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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-10-2020 09:19 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Many of us including Bernie Sanders are calling for us to modal ourselves on healthcare like Israel, Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan, the Nordic countries, and others like that. Most of the countries used the single payer government run health care as an investment to keep people healthy from birth to death. It is an investment for babies to be grown up as healthy to work at jobs which brings in more money as an investment for their kids, and grandkids and great grandkids. I think we need that.

Bernie Sanders voted against bailing out the banks in 2008 and the auto bail outs. He voted against giving free money to oil companies to media companies as he said bailing them out is like giving them money that many paid no to a little taxes as possible. It was giving our money, the little people to the 1%.

So, lets leave aside the fact that none of the countries you've listed have even $200M people and a non-homogeneous population. Never mind the inevitable tax increase on those who make over $60K along with the Nationalization of the Energy sector that Kaplony mentioned as even Bernie know that there isn't enough money to bankroll this dream. We'll not talk about the fact that Sanders has no idea of how to increase the number of medical professionals and simply focus on this; The the US Gov't currently runs at least 4 social medical programs right now.

Medicare/Medicaid
Tricare
VA
ACA

Of the ones listed, which one do you think actually delivers on the medical services? I'll help you out and tell you its Tricare, but just barely. It has the advantage of applying health standards to at least one member of the family and can be withdrawn for noncompliance. As the General Public isn't signing up for that you are now left with three programs that are absolute failures. So why do you think the Federal Government can do better job with more people under its purview when it can't manage the ~100M it is responsible for now?
02-10-2020 10:50 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-10-2020 09:36 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-08-2020 10:53 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  Is anyone on this board actually a socialist though? Maybe one or two people? Is there anyone advocating for us to be the next Cuba?

I don't believe that wanting to implement policies similar to countries such as Japan, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, the United Kingdom, etc makes you a Socialist. It's just Capitalism with extra safety nets for your average citizen. Ensuring the health of all of your citizens is simply a net gain for productivity and morale.

Canada, Germany, the UK, Japan, etc are all CAPITALIST countries with some SOCIAL policies. Sweden, Norway, Denmark etc use the NORDIC MODEL of CAPITALISM.

-The Beveridge model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The Bismarck model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The National Health Insurance model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.

Our current healthcare model is trash. We pay too much money because so many different entities have their hands in the cookie jar... and to top it off we willingly defend overpaying for everything simply because in most people's minds any other model is "socialism". For some really weird reason people just love defending Anthem (BCBS) and Aetna Health insurance companies. They also love that Pharmaceutical companies are charging us 50% more than they did just 10 years ago, well past inflation. To top it off, all of these pharmaceutical companies received subsidies paid for with taxpayer money. Nearly EVERY drug released in the past 10 years received government subsidies to create it.

Here's some real socialism for you:

-Bank bailouts, no prison time for causing the 2008 financial crisis
-Auto bailouts
-ISP companies accepting millions and millions in government subsidies for infrastructure and just pocketing it...then having the audacity to ask for more taxpayer money.
-Equifax boning every taxpaying American in the country and nothing happens, no prison time

If we're supposed to be a capitalistic utopia then why are all of these large companies getting socialism/subsidies??? Why are these companies living off the taxpayer teet if we're supposed to be a purely capitalist society? In a truly capitalist society these entities would have been allowed to fail, and someone else would have risen up over time to take their place.

We don't live in a purely Capitalist society as it is and for good reason. It would be a total winner-takes-all hell, as much as Socialist/Communist states are hellish societies to live in. This whole going to the extreme nonsense any time anyone discusses any new policies is so old and worn out. Social policy that a vast majority of capitalistic countries use for the good of their citizens is not socialism. And I realize this is a video specifically about Cuba, but most of the discourse on this board is about the current Democratic field versus Trump coming up.

If anyone were to go to jail for causing the 2008 financial crisis, it would be every Democratic Senator from 1998 to 2008, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and all but the 15 Republican senators who warned W. a couple of years before it happened. But the Democrats wanted those bad loans made in poor neighborhoods as they forced the banks to do with their Community Reinvestment Act and everybody wanted to keep bubble going. Don't believe the lie that a few corrupt bankers caused it. It was a classic real estate bubble that was caused by DC legislation and then ignored as it got out of control.

I'd pin that on the ability of banks to unload the responsibility of loans off as investments, creating the perverse incentives that drove the real estate bubble.
02-10-2020 10:57 PM
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ShrackUAB Offline
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Post: #23
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-10-2020 10:50 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:19 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Many of us including Bernie Sanders are calling for us to modal ourselves on healthcare like Israel, Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan, the Nordic countries, and others like that. Most of the countries used the single payer government run health care as an investment to keep people healthy from birth to death. It is an investment for babies to be grown up as healthy to work at jobs which brings in more money as an investment for their kids, and grandkids and great grandkids. I think we need that.

