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Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-01-2020 03:20 PM)oliveandblue Wrote:  
(02-01-2020 01:42 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  We are G5 and our AD is 100% in support of the proposal.

Quote:Ryan Bamford
@UMassADBamford
·
1h
Love this. Been saying for the last year to anyone that would listen that in addition to NIL progress we need to permit S-As to transfer once without eligibility ramifications.

In general, if young men/women are having a good academic & athletic experience they won’t transfer!

Tulane AD Troy Dannen is also backing this proposal. I don't think this is the end of the world as you know it.

Its not the end of the world. I said its dripping with unintended consequences. One of them? It will be the end of building a program the way its always been done.

From now on, for the G5 every year will be a total rebuild. The rule will probably mean lots of turnover at the mid/lower level P5's as well. Consistency will be hard to come by if you arent one of the top 10-15 P5 programs. The days of building a program by bringing in kids, red shirting them and developing players would be over. Its not a viable strategy if anyone can transfer anytime without sitting out a year. Instead---the smarter strategy will be to just rebuild every year in the portal. If Im running a program, Im using my 25 scholarships on transfers INTO my program---because they cant leave once they get here without giving up a year. If I use my scholarships on HS students---they can leave anytime they want without giving up a year. My program is more stable because Im filling it with transfers who are now more likely to stay if they develop. So, Im going to let someone else develop the HS kids. Instead, I'll work the portal for the kids that have already spent a year on someone else's dime getting bigger and stronger---and are more likely to be here for the rest of their college career. A smart coach is using as many of his 25 scholarships a year on portal kids as he can.
(This post was last modified: 02-01-2020 07:47 PM by Attackcoog.)
02-01-2020 04:52 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
The only amendment to the rule I would make is this:

If a coach leaves one school of his own accord to take a job at another school and players from his former school follow him to the new job they:

A. must sit out one season.
B. count towards the limits of that year's recruiting class
C. forfeit their free transfer

Any school who loses players in such a situation are allowed to fill those roster slots and not have them count towards that season's scholarship limitations unless the player is the type of transfer listed above.

This would offer some prevention of having coaches poach their former programs for new positions, and provide an avenue for schools having players poached in such a way to protect their roster numbers.
02-01-2020 05:59 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-01-2020 05:59 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  The only amendment to the rule I would make is this:

If a coach leaves one school of his own accord to take a job at another school and players from his former school follow him to the new job they:

A. must sit out one season.
B. count towards the limits of that year's recruiting class
C. forfeit their free transfer

Any school who loses players in such a situation are allowed to fill those roster slots and not have them count towards that season's scholarship limitations unless the player is the type of transfer listed above.

This would offer some prevention of having coaches poach their former programs for new positions, and provide an avenue for schools having players poached in such a way to protect their roster numbers.

Doesn't look like these kind of transfers are happening now in any significant numbers. I looked at the players in the transfer portal whose 2019 head coaches took a 2020 head coaching job with another FBS team. I found only one player following his 2019 head coach to a new school, and that transfer wouldn't fall under your proposed rule, because the former school fired the head coach. (It's a player transferring from Boston College to Colorado State.)
02-01-2020 06:44 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
It’s going to get ugly in basketball—kind of like the UNC game this evening—when there is some shady underground recruiting going on. I just don’t see how this is a positive thing for that sport especially. Teams have many less scholarships than football, and losing your top three scorers to an immediate transfer portal will be crushing.

Just think, this year Ol’ Roy could have cobbled together a decent team from some guys at Houston, Xavier, and Dayton.
(This post was last modified: 02-01-2020 08:29 PM by esayem.)
02-01-2020 08:27 PM
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pvk75 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
I favor improved fairness to the student-athlete, but this proposal goes too far. It is proposed under the guise of being more "fair" to players, but what it really does is ...

--- Turn the entire G5 into a farm club level of football where the P5 "calls up" and "sends down" players at will.
--- Allow the P5 to get even richer by cutting recruiting budgets, and letting the G5 do some of their work for them, without compensation.
--- Alienate even more of the "forgotten" college fans who have ties to the 65 G5 schools. Many already do not bother to attend/pay attention to the "feel-good" bowl games.

If this proposal is adopted, I would expect the next move to be an expansion in the number of FBS scholarships allowed. Generally, the P5 has the money; the G5 does not.

