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Was Big East football doomed from the start?
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #101
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
The basketball schools were never going to let the football schools make football decisions. You can’t be a cohesive football conference with 6 schools who don’t play football.

BC and Syracuse made the decision in the late 70s that their basketball home was more important than a northeastern football conference. That decision doomed Northeastern football as a cohesive conference unit.
02-18-2020 03:01 PM
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Post: #102
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-18-2020 03:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The basketball schools were never going to let the football schools make football decisions. You can’t be a cohesive football conference with 6 schools who don’t play football.

BC and Syracuse made the decision in the late 70s that their basketball home was more important than a northeastern football conference. That decision doomed Northeastern football as a cohesive conference unit.

The basketball schools voted-in Virginia Tech, Rutgers, Miami and West Virginia as full-members, despite the lack of strong postseason success and clear secondary focus of basketball to football. The basketball schools also voted-in USF, who had only been to two NCAA Tournaments and was still considerably young as a D1 member. Those basketball schools also invited SMU, Houston, UCF, and Tulane as full members as well (and those schools had a combined ten NCAA Tournament appearances in the previous twenty years.

I'd say the basketball schools very much allowed the football schools to make football-related decisions (especially considering they decided to vote them in as full members, and not just football-only). The problem was that once the league started losing members, there were not any sustainable replacements that could have regained the lost value. The first wave of defections (BC/Miami/VT) exposed the hull. The second wave (originally Syracuse/Pittsburgh/WV) brought significant water on the ship. The final wave (Rutgers/Louisville and ND/C7) brought it down for good.
02-18-2020 03:45 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-18-2020 10:07 AM)megadrone Wrote:  If Penn State had been admitted to the Big East in 1982, would the situation be reversed? They could have set more Paterno-friendly terms for revenue sharing when Big East Football came into being and wouldn't have been sniffing around the Big 10 in the 1988-89 timeframe. Pitt would have still been in the Eastern 8 with RU, Temple and WVU in that scenario, and at that point might not have rejected a football home even under PSU favorable terms.

Would Pitt, PSU and WVU be a strong enough conference to draw Florida State out of the Metro and away from the ACC? Or would the Raycom/Metro conference take hold, leaving the ACC as a basketball-centric conference on life support?

They weren't "sniffing around" at the late 80's. It pretty much was the entirety of Bryce Jordan's presidency. Something like 6 years. It just only got hot those later years.

If you have PSU in a conference ahead of or just when Jordan touches down, I don't know if he goes off at all. Or, he does, but the matter is certainly no secret. PSU had more of that going for them back then; football was unattached and a free agent.
02-18-2020 03:47 PM
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Post: #104
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-18-2020 02:27 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 12:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 11:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 11:40 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 10:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Football runs college athletics but they let basketball run the Big East. Not gonna work.

Basketball created and ran the Big East, but they tried having football run it. Did not work. 07-coffee3

Bottom line is the 2012 split was good for the new Big East and good for the AAC. Both groups of schools are happier than they would be if they had remained together.

Big East maybe should have split after Miami and VT left. There might still be a northeast conference with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, Temple, West Virginia, UConn, Louisville, Cincinnati and USF.

The Big East football schools wanted to, but the remaining schools would have lost their BCS status and its automatic NCAA hoops berth because the football schools had not been together long enough to satisfy certain NCAA rules. That is when they decided to add new members and remain together until such time where the schools could later split. Reportedly, BC was not happy with the additions of UofL, UC and USF so they sought out an invitation with the ACC which was accepted.

Don't know why they wouldn't be happy with UL and UC. USF I could understand. They were a newbie in football who hadn't really done anything in basketball either. But I think they were added for recruiting reasons, having a game in Florida.
02-18-2020 04:00 PM
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CliftonAve Online
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Post: #105
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-18-2020 04:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 02:27 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 12:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 11:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 11:40 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Basketball created and ran the Big East, but they tried having football run it. Did not work. 07-coffee3

Bottom line is the 2012 split was good for the new Big East and good for the AAC. Both groups of schools are happier than they would be if they had remained together.

Big East maybe should have split after Miami and VT left. There might still be a northeast conference with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, Temple, West Virginia, UConn, Louisville, Cincinnati and USF.

The Big East football schools wanted to, but the remaining schools would have lost their BCS status and its automatic NCAA hoops berth because the football schools had not been together long enough to satisfy certain NCAA rules. That is when they decided to add new members and remain together until such time where the schools could later split. Reportedly, BC was not happy with the additions of UofL, UC and USF so they sought out an invitation with the ACC which was accepted.

