Can someone explain the difference in college basketball because it seems to change every damn trip down the floor.

(02-16-2020 05:00 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  Can someone explain the difference in college basketball because it seems to change every damn trip down the floor.

Yep

I don't think the Refs could explain it ...........

(02-16-2020 05:00 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  Can someone explain the difference in college basketball because it seems to change every damn trip down the floor.

The answer is, if the refs can make a dramatic call that send the crowd wild, it will be a charge. - if its a 20 blowout, they aren't even really looking. after all, don't we fans just want to see the refs be the stars of the game?

(02-16-2020 05:00 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  Can someone explain the difference in college basketball because it seems to change every damn trip down the floor.

The answer is, if the refs can make a dramatic call that send the crowd wild, it will be a charge. - if its a 20 blowout, they aren't even really looking. after all, don't we fans just want to see the refs be the stars of the game?

I don’t think the refs even know what defines a block or charge anymore.

NBA refs do a good job with block charge. College refs are abysmal. Bottom line is it isn't a charge if a player has started into his shot and defender slides over from weak side to stand in his path. Too many college refs see feet planted when the collision occurs and call the charge (fans expect it the too). Refs should be looking when offensive player picks up dribble into his shot to make sure defender is set.

(02-17-2020 07:19 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  NBA refs do a good job with block charge. College refs are abysmal. Bottom line is it isn't a charge if a player has started into his shot and defender slides over from weak side to stand in his path. Too many college refs see feet planted when the collision occurs and call the charge (fans expect it the too). Refs should be looking when offensive player picks up dribble into his shot to make sure defender is set.

Maybe problem with that type of thought is that refs allow 3 and even sometimes 4 steps...so no, if a player is set....and a ball handler is 2-3 steps away....its a charge. (They won't call traveling).

(02-17-2020 07:55 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 07:19 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  NBA refs do a good job with block charge. College refs are abysmal. Bottom line is it isn't a charge if a player has started into his shot and defender slides over from weak side to stand in his path. Too many college refs see feet planted when the collision occurs and call the charge (fans expect it the too). Refs should be looking when offensive player picks up dribble into his shot to make sure defender is set.

Maybe problem with that type of thought is that refs allow 3 and even sometimes 4 steps...so no, if a player is set....and a ball handler is 2-3 steps away....its a charge. (They won't call traveling).

I don't think the definition of the rule says anything about when they pick up the ball. Now they can't slide under once the player leaves the floor though. That makes sense. (but could be wrong if someone can pull the official rule book)

(02-17-2020 07:55 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 07:19 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  NBA refs do a good job with block charge. College refs are abysmal. Bottom line is it isn't a charge if a player has started into his shot and defender slides over from weak side to stand in his path. Too many college refs see feet planted when the collision occurs and call the charge (fans expect it the too). Refs should be looking when offensive player picks up dribble into his shot to make sure defender is set.

Maybe problem with that type of thought is that refs allow 3 and even sometimes 4 steps...so no, if a player is set....and a ball handler is 2-3 steps away....its a charge. (They won't call traveling).

I agree, I do not think the Eurostep was a move in the right direction(rule wise). It makes the game less tight and sloppy.

(02-17-2020 08:23 AM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 07:55 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 07:19 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  NBA refs do a good job with block charge. College refs are abysmal. Bottom line is it isn't a charge if a player has started into his shot and defender slides over from weak side to stand in his path. Too many college refs see feet planted when the collision occurs and call the charge (fans expect it the too). Refs should be looking when offensive player picks up dribble into his shot to make sure defender is set.

Maybe problem with that type of thought is that refs allow 3 and even sometimes 4 steps...so no, if a player is set....and a ball handler is 2-3 steps away....its a charge. (They won't call traveling).

