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82hawk Offline
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Basketball roster comparison
Saw a post talking about the overall talent level in the CAA being down, and the discussion got into the rosters under Keatts as being one of the best in the past five years. Got me thinking about the players Keatts brought in and just how good they were. Also got me thinking about the roster we have now.

2015-2016 Flemmings, Ingram, Ponder, Bryce, Talley, Gettys, Sherwood, Bryan, Ogbodo, Cacok

Flemmings 16.2 ppg, Ingram 12.7 ppg, Ponder 11.4 ppg, Bryce 10.1 ppg, Talley 8.5 ppg

2016-2017 Bryce, Flemmings, Ingram, Cacok, Mosely, Talley, Bryan, Ogbodo, Jaquel Richmond, Fornes

Bryce 17.4 ppg, Flemmings 15.8 ppg, Ingram 14.6 ppg, Cacok 12.2 ppg, Mosley8.2 ppg, Talley 7.6 ppg.


Right now, we have two players averaging double figures. Sims 12.8 ppg and Gadsden 10.3 ppg.

Q: Which players on our roster now would have started during those two years?

Q: Which players on our roster would have even gotten playing time?

Don't forget. Talley was our backup PG 2016-2017.

I would also say the players under Keatts his past two years may have been the most talent we've had on any team in the history of UNCW and certainly one of the top 5 rosters in the past 15 years in the CAA.
(This post was last modified: 02-18-2020 09:29 PM by 82hawk.)
02-18-2020 09:20 PM
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82hawk Offline
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
I see nobody is willing to bite.

It's a simple question and points to how hard it is to win with this roster regardless of the coach. I'm afraid picking up a few big men won't be enough unless some of these players find an offensive game they currently don't have.
02-19-2020 02:45 PM
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Seahawkhoops Online
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 02:45 PM)82hawk Wrote:  I see nobody is willing to bite.

It's a simple question and points to how hard it is to win with this roster regardless of the coach. I'm afraid picking up a few big men won't be enough unless some of these players find an offensive game they currently don't have.

We certainly don't have the talent we had then, but neither do a lot of the other schools. As pointed out on the other thread, the drop off in talent the last few years is noticeable.

Looking at that last team, no one on the current roster would likely start. But Linson, Shy, Ty, would make that squad, and Sims, Dodd you could argue for as well.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2020 02:57 PM by Seahawkhoops.)
02-19-2020 02:53 PM
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Gary Miller Online
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 02:45 PM)82hawk Wrote:  I see nobody is willing to bite.

It's a simple question and points to how hard it is to win with this roster regardless of the coach. I'm afraid picking up a few big men won't be enough unless some of these players find an offensive game they currently don't have.

If getting a big added to what we already have isn't going to be enough. What's the point of Burke getting the job? Burke's best card during the interview process is that he can keep what we already have and add 3 pieces. I have faith that this team if kept intact will be very solid next season... We have a lot of young pieces that are only going to get better not to mention a healthy Gadsden for the basically the first time ever in his UNCW career. The talent is there, we just don't have all the pieces. Not to mention you're comparing them to two of the best CAA teams since realignment.
02-19-2020 03:02 PM
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Seahawkhoops Online
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 03:02 PM)Gary Miller Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 02:45 PM)82hawk Wrote:  I see nobody is willing to bite.

It's a simple question and points to how hard it is to win with this roster regardless of the coach. I'm afraid picking up a few big men won't be enough unless some of these players find an offensive game they currently don't have.

If getting a big added to what we already have isn't going to be enough. What's the point of Burke getting the job? Burke's best card during the interview process is that he can keep what we already have and add 3 pieces. I have faith that this team if kept intact will be very solid next season... We have a lot of young pieces that are only going to get better not to mention a healthy Gadsden for the basically the first time ever in his UNCW career. The talent is there, we just don't have all the pieces. Not to mention you're comparing them to two of the best CAA teams since realignment.
Essentially comparing this years Golden State team to the team that won multiple titles :). Also spot on with your point about Burke.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2020 03:07 PM by Seahawkhoops.)
02-19-2020 03:07 PM
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Gary Miller Online
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 03:07 PM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 03:02 PM)Gary Miller Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 02:45 PM)82hawk Wrote:  I see nobody is willing to bite.

