(02-11-2020 12:15 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-11-2020 12:02 PM)esayem Wrote:  I’m pretty sure DePaul was the last to commit to the Great Midwest.

Dayton joined in 1993, everyone else in 1991. DePaul was a founding member.

Yes, but if you go back to the articles written at the time DePaul was the last school to commit. The rest of the league was established and waiting on DePaul. DePaul was sort of wavering on what they wanted to do because they had a few options on the table from what I remember.

Well, you asked...

USFFan

(02-11-2020 09:45 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  If UD were in Cleveland they would not have the ravenous fan base they currently have. Dayton has a great fan base because they don't have pro sports in town.

Well, to be fair if they were the same distance from downtown Cleveland that they presently are from downtown Cincinnati, 50 miles, they'd be between Canton and Akron. So they are just about the same distance from the Bengals and Reds as Akron and Kent State are from the Browns, Indians and Cavs.

Of course, there is one big difference there for basketball ... Akron is more Cavs country than Zips or Golden Flashes country as far as basketball goes.

Quote: That's not even getting into the whole Ohio State obsession up there (which may exist in southwest Ohio for football to an extent, but is non-existent in hoops).

I got much less of a Buckeyes basketball vibe in Northeast Ohio than in Central Ohio.

But the point remains, it's not "a team in Ohio" that X and UC object to, it's a team in southwest Ohio. If it was a private Catholic University in Akron or Toledo or Zanesville that had Dayton's success in basketball, they wouldn't have the same objection to it entering either the Big East or the AAC.

(02-11-2020 12:07 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The Catholic/Private school league that should have been:

Detroit Mercy
Dayton
Xavier
Butler
Notre Dame
DePaul
Marquette
St Louis
Creighton
Drake

if 11, then perhaps add Loyola.

I’m one of the few Xavier fans, that would like to be in a conference with UD again. Local games are just more fun because you can trash talk with friends, family members and coworkers that follow the other team.

The Positives-Honestly Dayton checks a lot of a boxes. They have a long history with X, DePaul and Marquette. They are the premier basketball team in a decent size market, and they own that market in much the same way that Creighton owns Omaha. They have great fan support even in down years, and they travel to follow the team. UD arena is a great place to watch a game, if you are not wearing X gear. Outside their brief time in the Great Midwest, they have been a team in the upper half of their conference. They are also trending up in the A10, which is still a solid league

The Negatives - There really aren’t a lot. First for the conference to add them it has to make sense financially, I’m not sure if Fox would be willing to shell out the money to make it work. But given how Dayton owns their market and the fact that they watch more than just Dayton basketball, maybe it’s worth it to Fox. The next negative they have is with X and Butler so close they don’t offer new recruiting area. This is not the same as having Seton Hall St. John’s and Villanova so close to each other since the population is so much larger there. Another negative is perception,casual fans determine how good you are by what conference you are in. There are exceptions, such as Gonzaga but they are few and far between. Dayton is on the right path with the performance this year and their recent elite eight run. The key is for them to sustain this success and force the Big East to invite them. The only other roadblock is the end of double round robin. As a fan I love the double round robin, not sure how much the decision makers care.

There are a few pipe dream schools that the Big East Schools would add right away,Syracuse, ND, Duke, or BC. Those schools are never coming so there is the next group that is probably the leading candidates for expansion

Dayton
VCU
St. Louis
maybe Duquesne
maybe Loyola Chicago
Maybe St Joe’s

Then a list of long shots that would have to go on a run better than Butler

Detroit
Fordham
Holy Cross
Siena
Canisus
Boston U
Northwestern
UMass

Personally I think expansion will come when a team separates it self from the pack and the media dollars will force the leagues to add someone. My Bet is Dayton or St Louis at least 10 Years from now

I think Dayton ends up in MVC, maybe with St Lious, when A-10 implodes

(02-11-2020 12:49 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  I think Dayton ends up in MVC, maybe with St Lious, when A-10 implodes

Why would that happen? It’s strictly a basketball conference that doesn’t have to worry about keeping football programs happy. When the CAA watered themselves down for football programs, the A10 happily took their crown jewel.

It's not what they have to do, it's what they have to be. Butler was on the A-10 and BE radars for some time because that's how college conference expansion works; school presidents and conference executives don't just look up from swirling brandy in their book-lined studies to see Butler in the Final Four and go By George, that Butler school is playing the basketball ever so well, we should invite them to join our consortium. Or however school presidents talk, I dunno.

Dayton and St. Louis have more or less closed their cases; they're Catholic universities in urban Midwest areas and are academically and institutionally congruous with the Big East (outside of UConn, who knew the BE schools Back In The Day and get a de facto grandfathering past the no-public-schools bulwark). Success is nice but unless we're talking Gonzaga-level sustained excellence, wins and titles won't really change the argument for or against.

Move the campus to Detroit. Same answer for Gonzaga.

Dayton has a 60% acceptance rate. My god. I hope Georgetown leaves before that happens.

As a DePaul and Georgetown follower, I would be 100 percent fine with Dayton, Saint Louis or both to the Big East. I do feel the BE needs a 12th program (for various reasons).

Dayton is much more "BE ready" than SLU given its impressive attendance and fan base. But both would bring much to the table.

I enjoyed having Dayton and SLU (and Marquette and UAB, for that matter) in the old Great Midwest with DePaul, Memphis and Cincy. Ah, those days are long gone ...