I don't think the definition of the rule says anything about when they pick up the ball. Now they can't slide under once the player leaves the floor though. That makes sense. (but could be wrong if someone can pull the official rule book)

The actual language in the rule book is that a help defender has to allow "time and distance" to avoid the contact. The clearest example of this is that you can't slide under an airborne offensive player because there is literally no way for that player to avoid the contact. However, another good example is a player who beats his man with a full head of steam who has already picked up his dribble to lay it in or dunk. At that point the offensive player cannot avoid the contact. A defender sliding in late should be a block every time. It's rarely called that way in college.

http://www.sportswriters.net/usbwa/cpr/1..._rules.pdf

(02-17-2020 09:21 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 08:23 AM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 07:55 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 07:19 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  NBA refs do a good job with block charge. College refs are abysmal. Bottom line is it isn't a charge if a player has started into his shot and defender slides over from weak side to stand in his path. Too many college refs see feet planted when the collision occurs and call the charge (fans expect it the too). Refs should be looking when offensive player picks up dribble into his shot to make sure defender is set.

Maybe problem with that type of thought is that refs allow 3 and even sometimes 4 steps...so no, if a player is set....and a ball handler is 2-3 steps away....its a charge. (They won't call traveling).

I don't think the definition of the rule says anything about when they pick up the ball. Now they can't slide under once the player leaves the floor though. That makes sense. (but could be wrong if someone can pull the official rule book)

The actual language in the rule book is that a help defender has to allow "time and distance" to avoid the contact. The clearest example of this is that you can't slide under an airborne offensive player because there is literally no way for that player to avoid the contact. However, another good example is a player who beats his man with a full head of steam who has already picked up his dribble to lay it in or dunk. At that point the offensive player cannot avoid the contact. A defender sliding in late should be a block every time. It's rarely called that way in college.

http://www.sportswriters.net/usbwa/cpr/1..._rules.pdf

This is what I found regarding legal playing position. Nothing about time and distance .. in fact the opposite. So basically as long as they are set before they leave the court, it's a charge. It has nothing to do with when they pick up their dribble. I think what you saw on time and distance was Art 5 which is for a player without the ball.

Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the
guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing
court after the jump, for the guard to establish a legal guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have
established legal guarding position before the opponent left the playing
court.

Art. 6. To maintain a legal guarding position after the initial position has been
established, the guard:
a. Is not required to continue having the torso face the opponent;
RULE 4 / Definitions 49
b. Cannot have either foot out of bounds;
c. May raise the hands or may jump within his own vertical plane;
d. May shift to maintain guarding position in the path of the dribbler,
provided that the guard does not charge into the dribbler or otherwise
cause contact;
e. May move laterally or obliquely to maintain position provided such a
move is not toward the opponent when contact occurs; (Exception: A
secondary defender who has established initial legal guarding position on
an airborne shooter/passer may not move laterally or obliquely to maintain
legal guarding position. The secondary defender in this position may remain
stationary or may move backwards. See also A.R. 89.)
f. Is not required to have the feet on the playing court when shifting in the
path of the dribbler or when moving laterally or obliquely, and
g. May turn or duck to absorb shock when contact by the dribbler is
imminent. In such a case, the dribbler shall not be absolved from the
responsibility of contact.

That second part goes against a lot of the people that scream about charges. Primary defender can be moving, doesn't have to be set and CAN turn avoid contact.

(02-17-2020 09:44 AM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 09:21 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 08:23 AM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 07:55 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 07:19 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  NBA refs do a good job with block charge. College refs are abysmal. Bottom line is it isn't a charge if a player has started into his shot and defender slides over from weak side to stand in his path. Too many college refs see feet planted when the collision occurs and call the charge (fans expect it the too). Refs should be looking when offensive player picks up dribble into his shot to make sure defender is set.

Maybe problem with that type of thought is that refs allow 3 and even sometimes 4 steps...so no, if a player is set....and a ball handler is 2-3 steps away....its a charge. (They won't call traveling).

