(04-03-2020 08:13 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 02:39 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:52 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The issue being presented is that if you have 100,000,000 marbles, you are bitching about the use of 1500 of them.

The number is so relatively low to be utterly inconsequential -- but that is a horrendous Trump mistake. Sounds either really stupid to me, are venality that is beyond measure.

Actually, the issue is that you need 100,000,000 marbles but only have 1,000,000 marbles and now we are giving away 1500 of them. So while it is a bit of a drop in the bucket, some of our people are still going to die without those 1500 marbles. Maybe those people will be in New Orleans or West Texas for all we know.

Labeling a spit in the bucket as horrendous mistake actually is pretty stupid. And amazingly petty. Dig in harder there, big. Remind me to *never* ask you to borrow a cup of sugar. Ever. Feel better there?

Did I really call this a "horrendous mistake" or anything like it? His failure to start using the DPA in this way sooner was, IMHO, one of many mistakes. And frankly a pretty small one compared to some of the others.

(04-02-2020 03:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 02:39 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 03:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  As for PPE, well fk me, Obama borrowed the truck and never refilled the gas tank. Trump in his tenure didnt do that either. But Obama had a crapload more time to do it, and considering that he drained it *because* of a pandemic, he *might* have learned its fing value to refill it in his 7 years at that wheel.

The Tea Party controlled the House during the last 6 Obama years. Do you really think the Tea Party had any interest in spending billions to restock the national stockpile of PPE when they were forcing austerity, freezes, debt ceiling crises, and a government shutdown? Because that is truly some magical thinking.

Well Mr Objective Pants, perhaps you should bring up such objective facts on how it is the Tea Party fault. Nice default to point at anyone but a demigod ---

Hey goober,* I have written on multiple occasions that I am perfectly fine allocating some of the fault to Obama for not restocking the PPE supplies in the national stockpile. Really, at least twice and maybe more.

Though it occurs to me that you were probably sarcastically calling yourself "Mr. Objective Pants" since you seem unwilling to acknowledge the obvious fact that Congress has to pass the budget before a president can sign the budget and that the Tea Party-controlled House wasn't passing big budgets in those days. I just don't get who your demigod is.

* My use of "goober" is meant as a gentle gibe, I do not honestly think you are foolish

(04-03-2020 08:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 02:39 AM)mrbig Wrote:  The Tea Party controlled the House during the last 6 Obama years. Do you really think the Tea Party had any interest in spending billions to restock the national stockpile of PPE when they were forcing austerity, freezes, debt ceiling crises, and a government shutdown? Because that is truly some magical thinking.

But you are the one who says the man at the top gets all the blame, that he is the QB, AD, and GM all in one. Now you want to blame Congress? What is the difference? Is this another different ball of wax?

In back-to-back portions of one post, you waffle in an effort to absolve Obama and blame Trump in similar situations.

You are way smarter than this comment. I can't tell whether you are making a serious argument or just poking me with a devil's advocate argument. The difference is that there are some things a President can do without Congress (like invoking the DPA, "reorganizing" the NSC, making other personnel decisions, directing agencies to take or not take certain actions, use of the bully pulpit, etc.) and some things the President can't do without Congress (like passing a budget). So I assign more of the apropos or blame to a President in the first instance and less in the second instance.

(04-03-2020 10:34 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 02:39 AM)mrbig Wrote:  Actually, the issue is that you need 100,000,000 marbles but only have 1,000,000 marbles and now we are giving away 1500 of them.

Actually, the issue is that you FEAR that you MIGHT need 100mm marbles at some point in the relatively near future, but only have 1mm of them now.... and you gate 1500 of them away to the 'source' of that potential need in the hopes that by giving them 1500, you might only need 1mm, rather than 100mm. Meanwhile, you've ramped up production such that by the time you might need the 100mm, the 1500 have long since been replaced.

You guys argue that the administration hasn't been out in front of this, and then complain when they do something designed to get out in front of it. That just reeks of 'Orange Man Bad'.

