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***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
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SeñorTiger Offline
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Post: #181
RE: ***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
(02-06-2020 12:35 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 12:27 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 12:23 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:38 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:09 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The stat is based on usage % from Torvik. Baugh has the worst advanced metrics on the team for the minutes he gets.

Yeah...The turnover percentage stat is trash...

If Baugh takes 10 shots his TO% is 33%. That doesn't indicate he took better care of the ball.

If any player takes 0 shots has 10 assists and 2 turnovers his TO% is 100%. That stat is trash.

But yeah box score wise Baugh doesn't put up great numbers...But defensively he is very good and stopping his man from scoring doesn't show up in the boxscore unfortunately.

The point remains that Baugh's minutes need to get cut and he doesn't need to be a starter. Jayden has a higher offensive rating (still terrible), only Malcolm has a higher TO% (but they are eventful for sure), 61% from the free throw line for a driver is far from ideal, and its not like he is dishing out assists. He is just not providing much value and is having a pretty terrible year statistically (defensive stats included) compared to others who probably deserve the minutes over him. All 3 of our most recent wins he has had a negative +/- (Tyler is the only other player with the accomplishment). That is hard to do when your team is winning.

That is the problem. As of right now today ALo is playing just a tiny little bit better than Baugh. So you have to make the decision, do you play for the current game (which we probably need to ensure we make the tournament) or do you do your best go get Baugh developed for the tournament? I am going to say it right now, if ALo is our best PG in the tournament, pack very lightly, we wont be there long enough to get settled in. We have to have good guard play to do anything in the tournament. Guard play has been the proven difference maker in the tournament year after year after year. Right now (and the commentators were saying it last night) our pg play is pretty bad.

While I agree, a good Baugh is what we need to advance. A bad Baugh is what we have right now. He will get better, but Alex is our only shot to make the tournament this year. With his recent slump though, we are probably out of luck. Alex, Tyler, and Damion are not helping right now. Precious is also slumping unfortunately.

Slumping?
10 and 6 (Tulsa)
15 and 9
18 and 13
16 and 8
13 and 10

Those are his last 5 games... His season averages are 15 and 10
02-06-2020 02:24 PM
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Titans3775 Offline
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Post: #182
RE: ***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
(02-06-2020 02:21 PM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 12:23 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:38 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:09 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 09:42 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  Where are you getting these stats?

If you are using the shots/assists vs. Turnovers metric that is trash.

Well if Baugh is 0% since Baugh had an assist the metric must be shots only vs. Turnovers which is even worse trash.

The stat is based on usage % from Torvik. Baugh has the worst advanced metrics on the team for the minutes he gets.

Yeah...The turnover percentage stat is trash...

If Baugh takes 10 shots his TO% is 33%. That doesn't indicate he took better care of the ball.

If any player takes 0 shots has 10 assists and 2 turnovers his TO% is 100%. That stat is trash.

But yeah box score wise Baugh doesn't put up great numbers...But defensively he is very good and stopping his man from scoring doesn't show up in the boxscore unfortunately.

The point remains that Baugh's minutes need to get cut and he doesn't need to be a starter. Jayden has a higher offensive rating (still terrible), only Malcolm has a higher TO% (but they are eventful for sure), 61% from the free throw line for a driver is far from ideal, and its not like he is dishing out assists. He is just not providing much value and is having a pretty terrible year statistically (defensive stats included) compared to others who probably deserve the minutes over him. All 3 of our most recent wins he has had a negative +/- (Tyler is the only other player with the accomplishment). That is hard to do when your team is winning.

This is where statistics and analytics become complete and total trash. More often than not you have to look beyond just the numbers. You would not really suggest giving Baugh's minutes to Jayden.

Literally never said that. They eye test says they both suck on offense.
02-06-2020 02:42 PM
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macgar32 Offline
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Post: #183
RE: ***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
(02-06-2020 12:23 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:38 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:09 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 09:42 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 09:20 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  Don't know if anyone else has said it yet, but Baugh is an absolute black hole on the court right now. The decision to start him let alone play him is truly bad (although Lomax isn't playing much better). It shouldn't come as a surprise that we play much better without him on the court and built our lead when he went out because of fouls. I don't think it is a coincidence that our starting lineup without him meshes so much better. He will get there someday, but it doesn't appear to be this season.

*Baugh had a 100%(!) turnover % when used in the offense
*Lomax had a 54% turnover %
*Boogie at 15%
*Lester at 0%

Where are you getting these stats?

If you are using the shots/assists vs. Turnovers metric that is trash.

Well if Baugh is 0% since Baugh had an assist the metric must be shots only vs. Turnovers which is even worse trash.

