What *could* work is another joint-G5 bowl bid or two to try to get better *P5* opponents for Boise and Appalachian State.

But, which G5 conference is going to back off their best bowl contracts to help the Sun Belt or MAC?

May be the CUSA, MAC and Sun Belt could join together for a joint bowl bid against a mid-level P5 opponent.

(02-18-2020 11:33 PM)Crayton Wrote:  Here is an idea to hold a G5 championship game the first weekend of December within the current rules.

Participating G5 conferences would have to schedule all cross-division games the final weekend of the regular season. The division leaders at that time would be paired, requiring some matchups to be altered on a week's notice; no game locations or dates would be changed.

This matchup between division-leaders would qualify for the 13th game exemption and not count toward either teams' 12 game limit. The following week (when CCG are traditionally held), the 2 best winners could be paired (on campus or at a neutral site) in a G5-Championship, which would qualify as 1 of those teams' 12 regular season games.

With 1 fewer cross-divsion game prior to the CCGs, rematches (such as Cincy-Memphis and App St-Louisiana) would be less common. While I keep using the phrase "G5", we all know the American would not participate; it'd essentially be a G4 ploy to compete with the American for that lone NY6 spot.

December 7, 2019 games:
#16 Memphis (11-1) vs. #21 Cincinnati (10-2)
#19 Boise St (11-1) vs. #20 App St (11-1)

Theoretically, FAU, Miami(OH), and any of the CCG losers could be paired in games on this date as well. The MAC could keep their date at Ford Field and invite another G4 division champ to play in a quasi-bowl game. Or, some deep south venue may bid to match a SB and CUSA team (Louisiana vs. UAB?) in a quasi-bowl of their own.

No G5 championship but i would like to see the 4 G5 champs left out of the NY6 to be paired off in upper level bowl games.

Say the AAC gets the NY6 bowl then match up the #2 G5 champ vs the #5 G5 champ and the 3 vs 4.

(02-19-2020 05:52 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 11:33 PM)Crayton Wrote:  Here is an idea to hold a G5 championship game the first weekend of December within the current rules.

Participating G5 conferences would have to schedule all cross-division games the final weekend of the regular season. The division leaders at that time would be paired, requiring some matchups to be altered on a week's notice; no game locations or dates would be changed.

This matchup between division-leaders would qualify for the 13th game exemption and not count toward either teams' 12 game limit. The following week (when CCG are traditionally held), the 2 best winners could be paired (on campus or at a neutral site) in a G5-Championship, which would qualify as 1 of those teams' 12 regular season games.

With 1 fewer cross-divsion game prior to the CCGs, rematches (such as Cincy-Memphis and App St-Louisiana) would be less common. While I keep using the phrase "G5", we all know the American would not participate; it'd essentially be a G4 ploy to compete with the American for that lone NY6 spot.

December 7, 2019 games:
#16 Memphis (11-1) vs. #21 Cincinnati (10-2)
#19 Boise St (11-1) vs. #20 App St (11-1)

Theoretically, FAU, Miami(OH), and any of the CCG losers could be paired in games on this date as well. The MAC could keep their date at Ford Field and invite another G4 division champ to play in a quasi-bowl game. Or, some deep south venue may bid to match a SB and CUSA team (Louisiana vs. UAB?) in a quasi-bowl of their own.

No G5 championship but i would like to see the 4 G5 champs left out of the NY6 to be paired off in upper level bowl games.

Say the AAC gets the NY6 bowl then match up the #2 G5 champ vs the #5 G5 champ and the 3 vs 4.

This is an excellent idea. I doubt it happens---but its a great thought. Ideally---it would be nice if the every conference champion had a significant bowl vs a ranked opponent. That would go a long way toward making every conference race important.

(02-19-2020 05:31 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 05:19 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Tell ya what.

Let's not have a G5 championship.

I'll offer you an alternative.

WELCOME TO THE NY7

Stick it on ESPN2 or FS1 if you have to but pit two G5's in a bowl on New Year's Day. Ideally you take the two highest rated unselected champs. This year would have been #19 Boise State vs. #20 Appalachian State. But if you only have two available that are ranked and one isn't a champ, pit them as long they aren't rematching which would have been the case in 2018 when Fresno and Boise were the only remaining ranked G5's. In 2018 you would have had to reach down for an unranked champion, most likely Appalachian State. But let's say last year Cincinnati as AAC runner-up had been higher ranked than one or both of App and Boise State, we would take the higher ranked Bearcats to face the highest ranked non-champ, but in case would an unranked runner-up bump a champion.

