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I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
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Purple Offline
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Post: #61
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-08-2020 09:52 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  
(02-08-2020 07:57 PM)Purple Wrote:  
(02-07-2020 10:12 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  
(02-07-2020 07:41 PM)Purple Wrote:  
(02-05-2020 12:28 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  In the case of Polk and Palmer it was easy to evaluate them the first year on the field, and they were both homeruns brought in very late. To me that was just a taste of what we are going to see from Cig’s classes. Those 300 pounders we landed won’t be out of shape for long with our staff if they are now, and I suspect many of these are just “sleepers” that other big programs missed. Think we are finding a few Dylan Stapleton types that are hidden talent, and that’s not a bad thing.

I think Cig specializes in sleepers. He and Saban both said they don't care a bit about stars beside a kid's name. Recruiting sleepers will make you look like you don't know what you are doing. I think Cig knows what he is doing, but it won't show up in the recruiting evaluations, which are meaningless.

You technically can't specialize in a sleeper. If we had a list full of three stars this thread wouldn't have existed. Evaluations do matter. And all these high dollar coaches pay some sort of recruiting services in order to stay ahead of recruiting. Recruiting at this level makes or breaks a coach at a school like JMU. Also these evaluations can come from camps where they measure potential as well ( size, speed , strength). I don't believe in Transfers until they practice against our starters.

No, you don't specialize in "a sleeper." But, specializing in kids who are flying under the radar, "sleepers," is certainly something a coach can specialize in and I believe Cig is an expert at it. I believe Alabama came back from the dead (while Cig was the Tide recruiting coordinator) in large part by hunting for sleepers.

There are lots of sleepers out there. Kids who were injured in their junior seasons, that critically important year when scouts really start looking at them is a good example. Seniors who never got to start before their senior season because they were playing behind a blue chip, even though they were as good or better themselves. Marcus Mariota is a good example. I have told the story on Marcus here before.

There are lots of sleepers out there. Most coaches and scouts tend to be attracted to the stars. For the smart ones, the stars are not very important at all. You have to evaluate horseflesh in person, and a good scout can spot a diamond in the rough superstar almost immediately. They are out there.

Mariota is only one example. Were it not for a scouting trip to his high school by an Oregon assistant to see another kid, he may never have gone to college, at least not with an athletic scholarship. Now he has a Heisman Trophy, $45 million, and stands to make a lot more.

Sleepers exist, and if I were a coach, I would be mining that rich field non-stop.
Alabama is Alabama because they sign 4* and 5* recruits. LOTS of them. Including when Cig was there.

Where did I say Alabama doesn't sign 4- and 5-star player? Of course they do. I'm saying that both Cig and Saban are on record saying that stars are not what matters and they both pay little attention to the stars by a kid's name.
02-09-2020 12:29 PM
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Dukes84 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
Just a few additional points:

1. Cig added Colclough (Temple transfer), Thornton (VMI transfer), Curry (original D2 commit), Palmer (Good Counsel late add) , Polk (Penn State transfer) and Taurus Jones (a 3 star linebacker that committed late, but had FBS offers and was rated 3 stars) to Houston's class that had been lauded. He only lost one player from the Houston class.
2. Of the 19 member or so class for 2020, I thought I saw 8 listed among the top 30 CAA recruits as per Hero Sports (and that listing seems to exclude FBS transfers and only looks at 4 year players). A number of those guys have multiple offers, including offers from FBS programs, including schools like VA Tech, VA, App State and East Carolina.
3. The 2020 class also includes the transfers broken out by BDK; i.e., Bracey from Duke, the Minn DL, the UConn offensive lineman and the Mass safety (Norwood). I was critical of Bracey in the other thread, but if you watch his highlights, he's incredibly impressive from an athletic standpoint. A who's who of college football programs offered him, including, I thought, Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio State, Clemson and UCLA.
02-09-2020 01:50 PM
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BDKJMU Offline
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Post: #63
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-09-2020 12:29 PM)Purple Wrote:  
(02-08-2020 09:52 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  
(02-08-2020 07:57 PM)Purple Wrote:  
(02-07-2020 10:12 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  
(02-07-2020 07:41 PM)Purple Wrote:  I think Cig specializes in sleepers. He and Saban both said they don't care a bit about stars beside a kid's name. Recruiting sleepers will make you look like you don't know what you are doing. I think Cig knows what he is doing, but it won't show up in the recruiting evaluations, which are meaningless.