It's a simple question and points to how hard it is to win with this roster regardless of the coach. I'm afraid picking up a few big men won't be enough unless some of these players find an offensive game they currently don't have.

If getting a big added to what we already have isn't going to be enough. What's the point of Burke getting the job? Burke's best card during the interview process is that he can keep what we already have and add 3 pieces. I have faith that this team if kept intact will be very solid next season... We have a lot of young pieces that are only going to get better not to mention a healthy Gadsden for the basically the first time ever in his UNCW career. The talent is there, we just don't have all the pieces. Not to mention you're comparing them to two of the best CAA teams since realignment.
Essentially comparing this years Golden State team to the team that won multiple titles :). Also spot on with your point about Burke.

Oh man, comparing us to this years Golden State team hurts... With 82 being a staunch Burke for HC supporter, I'm interested to hear his answer.
02-19-2020 03:12 PM
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Seahawkhoops Online
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 03:12 PM)Gary Miller Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 03:07 PM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 03:02 PM)Gary Miller Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 02:45 PM)82hawk Wrote:  I see nobody is willing to bite.

It's a simple question and points to how hard it is to win with this roster regardless of the coach. I'm afraid picking up a few big men won't be enough unless some of these players find an offensive game they currently don't have.

If getting a big added to what we already have isn't going to be enough. What's the point of Burke getting the job? Burke's best card during the interview process is that he can keep what we already have and add 3 pieces. I have faith that this team if kept intact will be very solid next season... We have a lot of young pieces that are only going to get better not to mention a healthy Gadsden for the basically the first time ever in his UNCW career. The talent is there, we just don't have all the pieces. Not to mention you're comparing them to two of the best CAA teams since realignment.
Essentially comparing this years Golden State team to the team that won multiple titles :). Also spot on with your point about Burke.

Oh man, comparing us to this years Golden State team hurts... With 82 being a staunch Burke for HC supporter, I'm interested to hear his answer.
You get my point. We were on track to be historically bad. Those teams we are comparing them too were historically good.
02-19-2020 03:15 PM
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Gary Miller Online
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 03:15 PM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 03:12 PM)Gary Miller Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 03:07 PM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 03:02 PM)Gary Miller Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 02:45 PM)82hawk Wrote:  I see nobody is willing to bite.

It's a simple question and points to how hard it is to win with this roster regardless of the coach. I'm afraid picking up a few big men won't be enough unless some of these players find an offensive game they currently don't have.

If getting a big added to what we already have isn't going to be enough. What's the point of Burke getting the job? Burke's best card during the interview process is that he can keep what we already have and add 3 pieces. I have faith that this team if kept intact will be very solid next season... We have a lot of young pieces that are only going to get better not to mention a healthy Gadsden for the basically the first time ever in his UNCW career. The talent is there, we just don't have all the pieces. Not to mention you're comparing them to two of the best CAA teams since realignment.
Essentially comparing this years Golden State team to the team that won multiple titles :). Also spot on with your point about Burke.

Oh man, comparing us to this years Golden State team hurts... With 82 being a staunch Burke for HC supporter, I'm interested to hear his answer.
You get my point. We were on track to be historically bad. Those teams we are comparing them too were historically good.

It only hurts because it's true lol
02-19-2020 03:17 PM
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CG_Hawk06 Offline
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
Burke has two significant cards to play, IMO.

1. The current roster. It doesn't matter what school or roster it is. Hiring from within would almost ALWAYS maintain a roster from transfer depletion.

2. The polar difference in, I don't know... how should I say this? Actually coaching? It is not debatable at all that the in-game coaching changed 180 degrees from what it was under McGrath. Whether those changes would consistently work game to game to game the rest of the season with the current roster (most notably injuries and a lack of bigs) is what we have been debating ad nauseum. What hasn't been debated though, is that Burke was the same driver of the bus as McGrath. He's a complete change in everything from attitude, accepting responsibility, in-game coaching, excitement, motivating, and more than likely preparation (that's something that happens behind the scenes that not all of us are privy to).
02-19-2020 03:28 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 03:28 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  What hasn't been debated though, is that Burke was the same driver of the bus as McGrath. He's a complete change in everything from attitude, accepting responsibility, in-game coaching, excitement, motivating, and more than likely preparation (that's something that happens behind the scenes that not all of us are privy to).