The reality is that #19 Boise State would PREFER to play unranked and 7-5 Washington in the Las Vegas Bowl.

Cincinnati would PREFER to play Boston College. Louisiana Tech would PREFER to play Miami. EMU would rather play Pitt. Temple would rather play North Carolina. Navy would rather play Kansas State Air Force would rather play Washington State.

This ultimately creates a major problem, no matter which route a team/conference choose, its left on the outside looking in. for those Boise/App St./Cincinnati type of teams, playing a 6 or 7 win team from the A5 gains no respect towards truly competing for entry into the CFP. it is good for national marketing of the school and program which is what admins want, but again does not get any closer to having equal access.

(02-19-2020 07:53 PM)balanced_view Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 05:31 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 05:19 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Tell ya what.

Let's not have a G5 championship.

I'll offer you an alternative.

WELCOME TO THE NY7

Stick it on ESPN2 or FS1 if you have to but pit two G5's in a bowl on New Year's Day. Ideally you take the two highest rated unselected champs. This year would have been #19 Boise State vs. #20 Appalachian State. But if you only have two available that are ranked and one isn't a champ, pit them as long they aren't rematching which would have been the case in 2018 when Fresno and Boise were the only remaining ranked G5's. In 2018 you would have had to reach down for an unranked champion, most likely Appalachian State. But let's say last year Cincinnati as AAC runner-up had been higher ranked than one or both of App and Boise State, we would take the higher ranked Bearcats to face the highest ranked non-champ, but in case would an unranked runner-up bump a champion.

The reality is that #19 Boise State would PREFER to play unranked and 7-5 Washington in the Las Vegas Bowl.

Cincinnati would PREFER to play Boston College. Louisiana Tech would PREFER to play Miami. EMU would rather play Pitt. Temple would rather play North Carolina. Navy would rather play Kansas State Air Force would rather play Washington State.

This ultimately creates a major problem, no matter which route a team/conference choose, its left on the outside looking in. for those Boise/App St./Cincinnati type of teams, playing a 6 or 7 win team from the A5 gains no respect towards truly competing for entry into the CFP. it is good for national marketing of the school and program which is what admins want, but again does not get any closer to having equal access.

Well, let's face it, athletics purportedly exists not to win championships but to market the school. Winning championships is only important if it helps market the school. It certainly can, but if you can achieve that by beating a 6-6 Washington State team, that works too.

(02-19-2020 08:36 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 01:20 AM)ECUPirated Wrote:  There is no such thing as the G5!!!

There is DIVISION I FBS FOOTBALL!!!

There is no "P5" or "G5", but there is an "A5", an "Autonomy 5", and thus a corresponding "Non-Autonomy 5".

P5 and G5 are just the media shorthand for those terms, so in reality, there is a G5 and P5.

Correct. I always refer to them as the A5.

(02-19-2020 03:48 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  Why would the G5 want this?

Unless TV Networks are just going to offer up like $10 million per conference (they wont) there isn't much incentive for the G5 to go along

I hope you are right.

OT. Saw that the NFL was expanding their playoff for more money. Will ESPiN have the money to do the same with a "G5" playoff as far as money. Suckers say yes.

I don’t think we’ll ever see a G5 championship, but if we did, it should be a “+1” model. Let everyone get their best bowl matchups, let them try to get into the playoffs, and then let the best two left play an extra game for some bragging rights.

It would probably be better for the G5 if you still include the P5. Could you do this same game and include all conference champs that don’t qualify for the playoff?

Absolutely no.

(02-20-2020 05:36 AM)sierrajip Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 08:36 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 01:20 AM)ECUPirated Wrote:  There is no such thing as the G5!!!

There is DIVISION I FBS FOOTBALL!!!

There is no "P5" or "G5", but there is an "A5", an "Autonomy 5", and thus a corresponding "Non-Autonomy 5".

P5 and G5 are just the media shorthand for those terms, so in reality, there is a G5 and P5.

Correct. I always refer to them as the A5holes.

FIFY

USFFan

(02-20-2020 05:53 AM)sierrajip Wrote:  OT. Saw that the NFL was expanding their playoff for more money. Will ESPiN have the money to do the same with a "G5" playoff as far as money. Suckers say yes.

Greed is getting in the way with perfection on that one.

17 games and only 1 post season bye stinks.

