The A10 doesn't make much money at all. We're talking like 5-10 million dollars as a conference for TV.

The A10 has been a multi-bid year a few times recently only due to a bid theif....

Travel for VCU wouldn't change much at all. Still got Philly with Temple, still got Cincy with Cincy of course. Have some close things like ECU for instance. Not much difference between going to SB and Memphis. Yeah there would be a few further trips- but remember the A10 still has SLU obviously.....

It would also severely hurt the A10. VCU

S20, the AAC can't very easily (from a practical perspective) take VCU unless it also lands a "football only." And therein lies the challenge. There is no strong football-only candidate (unless App State was willing).

Now, I would be very pleased to have VCU in the American and feel the program would strongly consider an invite for many reasons (including the concern that it could get left behind in an A10 that would be strongly wounded if the Big East eventually takes SLU and Dayton, a move I would favor for the BE).

GW11 makes some outstanding points about UAB and the AAC and I would be fine with that add. The program makes a lot of sense in many respects. I still prefer ODU for various reasons. That athletic program is a "semi-sleeping giant." But Birmingham is a very cool city and having the Blazers back with Memphis and Cincy would be nice.

We'll know in the next five years or so.

I just want both the AAC and the Big East to be as strong as possible moving into the future.

(02-20-2020 09:16 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 11:31 PM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 09:27 PM)stever20 Wrote:  updated with most of the early games from tonight.... couple of huge games going on now.

Just because we mentioned Cincy earlier in the thread... Any thought of where they stand after a home loss to UCF tonight? That's 4 losses below Q2 for them now

As a Cincy fan, this loss was pathetic. UCF is solid but the Bearcats were at home and some very nice momentum.

Watching the game, there were points where it almost felt like Jarron was trying to out do Jaevin and it cost them. Jaevin hit so many tough 30 footers to keep them in it, then Jarron would bomb one from just as deep and miss when he could've found a better look.

He almost made up for it at the end but it was clear as day, even without a review, that he didn't get that shot off

(02-20-2020 09:22 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:16 AM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:06 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 11:56 PM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 11:38 PM)stever20 Wrote:  they're lucky because a lot of teams just below them lost.... They get really helped IMO by Georgetown losing to Providence(PC has a real tough rest of the way). They'll probably be one of the first 3-4 teams out on Friday IMO.

Didn't even realize Georgetown lost tonight until reading that post. I agree that definitely helps.

Another thing working against Cincy (and any AAC team fighting for a bid) is SMU inexplicably losing to Tulane tonight. Memphis barely skating by against ECU isn't a great look either, but obviously better than a loss.

The parity in the league is exciting and fun to watch, but man is it killing the league's hopes for multiple tourney bids.

SMU only dropped from 67 to 73 so wins @ SMU still Q1.

AAC I think 1st time ever has all 12 teams in the top 200. the coaching hires at ECU and Tulane really helping those programs out.

But with the struggles at the top, you just wonder if you see the league go out and get a VCU to keep the league at 12 for basketball.

It's funny because it would actually make more sense for them to stay at 11 in basketball and move to a 20 game round robin like the Big East uses. But in basketball there are plenty of great additions, most notably VCU as you mentioned, and they really could use another solid team in the league. They may end up adding someone anyways.

In football, it makes more sense for them to go to 12 so they can once again employ balanced divisions and increase the profile of the league by adding another solid team. But the options there are much more limited and there are no homerun type choices that would jump at an offer, as there are in basketball. They may end up adding no one.

In a perfect world, things would be flipped. I'm interested to see if they make any moves, and what they will be

Perfect world add for AAC: Army/VCU. Not gonna happen.

Solid option: ODU for all sports

Wildcard: App State for football only/VCU for Olympic sports

As you note, and I agree, there is no "homerun" option.

I disagree with you on staying at 11 for hoops and round-robin-ing it. That works well in the BE, because every program is solid to strong. Too much mediocrity every year in the bottom third of the American.

I want 12 for the AAC and would take 14 in the right circumstance. I want 12 for the BE, too, with Saint Louis my top choice (though Dayton would be strong, too).

Agreed, Army isn't leaving Indy for the AAC (and as a UConn fan, I need them to stay Indy as they're a regional brand we can play every year.)

