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For our socialist friends
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #41
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 08:38 AM)VA49er Wrote:  What are all the Bernie supporters going to do when Bernie comes to them to pay for everything? Remember, there is no way in hades that the taxing the "rich" more will pay for everything Bernie wants to give away for free.

Bernie has already sorta admitted that he is going to have to tax everybody more--a lot more.

The problem is that he is going to go after the "rich" first. If he were elected, they would have from election day to inauguration day to get their affairs in order to minimize exposure to Bernie's taxes, and a bit longer until he could actually get anything through congress. And some of them by getting started if and when he got the nomination, particularly stuff that was reversible. That's plenty of time. Capital flight can happen in a hurry when the threat is real.

I have a friend who grew up in a ranch in Zimbabwe. When Mugabe took over, his father bought some land in Brazil in a hurry and they flew their prized cattle out in chartered 747s. That was not cheap, but scared money runs fast.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2020 12:25 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
02-11-2020 12:24 PM
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Kronke Offline
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Post: #42
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 07:48 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 01:29 AM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  ... you realize other countries have Medicare for all systems right?

You realize that they don't, right?

Don't pester him with facts. Once he realized that broad, regurgitated talking points & platitudes wasn't going to win the argument, he was "out".
02-11-2020 12:50 PM
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Ohio Poly Offline
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Post: #43
RE: For our socialist friends
Bernie Sanders
@SenSanders

Remember: our "crazy idea" of universal health care is a reality in:

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Canada
Chile
Czech Rep.
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Portugal
S. Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switz.
Turkey
U.K.
02-13-2020 10:38 AM
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shere khan Offline
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Post: #44
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-13-2020 10:38 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  Bernie Sanders
@SenSanders

Remember: our "crazy idea" of universal health care is a reality in:

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Canada
Chile
Czech Rep.
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Portugal
S. Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switz.
Turkey
U.K.

What do all the countries have in common?
02-13-2020 10:42 AM
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49RFootballNow Online
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Post: #45
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-13-2020 10:42 AM)shere khan Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 10:38 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  Bernie Sanders
@SenSanders

Remember: our "crazy idea" of universal health care is a reality in:

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Canada
Chile
Czech Rep.
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Portugal
S. Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switz.
Turkey
U.K.

What do all the countries have in common?

Other than the fact that all of them are at best significantly less than half the population size of the United States? I'd guess most could formally or semi-formally rely on us to defend them against Russia or China in a war.
02-13-2020 10:52 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #46
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-13-2020 10:38 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  Bernie Sanders
@SenSanders
Remember: our "crazy idea" of universal health care is a reality in:
Australia
Austria
Belgium
Canada
Chile
Czech Rep.
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Portugal
S. Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switz.
Turkey
U.K.

Not exactly, at least not in the monolithic sense that this would seem to imply.

There are many different systems, some good, some not so good. Of the list, France, Germany, Japan, Netherlands, and Switzerland all follow some versions of the Bismarck universal private health care/insurance model. They are generally regarded as the best systems in the world. For one example, France, Germany, and Japan were the only three countries with more than 60 million people who ranked ahead of the USA in the 2000 WHO study where the US was determined to have what has been erroneously described as the "37th best" health care in the world.

They are very different from the single-payer (Canada) or single-provider (most of the rest) models.

I would favor going to Bismarck. I would oppose going to single-payer or single-provider.
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2020 10:56 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
02-13-2020 10:54 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #47
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-13-2020 10:42 AM)shere khan Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 10:38 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  Bernie Sanders
@SenSanders
Remember: our "crazy idea" of universal health care is a reality in:
Australia
Austria
Belgium
Canada
Chile
Czech Rep.
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Portugal
S. Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switz.
Turkey
U.K.
What do all the countries have in common?

Not their health care systems, for one thing.
02-13-2020 10:57 AM
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SuperFlyBCat Online
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Post: #48
RE: For our socialist friends
The United States spends more on health care than any other country in the world, and a large share of that spending comes from the federal government. In 2017, the United States spent about $3.5 trillion, or 18 percent of GDP, on health expenditures – more than twice the average among developed countries.

https://www.crfb.org/papers/american-hea...ral-budget
02-13-2020 11:21 AM
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SuperFlyBCat Online
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Post: #49
RE: For our socialist friends
Compared to our friends up North, The Canadian government spends about 6K on healthcare per resident per year, the USA almost 12K per resident. The average Canadian family of 2 adults 2 minors, income of 120K is taxed about 12K for the cost of public health insurance.
02-13-2020 11:29 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #50
RE: For our socialist friends
But Canada's system doesn't really stack up that well. In The WHO study where the USA ranked 37th, Canada was 30th. Not really much better. And that study weighted equality and price more heavily than quality, by about 3 to 1, so the grading scale was weighed heavily in favor and other single-payer or single-provider systems.

