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The Great Do-Over
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schmolik Offline
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Post: #41
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-15-2020 04:33 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  What would be PSU's top 10 under the criteria I laid out?

(Old School)
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Notre Dame
Not sure about West Virginia

(Big Ten)
Ohio State
Michigan
Maryland

I think Rutgers is beneath us.

Can't really think of others.
02-15-2020 04:45 PM
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bigblueblindness Offline
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Post: #42
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-15-2020 11:34 AM)schmolik Wrote:  I'm trying to think about doing the same thing for Penn State and Illinois and I'm not sure who would be #1 on either list. I don't know how most Illini think but I'd rather Northwestern not be in the same conference. I personally would like to have Pitt in Penn State's conference but I'm sure many PSU fans/alum don't. I'll bet both Penn State and Illinois want both Ohio State and Michigan though. I would think Illinois would want Missouri.

Maybe if we really wanted a true "do-over", let the real power players be the ones picking.

Big Ten: Ohio State and Michigan
SEC: Alabama
Big 12: Texas and Oklahoma
Pac 12: USC? UCLA?
ACC: North Carolina?

Limit them to 12 teams apiece and the top 60 make the cut in the "P5". Multiple conferences can choose the same school and the school chosen can pick which conference they want, forcing the other conference/school to choose again.

Here is my shot at PSU and Illinois:

PSU top 10 (and it has to be a reciprocal feeling):

Indiana
Kentucky
Maryland
Michigan
Michigan State
Ohio State
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Virginia
Virginia Tech

A PSU fan may correct me that West Virginia, Rutgers, or North Carolina could replace one of these schools, but I've never picked up the vibe that they are very aligned with those schools compared to the ones listed above.

Top 10 for Illinois (again, it has to be reciprocal):

Indiana
Iowa
Kansas (primarily because I think Kansas would prefer Big 10 west schools over many of the current Big 12 schools in this do-over scenario)
Michigan
Minnesota
Missouri
Nebraska
Ohio State (I think this is a barely from OSU's perspective)
Wisconsin
#10 - I don't know Illinois well enough to decide among Northwestern, Purdue, or Michigan State. Northwestern seems to be a complete hot or cold relationship with most Illini I know. I think all three would pick Illinois.
02-15-2020 04:48 PM
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EvilVodka Offline
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Post: #43
RE: The Great Do-Over
In fantasy land of the Great Do-over, the SWC has long talks with Arkansas before they head to the SEC, and they agree to invite FSU and Miami.

The SWC becomes the top conference, and eventually they add Oklahoma and Nebraska from the Big 8 and LSU and Alabama from the SEC

The SWC boasts Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, LSU, Alabama, FSU, and Miami

Georgia, Florida, and Tennessee eventually join the ACC
02-15-2020 04:49 PM
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bigblueblindness Offline
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Post: #44
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-15-2020 04:45 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(02-15-2020 04:33 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  What would be PSU's top 10 under the criteria I laid out?

(Old School)
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Notre Dame
Not sure about West Virginia

(Big Ten)
Ohio State
Michigan
Maryland

I think Rutgers is beneath us.

Can't really think of others.

Posted my guess before I read your post... I was close! I did not have Notre Dame, but that one makes sense for both sides.
02-15-2020 04:51 PM
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Mav Offline
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Post: #45
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-13-2020 06:39 PM)usffan Wrote:  Instead of the people deciding what their dream conference is, imagine instead that somehow all conferences were given the chance to essentially reboot. In this imaginary world, I would have to assume that the first coalitions that would start to re-form would be around the core of the Big Ten (focusing on large midwestern state schools), the SEC (I'm thinking Alabama/Auburn/Florida/Georgia immediately form an alliance), the west coast (USC/UCLA/Cal/Stanford/Oregon/Washington), the southwest (Oklahoma/Texas) and Tobacco Road (UNC/Duke). The question becomes, now freed free to form conferences of the size they wish and without legacy programs, what do you think would become of these conferences?

Personally, I would think the Big Ten lets Rutgers, Maryland, Nebraska and Northwestern and becomes a 10 team conference.