I think ODU has 2 things working against them. For one, they don't do anything to help persuade the casual fan the AAC isn't a "G5", which is clearly important to the league with it's P6 moniker. Also, they're another CUSA school, which would further solidify the argument made by some that the AAC is essentially CUSA 2.0.

You bring up a good point; I doubt the top of the league wants Tulane and ECU on their schedule twice per year. However, an advantage to a round robin schedule is you eliminate 2 of the garbage opponents those schools play every year in favor of a stronger opponent in conference, which inevitably boosts their NET ranking. It also has the added advantage of making sure all the top teams meet twice (UConn and WSU only met once this year, for example.) I don't think overall it would be a net negative (no pun intended), but I definitely understand the argument against it.

Just curious, what makes you want 12 for the Big East? I personally am looking forward to the round robin next year.

(02-20-2020 11:16 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Well, when Wichita State joined the American in 2017, reports started coming out in March of that year. They were ultimately voted-in in April. If the timeline is to be similar - and, to be clear, Wichita was a responsive measure due to the lack of on-court basketball success other than UConn up to that point - then you'd have to think if there is movement before next year, the pieces are likely already in play (especially due to UConn leaving and the AAC's struggles this year). Where I have my doubts is on the following points:

- Dayton (and SLU) would undoubtedly much rather be in the BE than the AAC. This is due to institutional fit, athletic fit, geographic fit and cultural fit. Would the AAC risk adding a member that would inevitably get poached by the BE again? Losing UConn to the BE significantly hurt its perception. Not sure Presidents/ADs/Coaches want to go down that path again.
- Up until this point, there is no evidence (again, thus far) that a team would jump from the A10 to the AAC. I discussed this with Stever earlier, but until we know the breakdown of payments/tournament credits/etc. of being in the A10 to the AAC (where only Wichita State would likely provide a likely comparison), it is a substantial assumption that anyone in the A10 would immediately jump to the AAC. I'm not saying it won't happen, but I don't think it's a sure thing either. Gonzaga turned down the MWC. Lateral moves within non-power conferences are not always so easy as they seem to fans. The pay might be a little bit better, but other costs - both financial and non-financial - come into play.
- The A10 is still a multi-bid league, which is different that Wichita State leaving the MVC (single bid). VCU, as an example, would be adding on significantly more travel for Olympic sports (and move to a Southern-based league) just for basketball; however, has the A10 really held back VCU from competing for tournament bids or advancing in the tournament (I'd say no). For SLU/UD, you become the only Catholic schools in a predominantly Public/Southern conference, many of whom do not prioritize basketball. I'm just not sure it's a sure thing as some have made it out to be.

As an outsider, I do think it is in the best interest for the AAC to add a full-member to get to 12 (and not a stop-gap non-football member until a better option reveals itself). Wichita State filled a need and a role at that point in time (and balanced Navy's football-only membership). We know that Army, BYU, and no one from the MWC is jumping ship (as it would have happened already, since the AAC would take one of those in a heartbeat). Thus, that leaves the one conference where a majority of the AAC plucked its members from: C-USA. I've seen recommendations like Old Dominion, UMass, Liberty, etc. tossed around, but - in my mind - the easiest and best candidate is one that has shared history with many of the AAC already: UAB. They are building a brand-new downtown football stadium, they already built a brand new practice facility, they are not only in the footprint, but established a clear epicenter for the conference, and they bring a solid basketball program (and nice arena too). They also are a nationally ranked academic university. When Memphis and Cincinnati were/are top-15 programs in basketball, their arena averages over 9k. Birmingham is also in a heavily football recruited state, and fits in with the Southern/urban identity the AAC has taken on. Give them a few years in elevated TV payouts, and it would be a strong investment by the AAC for both football and men's basketball IMO.

Great analysis, on all points. Would give a +3 but I'm just short of being able to give rep points, lol.

UAB would definitely be a solid add. Just not sure the conference itself wants to keep adding CUSA teams, as they attempt to distinguish themselves more and move on from their past

(02-20-2020 01:03 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  S20, the AAC can't very easily (from a practical perspective) take VCU unless it also lands a "football only." And therein lies the challenge. There is no strong football-only candidate (unless App State was willing).