Bernie Sanders voted against bailing out the banks in 2008 and the auto bail outs. He voted against giving free money to oil companies to media companies as he said bailing them out is like giving them money that many paid no to a little taxes as possible. It was giving our money, the little people to the 1%.

So, lets leave aside the fact that none of the countries you've listed have even $200M people and a non-homogeneous population. Never mind the inevitable tax increase on those who make over $60K along with the Nationalization of the Energy sector that Kaplony mentioned as even Bernie know that there isn't enough money to bankroll this dream. We'll not talk about the fact that Sanders has no idea of how to increase the number of medical professionals and simply focus on this; The the US Gov't currently runs at least 4 social medical programs right now.

Medicare/Medicaid
Tricare
VA
ACA

Of the ones listed, which one do you think actually delivers on the medical services? I'll help you out and tell you its Tricare, but just barely. It has the advantage of applying health standards to at least one member of the family and can be withdrawn for noncompliance. As the General Public isn't signing up for that you are now left with three programs that are absolute failures. So why do you think the Federal Government can do better job with more people under its purview when it can't manage the ~100M it is responsible for now?

Medicare/Medicaid are generally rated with the highest satisfaction ratings in the country year after year.

People act like their health insurance companies don't constantly try to screw them. I don't understand it.
02-10-2020 11:02 PM
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shere khan Offline
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Post: #24
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-10-2020 11:02 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 10:50 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:19 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Many of us including Bernie Sanders are calling for us to modal ourselves on healthcare like Israel, Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan, the Nordic countries, and others like that. Most of the countries used the single payer government run health care as an investment to keep people healthy from birth to death. It is an investment for babies to be grown up as healthy to work at jobs which brings in more money as an investment for their kids, and grandkids and great grandkids. I think we need that.

Bernie Sanders voted against bailing out the banks in 2008 and the auto bail outs. He voted against giving free money to oil companies to media companies as he said bailing them out is like giving them money that many paid no to a little taxes as possible. It was giving our money, the little people to the 1%.

So, lets leave aside the fact that none of the countries you've listed have even $200M people and a non-homogeneous population. Never mind the inevitable tax increase on those who make over $60K along with the Nationalization of the Energy sector that Kaplony mentioned as even Bernie know that there isn't enough money to bankroll this dream. We'll not talk about the fact that Sanders has no idea of how to increase the number of medical professionals and simply focus on this; The the US Gov't currently runs at least 4 social medical programs right now.

Medicare/Medicaid
Tricare
VA
ACA

Of the ones listed, which one do you think actually delivers on the medical services? I'll help you out and tell you its Tricare, but just barely. It has the advantage of applying health standards to at least one member of the family and can be withdrawn for noncompliance. As the General Public isn't signing up for that you are now left with three programs that are absolute failures. So why do you think the Federal Government can do better job with more people under its purview when it can't manage the ~100M it is responsible for now?

Medicare/Medicaid are generally rated with the highest satisfaction ratings in the country year after year.

People act like their health insurance companies don't constantly try to screw them. I don't understand it.
02-10-2020 11:24 PM
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shere khan Offline
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Post: #25
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-08-2020 10:53 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  Is anyone on this board actually a socialist though? Maybe one or two people? Is there anyone advocating for us to be the next Cuba?

I don't believe that wanting to implement policies similar to countries such as Japan, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, the United Kingdom, etc makes you a Socialist. It's just Capitalism with extra safety nets for your average citizen. Ensuring the health of all of your citizens is simply a net gain for productivity and morale.

Canada, Germany, the UK, Japan, etc are all CAPITALIST countries with some SOCIAL policies. Sweden, Norway, Denmark etc use the NORDIC MODEL of CAPITALISM.

-The Beveridge model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The Bismarck model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The National Health Insurance model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.

Our current healthcare model is trash. We pay too much money because so many different entities have their hands in the cookie jar... and to top it off we willingly defend overpaying for everything simply because in most people's minds any other model is "socialism". For some really weird reason people just love defending Anthem (BCBS) and Aetna Health insurance companies. They also love that Pharmaceutical companies are charging us 50% more than they did just 10 years ago, well past inflation. To top it off, all of these pharmaceutical companies received subsidies paid for with taxpayer money. Nearly EVERY drug released in the past 10 years received government subsidies to create it.

Here's some real socialism for you:

-Bank bailouts, no prison time for causing the 2008 financial crisis
-Auto bailouts
-ISP companies accepting millions and millions in government subsidies for infrastructure and just pocketing it...then having the audacity to ask for more taxpayer money.
-Equifax boning every taxpaying American in the country and nothing happens, no prison time

If we're supposed to be a capitalistic utopia then why are all of these large companies getting socialism/subsidies??? Why are these companies living off the taxpayer teet if we're supposed to be a purely capitalist society? In a truly capitalist society these entities would have been allowed to fail, and someone else would have risen up over time to take their place.