You technically can't specialize in a sleeper. If we had a list full of three stars this thread wouldn't have existed. Evaluations do matter. And all these high dollar coaches pay some sort of recruiting services in order to stay ahead of recruiting. Recruiting at this level makes or breaks a coach at a school like JMU. Also these evaluations can come from camps where they measure potential as well ( size, speed , strength). I don't believe in Transfers until they practice against our starters.

No, you don't specialize in "a sleeper." But, specializing in kids who are flying under the radar, "sleepers," is certainly something a coach can specialize in and I believe Cig is an expert at it. I believe Alabama came back from the dead (while Cig was the Tide recruiting coordinator) in large part by hunting for sleepers.

There are lots of sleepers out there. Kids who were injured in their junior seasons, that critically important year when scouts really start looking at them is a good example. Seniors who never got to start before their senior season because they were playing behind a blue chip, even though they were as good or better themselves. Marcus Mariota is a good example. I have told the story on Marcus here before.

There are lots of sleepers out there. Most coaches and scouts tend to be attracted to the stars. For the smart ones, the stars are not very important at all. You have to evaluate horseflesh in person, and a good scout can spot a diamond in the rough superstar almost immediately. They are out there.

Mariota is only one example. Were it not for a scouting trip to his high school by an Oregon assistant to see another kid, he may never have gone to college, at least not with an athletic scholarship. Now he has a Heisman Trophy, $45 million, and stands to make a lot more.

Sleepers exist, and if I were a coach, I would be mining that rich field non-stop.
Alabama is Alabama because they sign 4* and 5* recruits. LOTS of them. Including when Cig was there.

Where did I say Alabama doesn't sign 4- and 5-star player? Of course they do. I'm saying that both Cig and Saban are on record saying that stars are not what matters and they both pay little attention to the stars by a kid's name.
Well they might not pay attention to stars, but Bama just happens to sign most mostly 4 and 5 star every season since going back to the previous decade after Saban arrived. Bama’s 25 commits according to 247:
-4 five star
-17 four star
-4 three star
https://247sports.com/college/alabama/Se...l/Commits/

And Bama might have slipped a little the last few years, as Clempson, LSU, and Jawja are probably getting some guys they used to get..
02-09-2020 02:37 PM
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olddawg Online
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Post: #64
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
Saban can say that all he wants about not caring about stars, but it's not really accurate though. Bama consistently gets top recruiting classes. Calling them "ratings" rather than stars doesn't change anything. In their last recruiting class of 25, they have:
5 star players- 4 (out of 30)
4 star players-17 (out of 380)
3 star players-4

So the reality is that his recruiting classes are routinely ranked 1-3 in the country. He goes after, all gets, a huge percentage of the top rated players. He and his coaches are VERY aware of where their recruiting targets stack up against others. Same as Georgia, Ohio State and LSU. Is it coincidence that all these top schools zero in on the same targets? I don't think so.

As far as the relevance of the "Stars", I'm in the camp that they are very relevant at the P5 level. I believe them to be of lessor importance below the 3 star level though which is our bread and butter.
I found this article to be very enlightening regarding the predictive powers of star ratings. It also shows the odds of a team winning based on their recruiting success:

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2014/2...ings-right
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2020 02:53 PM by olddawg.)
02-09-2020 02:52 PM
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JMU08 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-09-2020 02:52 PM)olddawg Wrote:  Saban can say that all he wants about not caring about stars, but it's not really accurate though. Bama consistently gets top recruiting classes. Calling them "ratings" rather than stars doesn't change anything. In their last recruiting class of 25, they have:
5 star players- 4 (out of 30)
4 star players-17 (out of 380)
3 star players-4

So the reality is that his recruiting classes are routinely ranked 1-3 in the country. He goes after, all gets, a huge percentage of the top rated players. He and his coaches are VERY aware of where their recruiting targets stack up against others. Same as Georgia, Ohio State and LSU. Is it coincidence that all these top schools zero in on the same targets? I don't think so.