Now, I would be very pleased to have VCU in the American and feel the program would strongly consider an invite for many reasons (including the concern that it could get left behind in an A10 that would be strongly wounded if the Big East eventually takes SLU and Dayton, a move I would favor for the BE).

GW11 makes some outstanding points about UAB and the AAC and I would be fine with that add. The program makes a lot of sense in many respects. I still prefer ODU for various reasons. That athletic program is a "semi-sleeping giant." But Birmingham is a very cool city and having the Blazers back with Memphis and Cincy would be nice.

We'll know in the next five years or so.

I just want both the AAC and the Big East to be as strong as possible moving into the future.

And they definitely can be. I think the problem was the attempted "forced marriage" between the C7 and football schools in 2011/2012 that created a loss in value to both parties. Ultimately, the "hybrid" model for a power conference lost its purpose. Cincinnati and USF are much better fits with the current collection of American schools; just like UConn is a much better fit with the Big East.

Respectfully, Bill, I just don't think ODU - at present - is a strong candidate. Yes, they are investing, but their football program went 1-11 this past year. For all of the defiance in finally getting rid of a "dead weight" football program in UConn that was not competitive, the AAC will now suddenly add a program 10-26 the past three seasons? At that point, it would have just been easier (and better) to just keep UConn as a football-only (which, for many reasons) was never going to work. Additionally, ODU has a very small stadium (just over 22k). Attendance is still a very strong issue for the AAC; any "new" member needs to be able to provide fans and viewers to games.

(02-20-2020 11:37 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The A10 doesn't make much money at all. We're talking like 5-10 million dollars as a conference for TV.

The A10 has been a multi-bid year a few times recently only due to a bid theif....

Travel for VCU wouldn't change much at all. Still got Philly with Temple, still got Cincy with Cincy of course. Have some close things like ECU for instance. Not much difference between going to SB and Memphis. Yeah there would be a few further trips- but remember the A10 still has SLU obviously.....

It would also severely hurt the A10. VCU

I still can't find any articles that specify the current payouts annually. The prior deal was for $40 million total per year for eight years (about $5 million for all of the teams annually). However, the new ESPN deal vastly expanded their coverage of games and put more of their games on ESPN+.

To further that point, why would ESPN want to clearly devalue one of its properties (A10) in order to not elevate (just maintain, at best) the value of another - especially when they can just keep the AAC TV deal the same and eliminate UConn's share moving forward (without the AAC's approval). I don't see the benefit to ESPN in that regard. Much of the content is going to ESPN+ plus regardless, and ESPN has invested considerably in moving select properties over to it anyways.

It's a lot easier to raid, once again, C-USA, whose main networks are CBS Sports Network and Facebook. There is no ESPN-on-ESPN crime there.

I know many want to avoid the AAC = C-USA look, but - let's be honest: when the football schools decided to rebrand itself in 2012 (and move away from the C-USA looks that so many were trying to distance itself from), they chose a conference name that was a carbon copy of their former home (American vs. C-USA), they chose the exact same color schemes (Red, White and Blue), and they invited a majority of programs from their prior conference (Cincinnati, USF, UCF, Memphis, Houston, SMU, ECU, Tulane and Tulsa). If the intent was truly attempting to distance themselves from the C-USA label, they failed miserably (and I don't think they were really trying to distance themselves from it at all; I think they tried to maintain a brand that brought the schools together and wanted to maintain some consistency).

(02-20-2020 01:27 PM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:22 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:16 AM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:06 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 11:56 PM)Nameless Wrote:  Didn't even realize Georgetown lost tonight until reading that post. I agree that definitely helps.

Another thing working against Cincy (and any AAC team fighting for a bid) is SMU inexplicably losing to Tulane tonight. Memphis barely skating by against ECU isn't a great look either, but obviously better than a loss.

The parity in the league is exciting and fun to watch, but man is it killing the league's hopes for multiple tourney bids.

SMU only dropped from 67 to 73 so wins @ SMU still Q1.

AAC I think 1st time ever has all 12 teams in the top 200. the coaching hires at ECU and Tulane really helping those programs out.

But with the struggles at the top, you just wonder if you see the league go out and get a VCU to keep the league at 12 for basketball.