Don't know why they wouldn't be happy with UL and UC. USF I could understand. They were a newbie in football who hadn't really done anything in basketball either. But I think they were added for recruiting reasons, having a game in Florida.

If Mark Blaudshun is to believed, Father Leahy looked down on those schools

"The Big East in football was changing and was adding schools such as Louisville, South Florida and...Cincinnati, which Father Leahy said with extra emphasis when he said he didn't want BC to be part of that group."

https://mavensports.io/college/tmg/mark-...m8Y82ibrSw
(This post was last modified: 02-18-2020 04:05 PM by CliftonAve.)
02-18-2020 04:04 PM
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torch Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
tl;dr - not necessarily, voted no.
02-18-2020 04:48 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-18-2020 04:04 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 04:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 02:27 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 12:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 11:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Bottom line is the 2012 split was good for the new Big East and good for the AAC. Both groups of schools are happier than they would be if they had remained together.

Big East maybe should have split after Miami and VT left. There might still be a northeast conference with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, Temple, West Virginia, UConn, Louisville, Cincinnati and USF.

The Big East football schools wanted to, but the remaining schools would have lost their BCS status and its automatic NCAA hoops berth because the football schools had not been together long enough to satisfy certain NCAA rules. That is when they decided to add new members and remain together until such time where the schools could later split. Reportedly, BC was not happy with the additions of UofL, UC and USF so they sought out an invitation with the ACC which was accepted.

Don't know why they wouldn't be happy with UL and UC. USF I could understand. They were a newbie in football who hadn't really done anything in basketball either. But I think they were added for recruiting reasons, having a game in Florida.

If Mark Blaudshun is to believed, Father Leahy looked down on those schools

"The Big East in football was changing and was adding schools such as Louisville, South Florida and...Cincinnati, which Father Leahy said with extra emphasis when he said he didn't want BC to be part of that group."

https://mavensports.io/college/tmg/mark-...m8Y82ibrSw

Father Leahy! A man after my own heart!!
02-18-2020 05:05 PM
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megadrone Online
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Post: #108
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-18-2020 05:05 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 04:04 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 04:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 02:27 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 12:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  Big East maybe should have split after Miami and VT left. There might still be a northeast conference with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, Temple, West Virginia, UConn, Louisville, Cincinnati and USF.

The Big East football schools wanted to, but the remaining schools would have lost their BCS status and its automatic NCAA hoops berth because the football schools had not been together long enough to satisfy certain NCAA rules. That is when they decided to add new members and remain together until such time where the schools could later split. Reportedly, BC was not happy with the additions of UofL, UC and USF so they sought out an invitation with the ACC which was accepted.

Don't know why they wouldn't be happy with UL and UC. USF I could understand. They were a newbie in football who hadn't really done anything in basketball either. But I think they were added for recruiting reasons, having a game in Florida.

If Mark Blaudshun is to believed, Father Leahy looked down on those schools

"The Big East in football was changing and was adding schools such as Louisville, South Florida and...Cincinnati, which Father Leahy said with extra emphasis when he said he didn't want BC to be part of that group."

https://mavensports.io/college/tmg/mark-...m8Y82ibrSw

Father Leahy! A man after my own heart!!

If Fr. Leahy didn't want Blaudshun calling him Fr. Bill, Fr. Leahy was looking down on Blaudshun!
02-18-2020 05:19 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-18-2020 01:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 11:40 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 10:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Football runs college athletics but they let basketball run the Big East. Not gonna work.

Basketball created and ran the Big East, but they tried having football run it. Did not work. 07-coffee3

It was run by basketball people who didn't understand football. That is what guaranteed its quick disintegration. I don't think it was doomed, but if it was, it was bad management that hastened its demise.

The Big East was put together by Providence, St John's, and Georgetown looking to form a high-level basketball conference to house their schools. Given that 40 years later it's still going strong and has been a top conference in college basketball over the last several years, I'd say the basketball people played it about as well as possible.

BEF was a stapled-on accommodation, and it's college football's lack of popularity in the Northeast that doomed it, not any intra-conference polliticking.
02-18-2020 05:44 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #110
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-18-2020 03:45 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 03:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The basketball schools were never going to let the football schools make football decisions. You can’t be a cohesive football conference with 6 schools who don’t play football.

BC and Syracuse made the decision in the late 70s that their basketball home was more important than a northeastern football conference. That decision doomed Northeastern football as a cohesive conference unit.

