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Rein them in, call plays from the start
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DDrum1961 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
(02-06-2020 06:15 AM)Tigermemphis Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 02:21 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  On the plus side we only had 16 turnovers, 2 more than I hoped for but less than we've been having.

That's just an incredible statement. Can you believe we are all thinking this way? "on the plus side we only had 16 turnovers". I'm happy about that too, but that's insane that a fan or any knowledgeable basketball person would be happy about 16 turnovers (usually half to 2/3 of them are completely unforced). But that's this team. At least we didn't have 25 so hooray!

They are what they are. A bunch of 18 and 19 year olds who want to play fast and fun. I am not dogging them.......I like watching the talent and what they are capable at times, but I definitely am setting a record on the number of screaming outbursts and pillow beating for me this year every time they throw the ball wherever.

Hope we can make the tourney and see what happens.

TM

Can someone tell Toppert to stop yelling out at ALo when he's bringing the ball up in the backcourt ... Twice Alex turns his head towards the bench, and the ball gets stolen ....
02-06-2020 03:32 PM
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ShilohTiger Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
(02-06-2020 12:18 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(02-05-2020 10:45 PM)ShilohTiger Wrote:  
(02-05-2020 10:14 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  Glad to hear Penny saying he has started calling plays. Should have been from the beginning.

We’ve heard Penny say this half a dozen times at halftime.
“I need to rein them in, use the reins, call more set plays”
Even the announcers called him out on it in the 2nd half.
If you’re constantly having to do this, why let them play haphazard in the first place?

We know Penny has the basketball IQ. I believe the question here is does he have the dogged patience and coaching ethic to change philosophy mid season?

Every player wants to push the pace, and the coach has been cheering them on from the start....I believe he tells them, if you can build a lead, then I’ll let you continue to play fast and make you’re own choices. I think this is a habit learned from an NBA style that just doesn’t work in college, especially with freshmen. How many NBA games are free wheeling that only get serious in the 4th quarter?

He’s effectively admitting to this Achilles heel issue on National TV every week. Two weeks ago his final pregame speech word was “Zoom!”

But we’ve seen a dozen times this team fall behind early, and have to crawl back. It’s not working. Also, it’s not how he’ll be able to coach or play in the conference tournament or NCAA’s against quality competition.

This team doesn’t value every possession and it shows. If our coach valued every possession then he’d demonstrate it by forcing them to slow it down and be more deliberate.

He’s also admitted that he’s surprised at the defensive rankings and poor offensive play.

Maybe it’s a style thing, and we will never change. As fans we love a fast pace, but smart Tiger fans would say adjust the tempo based on your players capabilities. We’d all like to see less turnovers at the cost of scoring fewer points.

I feel like the coaches got this team and designed a sports car with Bond gadgets that goes fast and plays great defense.

But the car has evolved in the season into a Mack Truck. (Think Virginia)
Coach has to adjust his driving style because a truck can still win the conference tournament and beyond. What if the team goal is to keep them under 50, not first to 80. Win ugly games under 50 points?
It’s not fun to play or coach, but it is fun to win.

I love Coach Hardaway’s honesty and direct frankness especially in his press conferences. But he’s so open, that there’s nothing to hide. We see it in games, we hear it over and over.

The team played well tonight. I’m glad for this win. Here’s to winning a lot more by the end of the season...
There is a fine line here. You don't want to reign them in too much that you take away the advantage of playing fast.

This team is built to play fast, but playing fast has also turned into playing too fast.

It's a fine line.

This is the kind of discussion I’m seeking.
I agree it’s a fine line, but we’ve demonstrated that we cross it over and over. It’s like a formula 1 car driving over the apex curb. The advantage is that straightening the corner out as much as possible, making the radius as large as possible. The larger the radius of the line you drive through a corner, the faster you can go.

However there are disadvantages, in formula 1, the bumping over the curb hurts the suspension, the tires lose grip, and it can actually slow the car down in the long run or even cause more crashes.

It’s a strategic decision that sometimes has to be adjusted based on actual results. Teams have to compromise in order to “go fast.”

We are crashing by trying to go fast, especially against quality competition.

In the press conference after Temple, Coach Penny called out three individual turnovers, Alo dribbling into traffic, Precious dribbling left handed, Baugh trying to pass before exiting a crowd...in each instance he sees it as an individual mistake.
And there is the chance that these will get corrected and each player will get better by tourney time. What I’m asking is —- do others see it as a strategic fundamental gameplan flaw?