It's funny because it would actually make more sense for them to stay at 11 in basketball and move to a 20 game round robin like the Big East uses. But in basketball there are plenty of great additions, most notably VCU as you mentioned, and they really could use another solid team in the league. They may end up adding someone anyways.

In football, it makes more sense for them to go to 12 so they can once again employ balanced divisions and increase the profile of the league by adding another solid team. But the options there are much more limited and there are no homerun type choices that would jump at an offer, as there are in basketball. They may end up adding no one.

In a perfect world, things would be flipped. I'm interested to see if they make any moves, and what they will be

Perfect world add for AAC: Army/VCU. Not gonna happen.

Solid option: ODU for all sports

Wildcard: App State for football only/VCU for Olympic sports

As you note, and I agree, there is no "homerun" option.

I disagree with you on staying at 11 for hoops and round-robin-ing it. That works well in the BE, because every program is solid to strong. Too much mediocrity every year in the bottom third of the American.

I want 12 for the AAC and would take 14 in the right circumstance. I want 12 for the BE, too, with Saint Louis my top choice (though Dayton would be strong, too).

Agreed, Army isn't leaving Indy for the AAC (and as a UConn fan, I need them to stay Indy as they're a regional brand we can play every year.)

I think ODU has 2 things working against them. For one, they don't do anything to help persuade the casual fan the AAC isn't a "G5", which is clearly important to the league with it's P6 moniker. Also, they're another CUSA school, which would further solidify the argument made by some that the AAC is essentially CUSA 2.0.

You bring up a good point; I doubt the top of the league wants Tulane and ECU on their schedule twice per year. However, an advantage to a round robin schedule is you eliminate 2 of the garbage opponents those schools play every year in favor of a stronger opponent in conference, which inevitably boosts their NET ranking. It also has the added advantage of making sure all the top teams meet twice (UConn and WSU only met once this year, for example.) I don't think overall it would be a net negative (no pun intended), but I definitely understand the argument against it.

Just curious, what makes you want 12 for the Big East? I personally am looking forward to the round robin next year.

Very good question (regarding my wanting 12 to 14 for BE), and I will post response tonight. Busy afternoon and then beer drinking with the work gang.

I do like the thought of the 20-game round-robin next year (though originally I was luke-warm at best to it).

(02-20-2020 01:59 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 01:03 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  S20, the AAC can't very easily (from a practical perspective) take VCU unless it also lands a "football only." And therein lies the challenge. There is no strong football-only candidate (unless App State was willing).

Now, I would be very pleased to have VCU in the American and feel the program would strongly consider an invite for many reasons (including the concern that it could get left behind in an A10 that would be strongly wounded if the Big East eventually takes SLU and Dayton, a move I would favor for the BE).

GW11 makes some outstanding points about UAB and the AAC and I would be fine with that add. The program makes a lot of sense in many respects. I still prefer ODU for various reasons. That athletic program is a "semi-sleeping giant." But Birmingham is a very cool city and having the Blazers back with Memphis and Cincy would be nice.

We'll know in the next five years or so.

I just want both the AAC and the Big East to be as strong as possible moving into the future.

And they definitely can be. I think the problem was the attempted "forced marriage" between the C7 and football schools in 2011/2012 that created a loss in value to both parties. Ultimately, the "hybrid" model for a power conference lost its purpose. Cincinnati and USF are much better fits with the current collection of American schools; just like UConn is a much better fit with the Big East.

Respectfully, Bill, I just don't think ODU - at present - is a strong candidate. Yes, they are investing, but their football program went 1-11 this past year. For all of the defiance in finally getting rid of a "dead weight" football program in UConn that was not competitive, the AAC will now suddenly add a program 10-26 the past three seasons? At that point, it would have just been easier (and better) to just keep UConn as a football-only (which, for many reasons) was never going to work. Additionally, ODU has a very small stadium (just over 22k). Attendance is still a very strong issue for the AAC; any "new" member needs to be able to provide fans and viewers to games.

You might be slowly winning me over to UAB. Your points about both UAB and ODU are well made.

(02-20-2020 03:12 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I do like the thought of the 20-game round-robin next year (though originally I was luke-warm at best to it).