I don't think the definition of the rule says anything about when they pick up the ball. Now they can't slide under once the player leaves the floor though. That makes sense. (but could be wrong if someone can pull the official rule book)

The actual language in the rule book is that a help defender has to allow "time and distance" to avoid the contact. The clearest example of this is that you can't slide under an airborne offensive player because there is literally no way for that player to avoid the contact. However, another good example is a player who beats his man with a full head of steam who has already picked up his dribble to lay it in or dunk. At that point the offensive player cannot avoid the contact. A defender sliding in late should be a block every time. It's rarely called that way in college.

http://www.sportswriters.net/usbwa/cpr/1..._rules.pdf

This is what I found regarding legal playing position. Nothing about time and distance .. in fact the opposite. So basically as long as they are set before they leave the court, it's a charge. It has nothing to do with when they pick up their dribble. I think what you saw on time and distance was Art 5 which is for a player without the ball.

Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the
guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing
court after the jump, for the guard to establish a legal guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have
established legal guarding position before the opponent left the playing
court.

Art. 6. To maintain a legal guarding position after the initial position has been
established, the guard:
a. Is not required to continue having the torso face the opponent;
RULE 4 / Definitions 49
b. Cannot have either foot out of bounds;
c. May raise the hands or may jump within his own vertical plane;
d. May shift to maintain guarding position in the path of the dribbler,
provided that the guard does not charge into the dribbler or otherwise
cause contact;
e. May move laterally or obliquely to maintain position provided such a
move is not toward the opponent when contact occurs; (Exception: A
secondary defender who has established initial legal guarding position on
an airborne shooter/passer may not move laterally or obliquely to maintain
legal guarding position. The secondary defender in this position may remain
stationary or may move backwards. See also A.R. 89.)
f. Is not required to have the feet on the playing court when shifting in the
path of the dribbler or when moving laterally or obliquely, and
g. May turn or duck to absorb shock when contact by the dribbler is
imminent. In such a case, the dribbler shall not be absolved from the
responsibility of contact.

That second part goes against a lot of the people that scream about charges. Primary defender can be moving, doesn't have to be set and CAN turn avoid contact.

That's definitely an exhaustive list that covers a lot of things some of us would never have expected to be in the official rules lol. G.) Really gets me, "may turn or duck to absorb shock." Don't think I've ever seen a player duck and not get called for a block lol.

I never officially trained to be a ref but I trained/worked with one for a summer and reffed for a few seasons (ages 9-13, boys and girls, mainly 7th and 8th grade boys), and what I was told is if the offensive player has started their steps and the defender has not established a set position, it's a charge. Obviously it's not the same level of basketball, but I've always based what I thought was a charge off of that. It's nice to actually see the official rules.

(02-17-2020 09:56 AM)Nameless Wrote:  That's definitely an exhaustive list that covers a lot of things some of us would never have expected to be in the official rules lol. G.) Really gets me, "may turn or duck to absorb shock." Don't think I've ever seen a player duck and not get called for a block lol.

I never officially trained to be a ref but I trained/worked with one for a summer and reffed for a few seasons (ages 9-13, boys and girls, mainly 7th and 8th grade boys), and what I was told is if the offensive player has started their steps and the defender has not established a set position, it's a charge. Obviously it's not the same level of basketball, but I've always based what I thought was a charge off of that. It's nice to actually see the official rules.

Yup and i thought the verticality rules were interesting. This is rarely called by the rule book apparently. As an offensive player that initiates contact by invading the defenders verticality should always be a no-call or a charge.

Section 39. Verticality
Art. 1. Verticality applies to a legal position and also to both the offensive and
defensive players. The basic components of the principle of verticality are:
a. Legal guarding position must be established initially, and movement
thereafter must be legal.
b. As long as no other player is occupying a space on the playing court, any
other player may legally occupy that space.
c. The space that a player may legally occupy is defined by an imaginary
cylinder surrounding the player and which extends from the floor to as
far above the player as he can jump or extend his arms and body. The
diameter of the cylinder shall not extend beyond the hands/arms on the
front (the arms bent at the elbow), the buttocks on the back and the legs
on the sides. These dimensions may vary according to the height and size
of the player.
d. The hands and arms may be raised or extended to the front no further than
the feet and knees when the arms are bent at the elbow.
e. From such position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy
the space within his vertical plane
f. The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his vertical plane
while the defender is on the playing court or in the air.
g. The defender shall not be penalized for leaving the playing court vertically
or having his hands and arms extended within the vertical plane.
h. The offensive player, whether on the playing court or airborne, shall not
“clear out” or cause contact that is not incidental.
i. The defender may not “belly up” or use the lower part of the body or arms
to cause contact outside his vertical plane or inside the opponent's vertical
plane.
j. The player with the ball shall be given no more protection or consideration
than the defender in the judging of which, if either, player has violated the
principle of verticality.
k. The offensive player must be allowed enough space to make a normal
basketball play. The defense may not invade the vertical space of the offense
and make illegal contact when the offensive player is attempting a normal
basketball play. A normal basketball play in this context includes shooting,
passing, dribbling or pivoting