As far as the relevance of the "Stars", I'm in the camp that they are very relevant at the P5 level. I believe them to be of lessor importance below the 3 star level though which is our bread and butter.
I found this article to be very enlightening regarding the predictive powers of star ratings. It also shows the odds of a team winning based on their recruiting success:

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2014/2...ings-right

That's a fallacy though. It's a known fact that anyone that gets an offer from Bama automatically goes up in rankings. Saban doesn't pay attention to stars, the people creating the rankings pay attention to Saban.
02-10-2020 08:18 AM
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BDKJMU Offline
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Post: #66
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-10-2020 08:18 AM)JMU08 Wrote:  
(02-09-2020 02:52 PM)olddawg Wrote:  Saban can say that all he wants about not caring about stars, but it's not really accurate though. Bama consistently gets top recruiting classes. Calling them "ratings" rather than stars doesn't change anything. In their last recruiting class of 25, they have:
5 star players- 4 (out of 30)
4 star players-17 (out of 380)
3 star players-4

So the reality is that his recruiting classes are routinely ranked 1-3 in the country. He goes after, all gets, a huge percentage of the top rated players. He and his coaches are VERY aware of where their recruiting targets stack up against others. Same as Georgia, Ohio State and LSU. Is it coincidence that all these top schools zero in on the same targets? I don't think so.

As far as the relevance of the "Stars", I'm in the camp that they are very relevant at the P5 level. I believe them to be of lessor importance below the 3 star level though which is our bread and butter.
I found this article to be very enlightening regarding the predictive powers of star ratings. It also shows the odds of a team winning based on their recruiting success:

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2014/2...ings-right

That's a fallacy though. It's a known fact that anyone that gets an offer from Bama automatically goes up in rankings. Saban doesn't pay attention to stars, the people creating the rankings pay attention to Saban.
That’s a fallacy though if the players already have 4 or 5 stars when they commit to Bama.
02-10-2020 08:43 AM
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2Buck Offline
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Post: #67
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
This is what I mean about the rating sites adjusting based on offers. If a site rates a player 2 stars and the kid gets a full offer to Alabama and Ohio St, that kid is a 4/5 star. I trust scouts and recruiters from those schools more than the rating site.

He wasn't a kid that suddenly improved dramatically overnight, the rating site didn't know what they were doing until experienced scouts made a determination.

Much harder to be accurate for players at no/2 stars since their offers can be all over the place and there's much less scrutiny/reporting from top scouts.
02-10-2020 10:42 AM
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Polish Hammer Offline
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Post: #68
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
Not always true, this particular 3-star recruit never went to 4 or 5 when offered to Bama and didn’t drop when he went elsewhere.

https://www.record-courier.com/sports/20...-rb-bangda

Also, there are many stories of kids taking their only FBS offer and then excelling. Anybody can recruit for the big boys like Bama, Clemson, Georgia etc...the work is already done with combines and camps and recruiting services ranking the top athletes. Send a letter from Bama and one from State U. and tell me which one gets read immediately and which gets thrown into a pile and maybe never opened. The real recruiting goes on so much lower down the food chain where you really have to find a kid good enough to play at a bigger program but falls through the cracks because of an inch, ten pounds or lack of visibility. And then build a great rapport with that kid to make him want to stay committed enough to fend off those late to the party. Recruiting at G5, FCS and then D2 is so much harder, and I’ll trust Cigs knows what he’s doing.
02-10-2020 11:17 AM
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DukeThaDawg Offline
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Post: #69
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-10-2020 10:42 AM)2Buck Wrote:  This is what I mean about the rating sites adjusting based on offers. If a site rates a player 2 stars and the kid gets a full offer to Alabama and Ohio St, that kid is a 4/5 star. I trust scouts and recruiters from those schools more than the rating site.