If your description is correct, then why are people in the hospitals my wife works at and her clinic re-using PPE and using them for way longer than intended? It wasn't based on fear, it was a realistic and most likely projection (hence Azar's $2 billion request). And they haven't all since been replaced or there wouldn't be major shortages in multiple communities across the country.

(04-03-2020 10:34 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 02:39 AM)mrbig Wrote:  The Tea Party controlled the House during the last 6 Obama years. Do you really think the Tea Party had any interest in spending billions to restock the national stockpile of PPE when they were forcing austerity, freezes, debt ceiling crises, and a government shutdown? Because that is truly some magical thinking.

So the buck only stops at the President when it's Trump...
Got it. Orange Man Bad

I just responded to this in a response to OO. But to reiterate, I allocate more apropos and blame to the president when the president can act without congress and less when the president cannot act without congress. The president needs congress to pass a budget, so the blame is shared in this instance. Since I assign some of the blame to Obama and have already said so on multiple occasions and Obama is decidedly not orange, I have no ****!ng idea what you are talking about.

(04-03-2020 08:24 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Seeing articles about dairy farmers dumping milk because of overproduction.

Bring back the government cheese!

Hadn't seen this. Really odd occurance... since there were some runs on it at grocery stores??

(04-03-2020 05:04 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 10:34 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 02:39 AM)mrbig Wrote:  Actually, the issue is that you need 100,000,000 marbles but only have 1,000,000 marbles and now we are giving away 1500 of them.

Actually, the issue is that you FEAR that you MIGHT need 100mm marbles at some point in the relatively near future, but only have 1mm of them now.... and you gate 1500 of them away to the 'source' of that potential need in the hopes that by giving them 1500, you might only need 1mm, rather than 100mm. Meanwhile, you've ramped up production such that by the time you might need the 100mm, the 1500 have long since been replaced.

You guys argue that the administration hasn't been out in front of this, and then complain when they do something designed to get out in front of it. That just reeks of 'Orange Man Bad'.

If your description is correct, then why are people in the hospitals my wife works at and her clinic re-using PPE and using them for way longer than intended? It wasn't based on fear, it was a realistic and most likely projection (hence Azar's $2 billion request). And they haven't all since been replaced or there wouldn't be major shortages in multiple communities across the country.

We're talking about the decision to send PPE to China on Feb 7. As I said, at the time, it was merely 'fear' here and this was clearly an attempt to limit the spread at the source.... 'getting out in front of it.' Since then, the 1500 marbles have easily been replaced.

(04-03-2020 02:39 AM)mrbig Wrote:  I just responded to this in a response to OO. But to reiterate, I allocate more apropos and blame to the president when the president can act without congress and less when the president cannot act without congress. The president needs congress to pass a budget, so the blame is shared in this instance. Since I assign some of the blame to Obama and have already said so on multiple occasions and Obama is decidedly not orange, I have no ****!ng idea what you are talking about.

You placed the blame for CDC budgeted spending under Trump on Trump. You placed blame for stockpile replacement under Obama on the tea party. Okay, 'conservatives' bad.

Democrats controlled both houses in 2009-11, and still held the Senate in 2011-2015... Odd how impotent you seem to think Obama was, not able to get money for PPE despite holding the Oval office and Senate during that time. No leverage whatsoever. In 2019 and 2020, Democrats controlled the House. Why didn't they solve the problem? Seems they were focused elsewhere. Priorities?

(04-03-2020 04:49 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 08:13 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 02:39 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:52 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The issue being presented is that if you have 100,000,000 marbles, you are bitching about the use of 1500 of them.

The number is so relatively low to be utterly inconsequential -- but that is a horrendous Trump mistake. Sounds either really stupid to me, are venality that is beyond measure.