We don't live in a purely Capitalist society as it is and for good reason. It would be a total winner-takes-all hell, as much as Socialist/Communist states are hellish societies to live in. This whole going to the extreme nonsense any time anyone discusses any new policies is so old and worn out. Social policy that a vast majority of capitalistic countries use for the good of their citizens is not socialism. And I realize this is a video specifically about Cuba, but most of the discourse on this board is about the current Democratic field versus Trump coming up.

Quit giving taxpayer money to stupid companies is the solution. Not "the companies get free shite , we want more free shite"

Good grief man, dont regular people who work support enough people who dont in this country.

Democrat solution is to let the government take more and redistribute it. Frick that. Those bureaucratic idiots.

Nordic model. 03-lmfao
02-10-2020 11:39 PM
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Kronke Offline
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Post: #26
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-10-2020 11:02 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 10:50 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:19 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Many of us including Bernie Sanders are calling for us to modal ourselves on healthcare like Israel, Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan, the Nordic countries, and others like that. Most of the countries used the single payer government run health care as an investment to keep people healthy from birth to death. It is an investment for babies to be grown up as healthy to work at jobs which brings in more money as an investment for their kids, and grandkids and great grandkids. I think we need that.

Bernie Sanders voted against bailing out the banks in 2008 and the auto bail outs. He voted against giving free money to oil companies to media companies as he said bailing them out is like giving them money that many paid no to a little taxes as possible. It was giving our money, the little people to the 1%.

So, lets leave aside the fact that none of the countries you've listed have even $200M people and a non-homogeneous population. Never mind the inevitable tax increase on those who make over $60K along with the Nationalization of the Energy sector that Kaplony mentioned as even Bernie know that there isn't enough money to bankroll this dream. We'll not talk about the fact that Sanders has no idea of how to increase the number of medical professionals and simply focus on this; The the US Gov't currently runs at least 4 social medical programs right now.

Medicare/Medicaid
Tricare
VA
ACA

Of the ones listed, which one do you think actually delivers on the medical services? I'll help you out and tell you its Tricare, but just barely. It has the advantage of applying health standards to at least one member of the family and can be withdrawn for noncompliance. As the General Public isn't signing up for that you are now left with three programs that are absolute failures. So why do you think the Federal Government can do better job with more people under its purview when it can't manage the ~100M it is responsible for now?

Medicare/Medicaid are generally rated with the highest satisfaction ratings in the country year after year.

People act like their health insurance companies don't constantly try to screw them. I don't understand it.

Medicaid is trash and the people that have it and like it, likely don't know any better. Most good doctors won't accept it. If you robbed people of their private insurance to force them onto such a program, it would likely incite a civil war, and that's not hyperbole.

People like Medicare because they take out WAY more in benefits on average than they ever paid in taxes. It's a very generous program that (shocker) is going bankrupt, and you would only exacerbate the problem if you attempted to put the entire country + any illegal in the world that can manage to get here, all on the same system.

There will need to be reforms to Medicare in the near future in order for it to become solvent. I'm personally for raising the eligibility age, since we are now living so much longer than when it was created, but it's political suicide for either side to take on that problem. People like bernie "win" on the issue by going the other way, promising shite that he knows he can never deliver -- even MORE generous benefits, dental, vision, long-term care, etc. He's so "honest".

Not to mention the drastic cut to reimbursement rates that doctors would be forced to accept. Talk about brain drain. Why invest 8 years in school to become a doctor to make a lower-middle class income, when you can go work in law, finance or tech. On top of all the other problems (bankrupting the country, costing millions of jobs, crashing the stock market), you would also create a "good doctor" shortage overnight.

Are you a college student by any chance? I ask because they are the only people naive enough to believe M4A is a good idea or would ever happen.

Health insurance companies don't "screw" anyone. They are legally bound by the contents of the policy. Some people don't take the time to understand their policies, and chalk up their ignorance as "getting screwed". Health insurance companies will deny claims for non-covered services, just like Medicare & Medicaid will.

I'll also counter that anecdote with actual polling -- M4A that bans private insurance polls at 13% approval.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2020 01:07 AM by Kronke.)
02-11-2020 12:05 AM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-10-2020 11:02 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 10:50 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:19 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Many of us including Bernie Sanders are calling for us to modal ourselves on healthcare like Israel, Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan, the Nordic countries, and others like that. Most of the countries used the single payer government run health care as an investment to keep people healthy from birth to death. It is an investment for babies to be grown up as healthy to work at jobs which brings in more money as an investment for their kids, and grandkids and great grandkids. I think we need that.