He wasn't a kid that suddenly improved dramatically overnight, the rating site didn't know what they were doing until experienced scouts made a determination.

Much harder to be accurate for players at no/2 stars since their offers can be all over the place and there's much less scrutiny/reporting from top scouts.
2Buck is 100% accurate.

I'll give you 2 quick examples of how these fraudulent recruiting sites work.
Va Tech has a 2020 commit at CB. The kid was offered in June after attending a VaTech camp and he committed on the spot. He ran a very fast 40. This kid had 1 offer from Delaware State---He had NO other offers, NO stars, and he might not even had a 247 profile. After the VaTech offer, within a few days, this kid had 3 stars to go along with a 247 profile.

Syracuse has a 2020 commit a S, from Canada and a 2020 commit at CB from SC. Both these kids received offers from Cuse after attending their camp in July. They committed on the spot. The kid from Canada had no offers before Cuse, no stars and no 247 profile. Within days he had 3 stars and a 247 profile.The kid from SC had 1 offer, and no stars. Within days he was a 3 star recruit.

These schools offered these kids after laying their eyes on them. This is how fraudulent the star system and these recruiting sites truly are. They feed off the schools NOT visa versa. But they market their system as the Holy Grail's of recruiting so they can sell memberships to their sites, so ppl like us can vent all over their message boards.

Unless a kid is some national 4 or 5 star recruit---And most of those kids got those stars by showcasing at National recruiting combines like the Nike Opening, Rivals or Under Armour. Which are invitation only camps---coaches fill their classes by laying their eyes on kids at camps.
Only the very top schools can cherry pick the top kids. Even schools like Michigan, Penn State, and VaTech, have to run satellite camps all summer in different regions to expand their regional base and to mine the country for talent. Rutgers and ODU run huge camps at their schools where they invite scores of FBS/FCS schools to view what is in effect a huge recruiting meat market. If those P5 schools are looking to lay their eyes on kids before they offer---You can be sure JMU is doing the same.
The camps are where these schools find recruits. This is where they talk to kids and usually their parents to start to develop a relationship to make sure everything is a good fit for both.
I guarantee JMU laid their eyes on all the kids they offered at a JMU camp. And from what I remember, 2 of our commits (Malignaggi and Simpson) had top performances at a Nike Opening event. With the fact that Cignetti was the lead recruiter for Saban's original staff at Bama, I'd say he deserves a degree of trust
02-10-2020 11:48 AM
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DukeQuin Offline
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Post: #70
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
ONLY ONE #1 RECRUITING RANKING IN A ROW FIRE CIG IMMEDIATELY

https://herosports.com/fcs/football-2020...kings-ajaj
02-10-2020 06:41 PM
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Hotrod829 Offline
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RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-10-2020 06:41 PM)DukeQuin Wrote:  ONLY ONE #1 RECRUITING RANKING IN A ROW FIRE CIG IMMEDIATELY

https://herosports.com/fcs/football-2020...kings-ajaj

The ranking is based on how many offers total are In the class. So we could have the top 10 OLine with the most offers and we would be number 1 still. I watched every recruits film and form my own opinion based on competition and needs. Which is easy to do today because of the media options. And who wanted to fire Cig?
02-10-2020 07:00 PM
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JMad03 Offline
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Post: #72
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-10-2020 07:00 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 06:41 PM)DukeQuin Wrote:  ONLY ONE #1 RECRUITING RANKING IN A ROW FIRE CIG IMMEDIATELY

https://herosports.com/fcs/football-2020...kings-ajaj

The ranking is based on how many offers total are In the class. So we could have the top 10 OLine with the most offers and we would be number 1 still. I watched every recruits film and form my own opinion based on competition and needs. Which is easy to do today because of the media options. And who wanted to fire Cig?