Actually, the issue is that you need 100,000,000 marbles but only have 1,000,000 marbles and now we are giving away 1500 of them. So while it is a bit of a drop in the bucket, some of our people are still going to die without those 1500 marbles. Maybe those people will be in New Orleans or West Texas for all we know.

Labeling a spit in the bucket as horrendous mistake actually is pretty stupid. And amazingly petty. Dig in harder there, big. Remind me to *never* ask you to borrow a cup of sugar. Ever. Feel better there?

Did I really call this a "horrendous mistake" or anything like it? His failure to start using the DPA in this way sooner was, IMHO, one of many mistakes. And frankly a pretty small one compared to some of the others.

(04-02-2020 03:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 02:39 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 03:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  As for PPE, well fk me, Obama borrowed the truck and never refilled the gas tank. Trump in his tenure didnt do that either. But Obama had a crapload more time to do it, and considering that he drained it *because* of a pandemic, he *might* have learned its fing value to refill it in his 7 years at that wheel.

The Tea Party controlled the House during the last 6 Obama years. Do you really think the Tea Party had any interest in spending billions to restock the national stockpile of PPE when they were forcing austerity, freezes, debt ceiling crises, and a government shutdown? Because that is truly some magical thinking.

Well Mr Objective Pants, perhaps you should bring up such objective facts on how it is the Tea Party fault. Nice default to point at anyone but a demigod ---

Hey goober,* I have written on multiple occasions that I am perfectly fine allocating some of the fault to Obama for not restocking the PPE supplies in the national stockpile. Really, at least twice and maybe more.

Though it occurs to me that you were probably sarcastically calling yourself "Mr. Objective Pants" since you seem unwilling to acknowledge the obvious fact that Congress has to pass the budget before a president can sign the budget and that the Tea Party-controlled House wasn't passing big budgets in those days. I just don't get who your demigod is.

* My use of "goober" is meant as a gentle gibe, I do not honestly think you are foolish

There actually hasnt been a real budget since 1996 big. Considering the multitudes of continuing appropriations bills that run into the literally thousands of pages (the means of funding the US currently, by the way), I am gobsmacked that no one from the Administration ever bothered to note this. I mean, you all are the ones railing about the 'bully pulpit power'.

And, quite honestly, any Congress critter could (and did) put in a line item into these monstrosities, and many of them were actually instituted at the behest of a sitting Administration.

I could probably find literally tens of thousands of line items promulgated into the appropriation bills at the behest of the Obama administration even during the time of the evil and vicious Tea Party.

I am really gd sorry that Obama never friggin found it that important to even suggest that in those 6 years, and in the immediate succeeding year after the emptying when the Ds controlled both houses.

But that is one helluva dance move to throw that out there on the Tea Party. Doesnt really jive with the way things actually work in the world, but, a guy must defend the deity and dogma when it is threatened.

Not just a good dance move, one absolutely fantastic classic move coupled with the tossing it completely onto your boogeyman of the Tea Party. Bravo. <clap>

CDC now recommending masks be worn in public gatherings where it's tough to maintain social distancing (so supermarkets, hardware stores, etc.). I'm now wearing them at work - indoors and outdoors. I wish more people were following my lead - maybe half our building is doing the same?

(04-03-2020 02:39 AM)mrbig Wrote:  ...engaging in authoritarian-curious acts either against Congressional actions or against long-standing norms is a whole different ball of wax. To summarize: keep your balls of wax straight.



The Tea Party controlled the House during the last 6 Obama years.

Wasn't the whole "I have a pen and a phone" thing meant to subvert the will of Congress? If not, what was it for?

Big, I think your partisanship is showing. Just pick a scale, and measure everybody against the same scale. Starting now.

Every time we on the right have to point out that Obama or somebody Democratic did the same thing as Trump or somebody Republican, it's because people on your side are employing a double standard.

And denigrating the elected President does not make Biden/Sanders/Cuomo any more palatable as a replacement.

(04-03-2020 05:24 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 08:24 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Seeing articles about dairy farmers dumping milk because of overproduction.

