a conversation I had with Mike Pede 15 or so years ago how they had cut his promotional budget since they were solely focused on spending and not net. I still think Texas will go to the PAC as I don't think that the B1G wants to deal with their ego, thus either K State or Iowa St. PAC will get UT, BYU, and 2 from Baylor, Tech, TCU, Boise, AFA, or Colorado St. BIG 12 3.0 will be like the rest-second status.

The "Rice Way" focused solely on cutting spending rather than generating revenues for at least 40 years. Unfortunately that time frame overlaid the period when major programs and select academically elite schools that chose to play big-time athletics--Stanford, Duke being the leaders--made conscious efforts to tap into the revenue opportunities available. Rice didn't. I remember a meeting of football and other lettermen with Hackerman at the Owl Club, at the time of the firing of Ray, where Hackerman kept complaining that athletics had to cut spending because it was overspending its budget. I asked him directly if the problem was exceeding budgeted expenses or shortfalls in revenues, and he responded that it was 100% revenue shortfalls. That was indicative of the thinking of Rice toward athletics at the time.

I don't think PAC will take BYU or Baylor or TCU, since they currently have a policy of not taking a religious school. I think tOSU has an even bigger ego than TexasU, and the B1G lives with that. I would love to be at the first B1G meeting when the Horns start telling everybody else that they don't know how to run a conference.

Now that this thread has been hijacked yet again into a re-alignment thread, let me add a few points:

The Big Ten has a contiguity rule, so Texas won't be going there. Kansas could theoretically go, but its football program and television market profile are too small for consideration. I don't think the Big Ten is looking at expansion for the time being anyway.

There had been discussion in the past that Texas might go to the Pac-12 should it decide to expand. The sticking point here is who would go there with UT, as the Pac-12 wouldn't want to expand without adding two schools. In terms of athletic profile and revenue, the obvious choice would be Brigham Young. However, while I think the Pac-12 could add a religious school, it wouldn't be one that actually acts like one such as BYU. I suppose Oklahoma could be a partner for Texas, but it's been made clear that OU and Oklahoma State are a package deal, and I don't think the Pac-12 would be interested in OSU. Schools like Boise State are right out, as they don't fit the academic profile the Pac-12 likes its schools to have.

As Owl69+ stated earlier, the big driver for any future re-alignment is the re-negotiation of the Big XII television contract. The Big XII is the only one of the so-called "Power 5" conferences not to have its own cable TV network, mainly because Texas made its own deal with ESPN for a cable TV channel, perhaps as a prelude to going independent. However, the Longhorn Network's revenues haven't been all that good. Will ESPN pull the plug on LHN and negotiate a deal with the entire Big XII, forcing UT to go in with the rest of its Big XII compatriots? Being by far the biggest revenue generator in the conference, how would UT feel about having to share TV revenues with its neighbors? It indeed would be ironic if UT, having left the Southwest Conference because it was tired of carrying the other conference members around in terms of revenue, found itself almost thirty years later in a similar situation....

Rules are always only rules until money comes to bear, and big money that much more so. If there is one thing that is certain, this is even more true when it comes to academia. (It's like the old joke about how we have established who you are, now we're just negotiating) 4 Super-conferences and the 8 team FB playoff will draw major bucks like there is no tomorrow. It will happen and the Big 12's collapse is not long. We will all enjoy UT's agony during the next realignment having been the one who started it all long ago.
03-05-2020 07:04 PM
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