I'm also looking forward to the round robin. It may be that after a few years of data it turns out that it isn't the best thing for the conference in terms of maximizing bids, but I really like the idea of a true home-and-home with every team every year.

(02-20-2020 03:59 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 03:12 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I do like the thought of the 20-game round-robin next year (though originally I was luke-warm at best to it).

I'm also looking forward to the round robin. It may be that after a few years of data it turns out that it isn't the best thing for the conference in terms of maximizing bids, but I really like the idea of a true home-and-home with every team every year.

I really think it hurts the bids... i mean look at Big Ten this year. Purdue may be poster child for 20 conference games killing your chances of making the tourney.

(02-20-2020 01:27 PM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:22 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:16 AM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:06 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 11:56 PM)Nameless Wrote:  Didn't even realize Georgetown lost tonight until reading that post. I agree that definitely helps.

Another thing working against Cincy (and any AAC team fighting for a bid) is SMU inexplicably losing to Tulane tonight. Memphis barely skating by against ECU isn't a great look either, but obviously better than a loss.

The parity in the league is exciting and fun to watch, but man is it killing the league's hopes for multiple tourney bids.

SMU only dropped from 67 to 73 so wins @ SMU still Q1.

AAC I think 1st time ever has all 12 teams in the top 200. the coaching hires at ECU and Tulane really helping those programs out.

But with the struggles at the top, you just wonder if you see the league go out and get a VCU to keep the league at 12 for basketball.

It's funny because it would actually make more sense for them to stay at 11 in basketball and move to a 20 game round robin like the Big East uses. But in basketball there are plenty of great additions, most notably VCU as you mentioned, and they really could use another solid team in the league. They may end up adding someone anyways.

In football, it makes more sense for them to go to 12 so they can once again employ balanced divisions and increase the profile of the league by adding another solid team. But the options there are much more limited and there are no homerun type choices that would jump at an offer, as there are in basketball. They may end up adding no one.

In a perfect world, things would be flipped. I'm interested to see if they make any moves, and what they will be

Perfect world add for AAC: Army/VCU. Not gonna happen.

Solid option: ODU for all sports

Wildcard: App State for football only/VCU for Olympic sports

As you note, and I agree, there is no "homerun" option.

I disagree with you on staying at 11 for hoops and round-robin-ing it. That works well in the BE, because every program is solid to strong. Too much mediocrity every year in the bottom third of the American.

I want 12 for the AAC and would take 14 in the right circumstance. I want 12 for the BE, too, with Saint Louis my top choice (though Dayton would be strong, too).

Agreed, Army isn't leaving Indy for the AAC (and as a UConn fan, I need them to stay Indy as they're a regional brand we can play every year.)

I think ODU has 2 things working against them. For one, they don't do anything to help persuade the casual fan the AAC isn't a "G5", which is clearly important to the league with it's P6 moniker. Also, they're another CUSA school, which would further solidify the argument made by some that the AAC is essentially CUSA 2.0.

You bring up a good point; I doubt the top of the league wants Tulane and ECU on their schedule twice per year. However, an advantage to a round robin schedule is you eliminate 2 of the garbage opponents those schools play every year in favor of a stronger opponent in conference, which inevitably boosts their NET ranking. It also has the added advantage of making sure all the top teams meet twice (UConn and WSU only met once this year, for example.) I don't think overall it would be a net negative (no pun intended), but I definitely understand the argument against it.

Just curious, what makes you want 12 for the Big East? I personally am looking forward to the round robin next year.

Here we go, Nameless. From a thread on the realignment board:

Fighting Muskie Wrote:

Let’s say the Big East has 5 teams in the tournament and the ACC has 7. Both conferences got 50% of their schools into the dance but to the casual viewer the ACC’s 7 schools appears to be a far better showing than the Big East’s 5.

For reasons like that I think the Big East is better off as a larger conference than a smaller one. If you can bring other likeminded institutions into the fold that fit the geographic footprint and are consistent performers in basketball you’re going to boost you’re total number of bids and appear more on par with the large 14 member conferences like the ACC, Big Ten, and SEC.

I think Dayton and St Louis can help with that in the Midwest and on the East Coast someone like Richmond, VCU, UMass, or a Catholic school like Duquesne could enhance the overall image of the conference.

