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Post: #41
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-10-2020 02:20 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 02:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's something I don't understand. The democrats have taken to this idea that cabinet members and other executive branch personnel somehow have to be independent (and in their minds, independent seems to mean adverse to the President) rather than supportive of the President. It was considered outrageous that Trump asked about loyalty. Barr has been criticized for not being adverse to Trump. It was considered terrible that Ambassador Yovanovitch was fired when it appears that she made no secret of her anti-Trump views.

These people serve at the pleasure of the President. Their job is to conduct the business of the nation, not to spy on the President and stab him in the back.

What's particularly weird about this expectation is that it's pretty clear that the same expectations did not apply to Eric Holder or Loretta Lynch.

The big political take away for any future president to derive from Trumps first 3 years is to completely sweep the deck clean when you come into power. Maybe everyone already knew that and if was just a rookie political mistake by Trump---but these last 3 years has made the need to do a complete system reset when a new administration comes into the White House absolutely crystal clear. Dont trust anyone left behind. Given that conservatives will likely look to use the same insurgent tactics next time a Democrat is in the White House---dont expect the Democrat president to make the same error Trump did.

Well they were stalling all appointments with the filibuster. That slowed down the change til McConnell did away with it. And when you wipe away the first level, you've still got the Sally Yates types embedded.

I think there was some assumption of professionalism. It seems clear that Obama destroyed the professionalism civil service with his appointments. Every day, Obama looks worse and worse as a president.
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2020 04:19 PM by bullet.)
02-10-2020 04:18 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-10-2020 03:07 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 02:09 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 01:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:39 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's something I find interesting about Vindman. The left keeps propping him up as a war hero because he got a Purple Heart. He was commissioned in 1999, so he has 21 years of service time. In that time, we've been at war for 18 of them. He deployed to South Korea and Germany and has one year of combat service, Sept 2004 to Sept 2005. When other soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen were doing three or four combat deployments, he was one and done. And he was injured by an IED, his Purple Heart, in October 2004, so we don't know exactly how much of that one year was actually combat time. He spent the rest of the time going to grad school and serving in various embassy and staff billets. That is not the resume of a war hero.
I've know officers like him, who padded their career with staff and diplomatic positions. They are competent paper shufflers, but hardly war heroes. They get by by kissing butts, not by doing things.
You're despicable dude.
Wow. You realize that is a veteran your talking to right?
Right, and he's calling an active duty service member with a purple heart a traitor, among other things.

If that’s your takeaway, then you know something I don’t and are conflating it. My only point is that I’ve known officers like him and I generally have little respect for them. You read that as traitor. Not much I can do about that.
02-10-2020 04:44 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-10-2020 04:44 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 03:07 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 02:09 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 01:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:39 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's something I find interesting about Vindman. The left keeps propping him up as a war hero because he got a Purple Heart. He was commissioned in 1999, so he has 21 years of service time. In that time, we've been at war for 18 of them. He deployed to South Korea and Germany and has one year of combat service, Sept 2004 to Sept 2005. When other soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen were doing three or four combat deployments, he was one and done. And he was injured by an IED, his Purple Heart, in October 2004, so we don't know exactly how much of that one year was actually combat time. He spent the rest of the time going to grad school and serving in various embassy and staff billets. That is not the resume of a war hero.
I've know officers like him, who padded their career with staff and diplomatic positions. They are competent paper shufflers, but hardly war heroes. They get by by kissing butts, not by doing things.
You're despicable dude.
Wow. You realize that is a veteran your talking to right?
Right, and he's calling an active duty service member with a purple heart a traitor, among other things.

If that’s your takeaway, then you know something I don’t and are conflating it. My only point is that I’ve known officers like him and I generally have little respect for them. You read that as traitor. Not much I can do about that.

Dude, YOU brought up Benedict Arnold at least 2 times in posts about him.

Benedict Arnold has become synonymous with the word traitor.