Bring back the government cheese!

Hadn't seen this. Really odd occurance... since there were some runs on it at grocery stores??

Oversupply. Being poured out to try and maintain dairy prices.

Someone mentioned the closing of schools as a major contributor. I hate that food was wasted like that - make that cheese!

Video on the paper trail of the Wuhan Virus laboratory. The WaPo ran a related story today on this as well.

(04-03-2020 10:34 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 01:54 AM)mrbig Wrote:  My memory of that issue is that the CDC was helping China build up its internal capabilities and capacities. Once China got to where it wanted/needed to be, then that specific program ended. Unless I am thinking of something else?

Well my first reaction is, why did you just say 'their capabilities' and not 'their capabilities regarding their National Influenza Surveillance AND RESPONSE system? The partnership was between the CDC and the CNIC (Chinese National Influenza Center)

My second is, 'how did that work'? Looks like we should have done more, huh? One could easily (but like I'm saying here, not demonstrably) argue that we gave them the tools to engage in bio-engineering of viruses like the one that some argue 'escaped'. Maybe if we had kep the program, it wouldn't have escaped? That is PURE speculation and I don't believe it.... but it's got as much support as most of the complaints about Trump. There are budgeted activities directly related to this where funds were cut that in hind-sight, COULD have had an impact on the outcome.

Just so we're clear... The STATED purpose was:

The emergence of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) underscored the importance of influenza detection and response in China. From 2004, the Chinese National Influenza Center (CNIC) and the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (USCDC) initiated Cooperative Agreements to build capacity in influenza surveillance in China.

From 2004 to 2014, CNIC and USCDC collaborated on the following activities: 1) developing human technical expertise in virology and epidemiology in China; 2) developing a comprehensive influenza surveillance system by enhancing influenza-like illness (ILI) reporting and virological characterization; 3) strengthening analysis, utilization and dissemination of surveillance data; and 4) improving early response to influenza viruses with pandemic potential.

emphasis mine

It's important to note that this partnership was in response to SARS, which IS a Coronavirus. I believe it's Covid-2... so even the CDC compared this to the flu, long before they knew it existed.

You're complaining about Trump's slow response, but Obama quite literally ended a program designed to improve early response. Again, not saying it matters because I know those activities continued, but I'm challenging your conclusions that find references to 'cutting funds in China' being a contributor and part of your justification, while you discount monies specifically allocated to China-pandemic prevention in the 2018 budget, and significant cuts to even MORE directly related programs by Obama.

Had this event happened in 2016 rather than 2020 (and it easily could have), the right would be pointing at this (especially because it was started by Bush) as proof of exactly what you're doing. Would it be that simple?

The reality is that the original plan was for a 10 yr program, which surely could (like most other programs) be extended. Rather than extend it, I'm confident that the CDC asked for enough differences that it made sense to do something else.... just as Trump did in 2018.

Again, the point isn't that Trump is perfect or whatever else... it's that you've reached conclusions based on questionable interpretations. Especially during an election year, if there were people in high places in the CDC willing to stake their reputations on Trump's decisions being wrong, you'd be hearing them very vocally. This whole idea that some have that Fauci is just saying whatever Trump wants him to say is ridiculous. Yes, he may temper his statements... i.e. he may be 60% sure of something and Trump goes a different way so he doesn't hammer it.... but that's because he knows that he doesn't KNOW... and I suspect people Fauci respects also disagree with him, but not enough to say 'yes' or 'no'.

I have no earthly idea why you are even talking about this at such length. You admit it was a 10-year program. It ended because it was a 10-year program that achieved its goals. Nothing I read on the subject suggests otherwise. The same isn't true of Trump's cuts, unless you have read something that I haven't. Pretty sure I linked to this earlier, but here is peer-reviewed article in BMC Public Health describing the 10-year collaboration. I think this is the same article you quote from.