The Pac-12 lets Oregon State and Washington State go and also becomes a 10 team conference.

The SEC has a more substantial reorganization, letting the Mississippi schools, Arkansas and Vanderbilt become free agents and makes a play for Clemson and FSU (both of whom I think would jump at the chance), becoming a 12 team conference. The unknown is what becomes of Mizzou and Texas A&M, because...

I think the Big 12 would drastically change, with Nebraska and Arkansas joining up with Texas, Oklahoma, OK State and Kansas. That's 6 teams, and they'd be able to pick up who they actually want. Could they entice Mizzou and TAMU back for that? Not sure.

The question becomes what becomes of the Tobacco Road schools? I think FSU and Clemson would jump in a heartbeat. Who would they pick up? For sure they'd get back together with Maryland. But how else it would play out would be interesting...

USFFan
If there was a do-over Nebraska wouldn't let Texas even sniff the Big 8. They would have let Arkansas in and looked at how to get to 10. My money would be on raiding the old WAC to keep Colorado happy.
02-16-2020 12:44 PM
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schmolik Offline
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Post: #46
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-16-2020 12:44 PM)Mav Wrote:  If there was a do-over Nebraska wouldn't let Texas even sniff the Big 8. They would have let Arkansas in and looked at how to get to 10. My money would be on raiding the old WAC to keep Colorado happy.

Well the two power players in the old Big 8 (at least from a football standpoint) were Nebraska and Oklahoma. We can certainly guess that Oklahoma would want Texas. Colorado was becoming more of a factor in the later years leading up to the Texas invite, would they have been for or against Texas? I don't think anyone back in the early 90's would have known Texas would become what they would become in the 2010's though. In the 90's, I would find it hard to believe Nebraska wouldn't have wanted Texas in the conference. Any conference that would invite Arkansas and say Utah over Texas (assuming geographically equally feasible) would be financially stupid.

On the other hand, the rest of the Big 8 probably should have held firm and said to Texas and Texas A&M that Texas Tech and Baylor weren't welcome. That's probably what hurt Nebraska, it gave Texas two other Texas schools/allies in conference and as said before split up the Nebraska/Oklahoma rivalry.
02-16-2020 02:19 PM
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whittx Offline
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Post: #47
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-14-2020 04:33 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(02-14-2020 08:58 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 09:40 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 09:22 PM)NBPirate Wrote:  People mention the Mississippi schools and it’s odd. As previously mentioned, they’re founding schools in the SEC. Ole Miss has won national championships and recently won a Sugar Bowl in football with a 100+ million dollar budget. Sheesh. Get a grip.

Football isn't everything. Athletics isn't everything. Academics, geography, and demographics matter. Well at least to the Big Ten. I'm not sure they do to the SEC. Florida State isn't good enough for the SEC but not one but two schools in Mississippi are? Florida should just join the ACC then. Academically and demographically they're more of an ACC school than an SEC school and they can actually play men's basketball.

And I'm not big on history. Why are Kansas State, Iowa State, and Mississippi State "good enough" but Illinois State not good enough? Because they were back before most of us were born?

Illinois St. was a teacher's college. It was an Illinois directional with a better name. The 3 you mention are all land grant colleges-originally Kansas A&M, Mississippi A&M-not sure if Iowa St. was an "A&M" or if they were always "State."

Being a former teaching college is not a dealbreaker.

UCLA was a teacher's college until 1919 (it joined the PCC in 1928). Arizona State was a teacher's college until 1945. Florida State was mostly a teacher's college until 1947.

Also, Illinois State wasn't just a teacher's college. It was the best teacher's college in the country. Still is today. That quality is what has allowed it grow on par with many research institutions over the past 5 years, at a time when most teacher's colleges nationwide have been shrinking.