Not EVERYTHING about what we're doing has been a complete departure from McGrath, particularly on offense. I still hear the same play-calls coming from the bench. Unless of course they're just named the same but run differently.

I also hear them yell "Split!" still nearly ever time Linssen catches the ball in the post, and still have no idea what that means. Marty just holds the ball in post-up position and nothing happens.

Granted, it's highly difficult to completely change up your playcalls smack in the middle of CAA play. And I do appreciate and recognize that we run a lot more pick 'n' roll when Dodd is in the game. But I think some of the stagnant offense we've seen still falls on some of the failed aspects of McGrath's tenure, unfortunately.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2020 03:34 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
02-19-2020 03:33 PM
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Gary Miller Online
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 03:33 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 03:28 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  What hasn't been debated though, is that Burke was the same driver of the bus as McGrath. He's a complete change in everything from attitude, accepting responsibility, in-game coaching, excitement, motivating, and more than likely preparation (that's something that happens behind the scenes that not all of us are privy to).

Not EVERYTHING about what we're doing has been a complete departure from McGrath, particularly on offense. I still hear the same play-calls coming from the bench. Unless of course they're just named the same but run differently.

I also hear them yell "Split!" still nearly ever time Linssen catches the ball in the post, and still have no idea what that means. Marty just holds the ball in post-up position and nothing happens.

Granted, it's highly difficult to completely change up your playcalls smack in the middle of CAA play. But I think some of the stagnant offense we've seen still falls on some of the failed aspects of McGrath's tenure, unfortunately.

It's hard for me to put much weight into Burke being better than McGrath as something to factor in for his candidacy. Whoever gets the job better be more exciting, inspiring, and better at Xs and Os than C.B.
02-19-2020 03:38 PM
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82hawk Offline
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
My point is Burke has done an amazing job considering the talent he has to work with. And despite all the criticism that somehow HE is responsible for the recruiting that led to this roster, I ain't buying it. This was a UNC coached team through and through. Burke was the Director of Operations when he came(we all know where that is on the totem pole), under McGrath, Esleeck, Joe Wolf and Jackie all from UNC. No way on earth Burke was given the keys to recruit in that pecking order and with those UNC ties.

What he has shown is that he can get a team to exceed their talent on the court. We do not have a single player on this team that our opposition has to worry will go off for 20+ points. Not that it can't happen every once in awhile, but it's not something they have to plan for. In fact, against DI competition we've had a player go over 20 pts. only 3 times in 25 games, and it was a different player each time. And 12 of our 25 games the high scorer had 15 points or less.

By comparison, we had a player score over 20 in 18 different games Keatts last year and the high scorer had at least 17 points in all 33 DI games. That is a significant difference in talent.

We are going to have to recruit our way out of this and hope some of the guys on our roster get their offensive game together. Offense may look pretty much the same, with a few wrinkles, because Esleeck is our offensive guy, per Burke. What I like about Burke is that he is focusing on effort, conditioning, and defense on a team where he doesn't have any go to scorers or big men.

As we look to a new coach I have to wonder what significant difference it will make with bascially the same roster next year. It would be nice to have Burke for a one year deal with a few of his own recruits to see who he can land and how we play.
02-19-2020 07:12 PM
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 07:12 PM)82hawk Wrote:  My point is Burke has done an amazing job considering the talent he has to work with. And despite all the criticism that somehow HE is responsible for the recruiting that led to this roster, I ain't buying it. This was a UNC coached team through and through. Burke was the Director of Operations when he came(we all know where that is on the totem pole), under McGrath, Esleeck, Joe Wolf and Jackie all from UNC. No way on earth Burke was given the keys to recruit in that pecking order and with those UNC ties.