Quote:

(04-02-2020 10:33 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  You're calling Trump's response 'not proportional' (of course that's not even a definable number... is Covid twice as bad? 10 times? Is our response twice as much? 10X?) and of course it could easily and likely WILL surpass Swine's numbers.... but we have a long way to go before we've reached those numbers

Long way to go to the 12,000 killed by swine flu? Really? We might be there by the end of this weekend. On 3/23 the USA hit 500 deaths. On 3/25 the USA hit 1000 deaths. On 3/28 the USA hit 2000 deaths. On 3/31 the USA hit 4000 deaths. The number of deaths has been roughly doubling every 3 days. We are at 6000 now and the end of the weekend would get us over 12,000 at the current rate.

Did I measure only by deaths? Note that I used the word 'those' numbers, not 'that' number. If you want to play that game, we can. At least you admit that we're not to the lowest number of comparison yet, and I clearly said we likely will surpass them. I guess we're arguing about the definition of 'nearly'. 4,000 is still not 12,000.... even if we get there in 2 days.

Now to the meat... 60mm were infected with swine... That's a function of the rate of spread of the disease plus our reaction to mitigate it. The goals of 90% of actions dictated by Trump are to mitigate the spread. Certainly you'd admit that this would be the FIRST response, since you said your real complaint was about his INITIAL response.

275,000 were hospitalized. While related (if you impact #1, you impact #2), That's primarily a function of whom the disease attacks and how severe it is. Swine was clearly less severe and had a more general attack profile.

The death rate of the disease is a function of the infection rate of the disease, again, #1 above) the population it attacks, the mortality rate of the disease and the capabilities of our healthcare.

Only one of those inputs to any of those measures is clearly a function of government.... the rest of those are primarily a function of the diseases themselves, researchers or doctors.
[/quote]

I honestly don't know what you are trying to get out of this conversation. H1N1 and Covid-19 are vastly different. The responses have been vastly different (across the globe, mind you). I legitimately do not understand what point you are trying to make and I honestly don't care enough to engage in it further. Please don't respond with 5-10 paragraphs. I don't have time to read them so I'm just skimming if you do.

Man, you have really grabbed onto this issue, and in such a bizarre and strong way.

(04-02-2020 02:52 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The number is so relatively low to be utterly inconsequential -- but that is a horrendous Trump mistake. Sounds either really stupid to me, are venality that is beyond measure.

(04-03-2020 08:13 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Labeling a spit in the bucket as horrendous mistake actually is pretty stupid. And amazingly petty. Dig in harder there, big. Remind me to *never* ask you to borrow a cup of sugar. Ever. Feel better there?

(04-03-2020 12:09 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  So the horrendous outlay of the short tractor trailer load is 1.56% of load capacity of just 3M by itself. That works out to .0468 days output of just 3M, or 1.1 hrs (66 minutes) output of 3M.

3M (guess here) has probably 30% to 35% of the US mfg capability (Kimberly Clark and a number of others I dealt with before come readily to mind). So on a national throughput level we are talking somewhere *well* north of (gasp) 10 mins of national output. Maybe (double gasp) somewhere between 22 mins and 25 mins of national output. The horrors! That is *unthinkable*, bordering on LUNACY!

But somehow this literally less than a half hour of output is a horrendous, ginormous error to some. Got it.

Why do you think it was so horrendous? You are literally the only person here referring to it as such. No need to go back, I searched. And as you can read, you have done so multiple times. Stop trying to put words in my mouth son. All I said was, and I quote:

(03-30-2020 02:03 AM)mrbig Wrote:  A couple news items that have not been specifically discussed here but that I think take the shine off the "the PPE shortage was mostly Obama's fault" argument. I read that DHHS Secretary Azar requested $2 billion to purchase personal protective equipment (PPE) in early February but the White House cut that request by 75%. I also read that the USA sent China 17 tons of PPE in early February. The juxtaposition of the Trump Administration cutting Azar's budget request for PPE while almost simultaneously shipping 17 tons of PPE to China is a bit jarring. While I would normally applaud the desire to help another country with an outbreak, the PPE we sent to China was too late to truly help China and should never have been sent given what was likely developing in the USA by that point, particularly given Azar's request.