No, there should not be a "G5 Championship." Separating yourself in that way would show that you don't think you belong at the same level as the P5. Instead, the teams in the G5/non-A5/conferences that have "traditionally been left out of the playoff" should instead look to have two teams included in the 8 team playoff, if and when the playoff expands. So you would argue that it would be the five P5 conference champs, the top two G5 champs (whether you use ranking or some other metric), and then an eighth "wild card" team. Using 2019 as sample data, you would get a playoff consisting of:

Clemson (P5 champ)
Ohio State (P5 champ)
Oklahoma (P5 champ)
LSU (P5 champ)
Oregon (P5 champ)
Memphis (G5 champ)
Boise St (G5 champ)*
Georgia (WC)*

* Boise State might be replaced as G5 #2 with App State depending on the tie-breaker used; same with Georgia and Utah for the Wild Card.

(02-19-2020 05:19 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Tell ya what.

Let's not have a G5 championship.

I'll offer you an alternative.

WELCOME TO THE NY7

Stick it on ESPN2 or FS1 if you have to but pit two G5's in a bowl on New Year's Day. Ideally you take the two highest rated unselected champs. This year would have been #19 Boise State vs. #20 Appalachian State. But if you only have two available that are ranked and one isn't a champ, pit them as long they aren't rematching which would have been the case in 2018 when Fresno and Boise were the only remaining ranked G5's.

Could be a nice offering to the gods of the Sun Bowl.

Let's say if the deal was the 2 highest ranked non NYD G5 teams regardless if champ. This way the AAC could buy in to this with an opportunity for its #2 team. Also a nice place for a MAC/CUSA team should they go undefeated and not qualify for the CFP bowl.

(02-20-2020 11:14 AM)AssyrianDuke Wrote:  No, there should not be a "G5 Championship." Separating yourself in that way would show that you don't think you belong at the same level as the P5.

Since you mention an expanded 8-team playoff, I think there's a way to have a G5 championship that does provide a P5-level reason for it - to make an expanded playoffs. E.g., there could be playoffs among the G5 champs with the winner advancing to the 8-team playoff. That way, the G5 rep in the playoffs really would have proven to be the G5 champ, rather than being selected by a committee. It would thus give every G5 team an actual on the field path to that playoff.

(02-20-2020 11:14 AM)AssyrianDuke Wrote:  No, there should not be a "G5 Championship." Separating yourself in that way would show that you don't think you belong at the same level as the P5. Instead, the teams in the G5/non-A5/conferences that have "traditionally been left out of the playoff" should instead look to have two teams included in the 8 team playoff, if and when the playoff expands. So you would argue that it would be the five P5 conference champs, the top two G5 champs (whether you use ranking or some other metric), and then an eighth "wild card" team. Using 2019 as sample data, you would get a playoff consisting of:

Clemson (P5 champ)
Ohio State (P5 champ)
Oklahoma (P5 champ)
LSU (P5 champ)
Oregon (P5 champ)
Memphis (G5 champ)
Boise St (G5 champ)*
Georgia (WC)*

* Boise State might be replaced as G5 #2 with App State depending on the tie-breaker used; same with Georgia and Utah for the Wild Card.

Take the conference champ from the ACC, SEC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 12 & AAC & 2 at large. 1-6 seeding for conference champs is determined by the conferences total OOC record with a minimum of 2 P6 OOC games, FCS games don't count towards the total. The other 4 conferences have shown and said that they're content with the current power structure so they wont mind.

(02-20-2020 11:43 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 11:14 AM)AssyrianDuke Wrote:  No, there should not be a "G5 Championship." Separating yourself in that way would show that you don't think you belong at the same level as the P5.

Since you mention an expanded 8-team playoff, I think there's a way to have a G5 championship that does provide a P5-level reason for it - to make an expanded playoffs. E.g., there could be playoffs among the G5 champs with the winner advancing to the 8-team playoff. That way, the G5 rep in the playoffs really would have proven to be the G5 champ, rather than being selected by a committee. It would thus give every G5 team an actual on the field path to that playoff.

I like the play-in game concept. They should also include a Wild Card play-in game.

So, in mid-December:

PLAY-IN ROUND
8-seed game: Boise State @ Memphis
7-seed game: Florida @ Baylor
5-seed game: Wisconsin @ Georgia

CFP QUARTERFINALS
Sugar Bowl: (1)LSU v. 8-seed winner
Rose Bowl: (2)Ohio St. v. 7-seed winner
Orange Bowl (3)Clemson v. (6)Oregon
Cotton Bowl: (4)Oklahoma v. 5-seed winner

(02-19-2020 05:19 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 01:20 AM)ECUPirated Wrote:  There is no such thing as the G5!!!