Bernie Sanders voted against bailing out the banks in 2008 and the auto bail outs. He voted against giving free money to oil companies to media companies as he said bailing them out is like giving them money that many paid no to a little taxes as possible. It was giving our money, the little people to the 1%.

So, lets leave aside the fact that none of the countries you've listed have even $200M people and a non-homogeneous population. Never mind the inevitable tax increase on those who make over $60K along with the Nationalization of the Energy sector that Kaplony mentioned as even Bernie know that there isn't enough money to bankroll this dream. We'll not talk about the fact that Sanders has no idea of how to increase the number of medical professionals and simply focus on this; The the US Gov't currently runs at least 4 social medical programs right now.

Medicare/Medicaid
Tricare
VA
ACA

Of the ones listed, which one do you think actually delivers on the medical services? I'll help you out and tell you its Tricare, but just barely. It has the advantage of applying health standards to at least one member of the family and can be withdrawn for noncompliance. As the General Public isn't signing up for that you are now left with three programs that are absolute failures. So why do you think the Federal Government can do better job with more people under its purview when it can't manage the ~100M it is responsible for now?

Medicare/Medicaid are generally rated with the highest satisfaction ratings in the country year after year.

People act like their health insurance companies don't constantly try to screw them. I don't understand it.

I suppose that means you are on Medicaid? Regardless my metric wasn't on customer satisfaction, but delivery of service. Lots of physicans are opting out due to the onerous paperwork associated with Medicare/Medicaid. Those that don't need to see a lot of patients to make up for the below average reimbursements.

And if you think insurance screws you over, I'd suggest you take Kaplony's recommendation and examine how the VA does the same thing.
02-11-2020 12:28 AM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #28
For our socialist friends
(02-08-2020 08:30 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  Here's a sampling of how wonderful socialism is. If that's what YOU want then go enjoy that great experiment somewhere that they have it but please don't try to hoodwink us who have seen many other examples of socialism/communism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz6VJK3mS08


Is that the beautiful city of El Pa So yet? I hope not.

Long been time we and they with our help, clean this schit up.

Good grief there’s so much potential out there for picking up all these places, and hence all these people.
But no, the socialist leftists STILL won’t just let it happen organically.

You don’t think NoKo could be a bitchin, Disney world, pacific beachfront country full of tourists, bars, and cruise ships?

Yet, we wanna turn L.A., Fransicko, NYC and others into that terror.

Sad. Disgusting. Unbelievable.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2020 12:27 PM by JMUDunk.)
02-11-2020 12:36 AM
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ShrackUAB Offline
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Post: #29
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 12:28 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 11:02 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 10:50 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:19 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Many of us including Bernie Sanders are calling for us to modal ourselves on healthcare like Israel, Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan, the Nordic countries, and others like that. Most of the countries used the single payer government run health care as an investment to keep people healthy from birth to death. It is an investment for babies to be grown up as healthy to work at jobs which brings in more money as an investment for their kids, and grandkids and great grandkids. I think we need that.

Bernie Sanders voted against bailing out the banks in 2008 and the auto bail outs. He voted against giving free money to oil companies to media companies as he said bailing them out is like giving them money that many paid no to a little taxes as possible. It was giving our money, the little people to the 1%.

So, lets leave aside the fact that none of the countries you've listed have even $200M people and a non-homogeneous population. Never mind the inevitable tax increase on those who make over $60K along with the Nationalization of the Energy sector that Kaplony mentioned as even Bernie know that there isn't enough money to bankroll this dream. We'll not talk about the fact that Sanders has no idea of how to increase the number of medical professionals and simply focus on this; The the US Gov't currently runs at least 4 social medical programs right now.

Medicare/Medicaid
Tricare
VA
ACA

Of the ones listed, which one do you think actually delivers on the medical services? I'll help you out and tell you its Tricare, but just barely. It has the advantage of applying health standards to at least one member of the family and can be withdrawn for noncompliance. As the General Public isn't signing up for that you are now left with three programs that are absolute failures. So why do you think the Federal Government can do better job with more people under its purview when it can't manage the ~100M it is responsible for now?

Medicare/Medicaid are generally rated with the highest satisfaction ratings in the country year after year.

People act like their health insurance companies don't constantly try to screw them. I don't understand it.

I suppose that means you are on Medicaid? Regardless my metric wasn't on customer satisfaction, but delivery of service. Lots of physicans are opting out due to the onerous paperwork associated with Medicare/Medicaid. Those that don't need to see a lot of patients to make up for the below average reimbursements.

And if you think insurance screws you over, I'd suggest you take Kaplony's recommendation and examine how the VA does the same thing.

I'm on private insurance as a business owner, and I make too much money for a subsidy from the ACA.