(03-30-2020 11:45 AM)mrbig Wrote:  I wouldn't have allowed the USA to ship 17 tons of PPE supplies to China in early February.

(03-31-2020 02:32 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Thank you for the additional information. It doesn't sound like a lot. Still kind of inexplicable that at the same time Azar is asking for more PPE, Pompeo is shipping 17 tons to China.

(04-03-2020 02:16 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 12:54 PM)ausowl Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 11:27 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 09:22 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 09:14 AM)ausowl Wrote:  General Honore on logistics, etc.

Honore interview

Didn't agree with everything he did during Katrina, but an interesting perspective.

Honore obviously doesn't know all of the conversations that have been ongoing in the background of all these organizations.

Side note - Honore has one of the best voices and accents out there.

I suspect Big and I would agree! (Neither of us has that accent, but we are both familiar with it -- and I for one greatly miss it.)

I suspect that anyone who has that accent in their memory greatly misses it! So me too . . . not going down the rabbit hole of what I miss about New Orleans.

That would be a long and hopefully less acrimonious thread!

As long as 69/70/75 didn't crash it by misstating that Blanco issued a "shelter in place" order, which he seems internally compelled to do every time he mentions Hurricane Katrina...

(04-03-2020 05:24 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  We're talking about the decision to send PPE to China on Feb 7. As I said, at the time, it was merely 'fear' here and this was clearly an attempt to limit the spread at the source.... 'getting out in front of it.' Since then, the 1500 marbles have easily been replaced.

You have connections. If the 1500 marbles have easily been replaced, call up some hospitals in NYC, Nola, or some of the other hard-hit areas and ask them if they could use 17 tons of PPE.

As I just wrote to Tanq, for the life of me, I can't figure out why yous guys are so dug in on this. Neither Lad nor I really harped on this. To me, the only thing that made it stand out was that it was happening while Azar was literally requesting $2 billion to spend on the same type of stuff.

(04-03-2020 05:24 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 02:39 AM)mrbig Wrote:  I just responded to this in a response to OO. But to reiterate, I allocate more apropos and blame to the president when the president can act without congress and less when the president cannot act without congress. The president needs congress to pass a budget, so the blame is shared in this instance. Since I assign some of the blame to Obama and have already said so on multiple occasions and Obama is decidedly not orange, I have no ****!ng idea what you are talking about.

You placed the blame for CDC budgeted spending under Trump on Trump. You placed blame for stockpile replacement under Obama on the tea party. Okay, 'conservatives' bad.

I placed the blame for decreases to the CDC budget from Trump's proposed budget proposal that made it through a Republican Senate and a Republican House on Trump because, so far as I could tell, the Senate and House were merely signing off on Trump's request. The same dynamic was not at play during the Obama/Tea Party era. And, as I have written on multiple occasions, I am perfectly happy and willing to assign some of the blame to Obama. WTF dude, I keep writing this and you keep ignoring it.

(04-02-2020 03:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  As for PPE, well fk me, Obama borrowed the truck and never refilled the gas tank. Trump in his tenure didnt do that either. But Obama had a crapload more time to do it, and considering that he drained it *because* of a pandemic, he *might* have learned its fing value to refill it in his 7 years at that wheel.

(04-02-2020 03:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I am really gd sorry that Obama never friggin found it that important to even suggest that in those 6 years, and in the immediate succeeding year after the emptying when the Ds controlled both houses.

But that is one helluva dance move to throw that out there on the Tea Party. Doesnt really jive with the way things actually work in the world, but, a guy must defend the deity and dogma when it is threatened.