There is DIVISION I FBS FOOTBALL!!!

5 Conferences may never sniff a playoff spot, but all those teams are still DIVISION I FBS !!

PERIOD

It's not just perception.

The "Group of Five" is literally a defined *contractual term* in the CFP contract. The highest ranking champion among the five champions of those five "Group of Five" conferences gets then NY6 bid to the Fiesta, Peach or Cotton Bowl. No other Division I schools are involved in this "Group of Five" bowl selection process.

The "Group of Five" is literally defined as the AAC, CUSA, MAC, MWC and Sun Belt conferences. It does not include any school from the SEC, the Big Ten, the ACC, the Big 12, or the PAC 12 and does not include Notre Dame, BYU, Army, NMSU, UMass, UConn or Liberty and involves no schools from the FCS ranks.

G5 is shorthand for "Group of Five."

The five "Autonomy" conference literally have their own voting structure within the formal NCAA organization and significant rights not available to any other Division I schools. The Autonomy conferences are very literally the SEC, the Big Ten, THe PAC 12, the Big 12, the ACC and Notre Dame. The G5 can follow the rules and processes implemented by the Autonomy conferences, but they do not have the same voting rights and do not have an equal seat at the Autonomy governing table.

P5 is the shorthand for the "Autonomy" conferences, including Notre Dame.

So, yes, there literally are G5 and P5 conferences, legally and structurally. It's not just perception.

And, not coincidentally, it is only the P5 conference that each have a *signed contract* with one of the NY6 bowl games - even Notre Dame. And, it's no coincidence that their media payouts are multiple times larger than any other non-P5 school or conference.

I'm going to nitpick here...

Where CFP documents discuss the NewYears 6 or NY6 bowls - Rose, Sugar, Orange, Cotton, Fiesta, and Peach - they describe the first three as contract bowls and discuss the contract bowl conferences and their champions' placement/replacement. THEN there is the provision for a slot for the highest ranked champion of one of the conferences which do not have a contract.
So yes the words "group" and "of" and "five" do appear in that order. But they are not capitalized or otherwise emphasized or set off.
Media grabbed onto the words "the group of five conferences without contracts" and turned it into Group of Five / G5 and then invented Power Five / P5.

CFP's definition, though, is contract-bowl-conferences and non-contract-bowl conferences. So rather than the fact it's not a coincidence, I'd say it's a chicken-egg discussion: in a CFP context, the "power" is derived from having the contract.

Sidebar, agree that Notre Dame is included in any capture of "power" by being included in the Orange Bowl contract, but moreover has presence in governance structure that none of the other independents have.

While I opened that I was nitpicking, I'm now standing by for Captain Obvious gifs

(02-20-2020 07:56 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 05:19 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 01:20 AM)ECUPirated Wrote:  There is no such thing as the G5!!!

There is DIVISION I FBS FOOTBALL!!!

5 Conferences may never sniff a playoff spot, but all those teams are still DIVISION I FBS !!

PERIOD

It's not just perception.

The "Group of Five" is literally a defined *contractual term* in the CFP contract. The highest ranking champion among the five champions of those five "Group of Five" conferences gets then NY6 bid to the Fiesta, Peach or Cotton Bowl. No other Division I schools are involved in this "Group of Five" bowl selection process.

The "Group of Five" is literally defined as the AAC, CUSA, MAC, MWC and Sun Belt conferences. It does not include any school from the SEC, the Big Ten, the ACC, the Big 12, or the PAC 12 and does not include Notre Dame, BYU, Army, NMSU, UMass, UConn or Liberty and involves no schools from the FCS ranks.

G5 is shorthand for "Group of Five."

The five "Autonomy" conference literally have their own voting structure within the formal NCAA organization and significant rights not available to any other Division I schools. The Autonomy conferences are very literally the SEC, the Big Ten, THe PAC 12, the Big 12, the ACC and Notre Dame. The G5 can follow the rules and processes implemented by the Autonomy conferences, but they do not have the same voting rights and do not have an equal seat at the Autonomy governing table.

P5 is the shorthand for the "Autonomy" conferences, including Notre Dame.

So, yes, there literally are G5 and P5 conferences, legally and structurally. It's not just perception.