Presto! 14 team conference.


I responded:

Bingo. And if the five comprehensive power conferences get reduced to four and each goes to 16 teams ... And each of the four lands, say, nine to 11 teams each year in the tourney compared to the 11-team Big East getting, say, five to seven ... the perception thing becomes even more glaring. A 14-team Big East will get seven to eight (and maybe even nine) every year.

(02-20-2020 04:42 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 01:27 PM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:22 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:16 AM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:06 AM)stever20 Wrote:  SMU only dropped from 67 to 73 so wins @ SMU still Q1.

AAC I think 1st time ever has all 12 teams in the top 200. the coaching hires at ECU and Tulane really helping those programs out.

But with the struggles at the top, you just wonder if you see the league go out and get a VCU to keep the league at 12 for basketball.

It's funny because it would actually make more sense for them to stay at 11 in basketball and move to a 20 game round robin like the Big East uses. But in basketball there are plenty of great additions, most notably VCU as you mentioned, and they really could use another solid team in the league. They may end up adding someone anyways.

In football, it makes more sense for them to go to 12 so they can once again employ balanced divisions and increase the profile of the league by adding another solid team. But the options there are much more limited and there are no homerun type choices that would jump at an offer, as there are in basketball. They may end up adding no one.

In a perfect world, things would be flipped. I'm interested to see if they make any moves, and what they will be

Perfect world add for AAC: Army/VCU. Not gonna happen.

Solid option: ODU for all sports

Wildcard: App State for football only/VCU for Olympic sports

As you note, and I agree, there is no "homerun" option.

I disagree with you on staying at 11 for hoops and round-robin-ing it. That works well in the BE, because every program is solid to strong. Too much mediocrity every year in the bottom third of the American.

I want 12 for the AAC and would take 14 in the right circumstance. I want 12 for the BE, too, with Saint Louis my top choice (though Dayton would be strong, too).

Agreed, Army isn't leaving Indy for the AAC (and as a UConn fan, I need them to stay Indy as they're a regional brand we can play every year.)

I think ODU has 2 things working against them. For one, they don't do anything to help persuade the casual fan the AAC isn't a "G5", which is clearly important to the league with it's P6 moniker. Also, they're another CUSA school, which would further solidify the argument made by some that the AAC is essentially CUSA 2.0.

You bring up a good point; I doubt the top of the league wants Tulane and ECU on their schedule twice per year. However, an advantage to a round robin schedule is you eliminate 2 of the garbage opponents those schools play every year in favor of a stronger opponent in conference, which inevitably boosts their NET ranking. It also has the added advantage of making sure all the top teams meet twice (UConn and WSU only met once this year, for example.) I don't think overall it would be a net negative (no pun intended), but I definitely understand the argument against it.

Just curious, what makes you want 12 for the Big East? I personally am looking forward to the round robin next year.

Here we go, Nameless. From a thread on the realignment board:

Fighting Muskie Wrote:

Let’s say the Big East has 5 teams in the tournament and the ACC has 7. Both conferences got 50% of their schools into the dance but to the casual viewer the ACC’s 7 schools appears to be a far better showing than the Big East’s 5.

For reasons like that I think the Big East is better off as a larger conference than a smaller one. If you can bring other likeminded institutions into the fold that fit the geographic footprint and are consistent performers in basketball you’re going to boost you’re total number of bids and appear more on par with the large 14 member conferences like the ACC, Big Ten, and SEC.

I think Dayton and St Louis can help with that in the Midwest and on the East Coast someone like Richmond, VCU, UMass, or a Catholic school like Duquesne could enhance the overall image of the conference.

Presto! 14 team conference.


I responded:

Bingo. And if the five comprehensive power conferences get reduced to four and each goes to 16 teams ... And each of the four lands, say, nine to 11 teams each year in the tourney compared to the 11-team Big East getting, say, five to seven ... the perception thing becomes even more glaring. A 14-team Big East will get seven to eight (and maybe even nine) every year.

Yea, that's a logical argument. I guess I was so obsessed with the round robin I failed to see the forest for the trees, lol.