I'll wait to hear everyone else's plans to fix our incredibly bloated and inefficient healthcare system 03-lmfao

"The government cant run nuttin'!" and "We don't have a homogeneous population!" so far aren't really plans for fixing the fact that we are getting close to spending 20% of our GDP on healthcare each year while every other country spends 13% or less and most spend under 10%.
02-11-2020 12:59 AM
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ShrackUAB Offline
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Post: #30
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-10-2020 11:39 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(02-08-2020 10:53 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  Is anyone on this board actually a socialist though? Maybe one or two people? Is there anyone advocating for us to be the next Cuba?

I don't believe that wanting to implement policies similar to countries such as Japan, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, the United Kingdom, etc makes you a Socialist. It's just Capitalism with extra safety nets for your average citizen. Ensuring the health of all of your citizens is simply a net gain for productivity and morale.

Canada, Germany, the UK, Japan, etc are all CAPITALIST countries with some SOCIAL policies. Sweden, Norway, Denmark etc use the NORDIC MODEL of CAPITALISM.

-The Beveridge model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The Bismarck model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The National Health Insurance model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.

Our current healthcare model is trash. We pay too much money because so many different entities have their hands in the cookie jar... and to top it off we willingly defend overpaying for everything simply because in most people's minds any other model is "socialism". For some really weird reason people just love defending Anthem (BCBS) and Aetna Health insurance companies. They also love that Pharmaceutical companies are charging us 50% more than they did just 10 years ago, well past inflation. To top it off, all of these pharmaceutical companies received subsidies paid for with taxpayer money. Nearly EVERY drug released in the past 10 years received government subsidies to create it.

Here's some real socialism for you:

-Bank bailouts, no prison time for causing the 2008 financial crisis
-Auto bailouts
-ISP companies accepting millions and millions in government subsidies for infrastructure and just pocketing it...then having the audacity to ask for more taxpayer money.
-Equifax boning every taxpaying American in the country and nothing happens, no prison time

If we're supposed to be a capitalistic utopia then why are all of these large companies getting socialism/subsidies??? Why are these companies living off the taxpayer teet if we're supposed to be a purely capitalist society? In a truly capitalist society these entities would have been allowed to fail, and someone else would have risen up over time to take their place.

We don't live in a purely Capitalist society as it is and for good reason. It would be a total winner-takes-all hell, as much as Socialist/Communist states are hellish societies to live in. This whole going to the extreme nonsense any time anyone discusses any new policies is so old and worn out. Social policy that a vast majority of capitalistic countries use for the good of their citizens is not socialism. And I realize this is a video specifically about Cuba, but most of the discourse on this board is about the current Democratic field versus Trump coming up.

Quit giving taxpayer money to stupid companies is the solution. Not "the companies get free shite , we want more free shite"

Good grief man, dont regular people who work support enough people who dont in this country.

Democrat solution is to let the government take more and redistribute it. Frick that. Those bureaucratic idiots.

Nordic model. 03-lmfao

What's your plan to fix our healthcare system? What's the Republicans plan right now to fix healthcare? (Hint: they don't really have one)

Edit: And with us at such a low unemployment rate you would expect entitlements should go down right? Or perhaps too many jobs are garbage paying $10 and less an hour so these people need help just to live, as it has been for a long time?
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2020 01:12 AM by ShrackUAB.)
02-11-2020 01:04 AM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 12:59 AM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  I'm on private insurance as a business owner, and I make too much money for a subsidy from the ACA.

I'll wait to hear everyone else's plans to fix our incredibly bloated and inefficient healthcare system 03-lmfao

"The government cant run nuttin'!" and "We don't have a homogeneous population!" so far aren't really plans for fixing the fact that we are getting close to spending 20% of our GDP on healthcare each year while every other country spends 13% or less and most spend under 10%.

If it were easy then California would have shown us the way with their representative population size of the countries everyone wants the U.S. to emulate. As for a plan, I would first thing is to increase the number of providers. Next is to re-examine what falls into the realm of physicians and that of nurses. Many of the things that are handled by docs are done by corpsmen in the military. After that I would determine what are the critical drugs in need of subsidizing and do so. This would only be temporary because I would eliminate the remittance ban on OUTCONUS drugs and allow their sell in the US. Finally, I'd convert ACA into a catastrophic insurance program.

You are correct in the no one has really great plans, but I don't think doing something and then failing is a solution either.
02-11-2020 01:09 AM
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Kronke Offline
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Post: #32
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 01:04 AM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 11:39 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(02-08-2020 10:53 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  Is anyone on this board actually a socialist though? Maybe one or two people? Is there anyone advocating for us to be the next Cuba?

I don't believe that wanting to implement policies similar to countries such as Japan, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, the United Kingdom, etc makes you a Socialist. It's just Capitalism with extra safety nets for your average citizen. Ensuring the health of all of your citizens is simply a net gain for productivity and morale.