The stat is based on usage % from Torvik. Baugh has the worst advanced metrics on the team for the minutes he gets.

Yeah...The turnover percentage stat is trash...

If Baugh takes 10 shots his TO% is 33%. That doesn't indicate he took better care of the ball.

If any player takes 0 shots has 10 assists and 2 turnovers his TO% is 100%. That stat is trash.

But yeah box score wise Baugh doesn't put up great numbers...But defensively he is very good and stopping his man from scoring doesn't show up in the boxscore unfortunately.

The point remains that Baugh's minutes need to get cut and he doesn't need to be a starter. Jayden has a higher offensive rating (still terrible), only Malcolm has a higher TO% (but they are eventful for sure), 61% from the free throw line for a driver is far from ideal, and its not like he is dishing out assists. He is just not providing much value and is having a pretty terrible year statistically (defensive stats included) compared to others who probably deserve the minutes over him. All 3 of our most recent wins he has had a negative +/- (Tyler is the only other player with the accomplishment). That is hard to do when your team is winning.

Why are you still quoting TO%...I showed you that it was trash...

If a player can have 15 assists 1 Turnover and 0 shots and show a TO% of 100% that stat is trash.

Baugh just doesn't shoot...If you are going to rate him based on that have at it and any defensive stat that relies on the boxscore is trash as well...rebounds, steals and blocks doesn't even come close to telling how a good a defender a player is.

Maurice Defensive Rating of 84.1 is the 3rd best on the team (Do you think that is true)...Most box score based numbers advanced numbers have so many holes they cannot be used...They are so far from the truth in so many instances.

Just to laugh further...Alo's offensive Rating is 3rd on the team higher than Precious by a good margin.

And the plus Minus numbers you are quoting are not true +/- they are boxscore plus minus...Not nearly the same thing (Precious had a -2.4 the worst on the team last night)...TRASH STATS
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2020 03:30 PM by macgar32.)
02-06-2020 03:00 PM
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Titans3775 Offline
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Post: #184
RE: ***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
(02-06-2020 02:24 PM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 12:35 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 12:27 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 12:23 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:38 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  Yeah...The turnover percentage stat is trash...

If Baugh takes 10 shots his TO% is 33%. That doesn't indicate he took better care of the ball.

If any player takes 0 shots has 10 assists and 2 turnovers his TO% is 100%. That stat is trash.

But yeah box score wise Baugh doesn't put up great numbers...But defensively he is very good and stopping his man from scoring doesn't show up in the boxscore unfortunately.

The point remains that Baugh's minutes need to get cut and he doesn't need to be a starter. Jayden has a higher offensive rating (still terrible), only Malcolm has a higher TO% (but they are eventful for sure), 61% from the free throw line for a driver is far from ideal, and its not like he is dishing out assists. He is just not providing much value and is having a pretty terrible year statistically (defensive stats included) compared to others who probably deserve the minutes over him. All 3 of our most recent wins he has had a negative +/- (Tyler is the only other player with the accomplishment). That is hard to do when your team is winning.

That is the problem. As of right now today ALo is playing just a tiny little bit better than Baugh. So you have to make the decision, do you play for the current game (which we probably need to ensure we make the tournament) or do you do your best go get Baugh developed for the tournament? I am going to say it right now, if ALo is our best PG in the tournament, pack very lightly, we wont be there long enough to get settled in. We have to have good guard play to do anything in the tournament. Guard play has been the proven difference maker in the tournament year after year after year. Right now (and the commentators were saying it last night) our pg play is pretty bad.

While I agree, a good Baugh is what we need to advance. A bad Baugh is what we have right now. He will get better, but Alex is our only shot to make the tournament this year. With his recent slump though, we are probably out of luck. Alex, Tyler, and Damion are not helping right now. Precious is also slumping unfortunately.

Slumping?
10 and 6 (Tulsa)
15 and 9
18 and 13
16 and 8
13 and 10

Those are his last 5 games... His season averages are 15 and 10

He is 100% slumping. 3 of his last 5 games have been his worst of the season since Wiseman left. He has 11 turnovers in the last two games against bad competition.
His last 6 games:
1 game with an offensive rating above 100
2 games with an eFG% above 50
His previous 6 games:
5 games with an offensive rating above 100
6 games with an eFG% above 50
02-06-2020 03:04 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #185
RE: ***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
Slowly but surely taking a little bit better care of the ball, getting much better shots in our halfcourt offense, still playing good defense. Our defensive rebounding has been quite good lately I think.
02-06-2020 04:09 PM
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uskjtc02 Away
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Post: #186
RE: ***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
(02-06-2020 10:58 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:50 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:18 AM)mairving Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:09 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 09:42 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  Where are you getting these stats?