01-wingedeagle
02-11-2020 09:05 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-11-2020 09:05 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Dude, YOU brought up Benedict Arnold at least 2 times in posts about him.
Benedict Arnold has become synonymous with the word traitor.
01-wingedeagle

But you missed my point. Any criticism of Vindman has been met with, "How dare you criticize a Purple Heart winner." My point in bringing up Benedict Arnold is that prior valor doesn't inoculate against future treachery.

My comments about his past go to the point that the dude is not the kind of war hero that the left is making him out to be. He basically used the military to land a bunch of cushy assignments while we have people sacrificing lives and limbs in the Middle East. Those are the heroes, and quite frankly we owe it to them to bring them home and quit fighting a no-win war or two--or three. He spend one year out of 21 in combat, when others were doing 3 and 4 tours over there. George Patton--or even Norman Schwartzkopf--he is not.

I can't accuse Vindman of being a traitor because I don't have the facts at hand to prove that. But I believe even his testimony suggests very strongly that he put what he believed to be the interests of Ukraine ahead of those of the USA. He speaks of Ukraine as being critical to US security. How and why? If Putin took over Ukraine tomorrow, how would that impact US national security. And if Putin tried to take it over, exactly what would we be able to do to stop him. We probably need to try to negotiate something with Putin over Ukraine. Not because we trust him--at least, I don't--but because we really don't have any options. Could we trade Donbas for letting the rest of Ukraine join the EU and/or NATO? From what I understand about Putin's concerns, he couldn't do that. But I'd be interested to know just what he could stomach, and whether that would work for Ukraine and us.

And off the facts I do have, it strikes me that the most obvious explanation for his even being at NSC in the first place is that he was placed there as a deep state mole. I knew a guy who was kicked out of NROTC because he had distant relatives in East Germany before the unification. If that was too great a security risk to let him drive a ship, then it strikes me that Vindman's close relatives in Ukraine and his outspoken political beliefs would disqualify him from serving on NSC staff in a Trump administration. And the Trump administration was too dumb--or trusting, or something--to realize that. I can't prove that, so I can't assert that as fact. But at this point, that makes more sense to me than any other explanation. And consistent with that, do I think he is a traitor? Yes, probably, but again I can't prove it, so I will only offer it as opinion. All of us on here would appreciate it if, in the future, you would similarly differentiate between fact and opinion.

One other thing that I don't understand. There seems to be this new-found opinion on the left that Cabinet members and White House staff cannot be loyal to the president, but must be totally non-partisan (which seems to be interpreted as meaning opposing him). I say new-found because that sure as heck didn't apply to the likes of Eric Holder or Loretta Lynch. They are his staff, he gets to pick whom he wants, and I see no problem with loyalty as a criterion. It's almost as if they aren't moles spying on him, they are acting inappropriately. Where did that come from, anyway?
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2020 01:08 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
02-11-2020 12:46 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-11-2020 12:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other thing that I don't understand. There seems to be this new-found opinion on the left that Cabinet members and White House staff cannot be loyal to the president, but must be totally non-partisan (which seems to be interpreted as meaning opposing him). I say new-found because that sure as heck didn't apply to the likes of Eric Holder or Loretta Lynch. They are his staff, he gets to pick whom he wants, and I see no problem with loyalty as a criterion. It's almost as if they aren't moles spying on him, they are acting inappropriately. Where did that come from, anyway?


I never thought about this in the way you described it, but something never sat well with me along those lines. It seemed as if his cabinet members were being bullied or chastised for being "uncooperative" for not talking.
02-11-2020 01:48 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-11-2020 12:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other thing that I don't understand. There seems to be this new-found opinion on the left that Cabinet members and White House staff cannot be loyal to the president, but must be totally non-partisan (which seems to be interpreted as meaning opposing him).