Canada, Germany, the UK, Japan, etc are all CAPITALIST countries with some SOCIAL policies. Sweden, Norway, Denmark etc use the NORDIC MODEL of CAPITALISM.

-The Beveridge model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The Bismarck model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The National Health Insurance model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.

Our current healthcare model is trash. We pay too much money because so many different entities have their hands in the cookie jar... and to top it off we willingly defend overpaying for everything simply because in most people's minds any other model is "socialism". For some really weird reason people just love defending Anthem (BCBS) and Aetna Health insurance companies. They also love that Pharmaceutical companies are charging us 50% more than they did just 10 years ago, well past inflation. To top it off, all of these pharmaceutical companies received subsidies paid for with taxpayer money. Nearly EVERY drug released in the past 10 years received government subsidies to create it.

Here's some real socialism for you:

-Bank bailouts, no prison time for causing the 2008 financial crisis
-Auto bailouts
-ISP companies accepting millions and millions in government subsidies for infrastructure and just pocketing it...then having the audacity to ask for more taxpayer money.
-Equifax boning every taxpaying American in the country and nothing happens, no prison time

If we're supposed to be a capitalistic utopia then why are all of these large companies getting socialism/subsidies??? Why are these companies living off the taxpayer teet if we're supposed to be a purely capitalist society? In a truly capitalist society these entities would have been allowed to fail, and someone else would have risen up over time to take their place.

We don't live in a purely Capitalist society as it is and for good reason. It would be a total winner-takes-all hell, as much as Socialist/Communist states are hellish societies to live in. This whole going to the extreme nonsense any time anyone discusses any new policies is so old and worn out. Social policy that a vast majority of capitalistic countries use for the good of their citizens is not socialism. And I realize this is a video specifically about Cuba, but most of the discourse on this board is about the current Democratic field versus Trump coming up.

Quit giving taxpayer money to stupid companies is the solution. Not "the companies get free shite , we want more free shite"

Good grief man, dont regular people who work support enough people who dont in this country.

Democrat solution is to let the government take more and redistribute it. Frick that. Those bureaucratic idiots.

Nordic model. 03-lmfao

What's your plan to fix our healthcare system? What's the Republicans plan right now to fix healthcare? (Hint: they don't really have one)

When if we called your bluff and put your "plan" to a vote in the senate, and it would get ~15 votes, you don't really have a plan either.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2020 01:24 AM by Kronke.)
02-11-2020 01:09 AM
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Kronke Offline
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Post: #33
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 01:09 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  If it were easy then California would have shown us the way with their representative population size of the countries everyone wants the U.S. to emulate.

Exactly. Gillum in Florida was proposing a "confederation of states" to come together to enact a M4A-type scheme. If M4A is actually feasible, Florida or Vermont or California could have proved us all wrong and enacted it on their own, and wouldn't need other states' money.

He basically admitted that it is a pyramid scheme.

(This post was last modified: 02-11-2020 01:23 AM by Kronke.)
02-11-2020 01:17 AM
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shere khan Offline
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Post: #34
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 01:04 AM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 11:39 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(02-08-2020 10:53 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  Is anyone on this board actually a socialist though? Maybe one or two people? Is there anyone advocating for us to be the next Cuba?

I don't believe that wanting to implement policies similar to countries such as Japan, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, the United Kingdom, etc makes you a Socialist. It's just Capitalism with extra safety nets for your average citizen. Ensuring the health of all of your citizens is simply a net gain for productivity and morale.

Canada, Germany, the UK, Japan, etc are all CAPITALIST countries with some SOCIAL policies. Sweden, Norway, Denmark etc use the NORDIC MODEL of CAPITALISM.

-The Beveridge model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The Bismarck model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The National Health Insurance model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.

Our current healthcare model is trash. We pay too much money because so many different entities have their hands in the cookie jar... and to top it off we willingly defend overpaying for everything simply because in most people's minds any other model is "socialism". For some really weird reason people just love defending Anthem (BCBS) and Aetna Health insurance companies. They also love that Pharmaceutical companies are charging us 50% more than they did just 10 years ago, well past inflation. To top it off, all of these pharmaceutical companies received subsidies paid for with taxpayer money. Nearly EVERY drug released in the past 10 years received government subsidies to create it.

Here's some real socialism for you:

-Bank bailouts, no prison time for causing the 2008 financial crisis
-Auto bailouts
-ISP companies accepting millions and millions in government subsidies for infrastructure and just pocketing it...then having the audacity to ask for more taxpayer money.
-Equifax boning every taxpaying American in the country and nothing happens, no prison time

If we're supposed to be a capitalistic utopia then why are all of these large companies getting socialism/subsidies??? Why are these companies living off the taxpayer teet if we're supposed to be a purely capitalist society? In a truly capitalist society these entities would have been allowed to fail, and someone else would have risen up over time to take their place.