The basketball schools voted-in Virginia Tech, Rutgers, Miami and West Virginia as full-members, despite the lack of strong postseason success and clear secondary focus of basketball to football. The basketball schools also voted-in USF, who had only been to two NCAA Tournaments and was still considerably young as a D1 member. Those basketball schools also invited SMU, Houston, UCF, and Tulane as full members as well (and those schools had a combined ten NCAA Tournament appearances in the previous twenty years.

I'd say the basketball schools very much allowed the football schools to make football-related decisions (especially considering they decided to vote them in as full members, and not just football-only). The problem was that once the league started losing members, there were not any sustainable replacements that could have regained the lost value. The first wave of defections (BC/Miami/VT) exposed the hull. The second wave (originally Syracuse/Pittsburgh/WV) brought significant water on the ship. The final wave (Rutgers/Louisville and ND/C7) brought it down for good.

Look at the dynamics of the membership:

Pre-FB: 3 fb 6 non-fb
1991: 4 fb (Miami) 6 non-fb 4 fb affiliates
1995: 6 fb (Rutgers & WVU) 7 non-fb (ND) 2 fb affiliates
2000: 7 fb (VT) 7 non-fb 1 fb affiliate

Each step of the way the basketball schools maintained a majority, leading up to equilibrium in 2000–a state that was, in theory, maintained all the way up until TCU was invited.

If they wanted to keep Pitt, Cuse, and BC in the fold they needed a 10/6 set up, with fb having the majority. Only then, could they invite the right football schools to make a stable league. Instead, they took a “just enough to get by” approach and it led to defections and ultimately the downfall of BE football.

Part of the problem was using the Big East core as a starting point. The JoePa league probably doesn’t include schools like Providence, Seton Hall, and UConn (and Maybe not even St John’s, Villanova, and Georgetown either).
02-18-2020 06:13 PM
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Post: #111
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-14-2020 08:58 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Thoughts?

I'd argue it was, given the competing football and basketball interests weakening the conference and making it vulnerable to poaching from other conferences.

Yes.
They passed on ECU causing their demise.
02-18-2020 06:47 PM
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megadrone Online
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Post: #112
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-18-2020 06:13 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 03:45 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 03:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The basketball schools were never going to let the football schools make football decisions. You can’t be a cohesive football conference with 6 schools who don’t play football.

BC and Syracuse made the decision in the late 70s that their basketball home was more important than a northeastern football conference. That decision doomed Northeastern football as a cohesive conference unit.

The basketball schools voted-in Virginia Tech, Rutgers, Miami and West Virginia as full-members, despite the lack of strong postseason success and clear secondary focus of basketball to football. The basketball schools also voted-in USF, who had only been to two NCAA Tournaments and was still considerably young as a D1 member. Those basketball schools also invited SMU, Houston, UCF, and Tulane as full members as well (and those schools had a combined ten NCAA Tournament appearances in the previous twenty years.

I'd say the basketball schools very much allowed the football schools to make football-related decisions (especially considering they decided to vote them in as full members, and not just football-only). The problem was that once the league started losing members, there were not any sustainable replacements that could have regained the lost value. The first wave of defections (BC/Miami/VT) exposed the hull. The second wave (originally Syracuse/Pittsburgh/WV) brought significant water on the ship. The final wave (Rutgers/Louisville and ND/C7) brought it down for good.

Look at the dynamics of the membership:

Pre-FB: 3 fb 6 non-fb
1991: 4 fb (Miami) 6 non-fb 4 fb affiliates
1995: 6 fb (Rutgers & WVU) 7 non-fb (ND) 2 fb affiliates
2000: 7 fb (VT) 7 non-fb 1 fb affiliate

Each step of the way the basketball schools maintained a majority, leading up to equilibrium in 2000–a state that was, in theory, maintained all the way up until TCU was invited.

If they wanted to keep Pitt, Cuse, and BC in the fold they needed a 10/6 set up, with fb having the majority. Only then, could they invite the right football schools to make a stable league. Instead, they took a “just enough to get by” approach and it led to defections and ultimately the downfall of BE football.

Part of the problem was using the Big East core as a starting point. The JoePa league probably doesn’t include schools like Providence, Seton Hall, and UConn (and Maybe not even St John’s, Villanova, and Georgetown either).

Again, go back to a realignment of the Eastern 8 and Big East on football lines. But that would need to have happened in the mid 70s.
02-19-2020 11:29 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #113
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-18-2020 06:47 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-14-2020 08:58 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Thoughts?

I'd argue it was, given the competing football and basketball interests weakening the conference and making it vulnerable to poaching from other conferences.

Yes.
They passed on ECU causing their demise.