My lowly opinion is that our defense can win games entirely if we slow the games down a lot more for the rest of this season. Our fast break points are terrible compared to years past and other teams. We are #25 in steals but our conversion of those is not good. We consistently lose the fast break points in the box scores. UConn 17 pts to our 4 points. We lost fast break points to Temple and still won by 14???! UCF 10-5. (Go look at the box scores, it’s ridiculous!)

That should tell us that we just don’t play well ”fast.”

We are #200 in offensive efficiency, but we are #2 in defensive efficiency and #2 in blocks. 5 less turnovers per game and our efficiency goes up by 100 spots in the rankings.
02-06-2020 03:40 PM
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ShilohTiger Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
For the people that say “look at the record, it must be working, why question results.”

I’ve live in a world where more lessons can be learned from wins than losses. Analyze the record, we are net50 for a reason. We still want to make the tournament and possibly Sweet 16 don’t we?

Secondarily, when a poster suggests an alternative style of play on a message board, please don’t confuse that with being critical of our coach. I’m using his words and projecting a hypothetical to an intelligent fan base. I don’t live in Memphis anymore and it’s the type of bull**** I’d throw out in a bar to a friend after watching a game.
If you think this affects recruiting, then I’m not even gonna....

For those not interested in discussion please move along.

I wrote the following before the Tulsa/SMU games.


Look, a lot of people want to live in a black and white world, good/bad, rich/poor, winner/loser, but that world is an illusion.
Many of us live in a grey world, with multiple shades that are hard to distinguish unless you look closely.

Is Coach Hardaway a good coach? Yes. Watch any press conference or practice, he’s smart with a high basketball IQ, and he really connects with his players with a very specific (maybe subtle) style. He’s a high performer. When you work with high performers a lot you’ll find that even the slightest details require attention.
Does he have areas of weakness or inexperience? Yes, but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Some of us want to openly discuss those areas in detail without saying he’s a terrible coach.

The number of turnovers is a problem. It is related to style of play. Until Coach addresses this area the ceiling on this team is more limited.
Quoting the record is pointless. Some of us know the record vs top 100 teams is only 5-3.
Coach has shown his ability to be flexible, learn from mistakes. We saw it during last years team. This year rebounding and defense has really gotten better. He’s evolving the lineup.
It’s funny, I’m the same age as Penny and in many ways he share’s a lot of Coach Finch’s style, most good, yet some bad. I could make a list, but not now. I’m happy with our record as it is...but I’m worried about playing in conference on the road based on a few of the items that have been brought up.....
02-06-2020 03:41 PM
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ShilohTiger Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
Where’s the advantage of playing fast?
02-06-2020 03:44 PM
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tigers0830 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
(02-06-2020 03:44 PM)ShilohTiger Wrote:  Where’s the advantage of playing fast?

The advantage is a lot of teams don't have the athleticism that we have. Get our guys in the open floor it's hard to slow them down. This team was recruited to play fast. The issue is they start to play too fast. Which leads to careless turnovers.

Keep them in a half court game and make the game ugly it's a struggle for us.

There just aren't many teams that can play an up tempo game with us. Again that's the advantage of playing fast.

Again it's a fine line that Penny is having to walk with reigning them in too much that it limits their advantage of pushing the tempo, but you also don't want them playing too fast to where they are careless with the basketball
02-06-2020 03:59 PM
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Tiger87 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
SMU is the one team who has tried to run with us lately. It did not work for them. It wasn't until SMU slowed it down and forced us to slow down, that they took control of the game. We made 4 turnovers during that fatal 5 minute stretch, and IIRC they were not tempo forced to's - at least not all of them.

I agree that Penny should call a few more sets throughout the game. I just don't think we need to become that walk-the-ball-up team all the team.
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2020 04:50 PM by Tiger87.)
02-06-2020 04:48 PM
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tiger86 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
(02-06-2020 03:41 PM)ShilohTiger Wrote:  For the people that say “look at the record, it must be working, why question results.”

I’ve live in a world where more lessons can be learned from wins than losses. Analyze the record, we are net50 for a reason. We still want to make the tournament and possibly Sweet 16 don’t we?