Would Dayton definitely get enough votes to get into the conference? I'm not sure if you simply need a majority or a super majority to get approved as a member. I know Xavier might have an issue with them joining, but I don't think the conference as a whole would reject them so I think they're a logical candidate as a 12th team.

SLU I'm not as sold on. I remember them making a solid tourney run back in like 2012 (sweet 16 iirc) but other than that they've always seemed like an NIT team at best. How many times have they made the tourney since 2012? I would look but halftime of the UConn Temple game is coming to an end.

Would personally love to have WSU in the league as a 13th since they have a natural rivalry with Creighton. I know they're a public and not a private school but they're a basketball crazed fan base and fit from that perspective

updated with early stuff tonight.

one big thing- Northern Iowa quickly making it where no chance of a bid thief in the MVC. lost 2 straight here.

it'll be interesting to see if the 1st xx teams out is down from 16 to say 12. feels like that area has really fallen apart here. teams like Minnesota, SMU, and Syracuse with big losses that should be just about it for them.

(02-20-2020 08:02 PM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 04:42 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 01:27 PM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:22 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 09:16 AM)Nameless Wrote:  It's funny because it would actually make more sense for them to stay at 11 in basketball and move to a 20 game round robin like the Big East uses. But in basketball there are plenty of great additions, most notably VCU as you mentioned, and they really could use another solid team in the league. They may end up adding someone anyways.

In football, it makes more sense for them to go to 12 so they can once again employ balanced divisions and increase the profile of the league by adding another solid team. But the options there are much more limited and there are no homerun type choices that would jump at an offer, as there are in basketball. They may end up adding no one.

In a perfect world, things would be flipped. I'm interested to see if they make any moves, and what they will be

Perfect world add for AAC: Army/VCU. Not gonna happen.

Solid option: ODU for all sports

Wildcard: App State for football only/VCU for Olympic sports

As you note, and I agree, there is no "homerun" option.

I disagree with you on staying at 11 for hoops and round-robin-ing it. That works well in the BE, because every program is solid to strong. Too much mediocrity every year in the bottom third of the American.

I want 12 for the AAC and would take 14 in the right circumstance. I want 12 for the BE, too, with Saint Louis my top choice (though Dayton would be strong, too).

Agreed, Army isn't leaving Indy for the AAC (and as a UConn fan, I need them to stay Indy as they're a regional brand we can play every year.)

I think ODU has 2 things working against them. For one, they don't do anything to help persuade the casual fan the AAC isn't a "G5", which is clearly important to the league with it's P6 moniker. Also, they're another CUSA school, which would further solidify the argument made by some that the AAC is essentially CUSA 2.0.

You bring up a good point; I doubt the top of the league wants Tulane and ECU on their schedule twice per year. However, an advantage to a round robin schedule is you eliminate 2 of the garbage opponents those schools play every year in favor of a stronger opponent in conference, which inevitably boosts their NET ranking. It also has the added advantage of making sure all the top teams meet twice (UConn and WSU only met once this year, for example.) I don't think overall it would be a net negative (no pun intended), but I definitely understand the argument against it.

Just curious, what makes you want 12 for the Big East? I personally am looking forward to the round robin next year.

Here we go, Nameless. From a thread on the realignment board:

Fighting Muskie Wrote:

Let’s say the Big East has 5 teams in the tournament and the ACC has 7. Both conferences got 50% of their schools into the dance but to the casual viewer the ACC’s 7 schools appears to be a far better showing than the Big East’s 5.

For reasons like that I think the Big East is better off as a larger conference than a smaller one. If you can bring other likeminded institutions into the fold that fit the geographic footprint and are consistent performers in basketball you’re going to boost you’re total number of bids and appear more on par with the large 14 member conferences like the ACC, Big Ten, and SEC.

I think Dayton and St Louis can help with that in the Midwest and on the East Coast someone like Richmond, VCU, UMass, or a Catholic school like Duquesne could enhance the overall image of the conference.

Presto! 14 team conference.


I responded:

Bingo. And if the five comprehensive power conferences get reduced to four and each goes to 16 teams ... And each of the four lands, say, nine to 11 teams each year in the tourney compared to the 11-team Big East getting, say, five to seven ... the perception thing becomes even more glaring. A 14-team Big East will get seven to eight (and maybe even nine) every year.