And, not coincidentally, it is only the P5 conference that each have a *signed contract* with one of the NY6 bowl games - even Notre Dame. And, it's no coincidence that their media payouts are multiple times larger than any other non-P5 school or conference.

I'm going to nitpick here...

Where CFP documents discuss the NewYears 6 or NY6 bowls - Rose, Sugar, Orange, Cotton, Fiesta, and Peach - they describe the first three as contract bowls and discuss the contract bowl conferences and their champions' placement/replacement. THEN there is the provision for a slot for the highest ranked champion of one of the conferences which do not have a contract.
So yes the words "group" and "of" and "five" do appear in that order. But they are not capitalized or otherwise emphasized or set off.
Media grabbed onto the words "the group of five conferences without contracts" and turned it into Group of Five / G5 and then invented Power Five / P5.

CFP's definition, though, is contract-bowl-conferences and non-contract-bowl conferences. So rather than the fact it's not a coincidence, I'd say it's a chicken-egg discussion: in a CFP context, the "power" is derived from having the contract.

Sidebar, agree that Notre Dame is included in any capture of "power" by being included in the Orange Bowl contract, but moreover has presence in governance structure that none of the other independents have.

While I opened that I was nitpicking, I'm now standing by for Captain Obvious gifs

First time I heard it was an interview with Benson during early negotiations for the new CFP. Im paraphrasing---but his quote was something like "Its similar to how it is now with 5 AQ conferences and a group of five conferences that arent AQ."

(02-20-2020 08:54 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 07:56 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 05:19 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 01:20 AM)ECUPirated Wrote:  There is no such thing as the G5!!!

There is DIVISION I FBS FOOTBALL!!!

5 Conferences may never sniff a playoff spot, but all those teams are still DIVISION I FBS !!

PERIOD

It's not just perception.

The "Group of Five" is literally a defined *contractual term* in the CFP contract. The highest ranking champion among the five champions of those five "Group of Five" conferences gets then NY6 bid to the Fiesta, Peach or Cotton Bowl. No other Division I schools are involved in this "Group of Five" bowl selection process.

The "Group of Five" is literally defined as the AAC, CUSA, MAC, MWC and Sun Belt conferences. It does not include any school from the SEC, the Big Ten, the ACC, the Big 12, or the PAC 12 and does not include Notre Dame, BYU, Army, NMSU, UMass, UConn or Liberty and involves no schools from the FCS ranks.

G5 is shorthand for "Group of Five."

The five "Autonomy" conference literally have their own voting structure within the formal NCAA organization and significant rights not available to any other Division I schools. The Autonomy conferences are very literally the SEC, the Big Ten, THe PAC 12, the Big 12, the ACC and Notre Dame. The G5 can follow the rules and processes implemented by the Autonomy conferences, but they do not have the same voting rights and do not have an equal seat at the Autonomy governing table.

P5 is the shorthand for the "Autonomy" conferences, including Notre Dame.

So, yes, there literally are G5 and P5 conferences, legally and structurally. It's not just perception.

And, not coincidentally, it is only the P5 conference that each have a *signed contract* with one of the NY6 bowl games - even Notre Dame. And, it's no coincidence that their media payouts are multiple times larger than any other non-P5 school or conference.

I'm going to nitpick here...

Where CFP documents discuss the NewYears 6 or NY6 bowls - Rose, Sugar, Orange, Cotton, Fiesta, and Peach - they describe the first three as contract bowls and discuss the contract bowl conferences and their champions' placement/replacement. THEN there is the provision for a slot for the highest ranked champion of one of the conferences which do not have a contract.
So yes the words "group" and "of" and "five" do appear in that order. But they are not capitalized or otherwise emphasized or set off.
Media grabbed onto the words "the group of five conferences without contracts" and turned it into Group of Five / G5 and then invented Power Five / P5.

CFP's definition, though, is contract-bowl-conferences and non-contract-bowl conferences. So rather than the fact it's not a coincidence, I'd say it's a chicken-egg discussion: in a CFP context, the "power" is derived from having the contract.

Sidebar, agree that Notre Dame is included in any capture of "power" by being included in the Orange Bowl contract, but moreover has presence in governance structure that none of the other independents have.

While I opened that I was nitpicking, I'm now standing by for Captain Obvious gifs

First time I heard it was an interview with Benson during early negotiations for the new CFP. Im paraphrasing---but his quote was something like "Its similar to how it is now with 5 AQ conferences and a group of five conferences that arent AQ."

And when the CFP was being negotiated, there were SIX auto-qual conferences in the BCS construct...