Secondarily, when a poster suggests an alternative style of play on a message board, please don’t confuse that with being critical of our coach. I’m using his words and projecting a hypothetical to an intelligent fan base. I don’t live in Memphis anymore and it’s the type of bull**** I’d throw out in a bar to a friend after watching a game.
If you think this affects recruiting, then I’m not even gonna....

For those not interested in discussion please move along.

I wrote the following before the Tulsa/SMU games.


Look, a lot of people want to live in a black and white world, good/bad, rich/poor, winner/loser, but that world is an illusion.
Many of us live in a grey world, with multiple shades that are hard to distinguish unless you look closely.

Is Coach Hardaway a good coach? Yes. Watch any press conference or practice, he’s smart with a high basketball IQ, and he really connects with his players with a very specific (maybe subtle) style. He’s a high performer. When you work with high performers a lot you’ll find that even the slightest details require attention.
Does he have areas of weakness or inexperience? Yes, but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Some of us want to openly discuss those areas in detail without saying he’s a terrible coach.

The number of turnovers is a problem. It is related to style of play. Until Coach addresses this area the ceiling on this team is more limited.
Quoting the record is pointless. Some of us know the record vs top 100 teams is only 5-3.
Coach has shown his ability to be flexible, learn from mistakes. We saw it during last years team. This year rebounding and defense has really gotten better. He’s evolving the lineup.
It’s funny, I’m the same age as Penny and in many ways he share’s a lot of Coach Finch’s style, most good, yet some bad. I could make a list, but not now. I’m happy with our record as it is...but I’m worried about playing in conference on the road based on a few of the items that have been brought up.....

17-5 missing his 2 best players. 'Nuff said.
02-06-2020 04:50 PM
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uskjtc02 Away
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Post: #28
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
And one of the best defenses in the country. This staff is doing a great job with this young team. Don’t care what anyone says.
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2020 05:26 PM by uskjtc02.)
02-06-2020 05:26 PM
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memtigbb Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
Like I have said from the very beginning... I am fine with the style of offense we are playing BUT we have to have set plays mixed in. Whenever we have 3 straight empty possessions, call a play. Whenever we look out of sorts, call a play. Whenever the kids start playing hero ball, call a play.

This is a very complicated offense that requires each player to not only make decisions based off of multiple variables, but to do so in concert with each other. If the player with the ball decides to drive and kick out, the other player has to decide to stay in place to receive the pass. If that player starts cutting during the drive, the ball sails into the stands. This is an offense that requires experience and basketball IQ. And it is unfair to expect a team of freshmen to be able to grasp it.
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2020 05:32 PM by memtigbb.)
02-06-2020 05:31 PM
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tigerpride96 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
(02-06-2020 05:26 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  And one of the best defenses in the country. This staff is doing a great job with this young team. Don’t care what anyone says.

Yeah, yeah we get it. Nevermind the terrible defensive issues like none of our players cut to the basket on opponents shots. Nevermind that none of the players defend players with the ball properly (not even a one hand up, one hand down approach). There's a reason why teams tend to shoot lights out against us, our players have not been taught how to defend properly.
02-06-2020 05:32 PM
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tigers0830 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
(02-06-2020 05:32 PM)tigerpride96 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 05:26 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  And one of the best defenses in the country. This staff is doing a great job with this young team. Don’t care what anyone says.

Yeah, yeah we get it. Nevermind the terrible defensive issues like none of our players cut to the basket on opponents shots. Nevermind that none of the players defend players with the ball properly (not even a one hand up, one hand down approach). There's a reason why teams tend to shoot lights out against us, our players have not been taught how to defend properly.

Teams shoot lights out against us? Huh

Teams are averaging 36% against us. We are second in the country behind Virginia.
02-06-2020 05:36 PM
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macgar32 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
(02-06-2020 05:36 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 05:32 PM)tigerpride96 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 05:26 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  And one of the best defenses in the country. This staff is doing a great job with this young team. Don’t care what anyone says.

Yeah, yeah we get it. Nevermind the terrible defensive issues like none of our players cut to the basket on opponents shots. Nevermind that none of the players defend players with the ball properly (not even a one hand up, one hand down approach). There's a reason why teams tend to shoot lights out against us, our players have not been taught how to defend properly.

Teams shoot lights out against us? Huh

Teams are averaging 36% against us. We are second in the country behind Virginia.