Any time a P5 school or conference proposes anything, you can bet there is an alterior motive. It is NOT for the benefit of college football or the student-athlete. And the fans do not matter at all.
02-01-2020 09:28 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-01-2020 06:44 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(02-01-2020 05:59 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  The only amendment to the rule I would make is this:

If a coach leaves one school of his own accord to take a job at another school and players from his former school follow him to the new job they:

A. must sit out one season.
B. count towards the limits of that year's recruiting class
C. forfeit their free transfer

Any school who loses players in such a situation are allowed to fill those roster slots and not have them count towards that season's scholarship limitations unless the player is the type of transfer listed above.

This would offer some prevention of having coaches poach their former programs for new positions, and provide an avenue for schools having players poached in such a way to protect their roster numbers.

Doesn't look like these kind of transfers are happening now in any significant numbers. I looked at the players in the transfer portal whose 2019 head coaches took a 2020 head coaching job with another FBS team. I found only one player following his 2019 head coach to a new school, and that transfer wouldn't fall under your proposed rule, because the former school fired the head coach. (It's a player transferring from Boston College to Colorado State.)

They have to sit out a year now. With the new rules there is no penalty which would make the idea of bringing in players familiar with your system more appealing.
02-01-2020 10:58 PM
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chester Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out Year
(02-01-2020 01:34 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(02-01-2020 05:46 AM)sierrajip Wrote:  Semipro coming?

It’s interesting that you say that along with some others here because, from a legal perspective, it’s the current restriction on transferring that actually makes each student look more like a “semipro” employee. It has the same effect as a non-compete clause in a contract that could be a major factor in establishing an employer/employee relationship (even if the parties try to superficially make it look like a 1099 relationship or, in the case of colleges, a scholarship).

If it was truly an amateur sport without any real financial considerations, then why would a school care about a student transferring? We all should know that it’s the fact that the schools want their cake and eat it, too (apply employee-type restrictions on player movement but still trying to call them amateurs), that these transfer restrictions exist.

The lawyer side of me actually sees this stance by the Big Ten as an additional way for the conference to continue to argue that there *isn’t* an employer/employee relationship between the school and the student. The fact that it could also help their top programs poach talent without transfer waiting periods is a significant bonus while also creating the positive perception of students being able to have more freedom and control.

Completely agree. Well said. Something else that's interesting... From Dodd's article:

Quote:The Big Ten's proposal was largely unknown in NCAA circles. It went unpublished by the NCAA as it wound its way through the legislative cycle in October 2019. On Nov. 1, the NCAA Board of Directors put a moratorium on "transfer-related" proposals for the 2019-20 legislative calendar.

Why is that? My lawyer side tells me that the Cartel's powers who be don't want proposals like this to see the light of day until the particulars of the coming NIL Age are apparent.

If the Cartel gets what it wants in the NIL Age, which, among other things, would likely include either a Federal outlawing of school and booster-related financial inducements of high school recruits and college transfers or, at least, the NCAA's legal ability to enforce rules that prohibit the same, then they would probably pass this proposed rule change in a NY minute. As you allude, that rule is detrimental to the Cartel's continual fight for direct compensation caps and against the notion that its members employ athletes. And THAT is always, always, always the Cartel's biggest concern.

But if the Cartel doesn't get the NIL "guardrails" it covets, its non-compete year-in-residency rule leaves it between a rock and a hard place... They don't want boosters to buy players directly. Better to lure top players with booster money by giving it to top coaches & recruiters and to construction firms that are hired to gold-plate facilities.

Being unwilling to give up on the the "collegiate model" altogether, they don't know what to do, and so they're pushing this proposal down the road.
02-02-2020 05:46 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
As long as a school can only commit to a player for a year and then evaluate whether they want to renew his schollie every year, the player should be able to do the same.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2020 01:48 PM by quo vadis.)
02-02-2020 05:58 AM
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chester Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out Year
(02-02-2020 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  As long as a school can only commit to a player for a year via a one year and can evaluate whether they want to renew his schollie every year, the player should be able to do the same.

Pffft. Ain't no two-way street about it. Those players would be NOWHERE if it weren't for the benevolence of their schools. ;
02-02-2020 06:29 AM
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TerryD Online
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Post: #30
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-02-2020 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  As long as a school can only commit to a player for a year via a one year and can evaluate whether they want to renew his schollie every year, the player should be able to do the same.