Not just a good dance move, one absolutely fantastic classic move coupled with the tossing it completely onto your boogeyman of the Tea Party. Bravo. <clap>

Perhaps you didn't click on the links in one of my previous posts? I didn't really feel like digging into the details because I am OK assigning some blame to Obama and letting you all have your little ODS party on this. Here was my earlier post.

(03-31-2020 10:45 AM)mrbig Wrote:  Hey, I am for more government spending on PPE as the next liberal. But blaming Obama for not getting more PPE to restock the national stockpile at the same time the Tea Party was sweeping into control of the House for the remainder of the Obama presidency and amidst the debt-ceiling "crisis", conservative-imposed austerity measures, and frequent continuing resolutions seems silly to me. I don't think Obama is blameless, but he couldn't restock the paper supplies in my office without congressional approval and the tea party republicans weren't exactly into government spending.

And for Hambone (or anyone else interested), here are the 2010 (pages 387-391), 2011 (293-294 and 391), and 2012 CDC (pages 253-254) budget justifications to Congress. All discuss the strategic national stockpile. The 2010 justification was pre-H1N1. The 2011 justification was during H1N1 and included a supplemental note on page 391 from the Senate committee noting that the administration should seek input from experts on restocking the strategic national reserve due to drawdowns from H1N1.

To clarify the timeline from these links:

• The FY2010 budget with congressional justifications (which would fund the government from October 2009 - September 2010) was submitted to Congress in February 2009, before the H1N1 outbreak started in the USA.
• The H1N1 outbreak was from April 2009 - April 2010.
• The FY2011 budget with congressional justifications (which would fund the government from October 2010 - September 2011) was submitted to Congress in February 2010. This was towards the end of the H1N1 outbreak. This budget included a note in the Senate committee noting that the Obama administration should seek expert input on restocking the strategic national stockpile.
• The Tea Party lead House was sworn into congress in January 2011.
• The FY 2012 budget with congressional justifications (which would fund the government from October 2011 - September 2012) was submitted to Congress in February 2011.
  

If you feel like digging through those budgets, along with the budgets that actually passed along with the CR's and the H1N1-specific requests, have at it. You can draw your own conclusions. Frankly, I don't care to do so because I have already said that I am perfectly fine allocating fault to President Obama and Congress. USA Today's fact checker weighed in for Obama's part.

Interestingly, I mentioned the Tea Party influence based on common sense and did not do any research. Low-and-behold, an article from Propublica on 4/3/20 on the topic! How Tea Party Budget Battles Left the National Emergency Medical Stockpile Unprepared for Coronavirus

More food for thought, Obama requested $1.5 billion in funding to battle H1N1 when there were only 65 confirmed cases in the USA.

(04-03-2020 07:16 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Big, I think your partisanship is showing. Just pick a scale, and measure everybody against the same scale. Starting now.

Every time we on the right have to point out that Obama or somebody Democratic did the same thing as Trump or somebody Republican, it's because people on your side are employing a double standard.

And denigrating the elected President does not make Biden/Sanders/Cuomo any more palatable as a replacement.

I never graded Obama on his H1N1 response because it isn't something I researched. So I'm not sure how my partisanship is showing when I haven't even graded they guy. I don't have nearly enough information to grade him and I have zero interest in doing the research at this point just to satisfy you all. I have repeatedly said that I agree he shares some of the blame for the PPE supplies in the national stockpile being low. Not sure where I am using a double-standard when I have written very little positive or negative about Obama's response to H1N1 or ebola. You conservatives are the ones who keep dragging him into this. Obama Derangement Syndrome at its finest.

(04-04-2020 03:29 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(04-03-2020 07:16 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Big, I think your partisanship is showing. Just pick a scale, and measure everybody against the same scale. Starting now.

Every time we on the right have to point out that Obama or somebody Democratic did the same thing as Trump or somebody Republican, it's because people on your side are employing a double standard.

And denigrating the elected President does not make Biden/Sanders/Cuomo any more palatable as a replacement.