Opinion of whom? I've heard no such thing anywhere.
02-11-2020 01:51 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-10-2020 01:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:39 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's something I find interesting about Vindman. The left keeps propping him up as a war hero because he got a Purple Heart. He was commissioned in 1999, so he has 21 years of service time. In that time, we've been at war for 18 of them. He deployed to South Korea and Germany and has one year of combat service, Sept 2004 to Sept 2005. When other soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen were doing three or four combat deployments, he was one and done. And he was injured by an IED, his Purple Heart, in October 2004, so we don't know exactly how much of that one year was actually combat time. He spent the rest of the time going to grad school and serving in various embassy and staff billets. That is not the resume of a war hero.

I've know officers like him, who padded their career with staff and diplomatic positions. They are competent paper shufflers, but hardly war heroes. They get by by kissing butts, not by doing things.

You're despicable dude.

Lol, projection, how cute.
02-11-2020 02:01 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-10-2020 01:25 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 01:23 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 10:18 AM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:09 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-07-2020 05:30 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  The truth is he leaked classified information.

Source?

Once the lawyer moved information to a classified server, it can't be released. Lt. Col Vindman continued to discuss it with persons without a need to know, and that is what we call leaking classified information.

What "classified" information did he release and where is your proof?

Get your head out of Vox'es anal canal. This has been covered ad nauseum.

He couldn't find his own ass with both hands but he can sure insert his head it up with no difficulty. He literally just called owl, a verified service member with a distinguished career despicable while attempting to cover for a treasonous coward.
02-11-2020 02:04 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-10-2020 02:09 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 01:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:39 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's something I find interesting about Vindman. The left keeps propping him up as a war hero because he got a Purple Heart. He was commissioned in 1999, so he has 21 years of service time. In that time, we've been at war for 18 of them. He deployed to South Korea and Germany and has one year of combat service, Sept 2004 to Sept 2005. When other soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen were doing three or four combat deployments, he was one and done. And he was injured by an IED, his Purple Heart, in October 2004, so we don't know exactly how much of that one year was actually combat time. He spent the rest of the time going to grad school and serving in various embassy and staff billets. That is not the resume of a war hero.

I've know officers like him, who padded their career with staff and diplomatic positions. They are competent paper shufflers, but hardly war heroes. They get by by kissing butts, not by doing things.

You're despicable dude.

Wow. You realize that is a veteran your talking to right?

He's fine doing himself what he accuses others of and is unable to draw a distinction. He's a fuqn hypocritical partisan who can only parrot the talking points he picks up from his media sources. And he's not someone I would trust to ever have another's back, someone I'd never share a foxhole with. He'd cut and run at the first sign of trouble.
02-11-2020 02:08 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-10-2020 03:39 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 03:07 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 02:09 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 01:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:39 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's something I find interesting about Vindman. The left keeps propping him up as a war hero because he got a Purple Heart. He was commissioned in 1999, so he has 21 years of service time. In that time, we've been at war for 18 of them. He deployed to South Korea and Germany and has one year of combat service, Sept 2004 to Sept 2005. When other soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen were doing three or four combat deployments, he was one and done. And he was injured by an IED, his Purple Heart, in October 2004, so we don't know exactly how much of that one year was actually combat time. He spent the rest of the time going to grad school and serving in various embassy and staff billets. That is not the resume of a war hero.

I've know officers like him, who padded their career with staff and diplomatic positions. They are competent paper shufflers, but hardly war heroes. They get by by kissing butts, not by doing things.

You're despicable dude.

Wow. You realize that is a veteran your talking to right?

Right, and he's calling an active duty service member with a purple heart a traitor, among other things.

You should read the glowing review his fellow Army Rangers gave him.

They tried to vote him out of the rangers. He was pushed thru anyway because of his proficiency in other languages.

He also doesnt have a bronze star. You might want to investigate why that is.