Agreed.
02-02-2020 08:48 AM
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Steve1981 Online
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Post: #31
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-02-2020 08:48 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  As long as a school can only commit to a player for a year via a one year and can evaluate whether they want to renew his schollie every year, the player should be able to do the same.

Agreed.

Same here and good point. Think it will pass.
02-02-2020 01:20 PM
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usffan Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-02-2020 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  As long as a school can only commit to a player for a year via a one year and can evaluate whether they want to renew his schollie every year, the player should be able to do the same.

Yup. For every example of a player who potentially gets recruited away from one school by another, I'll bet there are 5 who lose their scholarships because the school isn't required to commit to the player beyond a single year. And I say this as a fan of a school that would be more likely to lose players than poach them.

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02-02-2020 01:39 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-02-2020 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  As long as a school can only commit to a player for a year via a one year and can evaluate whether they want to renew his schollie every year, the player should be able to do the same.

Kind of a straw man argument. The school cannot pull a scholarship during the year. The player can transfer anywhere they want---they just cant play football for a the first year there. Both sides have restrictions.

Here is another unintended consequence. You'll need to change some other rules to make this this transfer structure work. If a player transfers---you get that scholarship back---but its only added to 85 available. Thats of limited help because you still are limited to just 25 scholarships a year. Instead, that needs to change so that the transferred players scholarship is also added to 25 maximum for that year. So, if a school has one player transfer, they would could give out 26 scholarships that year (assuming they are under the 85 max). If a school has 10 players transfer, they would have 35 scholarships to work with that year. If you don't do that, your going to have teams get ravaged to the point that they simply cant ever recover.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2020 01:54 PM by Attackcoog.)
02-02-2020 01:47 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-02-2020 01:47 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  As long as a school can only commit to a player for a year via a one year and can evaluate whether they want to renew his schollie every year, the player should be able to do the same.

Kind of a straw man argument. The school cannot pull a scholarship during the year. The player can transfer anywhere they want---they just cant play football for a the first year there. Both sides have restrictions.

I worded my statement so poorly I'm surprised anyone understood it, LOL, but several seemed to.

Anyway, I don't see equal restrictions. Yes, the school has to commit a scholarship for a full year, but so what? It's not like the typical school wants to pull it after 4 months or 8 months or whatever so that's basically not a restriction that rubs any school the wrong way.

But a player having to sit out a year is potentially a very big deal to them, huge in terms of their progression. It has created a situation where in the vast majority of the cases, schools can easily get rid of players they don't want, but players have a much harder time getting rid of a school they don't want. So I'm comfortable with my point, LOL, and the details you mention about 85 schollies and the like can be worked out.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2020 01:57 PM by quo vadis.)
02-02-2020 01:56 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-02-2020 01:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 01:47 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  As long as a school can only commit to a player for a year via a one year and can evaluate whether they want to renew his schollie every year, the player should be able to do the same.

Kind of a straw man argument. The school cannot pull a scholarship during the year. The player can transfer anywhere they want---they just cant play football for a the first year there. Both sides have restrictions.

I worded my statement so poorly I'm surprised anyone understood it, LOL, but several seemed to.

Anyway, I don't see equal restrictions. Yes, the school has to commit a scholarship for a full year, but so what? It's not like the typical school wants to pull it after 4 months or 8 months or whatever so that's basically not a restriction that rubs any school the wrong way.

But a player having to sit out a year is potentially a very big deal to them, huge in terms of their progression. It has created a situation where in the vast majority of the cases, schools can easily get rid of players they don't want, but players have a much harder time getting rid of a school they don't want. So I'm comfortable with my point, LOL, and the details you mention about 85 schollies and the like can be worked out.

I dont see it as being different at all. The school has to pay for a scholarship even if a player turns out to be a bust. Heck, players redshirt and transfer all the time---having never played one snap for the school. When it comes to the ability to transfer, both sides have skin in the game.

That said, even if we assume you are 100% right and Im 100% wrong---my point is really that changing the rule will have a ton of unintended consequences that need to be carefully offset. For instance, I think they need to look at adjusting the 25 scholarship cap in a way that allows it to fluctuate to reflect the number of transfers leaving a program. Otherwise, programs can end up being gutted without having a way to ever really recover that depth.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2020 03:14 PM by Attackcoog.)
02-02-2020 02:45 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-02-2020 02:45 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 01:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 01:47 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  As long as a school can only commit to a player for a year via a one year and can evaluate whether they want to renew his schollie every year, the player should be able to do the same.