(02-11-2020 01:10 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-11-2020 12:49 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  I think Dayton ends up in MVC, maybe with St Lious, when A-10 implodes

Why would that happen? It’s strictly a basketball conference that doesn’t have to worry about keeping football programs happy. When the CAA watered themselves down for football programs, the A10 happily took their crown jewel.

It's a very strange thought people have about the A10. If the A10 fails, it won't be because it implodes, it'll be because:

UMass figured something out in football and gets invited to an all sports conference we want to be in.
VCU/Dayton/SLU all leave at once for a better basketball only conference.

Even that would only get you down to 10 teams, and those 10 teams would likely mostly be okay with staying in a conference with each other. Some of them even have a decent basketball history. URI (as much as I hate to say it about them), along with Davidson, Richmond, GW, and St Joes would still be a decent conference core. Sure, it wouldn't be as good as it is today, but it would still be a better option than most others for the teams still in there.

GoldenWarrior hit the nail on the head when he noted that Wichita State was given an AAC invite for hoops because AAC hoops was underperforming.

So the answer regarding Dayton is likely to be "when the Big East starts to suck".

Of course, in that case the Big East should look to the AAC experience, as the AAC hasn't gotten much better since adding WSU.

(02-11-2020 07:26 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It took 2 national title appearances for Butler to get noticed by the A-10 and then the BE.

What does Dayton have to do to prove that they are worthy?

The BE could have taken Dayton at any time since the split, but has consistently passed on making that move. Dayton can move to Pittsburg or Cleveland or some other big city in the BE footprint. Otherwise, it is pretty clear that the BE isn't going to double up in an existing market.

The AAC's underwhelming results in men's basketball have been glaring at times. And that is one reason I would like to see the league add VCU.

Football in the American, in contrast, has fared better than I would have expected when the league was formed.

Baseball has achieved about what I expected. Very solid and respectable results but not outstanding.

The Big East might stand pat at 11. But if each of the comprehensive P5 increases its membership rosters to 14 to 16 programs, I would think the BE will take at least one school (if not two) to counter. An 11-team BE would not want to typically get five to seven teams in the NCAA tourney if, say, a 16-team Big Ten, ACC or SEC is annually getting nine to 10. The optics would not be good.

And perception is important.

Dayton and Cincinnati are different markets.

(02-11-2020 07:49 PM)Go College Sports Wrote:  Dayton and Cincinnati are different markets.

Just barely as far as TV is concerned. The last 5 years they have been talking about combining the DMA every few months.

(02-11-2020 09:55 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Patience.

Dayton (much like SLU) just needs to be patient and continue to invest in itself and attempt to create a sustainable competitive men's basketball program that competes for tournament births annually. Both institutions have strongly invested in itself in the past several years - undergoing arena renovations, hiring proven/winning coaches and improved recruiting. Stay the course and history will work itself out. Xavier's success is not predicated on Dayton's, and - despite their proximity - both programs have incredibly strong fan support and modern arenas.

The fact remains is that no one knows how the 20-game power conference schedule will end up affecting leagues and bids/seeds. It will need a cycle (~5 years) to have an in-depth and quantitative look to see how it affects everyone. I've always thought a 12-team/18-game basketball league structure was optimal, but who knows how the landscape will end up being changed. The Big East, for years, had 14+ teams. From 2005-2012, the league had 16 teams. Long-term, nothing would be more exciting that to have another 14/16 team basketball league that had shared institutional identity and, top-to-bottom, strong basketball programs annually. One of the long(er)-term goals of the Big East should be to expand to get back to the large format of the BET which hosted 15 games, and eight different sessions.

Inevitably, Dayton (and/or SLU, or whomever) will need to show a clear separation from themselves within the A10 - and not just a one-year showing, but sustained break IMO.

I agree, I think it's short sighted to think the BE will always sit at 11. I think Val Ackerman is a forward thinking commissioner and if the landscape of college sports changes like the P5 shrinking to a P4 with larger conferences than she will make the decision to expand and convince the presidents it's the right move. I also think institutional fit will be one of the key factors and that will help SLU and Dayton but I think basketball will be in the mix as well and with that VCU would be a legit possibility. If the powers grow larger than I think the reluctance to the Gonzaga location issue will dissipate.

If it's an expansion to 12 look for SLU. If it's to 14 look for SLU, Gonzaga, VCU. If it's 16 then SLU, Gonzaga, VCU, Dayton and then who the hell knows.

I thought Xavier and Butler were a package deal when it came
time for the Big East. Similar to Xavier’s support for them in the A10. Xavier really liked having them along.

Location probably doesn’t help Dayton. I would hope their down years in parts of the 80’s and 90’s don’t follow them today, but, current Big East members knew a different Dayton back then.

(02-11-2020 07:49 PM)Go College Sports Wrote:  Dayton and Cincinnati are different markets.

From Xavier's Cintas Center to UD Arena is about 50 minutes. Word is that the Cincinnati and Dayton TV markets will soon be combined into one. Regardless, Xavier and UC ain't gonna give UD an even break if they can help it. Dayton Flyer Basketball puts 13K+ in their arena every night, and tickets are going for over 100 bucks on the secondary market. They've been top 30 in home attendance for the last 20 years...I'm a UC fan and think it's a shame how UC and Xavier big league UD.