I don't think anyone was quite crazy enough to say Cig wanted to be fired. They were concerned based on arbitrary rankings.
Does this article validate Cignetti now?? NOPE. Neither did any other article that had our recruiting class ranked lower.
There's only one true judge.... results. And it will take years before we know.
For what it's worth, Cignetti likes the class and right now that's the most important thing.
02-10-2020 09:12 PM
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Anders Online
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Post: #73
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
So you’re saying the only proof we need is a natty huh 05-stirthepot
02-10-2020 09:24 PM
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Purple Offline
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Post: #74
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-10-2020 06:41 PM)DukeQuin Wrote:  ONLY ONE #1 RECRUITING RANKING IN A ROW FIRE CIG IMMEDIATELY

https://herosports.com/fcs/football-2020...kings-ajaj

Trust the Cig! They didn't include transfers in their rankings either. If they had, they would have to have invented a ranking higher than #1 just for us.

Half of the top six are from the CAA, which should translate into more respect for the conference in the next few years.
02-10-2020 10:27 PM
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Madison 91 Forever Offline
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Post: #75
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-10-2020 06:41 PM)DukeQuin Wrote:  ONLY ONE #1 RECRUITING RANKING IN A ROW FIRE CIG IMMEDIATELY

https://herosports.com/fcs/football-2020...kings-ajaj

First good laugh of the day; thanks.
02-11-2020 07:30 AM
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JMU08 Offline
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Post: #76
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-10-2020 07:00 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 06:41 PM)DukeQuin Wrote:  ONLY ONE #1 RECRUITING RANKING IN A ROW FIRE CIG IMMEDIATELY

https://herosports.com/fcs/football-2020...kings-ajaj

The ranking is based on how many offers total are In the class. So we could have the top 10 OLine with the most offers and we would be number 1 still. I watched every recruits film and form my own opinion based on competition and needs. Which is easy to do today because of the media options. And who wanted to fire Cig?

It's not just total offers, it's the level of the offer as well. P5 offer is worth more points than a G5 offer, etc. Final rankings is the total points.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2020 09:32 AM by JMU08.)
02-11-2020 09:31 AM
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JMURocks Offline
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Post: #77
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-11-2020 09:31 AM)JMU08 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 07:00 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  
(02-10-2020 06:41 PM)DukeQuin Wrote:  ONLY ONE #1 RECRUITING RANKING IN A ROW FIRE CIG IMMEDIATELY

https://herosports.com/fcs/football-2020...kings-ajaj

The ranking is based on how many offers total are In the class. So we could have the top 10 OLine with the most offers and we would be number 1 still. I watched every recruits film and form my own opinion based on competition and needs. Which is easy to do today because of the media options. And who wanted to fire Cig?

It's not just total offers, it's the level of the offer as well. P5 offer is worth more points than a G5 offer, etc. Final rankings is the total points.

Yep, which seems to throw cold water on the thought that we are not recruiting players with as many FBS offers as in the past. It looks like we are landing more players with FBS offers, not less. Can’t recall us having the top class in the past, believe Harvard did last year.
02-11-2020 09:45 AM
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BSKB 24 Offline
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Post: #78
RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
With the number one recruiting class comes high expectations!
02-11-2020 10:07 AM
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Dukes84 Offline
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RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
If Ivy League schools are includes, Princeton would have the no. 1 class. Listing also excludes transfers...they'll have a separate ranking for that in the spring.
02-11-2020 10:22 AM
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RE: I’m concerned with Cig’s recruiting...
(02-11-2020 10:22 AM)Dukes84 Wrote:  If Ivy League schools are includes, Princeton would have the no. 1 class. Listing also excludes transfers...they'll have a separate ranking for that in the spring.

I read that as well. Princeton gets a bump because they have 35 incoming freshman, which seems like a ludicrously high number.
02-11-2020 02:53 PM
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