I never graded Obama on his H1N1 response because it isn't something I researched. So I'm not sure how my partisanship is showing when I haven't even graded they guy. I don't have nearly enough information to grade him and I have zero interest in doing the research at this point just to satisfy you all. I have repeatedly said that I agree he shares some of the blame for the PPE supplies in the national stockpile being low. Not sure where I am using a double-standard when I have written very little positive or negative about Obama's response to H1N1 or ebola. You conservatives are the ones who keep dragging him into this. Obama Derangement Syndrome at its finest.

Some mighty fine tap dancing there.

(04-04-2020 03:05 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-04-2020 03:35 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Some mighty fine tap dancing there.

Whatever dude. I have barely offered any opinions on Obama's handling of H1N1 or ebola. I freely admit that I have barely done any research on either. The conservatives here seem hell-bent on discussing Obama, so go ahead. If we all give Obama a grade of F on both his H1N1 response and his ebola resposne, I have some interesting news for you. That doesn't affect Trump's grade because they are completely separate responses to vastly different diseases. I find it interesting that as it becomes harder and harder to defend Trump's response, you are all defaulting to discussing and knocking Obama.

Can we crate a whole new thread where we debate the response of the Obama administration to the decade-plus old H1N1 outbreak? It would be nice to compile all those lines of conversation there.

Similar to Big, I don’t know nearly enough about that response because I was at Rice at the time and the university didn’t shut itself down, so I went living life like the blissfully ignorant 19 to 20 year old college student I was at the time. I was far more interested in Pub, classes, girls, and college athletics than what the current administration was do, or the severity of the virus, because well, see list above.

(04-04-2020 03:44 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(04-04-2020 03:05 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-04-2020 03:35 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Some mighty fine tap dancing there.

Whatever dude. I have barely offered any opinions on Obama's handling of H1N1 or ebola. I freely admit that I have barely done any research on either. The conservatives here seem hell-bent on discussing Obama, so go ahead. If we all give Obama a grade of F on both his H1N1 response and his ebola resposne, I have some interesting news for you. That doesn't affect Trump's grade because they are completely separate responses to vastly different diseases. I find it interesting that as it becomes harder and harder to defend Trump's response, you are all defaulting to discussing and knocking Obama.

Dude? I thought I was the rural guy, you were the city guy. Whatever. Mind if I call you Kid?

here is the way it works:

A; You throw shade at Trump
B: We point out that Obama did the same or similar
c: You tap dance around the comparison, doing your best John Belushi impression, saying "but that it is something completely different".

Kid, you messed up in post 1933, where you said something was Trump's fault because he's the guy at the top, and in the very next paragraph, you excused Obama because he had some big meanies in Congress. (paraphrasing) You have been arguing this double standard, but that time you put the arguments side by side, so even a dumb dude like me could see it. Busted. Since then you have been tap dancing around it, but we see it even if you don't.

Yeah, we bring up Obama, to point out that you are using a standard for Trump you do not use for anybody else, the most recent Democrat being the best example. Then you go and prove you are not using the same standard with your arguments.

When we did not like what Obama did, you guys did not call it Obama Derangement Syndrome. You guys called it racism and us racists. But if you want to discuss ODS vs. TDS, you will have to point out the Obama-Russia investigation, the attacks on associates of O, the push for a 25th Amendment coup, the impeachment, and so forth. It is like you are are comparing a fire in your fireplace(ODS) to a California wildfire(TDS). Of course, it may not seem odd to you that in the midst of this crisis, when people from left and right are calling for unity, Pelosi is setting the groundwork for yet another investigation. It seems to me she is concentrating on her main job - getting rid of Trump, even if at the expense of the American people in this crisis.

OK, I am going to stop calling you Kid now. You may feel free to stop calling me dude. Your Dudeness or The Dude would be preferable. At least capitalize it. (If this humor also escapes you, watch The Big Lebowski.)

Duderino

#5 seems appropriate here

By "here", I mean in this forum.