Yeah I don't get that statement...While some of what he says is true...We have some horses out there on the defensive end...So that covers a lot of mistakes.

But regardless of the reason we are a very good defensive team. But I still say Penny needs to quit allowing easy switches where guard ends up in the post on a big. The chubby kid from Temple was very effective yesterday being patient and backing our guards down after a switch and as soon as help came he hit the open guy.
02-06-2020 06:36 PM
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memtigbb Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
I think our guys play really hard on defense and overall they are a solid defense, but not as good as the numbers say they are. We have had a lot of games against teams who were shooting as bad as we were, it is contagious. Both teams would miss wide open 3s. We leave open shooters all the time, even last night we were constantly running back to the shooter. Gonna have to quit leaving the shooters alone to run in to the post for help defense. Let the big guy do the help defense, you stick to your man and be ready to block him out if the shot misses.
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2020 06:52 PM by memtigbb.)
02-06-2020 06:51 PM
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uskjtc02 Away
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Post: #34
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
(02-06-2020 05:32 PM)tigerpride96 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 05:26 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  And one of the best defenses in the country. This staff is doing a great job with this young team. Don’t care what anyone says.

Yeah, yeah we get it. Nevermind the terrible defensive issues like none of our players cut to the basket on opponents shots. Nevermind that none of the players defend players with the ball properly (not even a one hand up, one hand down approach). There's a reason why teams tend to shoot lights out against us, our players have not been taught how to defend properly.

Are you really that freaking clueless. Teams don’t shoot well against us.
02-06-2020 07:30 PM
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ShilohTiger Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
On the defensive side, it’s scary how good we could become because the energy is always there. Our blocks, length, altered shots, and rebounding has made up for some transgressions on the perimeter, especially. So kudos to these Tigers for their defense and the coaches for instilling that fight and will to play in them.
02-06-2020 07:46 PM
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UOFMGLENN Offline
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RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
So many coaches not enough jobs to go around so I guess they come here to vent.
02-06-2020 08:07 PM
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ShilohTiger Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
Offensively, would you say our shot selection and offense runs smoother/better early in the shot clock?

What’s our average fast break pts/game and where do we rank?

I think there are some misperceptions about us playing with tempo.
I’d like to see some stats on our effective FG% with 10 secs into the shot clock versus later...
We are not a high scoring team against quality competition.
We average 73 pts/game but most of that came against 100+ teams and it’s still #86 in the country.

I’m saying we “try” to play fast but really we don’t, or we don’t do it well.
Anyone got the Kenpom #’s?

We average ~65 pts/game vs top 100 teams and we are 5-4.

Against those 9 teams we averaged only 8 fast break points. EIGHT!!!! Per game.
That’s not an up tempo team.

I’m trying to convince y’all that while we talk a fast pace and fast breaking team, we are not one. But in trying to be one, we force a lot of turnovers that create 4-8 points swings and runs.

I hear ya about calling set plays when we get into trouble. My suggestion is don’t allow them to get into trouble. Play pragmatic. Call plays early and build a lead, then run. Not the other way around.

Show me some stats.
02-06-2020 08:14 PM
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ShilohTiger Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
(02-06-2020 08:07 PM)UOFMGLENN Wrote:  So many coaches not enough jobs to go around so I guess they come here to vent.

Your contribution or lack there of is duly noted
04-chairshot
02-06-2020 08:17 PM
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Tiger87 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
(02-06-2020 05:32 PM)tigerpride96 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 05:26 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  And one of the best defenses in the country. This staff is doing a great job with this young team. Don’t care what anyone says.

Yeah, yeah we get it. Nevermind the terrible defensive issues like none of our players cut to the basket on opponents shots. Nevermind that none of the players defend players with the ball properly (not even a one hand up, one hand down approach). There's a reason why teams tend to shoot lights out against us, our players have not been taught how to defend properly.

wow
02-06-2020 08:50 PM
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UOFMGLENN Offline
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RE: Rein them in, call plays from the start
(02-06-2020 08:17 PM)ShilohTiger Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 08:07 PM)UOFMGLENN Wrote:  So many coaches not enough jobs to go around so I guess they come here to vent.

Your contribution or lack there of is duly noted
04-chairshot

That’s very kind of you. Thank you
02-06-2020 09:28 PM
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