We don't live in a purely Capitalist society as it is and for good reason. It would be a total winner-takes-all hell, as much as Socialist/Communist states are hellish societies to live in. This whole going to the extreme nonsense any time anyone discusses any new policies is so old and worn out. Social policy that a vast majority of capitalistic countries use for the good of their citizens is not socialism. And I realize this is a video specifically about Cuba, but most of the discourse on this board is about the current Democratic field versus Trump coming up.

Quit giving taxpayer money to stupid companies is the solution. Not "the companies get free shite , we want more free shite"

Good grief man, dont regular people who work support enough people who dont in this country.

Democrat solution is to let the government take more and redistribute it. Frick that. Those bureaucratic idiots.

Nordic model. 03-lmfao

What's your plan to fix our healthcare system? What's the Republicans plan right now to fix healthcare? (Hint: they don't really have one)

Edit: And with us at such a low unemployment rate you would expect entitlements should go down right? Or perhaps too many jobs are garbage paying $10 and less an hour so these people need help just to live, as it has been for a long time?

I've worked my whole life and paid for my healthcare in addition to paying for people that were genuinely indigent and many that are just freaking lazy entitled aholes.

Never had a problem before the jug eared community organizer tried to get the government to fix it.

My plan is to vote for whoever is against taking more of my money or putting more government in my life.

I dont want the feds in my life. My plan is to vote against globalist wealth redistribution idiots.
02-11-2020 01:23 AM
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ShrackUAB Offline
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Post: #35
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 01:17 AM)Kronke Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 01:09 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  If it were easy then California would have shown us the way with their representative population size of the countries everyone wants the U.S. to emulate.

Exactly. Gillum in Florida was proposing a "confederation of states" to come together to enact a M4A-type scheme. If M4A would work on it's own, Florida or Vermont or California could have enacted it themselves, and wouldn't need other states' money.

He basically admitted that it is a pyramid scheme.


... you realize other countries have Medicare for all systems right?

You realize no one wants our healthcare system right? Sure, rich people travel here for care sometimes because we do have some of the greatest doctors and facilities on the planet, but your average joe wouldn't take our system.

No one is looking at the USA and going "Hell yeah, let's pay 18% of our GDP for healthcare every year. Cant wait to have 500,000 medical bankruptcies per year. Sounds great" 03-lmfao

Regardless, this is a pointless argument. I said my piece
02-11-2020 01:29 AM
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ShrackUAB Offline
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Post: #36
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 01:23 AM)shere khan Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 01:04 AM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 11:39 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(02-08-2020 10:53 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  Is anyone on this board actually a socialist though? Maybe one or two people? Is there anyone advocating for us to be the next Cuba?

I don't believe that wanting to implement policies similar to countries such as Japan, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, the United Kingdom, etc makes you a Socialist. It's just Capitalism with extra safety nets for your average citizen. Ensuring the health of all of your citizens is simply a net gain for productivity and morale.

Canada, Germany, the UK, Japan, etc are all CAPITALIST countries with some SOCIAL policies. Sweden, Norway, Denmark etc use the NORDIC MODEL of CAPITALISM.

-The Beveridge model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The Bismarck model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The National Health Insurance model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.

Our current healthcare model is trash. We pay too much money because so many different entities have their hands in the cookie jar... and to top it off we willingly defend overpaying for everything simply because in most people's minds any other model is "socialism". For some really weird reason people just love defending Anthem (BCBS) and Aetna Health insurance companies. They also love that Pharmaceutical companies are charging us 50% more than they did just 10 years ago, well past inflation. To top it off, all of these pharmaceutical companies received subsidies paid for with taxpayer money. Nearly EVERY drug released in the past 10 years received government subsidies to create it.

Here's some real socialism for you:

-Bank bailouts, no prison time for causing the 2008 financial crisis
-Auto bailouts
-ISP companies accepting millions and millions in government subsidies for infrastructure and just pocketing it...then having the audacity to ask for more taxpayer money.
-Equifax boning every taxpaying American in the country and nothing happens, no prison time

If we're supposed to be a capitalistic utopia then why are all of these large companies getting socialism/subsidies??? Why are these companies living off the taxpayer teet if we're supposed to be a purely capitalist society? In a truly capitalist society these entities would have been allowed to fail, and someone else would have risen up over time to take their place.

We don't live in a purely Capitalist society as it is and for good reason. It would be a total winner-takes-all hell, as much as Socialist/Communist states are hellish societies to live in. This whole going to the extreme nonsense any time anyone discusses any new policies is so old and worn out. Social policy that a vast majority of capitalistic countries use for the good of their citizens is not socialism. And I realize this is a video specifically about Cuba, but most of the discourse on this board is about the current Democratic field versus Trump coming up.