Kind of a straw man argument. The school cannot pull a scholarship during the year. The player can transfer anywhere they want---they just cant play football for a the first year there. Both sides have restrictions.

I worded my statement so poorly I'm surprised anyone understood it, LOL, but several seemed to.

Anyway, I don't see equal restrictions. Yes, the school has to commit a scholarship for a full year, but so what? It's not like the typical school wants to pull it after 4 months or 8 months or whatever so that's basically not a restriction that rubs any school the wrong way.

But a player having to sit out a year is potentially a very big deal to them, huge in terms of their progression. It has created a situation where in the vast majority of the cases, schools can easily get rid of players they don't want, but players have a much harder time getting rid of a school they don't want. So I'm comfortable with my point, LOL, and the details you mention about 85 schollies and the like can be worked out.

I dont see it as being different at all. The school has to pay for a scholarship even if a player turns out to be a bust. Heck, players redshirt and transfer all the time---having never played one snap for the school. When it comes to the ability to transfer, both sides have skin in the game.

That said, even if we assume you are 100% right and Im 100% wrong---my point is really that changing the rule will have a ton of unintended consequences that need to be carefully offset. For instance, I think they need to look at adjusting the 25 scholarship cap in a way that allows it to fluctuate to reflect the number of transfers leaving a program. Otherwise, programs can end up being gutted without having a way to ever really recover that depth.

Well you are 100% wrong. It is very tilted to the schools.

And if they have already redshirted, they lose a year of eligiblity by transferring.

There definitely could be unintended consequences. But you've got players gaming the system now. Justin Fields got his year waived by claiming he was afraid to stay at Georgia because of racism (a baseball player-who lost his scholarship-yelled when UGA was way ahead-"let the N play!") despite the fact that his sister is staying at Georgia. There are similar cases of ridiculous claims to get the year waived. Some want to transfer because of sick family. And its random whether they get that waiver or not. I've seen a real case denied because a jerk coach fights it.

The schools have all the power. Yes there may be unintended consequences. But there is a basic unfairness now.

There already is free agency for 5th year QBs. They get their degree and go where they want. Wake Forest's QB is heading to Georgia. The last 3 Heisman winners have been transfers. And none of them would have won if they didn't transfer.
02-02-2020 03:21 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
There was a lot of stink about 5 years ago with injury scholarships. Alabama had more player on injury scholarships than the rest of the SEC combined. Saban told players they would keep their scholarship but only if they accepted an injury scholarship, meaning they couldn't play anymore. That's better than the coaches who yank scholarships for backups, but its still Saban cutting the players. Its one of the ways Saban has developed so much depth.
02-02-2020 03:24 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-02-2020 03:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  There was a lot of stink about 5 years ago with injury scholarships. Alabama had more player on injury scholarships than the rest of the SEC combined. Saban told players they would keep their scholarship but only if they accepted an injury scholarship, meaning they couldn't play anymore. That's better than the coaches who yank scholarships for backups, but its still Saban cutting the players. Its one of the ways Saban has developed so much depth.

Is that part of the 85 scholarship limit?
02-02-2020 06:18 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-02-2020 06:18 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 03:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  There was a lot of stink about 5 years ago with injury scholarships. Alabama had more player on injury scholarships than the rest of the SEC combined. Saban told players they would keep their scholarship but only if they accepted an injury scholarship, meaning they couldn't play anymore. That's better than the coaches who yank scholarships for backups, but its still Saban cutting the players. Its one of the ways Saban has developed so much depth.

Is that part of the 85 scholarship limit?

No, those don't count.
02-02-2020 07:53 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Big 10 Proposal Would Allow Anyone To Transfer Anywhere Without Sitting Out a Year
(02-02-2020 02:45 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  For instance, I think they need to look at adjusting the 25 scholarship cap in a way that allows it to fluctuate to reflect the number of transfers leaving a program.

Yes, like allowing scholarships outside the cap for transfers in, equal to half the number of transfers out.
(This post was last modified: 02-03-2020 03:05 AM by BruceMcF.)
02-03-2020 03:03 AM
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