If you are using the shots/assists vs. Turnovers metric that is trash.

Well if Baugh is 0% since Baugh had an assist the metric must be shots only vs. Turnovers which is even worse trash.

The stat is based on usage % from Torvik. Baugh has the worst advanced metrics on the team for the minutes he gets.

He's a good defender. He's only taken 83 shots all year long (less than 4 a game). He really only can do layups, dunks and an occasional 3. As strong as he is he should be effective posting up guys but never does that. He either needs to shoot more 3's or develop a mid-range game. He did help us win a few games this year.

I think most people had given up on Boogie and Lance but they seem to be playing really well. Hopefully Baugh turns the corner.

Baugh will be fine in the long run. He has the tools to be a great college player and probably borderline pro with his length and athleticism and ability to defend. He just needs time and experience to develop. We are not talking about a 5* player here, so needed development over a year or two really should have been the expectation for him.

Alo concerns me much more. He has seemingly regressed and gone back to trying to do way too much again. I wish he would forget that euro step move. He has no elevation when he does that and almost always ends up in a terrible position to shoot or pass. When Alo is focused on being the floor general and just making the smart play he is a fantastic point guard but when he is trying to be Chris Paul he is just a turnover machine.

Yep Alo is pre-determining what he is going to do many times that is why he gets hung up. Needs to slow down and let it come to him...But that comes with experience.

And I think Baugh goes as far as Baugh wants to...I think he can develop a shot...Will he put in the work to make that a reality? If he does the sky is the limit.

The scouts at pro day loved Baugh.
02-06-2020 05:10 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #187
RE: ***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
(02-06-2020 05:10 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:58 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:50 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:18 AM)mairving Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:09 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The stat is based on usage % from Torvik. Baugh has the worst advanced metrics on the team for the minutes he gets.

He's a good defender. He's only taken 83 shots all year long (less than 4 a game). He really only can do layups, dunks and an occasional 3. As strong as he is he should be effective posting up guys but never does that. He either needs to shoot more 3's or develop a mid-range game. He did help us win a few games this year.

I think most people had given up on Boogie and Lance but they seem to be playing really well. Hopefully Baugh turns the corner.

Baugh will be fine in the long run. He has the tools to be a great college player and probably borderline pro with his length and athleticism and ability to defend. He just needs time and experience to develop. We are not talking about a 5* player here, so needed development over a year or two really should have been the expectation for him.

Alo concerns me much more. He has seemingly regressed and gone back to trying to do way too much again. I wish he would forget that euro step move. He has no elevation when he does that and almost always ends up in a terrible position to shoot or pass. When Alo is focused on being the floor general and just making the smart play he is a fantastic point guard but when he is trying to be Chris Paul he is just a turnover machine.

Yep Alo is pre-determining what he is going to do many times that is why he gets hung up. Needs to slow down and let it come to him...But that comes with experience.

And I think Baugh goes as far as Baugh wants to...I think he can develop a shot...Will he put in the work to make that a reality? If he does the sky is the limit.

The scouts at pro day loved Baugh.

I would imagine that his measurables are great. Good height and strength, very quick, fast, strong, good shot, fairly good handle with both hands, etc. The issue is that right now he is that as a point guard, he can't create shots for anyone. That is fine as long as you have a point guard that can get into the lane and get the ball to him, but right now he is spinning his wheels.

Lomax and Tyler are better and Boogie is by far our best option right now. Boogie is the only guard that can run the pick and roll effectively and has by far the most potential. LQ is decent but not great.
02-06-2020 05:15 PM
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uskjtc02 Away
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Post: #188
RE: ***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
(02-06-2020 11:48 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  In my opinion, Baugh and ALo are neck and neck. At times ALo plays a little better than Baugh. Because of that I would be willing to give ALo the nod. On the other hand, ALo is what he is, he isnt going to get a lot better than what he is right now. Yes, there will be some improvement over the next 2 years, but as we all know, the biggest jump in development comes from freshman to sophomore. His development from this stage will be incremental. Whereas Baugh still has his big sophomore leap coming, and his ceiling is about 2 stories higher than ALos will ever be. So in some ways I can see starting Baugh over ALo, to help development.

The biggest improvement does usually come from fresh to soph, but not always. Players develop at different rates. Some never reach their potential and some surpass what they were ever suppose to be. Peso is a good example.
02-06-2020 05:15 PM
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memtigbb Offline
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Post: #189
RE: ***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
(02-06-2020 05:15 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 11:48 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  In my opinion, Baugh and ALo are neck and neck. At times ALo plays a little better than Baugh. Because of that I would be willing to give ALo the nod. On the other hand, ALo is what he is, he isnt going to get a lot better than what he is right now. Yes, there will be some improvement over the next 2 years, but as we all know, the biggest jump in development comes from freshman to sophomore. His development from this stage will be incremental. Whereas Baugh still has his big sophomore leap coming, and his ceiling is about 2 stories higher than ALos will ever be. So in some ways I can see starting Baugh over ALo, to help development.