Stories of Canadians coming here for procedures that they can't get in timely fashion at home are quite numerous.
02-13-2020 11:52 AM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #51
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-13-2020 11:21 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  The United States spends more on health care than any other country in the world, and a large share of that spending comes from the federal government. In 2017, the United States spent about $3.5 trillion, or 18 percent of GDP, on health expenditures – more than twice the average among developed countries.

https://www.crfb.org/papers/american-hea...ral-budget

I truly don't understand why certain STATES don't implement the type of healthcare system they want.

I think we should follow the EU model of healthcare. There is no EU one-size-fits-all health care system. It's a state issue. Spain, Denmark, Ireland, Austria, and Belgium each have their own, unique healthcare systems, despite the fact that it is a common market with no restrictive borders and free movement of people and goods within the EU market.

Each EU member state has its own healthcare eligibility requirements and systems. And, I note that even the countries with national healthcare model charge non-residents for care.

Why can't we have separate healthcare systems in California, Ohio, New Jersey, Colorado and Alabama? If Colorado wants a healthcare system like Denmark why doesn't it? Why should people in Utah or Vermont or Florida be required to follow the same healthcare model?

FWIW California has a similar population as Spain, Ohio has a similar population as Belgium, New Jersey has a similar population as Austria, Colorado has a similar population as Denmark, and Alabama has a similar population as Ireland....
02-13-2020 11:55 AM
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #52
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-13-2020 10:38 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  Bernie Sanders
@SenSanders

Remember: our "crazy idea" of universal health care is a reality in:

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Canada
Chile
Czech Rep.
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Portugal
S. Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switz.
Turkey
U.K.

You probably should have thought this post through before posting........
02-13-2020 02:01 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #53
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-13-2020 02:01 PM)VA49er Wrote:  
(02-13-2020 10:38 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  Bernie Sanders
@SenSanders

Remember: our "crazy idea" of universal health care is a reality in:

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Canada
Chile
Czech Rep.
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Portugal
S. Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switz.
Turkey
U.K.

You probably should have thought this post through before posting........

Mighty presumptuous of you to ask Poly to do something as foreign to his nature as thinking.
02-13-2020 03:10 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #54
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-13-2020 11:55 AM)YNot Wrote:  I truly don't understand why certain STATES don't implement the type of healthcare system they want.

Four letters. C O S T
02-13-2020 04:32 PM
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ShrackUAB Offline
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Post: #55
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 12:50 PM)Kronke Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 07:48 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 01:29 AM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  ... you realize other countries have Medicare for all systems right?

You realize that they don't, right?

Don't pester him with facts. Once he realized that broad, regurgitated talking points & platitudes wasn't going to win the argument, he was "out".

Nah, it's just pointless to repeatedly argue with someone when neither of us are going to change the other one's mind. I'm sure we both have better things to do with our time.

There are countless examples of various healthcare systems working much more efficiently than ours. It's okay to not want the government running the whole show with healthcare, but at some point we have to realize that we are spending a ton of money on things we don't have to, driving up the cost.

18% of GDP on healthcare (projected to hit 20% by 2027) is absolutely insane, especially when many other countries have everyone insured for less. And again, I'd be glad with the Bismarck model, but no one is running on it afaik.
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2020 05:09 PM by ShrackUAB.)
02-13-2020 05:07 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #56
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-13-2020 05:07 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  18% of GDP on healthcare (projected to hit 20% by 2027) is absolutely insane, especially when many other countries have everyone insured for less. And again, I'd be glad with the Bismarck model, but no one is running on it afaik.

And that pisses the crap out of me.

Right now, I think if Trump could push through Bismarck and a subsistence-level universal basic income (like Milton Friedman's negative income tax or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund), paid for with a consumption tax (which would also generate enough income to balance the budget), and legalizing marijuana and decriminalizing other drugs, he could win in a walk in November. He'd defuse the health care issue that republicans lost big on in 2018, and he'd make inroads with both youth and black voters, particularly if he accompanied it with some sort of amnesty for those imprisoned for minor drug offenses. And that would pretty much stall the march to socialism. I cannot understand for the life of me why he doesn't.

Maybe I'm being too Libertarian here, but that just seems like a wining combination to me.
02-13-2020 05:26 PM
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