ISU has 220,000 living alumni, on par with most of the ACC and Big 12.
To be correct, FSU spent 42 years as a women's college. Prior to that, they were co-equal to what became UF.
02-16-2020 07:29 PM
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whittx Offline
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Post: #48
RE: The Great Do-Over
If we are going to have mulligans, mine would involve SUNY going all-in on major sports when Buffalo transitioned to a public university. They were an independent public flagship that probably would have been invited to the Joe Pa conference in the early 80's or had gotten an A-10 invite for non-football. Based on this, UB would probably have gotten a Big East invite in the early 1990's or, worst case, in the early 2000's and would be an AAC program now. Instead, they were set back 25 years and forced to drop to D3 in the late 70's due to decisions made in Albany.
02-16-2020 07:47 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #49
RE: The Great Do-Over
Ooh! I’m intrigued by the Big 8 taking a different direction in expansion:

Arkansas
BYU
Utah
????

I think this results in Texas and TAMU eventually in the SEC. Maybe TTU too.

Maybe TCU becomes the Big 8 (12)’s 12th member. Maybe others from the SWC move north too.

The WAC lets in some more Big West schools to fill the voids.
02-16-2020 09:32 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #50
RE: The Great Do-Over
Using the Pick 10 method above:

Auburn
Clemson
Duke
Florida State
Georgia
North Carolina
South Carolina
Tennessee
Vanderbilt
Virginia Tech
02-17-2020 07:43 PM
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Rube Dali Offline
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Post: #51
RE: The Great Do-Over
A Gopher do-over:

Wisconsin
Iowa
Nebraska
Illinois
Indiana
Michigan
Ohio State
Kansas
Missouri
Kentucky

Choices reflect a preference for schools that are both the flagship and the land grant(Iowa and Michigan are the exceptions, but both were chosen as flagship schools).
(This post was last modified: 02-18-2020 09:46 AM by Rube Dali.)
02-18-2020 09:45 AM
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DawgNBama Offline
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Post: #52
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-15-2020 06:54 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(02-15-2020 05:46 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 09:40 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 09:22 PM)NBPirate Wrote:  People mention the Mississippi schools and it’s odd. As previously mentioned, they’re founding schools in the SEC. Ole Miss has won national championships and recently won a Sugar Bowl in football with a 100+ million dollar budget. Sheesh. Get a grip.

Football isn't everything. Athletics isn't everything. Academics, geography, and demographics matter. Well at least to the Big Ten. I'm not sure they do to the SEC. Florida State isn't good enough for the SEC but not one but two schools in Mississippi are? Florida should just join the ACC then. Academically and demographically they're more of an ACC school than an SEC school and they can actually play men's basketball.

And I'm not big on history. Why are Kansas State, Iowa State, and Mississippi State "good enough" but Illinois State not good enough? Because they were back before most of us were borne?

Better question, schmolik: why was the University of Illinois chosen to be both the flagship university for the state of Illinois and the land grant institution for the state of Illinois?? Why wasn't Illinois State made the land grant institution for the state of Illinois???

I have no idea. How old do you think I am?

Hey, I'm frustrated certain schools are haves and certain schools are have nots and certain rivals aren't in the same conference (ex. Florida and Florida State) and won't play each other in football (ex Penn State and Pitt). History seems to be the convenient answer for everything ... until Texas A&M left the Big 12 for the SEC (speaking of rivals that won't play each other in football).

There are different reasons for the have and have nots, schmolik.
In some cases, the have nots got hosed by their respective states, whereas others were treated fairly.

Best example I can think of- when the Morrill Act was passed, the state of Ohio already had 2 public universities, the University of Ohio and Miami University of Ohio. Rather than giving either of the current schools the option to be the state of Ohio's land grant school or pick either one to be the state's flagship institution, the state of Ohio chose to create a new university in Columbus to be both the state's land grant and flagship institution.

I imagine something similar happened with Illinois and Illinois State, considering that Illinois State actually predated the University of Illinois.