(02-16-2020 05:00 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  Can someone explain the difference in college basketball because it seems to change every damn trip down the floor.

Easy. It’s a block when our team has the ball and a charge when we are on defense. Refs get that wrong all the time.

(02-17-2020 10:37 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(02-16-2020 05:00 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  Can someone explain the difference in college basketball because it seems to change every damn trip down the floor.

Easy. It’s a block when our team has the ball and a charge when we are on defense. Refs get that wrong all the time.

The winner.

I honestly think that 90% of the block/charge calls simply go against the team that the ref is more mad at.

...unless it's Duke, who gets every call.

(02-17-2020 05:47 AM)dave108 Wrote:  

(02-16-2020 05:00 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  Can someone explain the difference in college basketball because it seems to change every damn trip down the floor.

The answer is, if the refs can make a dramatic call that send the crowd wild, it will be a charge. - if its a 20 blowout, they aren't even really looking. after all, don't we fans just want to see the refs be the stars of the game?

Jay Bilas contends that ever since the ref's have gone to that punch signal for a charge, that they love to make that call. Remember when they used to go with the hand behind the head for a player control foul. I honestly think most college refs do get a thrill out of making that punching signal for dramatic effect and having the crowd respond. Also, that semi circle under the basket does more harm than good. If a defender flops he's gonna get the call as long as his feet are outside that circle. I would like to know how the number of per game charge calls in college basketball compares to ten years ago...

(02-17-2020 07:53 PM)JUSTGOPLAY Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 05:47 AM)dave108 Wrote:  

(02-16-2020 05:00 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  Can someone explain the difference in college basketball because it seems to change every damn trip down the floor.

The answer is, if the refs can make a dramatic call that send the crowd wild, it will be a charge. - if its a 20 blowout, they aren't even really looking. after all, don't we fans just want to see the refs be the stars of the game?

Jay Bilas contends that ever since the ref's have gone to that punch signal for a charge, that they love to make that call. Remember when they used to go with the hand behind the head for a player control foul. I honestly think most college refs do get a thrill out of making that punching signal for dramatic effect and having the crowd respond. Also, that semi circle under the basket does more harm than good. If a defender flops he's gonna get the call as long as his feet are outside that circle. I would like to know how the number of per game charge calls in college basketball compares to ten years ago...

In late May, you'll see baseball umpires extend their strikeout (especially on the outside corner) with 2 strikes, if the home team is pitching. Usually the crowd gets pumped and sports officials will feed off of that energy. They don't want to be booed. Whatever thousands of people think is a good call, one team believes it is a good call, could very well actually be a bad call. But I do believe sports officials will feed off energy (knowing if they make a call that favors the home team, the place will go nuts) and make a bad call, but everyone will like that official.

It's really not hard. The rule is really simple.

Whoever establishes position on the court first has the right to the spot. The opposing player may not use physical force to create an advantage and take that spot.

I can't run into someone whether I have the ball or not, which is why it is referred to as a player control foul.

It's a block if done with out the ball and it's a charge with the ball.

(02-18-2020 12:25 PM)Foreverandever Wrote:  It's really not hard. The rule is really simple.

Whoever establishes position on the court first has the right to the spot. The opposing player may not use physical force to create an advantage and take that spot.

I can't run into someone whether I have the ball or not, which is why it is referred to as a player control foul.

It's a block if done with out the ball and it's a charge with the ball.

You make it sound so simple that one would think college officiating would get it....but it’s easily the most broken call in college ball.