The biggest improvement does usually come from fresh to soph, but not always. Players develop at different rates. Some never reach their potential and some surpass what they were ever suppose to be. Peso is a good example.

Problem with the Peso example is he didnt get the same amount of minutes his freshman to sophomore years. So his big jump came late.
02-06-2020 05:22 PM
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SeñorTiger Offline
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Post: #190
RE: ***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
(02-06-2020 02:42 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 02:21 PM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 12:23 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:38 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 10:09 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The stat is based on usage % from Torvik. Baugh has the worst advanced metrics on the team for the minutes he gets.

Yeah...The turnover percentage stat is trash...

If Baugh takes 10 shots his TO% is 33%. That doesn't indicate he took better care of the ball.

If any player takes 0 shots has 10 assists and 2 turnovers his TO% is 100%. That stat is trash.

But yeah box score wise Baugh doesn't put up great numbers...But defensively he is very good and stopping his man from scoring doesn't show up in the boxscore unfortunately.

The point remains that Baugh's minutes need to get cut and he doesn't need to be a starter. Jayden has a higher offensive rating (still terrible), only Malcolm has a higher TO% (but they are eventful for sure), 61% from the free throw line for a driver is far from ideal, and its not like he is dishing out assists. He is just not providing much value and is having a pretty terrible year statistically (defensive stats included) compared to others who probably deserve the minutes over him. All 3 of our most recent wins he has had a negative +/- (Tyler is the only other player with the accomplishment). That is hard to do when your team is winning.

This is where statistics and analytics become complete and total trash. More often than not you have to look beyond just the numbers. You would not really suggest giving Baugh's minutes to Jayden.

Literally never said that. They eye test says they both suck on offense.

Right, but that’s what the analytics are saying that you are going on and on about. Offense is only 50% of the game. People make a living in the NBA with being predominately fantastic defenders. Baugh is an exceptionally better defender than Jayden and because of his size, length and quickness is a much better option in our defensive scheme than Alo or Harris.
02-06-2020 08:21 PM
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SeñorTiger Offline
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Post: #191
RE: ***Official Memphis vs Temple Game Thread*** (2/5)
(02-06-2020 03:04 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 02:24 PM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 12:35 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 12:27 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 12:23 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The point remains that Baugh's minutes need to get cut and he doesn't need to be a starter. Jayden has a higher offensive rating (still terrible), only Malcolm has a higher TO% (but they are eventful for sure), 61% from the free throw line for a driver is far from ideal, and its not like he is dishing out assists. He is just not providing much value and is having a pretty terrible year statistically (defensive stats included) compared to others who probably deserve the minutes over him. All 3 of our most recent wins he has had a negative +/- (Tyler is the only other player with the accomplishment). That is hard to do when your team is winning.

That is the problem. As of right now today ALo is playing just a tiny little bit better than Baugh. So you have to make the decision, do you play for the current game (which we probably need to ensure we make the tournament) or do you do your best go get Baugh developed for the tournament? I am going to say it right now, if ALo is our best PG in the tournament, pack very lightly, we wont be there long enough to get settled in. We have to have good guard play to do anything in the tournament. Guard play has been the proven difference maker in the tournament year after year after year. Right now (and the commentators were saying it last night) our pg play is pretty bad.

While I agree, a good Baugh is what we need to advance. A bad Baugh is what we have right now. He will get better, but Alex is our only shot to make the tournament this year. With his recent slump though, we are probably out of luck. Alex, Tyler, and Damion are not helping right now. Precious is also slumping unfortunately.

Slumping?
10 and 6 (Tulsa)
15 and 9
18 and 13
16 and 8
13 and 10

Those are his last 5 games... His season averages are 15 and 10

He is 100% slumping. 3 of his last 5 games have been his worst of the season since Wiseman left. He has 11 turnovers in the last two games against bad competition.
His last 6 games:
1 game with an offensive rating above 100
2 games with an eFG% above 50
His previous 6 games:
5 games with an offensive rating above 100
6 games with an eFG% above 50

Basically, he cane back down to earth as we got into conference and lots of tape became available. That’s to be expected. He is playing at an extremely high level for a freshman and has carried this team all season. We would be one heck of a team if all of players were as productive of him during his “slump”.
02-06-2020 08:25 PM
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