I'm guessing the thinking back then was most guys would attend either the flagship, the land grant institution, or a private school. It was assumed, I guess, that a lot of guys wouldn't be interested in going to smaller public teachers colleges and universities. So, while the flagship and the land grant were rolling in the $$'s, the smaller colleges be got the shaft. That's why I said what I said about Illinois and Illinois State.
02-20-2020 12:45 PM
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Illini60940 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-14-2020 04:33 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(02-14-2020 08:58 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 09:40 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 09:22 PM)NBPirate Wrote:  People mention the Mississippi schools and it’s odd. As previously mentioned, they’re founding schools in the SEC. Ole Miss has won national championships and recently won a Sugar Bowl in football with a 100+ million dollar budget. Sheesh. Get a grip.

Football isn't everything. Athletics isn't everything. Academics, geography, and demographics matter. Well at least to the Big Ten. I'm not sure they do to the SEC. Florida State isn't good enough for the SEC but not one but two schools in Mississippi are? Florida should just join the ACC then. Academically and demographically they're more of an ACC school than an SEC school and they can actually play men's basketball.

And I'm not big on history. Why are Kansas State, Iowa State, and Mississippi State "good enough" but Illinois State not good enough? Because they were back before most of us were born?

Illinois St. was a teacher's college. It was an Illinois directional with a better name. The 3 you mention are all land grant colleges-originally Kansas A&M, Mississippi A&M-not sure if Iowa St. was an "A&M" or if they were always "State."

Being a former teaching college is not a dealbreaker.

UCLA was a teacher's college until 1919 (it joined the PCC in 1928). Arizona State was a teacher's college until 1945. Florida State was mostly a teacher's college until 1947.

Also, Illinois State wasn't just a teacher's college. It was the best teacher's college in the country. Still is today. That quality is what has allowed it grow on par with many research institutions over the past 5 years, at a time when most teacher's colleges nationwide have been shrinking.

ISU has 220,000 living alumni, on par with most of the ACC and Big 12.

I have long thought the state of Illinois needs to pump up Illinois State so it can become equal to schools such as Iowa St and Kansas St, a state this size it makes no sense its not. They have made great strides down in Bloomington-Normal, maybe one day they will get there.
02-21-2020 09:44 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #54
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-21-2020 09:44 AM)Illini60940 Wrote:  
(02-14-2020 04:33 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(02-14-2020 08:58 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 09:40 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 09:22 PM)NBPirate Wrote:  People mention the Mississippi schools and it’s odd. As previously mentioned, they’re founding schools in the SEC. Ole Miss has won national championships and recently won a Sugar Bowl in football with a 100+ million dollar budget. Sheesh. Get a grip.

Football isn't everything. Athletics isn't everything. Academics, geography, and demographics matter. Well at least to the Big Ten. I'm not sure they do to the SEC. Florida State isn't good enough for the SEC but not one but two schools in Mississippi are? Florida should just join the ACC then. Academically and demographically they're more of an ACC school than an SEC school and they can actually play men's basketball.

And I'm not big on history. Why are Kansas State, Iowa State, and Mississippi State "good enough" but Illinois State not good enough? Because they were back before most of us were born?

Illinois St. was a teacher's college. It was an Illinois directional with a better name. The 3 you mention are all land grant colleges-originally Kansas A&M, Mississippi A&M-not sure if Iowa St. was an "A&M" or if they were always "State."

Being a former teaching college is not a dealbreaker.

UCLA was a teacher's college until 1919 (it joined the PCC in 1928). Arizona State was a teacher's college until 1945. Florida State was mostly a teacher's college until 1947.

Also, Illinois State wasn't just a teacher's college. It was the best teacher's college in the country. Still is today. That quality is what has allowed it grow on par with many research institutions over the past 5 years, at a time when most teacher's colleges nationwide have been shrinking.

ISU has 220,000 living alumni, on par with most of the ACC and Big 12.

I have long thought the state of Illinois needs to pump up Illinois State so it can become equal to schools such as Iowa St and Kansas St, a state this size it makes no sense its not. They have made great strides down in Bloomington-Normal, maybe one day they will get there.