I don’t know, ECU was already starting to stink it up on their own.
02-19-2020 11:32 AM
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Post: #114
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
No, what doomed them was their indecisiveness on the direction of the conference which lead to instability on adds and members jumping ship due to a more stable conference. If the Big East hadn't turned down their ESPN offer they'd still be here as an AQ conference.

Thank you Judy Genshaft for taking rivalry way to far and blowing up the conference over it.
02-19-2020 02:45 PM
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RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-17-2020 11:14 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  So back in the '80s, was there anything that could have convinced FSU to shack up with a group of schools whose only member south of Virginia was Miami? Perhaps Penn State might have been a draw, though FSU reportedly opted for the ACC over the SEC because they believed the latter offered too much competition in football. What if the ACC were to show weakness by suffering a defection, such as Maryland to a PSU-led Eastern all-sports conference?

Responding to myself since no one bit:

If I recall correctly, Maryland was included in a list of Paterno's desired hypothetical conference mates at some point in the '70s or '80s, along with the major northeastern FB indies. Was there in fact a chance of Maryland leaving the ACC back then, or was it just Paterno's wishful thinking?
02-19-2020 05:47 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #116
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
If Paterno was picking the members:

Penn St
Pitt
WVU
Cuse
BC
Temple
Rutgers
Maryland
Florida St
Miami

VT and SC maybe get a look if they decide to go to 12 and a CCG.

If you’re looking for non-fb members to round it out Providence and SH are probably both out.

Villanova and Georgetown are toss ups. They might not want to double down on those 2 big markets.

I think they definitely want St John’s for NYC.

I think UConn is a giant question mark and probably not in the mix. They were firmly an FCS football operation at the time and they hadn’t yet won a bunch of tournaments yet.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2020 08:27 PM by Fighting Muskie.)
02-19-2020 08:26 PM
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Post: #117
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-14-2020 08:58 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Thoughts?

I'd argue it was, given the competing football and basketball interests weakening the conference and making it vulnerable to poaching from other conferences.

No it could have survived with the AAC football schools if Villanova had moved up with UConn, or when it was offered a FB slot prior to the break up.

FB East: Nova, USF, UCF, UConn, Temple, ECU FB only (remaining sports in the A-10).
FB West: SMU, Houston, Tulane, Memphis, Cinn, Navy FB only (remaining sports in the Patriot League).

FB still 5 & 3 with a Championship Game.

BB only: St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall, Marquette, DePaul, Georgetown.

BB / Olympic Sports North: Nova, St. John's, Providence, Georgetown, DePaul, Marquette, Seton Hall, UConn.

BB / Olympic Sports South: Temple, Cinn, USF, UCF, Memphis, Tulane, SMU, Houston.

Double round robin plus 4 rotating cross over games for an 18 game BB schedule. BB Tournament stays at MSG.

Tulsa remains in CUSA or goes to the MWC in realignment since they were the last school admitted to the AAC.

04-cheers 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 02-20-2020 12:55 PM by panite.)
02-20-2020 12:53 PM
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Post: #118
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
(02-19-2020 05:47 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-17-2020 11:14 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  So back in the '80s, was there anything that could have convinced FSU to shack up with a group of schools whose only member south of Virginia was Miami? Perhaps Penn State might have been a draw, though FSU reportedly opted for the ACC over the SEC because they believed the latter offered too much competition in football. What if the ACC were to show weakness by suffering a defection, such as Maryland to a PSU-led Eastern all-sports conference?

Responding to myself since no one bit:

If I recall correctly, Maryland was included in a list of Paterno's desired hypothetical conference mates at some point in the '70s or '80s, along with the major northeastern FB indies. Was there in fact a chance of Maryland leaving the ACC back then, or was it just Paterno's wishful thinking?

No chance MD leaves the ACC until Kirwan took over the MD System - there was no desire on the part of the MD fan base, boosters, or faculty. It was his deal for political reasons. MD formed the Southern Conference in 1921 and the ACC in 1953 with the ideation of staying tied to the South. Kirwan, whose dad ran Kentucky, fell in love with Ohio State and the Big 10 when he was at OSU and combined his love for the B10 with a political effort to bamboozle the MD Board so that MD College Park, could effectively take over the system and most of all take over the graduate school in Baltimore.
(This post was last modified: 02-20-2020 01:00 PM by Statefan.)
02-20-2020 12:57 PM
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Post: #119
RE: Was Big East football doomed from the start?
As many of said..penn St was necessary. I don’t think PSU would have stayed in the BE, but I cannot see PSU walking away from an eastern all sports conference that Paterno wold have essentially created in the early 80s..I think PSU would have stayed/a least while Joe Pa was alive

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