What he has shown is that he can get a team to exceed their talent on the court. We do not have a single player on this team that our opposition has to worry will go off for 20+ points. Not that it can't happen every once in awhile, but it's not something they have to plan for. In fact, against DI competition we've had a player go over 20 pts. only 3 times in 25 games, and it was a different player each time. And 12 of our 25 games the high scorer had 15 points or less.

By comparison, we had a player score over 20 in 18 different games Keatts last year and the high scorer had at least 17 points in all 33 DI games. That is a significant difference in talent.

We are going to have to recruit our way out of this and hope some of the guys on our roster get their offensive game together. Offense may look pretty much the same, with a few wrinkles, because Esleeck is our offensive guy, per Burke. What I like about Burke is that he is focusing on effort, conditioning, and defense on a team where he doesn't have any go to scorers or big men.

As we look to a new coach I have to wonder what significant difference it will make with bascially the same roster next year. It would be nice to have Burke for a one year deal with a few of his own recruits to see who he can land and how we play.

Really don’t think a 1 year deal would be ideal.
02-19-2020 08:06 PM
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SEA33HAWK Offline
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
I don't think the head of basketball operations can do any recruiting.
02-19-2020 08:09 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 07:12 PM)82hawk Wrote:  It would be nice to have Burke for a one year deal with a few of his own recruits to see who he can land and how we play.

He wouldn't be able to recruit anybody on a 1-year deal.

Either give him a 5-year deal or don't hire him. Can't do a half-measure.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2020 08:18 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
02-19-2020 08:18 PM
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
It’s also that this roster is young too. Keatts got older guys that were more mature and that also helped but he did get some talent for sure.
02-19-2020 08:40 PM
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82hawk Offline
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 08:40 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  It’s also that this roster is young too. Keatts got older guys that were more mature and that also helped but he did get some talent for sure.

That's my point. Burke is working with a young group that isn't as talented and he's coached them up to beat some teams we couldn't beat before. These aren't his recruits and i'd like to see what we look like with more experience, more size and with recruits Burke brings in. I like what he's doing with what we've got and I don't see that any other coach would do better.
02-19-2020 09:57 PM
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
The blueprint is recruit better athletes who can run, defend and shoot. We need to bring in someone as close to Keatts as possible. McGrath was DOA and I admire the intensity of Burke but I don't see him as the long term solution. There is a good fit out there who can recruit and coach. We are a very solid mid major program so the job should be attractive.
02-19-2020 11:23 PM
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-19-2020 09:57 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 08:40 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  It’s also that this roster is young too. Keatts got older guys that were more mature and that also helped but he did get some talent for sure.

That's my point. Burke is working with a young group that isn't as talented and he's coached them up to beat some teams we couldn't beat before. These aren't his recruits and i'd like to see what we look like with more experience, more size and with recruits Burke brings in. I like what he's doing with what we've got and I don't see that any other coach would do better.

You are completely ignoring that the talent around the league has decreased as well.
02-20-2020 09:08 AM
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Gary Miller Online
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RE: Basketball roster comparison
(02-20-2020 09:08 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 09:57 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(02-19-2020 08:40 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  It’s also that this roster is young too. Keatts got older guys that were more mature and that also helped but he did get some talent for sure.

That's my point. Burke is working with a young group that isn't as talented and he's coached them up to beat some teams we couldn't beat before. These aren't his recruits and i'd like to see what we look like with more experience, more size and with recruits Burke brings in. I like what he's doing with what we've got and I don't see that any other coach would do better.

You are completely ignoring that the talent around the league has decreased as well.

I don't see Burke recruiting a higher level of talent than before. He might construct a roster differently or maybe even a different style of player but you're acting like he some esteemed recruiter. I like Burke but for you to assume he's going to be able recruit at the level Keatts is a bold way of thinking. If Burke gets this job it will be for his ability to gameplan and motivate, not his recruiting ability. If what you're saying is correct and he's never had any impact on the recruiting at UNCW, then he's never had experience recruiting at this level. His only other assistant job was The Citadel, which can't recruit anywhere near the same level of talent that we can.
02-20-2020 09:21 AM
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