UIC appears to be taking that role - that is the school that's actually growing rapidly in the state (whereas enrollment at the directional schools has plummeted) and they have long been well-respected from an academic research perspective (particularly in the STEM areas that are increasingly important). It just probably will never be a "rah rah" sports school. If there's an aspirational model school for UIC, it would be UC-San Diego as a large urban public institution with top tier STEM research capabilities.
(This post was last modified: 02-21-2020 10:28 AM by Frank the Tank.)
02-21-2020 10:27 AM
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Keswick_Crusaders_Forever51 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: The Great Do-Over
So based on all criteria previously given, here's Florida's Do Over for the SEC:

Alabama
Auburn
Florida State
Georgia
Kentucky
LSU
Ole Miss
Tennessee
Vanderbilt

I picked Vanderbilt over some of the other options due to their kinship in academics, plus the history as original SEC brethren. Next would likely be Clemson & then either Georgia Tech, Miami, Mississippi State, or South Carolina.
02-21-2020 10:28 AM
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Illini60940 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-21-2020 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(02-21-2020 09:44 AM)Illini60940 Wrote:  
(02-14-2020 04:33 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(02-14-2020 08:58 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 09:40 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Football isn't everything. Athletics isn't everything. Academics, geography, and demographics matter. Well at least to the Big Ten. I'm not sure they do to the SEC. Florida State isn't good enough for the SEC but not one but two schools in Mississippi are? Florida should just join the ACC then. Academically and demographically they're more of an ACC school than an SEC school and they can actually play men's basketball.

And I'm not big on history. Why are Kansas State, Iowa State, and Mississippi State "good enough" but Illinois State not good enough? Because they were back before most of us were born?

Illinois St. was a teacher's college. It was an Illinois directional with a better name. The 3 you mention are all land grant colleges-originally Kansas A&M, Mississippi A&M-not sure if Iowa St. was an "A&M" or if they were always "State."

Being a former teaching college is not a dealbreaker.

UCLA was a teacher's college until 1919 (it joined the PCC in 1928). Arizona State was a teacher's college until 1945. Florida State was mostly a teacher's college until 1947.

Also, Illinois State wasn't just a teacher's college. It was the best teacher's college in the country. Still is today. That quality is what has allowed it grow on par with many research institutions over the past 5 years, at a time when most teacher's colleges nationwide have been shrinking.

ISU has 220,000 living alumni, on par with most of the ACC and Big 12.

I have long thought the state of Illinois needs to pump up Illinois State so it can become equal to schools such as Iowa St and Kansas St, a state this size it makes no sense its not. They have made great strides down in Bloomington-Normal, maybe one day they will get there.

UIC appears to be taking that role - that is the school that's actually growing rapidly in the state (whereas enrollment at the directional schools has plummeted) and they have long been well-respected from an academic research perspective (particularly in the STEM areas that are increasingly important). It just probably will never be a "rah rah" sports school. If there's an aspirational model school for UIC, it would be UC-San Diego as a large urban public institution with top tier STEM research capabilities.

UIC is a great school with a great location, but such a commuter college, with like you say really no school spirit..

But UICU, UIC and ISU are certainly the trio that's carrying the states college system and do a very good job despite the states financial issues.
02-21-2020 10:33 AM
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Post: #57
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-18-2020 09:45 AM)Rube Dali Wrote:  A Gopher do-over:

Wisconsin
Iowa
Nebraska
Illinois
Indiana
Michigan
Ohio State
Kansas
Missouri
Kentucky

Choices reflect a preference for schools that are both the flagship and the land grant(Iowa and Michigan are the exceptions, but both were chosen as flagship schools).

Kansas is not a land grant school. That would be Kansas State.
02-21-2020 11:03 AM
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Post: #58
RE: The Great Do-Over
(02-18-2020 09:45 AM)Rube Dali Wrote:  A Gopher do-over:

Wisconsin
Iowa
Nebraska
Illinois
Indiana
Michigan
Ohio State
Kansas
Missouri
Kentucky

Choices reflect a preference for schools that are both the flagship and the land grant(Iowa and Michigan are the exceptions, but both were chosen as flagship schools).

Kansas is not a land grant school. That would be Kansas State.
02-22-2020 07:01 PM
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