Yea, that's a logical argument. I guess I was so obsessed with the round robin I failed to see the forest for the trees, lol.

Would Dayton definitely get enough votes to get into the conference? I'm not sure if you simply need a majority or a super majority to get approved as a member. I know Xavier might have an issue with them joining, but I don't think the conference as a whole would reject them so I think they're a logical candidate as a 12th team.

SLU I'm not as sold on. I remember them making a solid tourney run back in like 2012 (sweet 16 iirc) but other than that they've always seemed like an NIT team at best. How many times have they made the tourney since 2012? I would look but halftime of the UConn Temple game is coming to an end.

Would personally love to have WSU in the league as a 13th since they have a natural rivalry with Creighton. I know they're a public and not a private school but they're a basketball crazed fan base and fit from that perspective

And if the BE invited UD and SLU, that could make (at least in theory) VCU more likely to want to jump to the American.

I'm a fan of SLU. Fondly recall their days in Conference USA with Memphis, Cincy and DePaul. Would strongly like to have them in the BE. It just makes sense.

As to Wichita ... not sure the BE would want. If the league wants to go to 14 and takes Dayton and Saint Louis, it might want a 14th program located in the EST zone for balance. At that point, I feel UMass could be an excellent choice (to pair with UConn, in a sense).

Again, I'm on record with wanting both the Big East and AAC to have 14 members.

Even before Wichita State was invited to the AAC, there was a close-to-zero chance of the Shockers ever getting an invitation to the Big East. The academics and institutional fit were just not there. WSU accepts over 90% of its applicants and is ranked #293-#381 in national universities, which would have been by far the lowest ranked school in the conference. The "old" success that the Big East even brands itself on was not very high either (they went 18 straight years without a tournament appearance, and four appearances in a span of 35 years - between 1988-2013). Probably most importantly, they do not carry a strong alumni/fan base in the NE, which was a big factor in selecting Creighton, for example, in 2012.

They have risen to a strong program, no doubt, under Gregg Marshall. They are a good fit in the AAC. It will be interesting to see what level of success the next head coach will have there after Marshall inevitably departs/retires.

Seems we're all on the same page regarding this. UD and SLU are well suited for the Big East (and not at all for the AAC) and WSU is, likewise, well suited for the American (and minimally, if at all, for the BE).

As I noted in a previous post, IF (a big if) the BE invites UD and SLU down the road, that would spur VCU (in theory) to become more interested in the AAC. It is probably intrigued by the thought currently but needs some "incentive" to jump; a weakened A10 would perhaps provide that incentive.

(02-21-2020 12:21 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  Seems we're all on the same page regarding this. UD and SLU are well suited for the Big East (and not at all for the AAC) and WSU is, likewise, well suited for the American (and minimally, if at all, for the BE).

As I noted in a previous post, IF (a big if) the BE invites UD and SLU down the road, that would spur VCU (in theory) to become more interested in the AAC. It is probably intrigued by the thought currently but needs some "incentive" to jump; a weakened A10 would perhaps provide that incentive.

Just went and looked into SLU a bit more. Didn't realize they were a top 100 undergrad school, and completely forgot they made the tourney last year. I can see now why you all see them as a good fit

(02-21-2020 01:21 PM)Nameless Wrote:  

(02-21-2020 12:21 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  Seems we're all on the same page regarding this. UD and SLU are well suited for the Big East (and not at all for the AAC) and WSU is, likewise, well suited for the American (and minimally, if at all, for the BE).

As I noted in a previous post, IF (a big if) the BE invites UD and SLU down the road, that would spur VCU (in theory) to become more interested in the AAC. It is probably intrigued by the thought currently but needs some "incentive" to jump; a weakened A10 would perhaps provide that incentive.

Just went and looked into SLU a bit more. Didn't realize they were a top 100 undergrad school, and completely forgot they made the tourney last year. I can see now why you all see them as a good fit

SLU is a fine school in a city that has no pro hoops and no university with DI football. Its fans (and many in the city in general) would rally around the Billikens via the excitement that would come from Big East membership. My sister-in-law attended WashU in St. Louis and loves the city. I'm a fan too. Schlafly beer is strong.