His own boss called him an activist in a uniform.

he doesn't care. he has his fingers in his ears going lalalalalalalalalalala. he's a fuqn moron.
02-11-2020 02:11 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-10-2020 04:44 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 03:07 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 02:09 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 01:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 09:39 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's something I find interesting about Vindman. The left keeps propping him up as a war hero because he got a Purple Heart. He was commissioned in 1999, so he has 21 years of service time. In that time, we've been at war for 18 of them. He deployed to South Korea and Germany and has one year of combat service, Sept 2004 to Sept 2005. When other soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen were doing three or four combat deployments, he was one and done. And he was injured by an IED, his Purple Heart, in October 2004, so we don't know exactly how much of that one year was actually combat time. He spent the rest of the time going to grad school and serving in various embassy and staff billets. That is not the resume of a war hero.
I've know officers like him, who padded their career with staff and diplomatic positions. They are competent paper shufflers, but hardly war heroes. They get by by kissing butts, not by doing things.
You're despicable dude.
Wow. You realize that is a veteran your talking to right?
Right, and he's calling an active duty service member with a purple heart a traitor, among other things.

If that’s your takeaway, then you know something I don’t and are conflating it. My only point is that I’ve known officers like him and I generally have little respect for them. You read that as traitor. Not much I can do about that.

He's exactly who the famous quote about arguing with stupid people was referencing.
02-11-2020 02:13 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-11-2020 01:51 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 12:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other thing that I don't understand. There seems to be this new-found opinion on the left that Cabinet members and White House staff cannot be loyal to the president, but must be totally non-partisan (which seems to be interpreted as meaning opposing him).

Opinion of whom? I've heard no such thing anywhere.

Right, because you are in the know about everything. GTOH moron.
02-11-2020 02:16 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-11-2020 01:51 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 12:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other thing that I don't understand. There seems to be this new-found opinion on the left that Cabinet members and White House staff cannot be loyal to the president, but must be totally non-partisan (which seems to be interpreted as meaning opposing him).
Opinion of whom? I've heard no such thing anywhere.

You're kidding, right?
02-11-2020 08:54 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-11-2020 08:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 01:51 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 12:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other thing that I don't understand. There seems to be this new-found opinion on the left that Cabinet members and White House staff cannot be loyal to the president, but must be totally non-partisan (which seems to be interpreted as meaning opposing him).
Opinion of whom? I've heard no such thing anywhere.

You're kidding, right?

Not at all. The only thing I've heard are those saying things to the effect that loyalty should not equal breaking the law. I've never heard anyone EVER claim your cabinet should be non-partisan. And hell, even Obama tried to get a Republican or two in his cabinet...I don't see much of anything like that from trump, not anyone coming close to demanding it.
02-12-2020 09:13 AM
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Post: #55
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-12-2020 09:13 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 08:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 01:51 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 12:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other thing that I don't understand. There seems to be this new-found opinion on the left that Cabinet members and White House staff cannot be loyal to the president, but must be totally non-partisan (which seems to be interpreted as meaning opposing him).
Opinion of whom? I've heard no such thing anywhere.

You're kidding, right?

Not at all. The only thing I've heard are those saying things to the effect that loyalty should not equal breaking the law. I've never heard anyone EVER claim your cabinet should be non-partisan. And hell, even Obama tried to get a Republican or two in his cabinet...I don't see much of anything like that from trump, not anyone coming close to demanding it.

The only person we have proof that broke a law was IUD Vindman. By his own testimony.

I have a feeling this is where you either fake a vacation out of here, or you become so obtuse that your diameter exceeds that of the star Betelguese.
02-12-2020 09:24 AM
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Post: #56
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-12-2020 09:13 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 08:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 01:51 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 12:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other thing that I don't understand. There seems to be this new-found opinion on the left that Cabinet members and White House staff cannot be loyal to the president, but must be totally non-partisan (which seems to be interpreted as meaning opposing him).
Opinion of whom? I've heard no such thing anywhere.
You're kidding, right?
Not at all. The only thing I've heard are those saying things to the effect that loyalty should not equal breaking the law. I've never heard anyone EVER claim your cabinet should be non-partisan. And hell, even Obama tried to get a Republican or two in his cabinet...I don't see much of anything like that from trump, not anyone coming close to demanding it.