Quit giving taxpayer money to stupid companies is the solution. Not "the companies get free shite , we want more free shite"

Good grief man, dont regular people who work support enough people who dont in this country.

Democrat solution is to let the government take more and redistribute it. Frick that. Those bureaucratic idiots.

Nordic model. 03-lmfao

What's your plan to fix our healthcare system? What's the Republicans plan right now to fix healthcare? (Hint: they don't really have one)

Edit: And with us at such a low unemployment rate you would expect entitlements should go down right? Or perhaps too many jobs are garbage paying $10 and less an hour so these people need help just to live, as it has been for a long time?

I've worked my whole life and paid for my healthcare in addition to paying for people that were genuinely indigent and many that are just freaking lazy entitled aholes.

Never had a problem before the jug eared community organizer tried to get the government to fix it.

My plan is to vote for whoever is against taking more of my money or putting more government in my life.

I dont want the feds in my life. My plan is to vote against globalist wealth redistribution idiots.

Im all for keeping it private....if someone comes up with a valid plan to do so. The issue is theres a lot of private hands in the system as is causing most of the bloated costs... and a lot of lobbying against change within the current system.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2020 02:06 AM by ShrackUAB.)
02-11-2020 01:32 AM
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Kronke Offline
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Post: #37
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 01:29 AM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  ... you realize other countries have Medicare for all systems right?

You realize no one wants our healthcare system right? Sure, rich people travel here for care sometimes because we do have some of the greatest doctors and facilities on the planet, but your average joe wouldn't take our system.

No one is looking at the USA and going "Hell yeah, let's pay 18% of our GDP for healthcare every year. Cant wait to have 500,000 medical bankruptcies per year. Sounds great" 03-lmfao

Regardless, this is a pointless argument. I said my piece

Yes, tiny countries with vast oil reserves/sovereign wealth funds and a couple million people packed into a handful of major cities on 15,000 square miles make it work. We also pay for their defense.

We have 330 million people projected to hit 570 million by 2100 on 4 million square miles, without even a secure border and politicians promising to cover anyone in the world that can manage to get here. The price tag on that is effectively infinity.

Our system works just fine for a lot of people. 92% have coverage. You need to figure out how to make it work for the other 8% instead of this "revolution" garbage.

How did you come to that number on medical bankruptcies? Was it the medical bill or the falling out of the work force? I've also heard stories where they poll who among those that declared bankruptcy had an outstanding medical bill, and then labeled them all "medical bankruptcies". So, I'm not sure I buy that.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2020 01:55 AM by Kronke.)
02-11-2020 01:52 AM
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ShrackUAB Offline
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Post: #38
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 01:52 AM)Kronke Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 01:29 AM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  ... you realize other countries have Medicare for all systems right?

You realize no one wants our healthcare system right? Sure, rich people travel here for care sometimes because we do have some of the greatest doctors and facilities on the planet, but your average joe wouldn't take our system.

No one is looking at the USA and going "Hell yeah, let's pay 18% of our GDP for healthcare every year. Cant wait to have 500,000 medical bankruptcies per year. Sounds great" 03-lmfao

Regardless, this is a pointless argument. I said my piece

Yes, tiny countries with vast oil reserves/sovereign wealth funds and a couple million people packed into a handful of major cities on 15,000 square miles make it work. We also pay for their defense.

We have 330 million people projected to hit 570 million by 2100 on 4 million square miles, without even a secure border and politicians promising to cover anyone in the world that can manage to get here. The price tag on that is effectively infinity.

Our system works just fine for a lot of people. 92% have coverage. You need to figure out how to make it work for the other 8% instead of this "revolution" garbage.

How did you come to that number on medical bankruptcies? Was it the medical bill or the falling out of the work force? I've also heard stories where they poll who among those that declared bankruptcy had an outstanding medical bill, and then labeled them all "medical bankruptcies". So, I'm not sure I buy that.

There are plenty of large countries pop wise that have good healthcare systems (not necessarily M4A) such as Japan, Germany, and the UK. And as far as our population goes, that can be an advantage. Economies of scale is a thing, even in the healthcare industry.

But really we just aren't going to agree with each other over this issue, so I'm out
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2020 02:25 AM by ShrackUAB.)
02-11-2020 02:19 AM
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Post: #39
RE: For our socialist friends
(02-11-2020 01:29 AM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  ... you realize other countries have Medicare for all systems right?

You realize that they don't, right?
02-11-2020 07:48 AM
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #40
RE: For our socialist friends
What are all the Bernie supporters going to do when Bernie comes to them to pay for everything? Remember, there is no way in hades that the taxing the "rich" more will pay for everything Bernie wants to give away for free.
02-11-2020 08:38 AM
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