Wow! Just wow!
02-12-2020 09:25 AM
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Post: #57
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-12-2020 09:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-12-2020 09:13 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 08:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 01:51 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 12:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other thing that I don't understand. There seems to be this new-found opinion on the left that Cabinet members and White House staff cannot be loyal to the president, but must be totally non-partisan (which seems to be interpreted as meaning opposing him).
Opinion of whom? I've heard no such thing anywhere.
You're kidding, right?
Not at all. The only thing I've heard are those saying things to the effect that loyalty should not equal breaking the law. I've never heard anyone EVER claim your cabinet should be non-partisan. And hell, even Obama tried to get a Republican or two in his cabinet...I don't see much of anything like that from trump, not anyone coming close to demanding it.

Wow! Just wow!
The Democrats should be the ostrich party, not donkeys. Heads in the sand.
02-12-2020 10:08 AM
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Post: #58
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-12-2020 09:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-12-2020 09:13 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 08:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 01:51 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 12:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other thing that I don't understand. There seems to be this new-found opinion on the left that Cabinet members and White House staff cannot be loyal to the president, but must be totally non-partisan (which seems to be interpreted as meaning opposing him).
Opinion of whom? I've heard no such thing anywhere.
You're kidding, right?
Not at all. The only thing I've heard are those saying things to the effect that loyalty should not equal breaking the law. I've never heard anyone EVER claim your cabinet should be non-partisan. And hell, even Obama tried to get a Republican or two in his cabinet...I don't see much of anything like that from trump, not anyone coming close to demanding it.

Wow! Just wow!

Okay....just saying I've heard no such thing. Can you source any comments from anyone regarding this?
02-12-2020 10:25 AM
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Post: #59
RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-12-2020 10:25 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2020 09:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-12-2020 09:13 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 08:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 01:51 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Opinion of whom? I've heard no such thing anywhere.
You're kidding, right?
Not at all. The only thing I've heard are those saying things to the effect that loyalty should not equal breaking the law. I've never heard anyone EVER claim your cabinet should be non-partisan. And hell, even Obama tried to get a Republican or two in his cabinet...I don't see much of anything like that from trump, not anyone coming close to demanding it.
Wow! Just wow!
Okay....just saying I've heard no such thing. Can you source any comments from anyone regarding this?

For starters, the disgust that Trump would even ask an appointee about loyalty. The outrage that Barr would not turn against Trump over a Mueller report that said essentially nothing would be another instance. The admiration for Vindman (a "decorated war hero" with one Purple Heart and one year of combat in a 21-year career, at a time when many were pulling 2 and 3 coat tours) for disclosing classified information outside his chain of command to persons who may have had the clearance but may not have had the need to know pretty clearly describes what is expected by the left. And the information disclosed by Vindman doesn't even add up to anything material.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2020 10:50 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
02-12-2020 10:35 AM
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RE: Growing calls for IUD Vindman to be fired / courtmartialed
(02-12-2020 10:35 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-12-2020 10:25 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2020 09:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-12-2020 09:13 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 08:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  You're kidding, right?
Not at all. The only thing I've heard are those saying things to the effect that loyalty should not equal breaking the law. I've never heard anyone EVER claim your cabinet should be non-partisan. And hell, even Obama tried to get a Republican or two in his cabinet...I don't see much of anything like that from trump, not anyone coming close to demanding it.
Wow! Just wow!
Okay....just saying I've heard no such thing. Can you source any comments from anyone regarding this?

For starters, the disgust that Trump would even ask an appointee about loyalty. The outrage that Barr would not turn against Trump over a Mueller report that said essentially nothing would be another instance. The admiration for Vindman (a "decorated war hero" with one Purple Heart and one year of combat in a 21-year career, at a time when many were pulling 2 and 3 coat tours) for disclosing classified information outside his chain of command to persons who may have had the clearance but may not have had the need to know pretty clearly describes what is expected by the left. And the information disclosed by Vindman doesn't even add up to anything material.

Don't forget Sally Yates and others refusing to do what they were instructed to do. Things that have repeatedly been approved by even liberal appeals courts.
02-12-2020 10:59 AM
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