(01-28-2020 12:45 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  Need robot referees.

........Now we are getting somewhere!!

and when I player gets in a robot referees face he can then be jettisoned into the rafters!!

This is a topic that could benefit from some informed background so that you would know in advance why you are going to pissed on by the current regime.

(01-28-2020 12:16 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 10:50 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 10:15 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 09:59 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 09:48 AM)TerryD Wrote:  You lost me there....

1. ND football feels like fans are getting a little too chummy with the ACC
2. asks Brey to look for a pretense to create a rift
3. ND reels in fans, maintains independence another quarter century
#TheTruthIsOutThere

Things like many ACC teams having byes before playing ND in football and a belief that basketball officiating seems tilted against ND in favor of other ACC schools leads some ND fans to resent (more?) the ACC.

I am not saying that I agree with them and not expecting anyone here to, just trying to explain the mindset.

It is no more complicated than that.

I'm sure you're correct -- I'm just offering bait which you clearly are NOT taking.

The bye week thing has a logical explanation, but perhaps one most Irish fans don't want to hear:
1. The ACC forbids teams from gaining advantage over a conference opponent by means of the bye week, but there is not such restriction on non-conference opponents.
2. Most teams prefer to take a bye week near the middle of the season
3. The biggest non-conference game near the middle of the season for most ACC teams is going to be Notre Dame.

All of that said, this goes away if/when the Irish join the ACC for football (I know, I know). You simply can't have it both ways - either your in (with all of the perks that come with membership), or you're out (in which case, all's fair in love and war).

I hear you and understand that, but causing ND fans to hate the ACC is not a good way to convince them to join in full.

To channel Green:

COUNTERPRODUCTIVE

I understand the ACC fan perspective. Just trying to accurately reflect the ND fan mindset (which is what I try to do with realignment issues as well).

Terry

The first time that ND played SU this season was up at the Dome. ND took like 22 free throws while SU took only 7. There were some really bad calls that ND benefitted from in that game and SU lost. So fans and Brey need to take notice of these types of games.

(01-28-2020 05:40 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 12:16 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 10:50 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 10:15 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 09:59 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  1. ND football feels like fans are getting a little too chummy with the ACC
2. asks Brey to look for a pretense to create a rift
3. ND reels in fans, maintains independence another quarter century
#TheTruthIsOutThere

Things like many ACC teams having byes before playing ND in football and a belief that basketball officiating seems tilted against ND in favor of other ACC schools leads some ND fans to resent (more?) the ACC.

I am not saying that I agree with them and not expecting anyone here to, just trying to explain the mindset.

It is no more complicated than that.

I'm sure you're correct -- I'm just offering bait which you clearly are NOT taking.

The bye week thing has a logical explanation, but perhaps one most Irish fans don't want to hear:
1. The ACC forbids teams from gaining advantage over a conference opponent by means of the bye week, but there is not such restriction on non-conference opponents.
2. Most teams prefer to take a bye week near the middle of the season
3. The biggest non-conference game near the middle of the season for most ACC teams is going to be Notre Dame.

All of that said, this goes away if/when the Irish join the ACC for football (I know, I know). You simply can't have it both ways - either your in (with all of the perks that come with membership), or you're out (in which case, all's fair in love and war).

I hear you and understand that, but causing ND fans to hate the ACC is not a good way to convince them to join in full.

To channel Green:

COUNTERPRODUCTIVE

I understand the ACC fan perspective. Just trying to accurately reflect the ND fan mindset (which is what I try to do with realignment issues as well).

Terry

The first time that ND played SU this season was up at the Dome. ND took like 22 free throws while SU took only 7. There were some really bad calls that ND benefitted from in that game and SU lost. So fans and Brey need to take notice of these types of games.

I understand what you are saying and agree with it.

But, Brey's comments opened up/exposed a larger or different issue.

I think that other fans may be missing that one.

It doesn't take much to get ND fans riled up against a conference.

They don't like or trust them, generally. They always look upon them with a suspicion that the conference may well conspire to screw over ND.

(Lots of ND fans were convinced for decades that the Big Ten wanted it to join just so that they could minimize or damage ND athletics from the "inside" on orders from and for the benefit of Michigan and Ohio State.)

More than a few ND fans still believe that would be the case should ND be forced to join the Big Ten.

It may be an institutional DNA thing from what Michigan did to blackball ND way back when ND wanted to join the then Western Conference and forced it to be an independent.

Every ND fan grows up on that story. It is a foundational legend.

So, when something like this happens, the reaction of ND fans is pretty predictable.

ND fans as a whole don't understand the "conference pride" thing and don't identify with being in or having loyalty to a conference.

You won't find many ND fans cheering for another ACC team to win a championship just because they are fellow members. ND fans mostly don't think like that.

An ND fan more likely cheered for Clemson vs. LSU because they don't like LSU and/or the SEC.

(Conversely, ND fans don't expect that fellow conference teams will cheer for ND to win just because they are "conference brethren". They actually expect the opposite.)

It really is an "us against them" mentality. "Them" is everyone else.

Conferences are viewed as an unfortunate necessary evil, a temporary business arrangement to be used or discarded based upon circumstances.


(For instance, ND fans by and large do not lament the passing of old Big East like other former members do. It was just a horse to ride until you have to change horses.
There was no great emotional attachment).

So, Brey's comments may have created more ND fan anti-ACC animus.

If anyone doubts my comments on ND fan beliefs/perspective, peruse some ND boards.

(Because of that, and only because of that, I wish that he had not said them. He just pulled that scab when he did).

That is not dependent on whether Brey was right about the officials or not.

(01-28-2020 09:44 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 05:40 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 12:16 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 10:50 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 10:15 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Things like many ACC teams having byes before playing ND in football and a belief that basketball officiating seems tilted against ND in favor of other ACC schools leads some ND fans to resent (more?) the ACC.

I am not saying that I agree with them and not expecting anyone here to, just trying to explain the mindset.

It is no more complicated than that.

I'm sure you're correct -- I'm just offering bait which you clearly are NOT taking.

The bye week thing has a logical explanation, but perhaps one most Irish fans don't want to hear:
1. The ACC forbids teams from gaining advantage over a conference opponent by means of the bye week, but there is not such restriction on non-conference opponents.
2. Most teams prefer to take a bye week near the middle of the season
3. The biggest non-conference game near the middle of the season for most ACC teams is going to be Notre Dame.

All of that said, this goes away if/when the Irish join the ACC for football (I know, I know). You simply can't have it both ways - either your in (with all of the perks that come with membership), or you're out (in which case, all's fair in love and war).

I hear you and understand that, but causing ND fans to hate the ACC is not a good way to convince them to join in full.

To channel Green:

COUNTERPRODUCTIVE

I understand the ACC fan perspective. Just trying to accurately reflect the ND fan mindset (which is what I try to do with realignment issues as well).

Terry

The first time that ND played SU this season was up at the Dome. ND took like 22 free throws while SU took only 7. There were some really bad calls that ND benefitted from in that game and SU lost. So fans and Brey need to take notice of these types of games.

I understand what you are saying and agree with it.

But, Brey's comments opened up/exposed a larger or different issue.

I think that other fans may be missing that one.

It doesn't take much to get ND fans riled up against a conference.

They don't like or trust them, generally. They always look upon them with a suspicion that the conference may well conspire to screw over ND.

(Lots of ND fans were convinced for decades that the Big Ten wanted it to join just so that they could minimize or damage ND athletics from the "inside" on orders from and for the benefit of Michigan and Ohio State.)

More than a few ND fans still believe that would be the case should ND be forced to join the Big Ten.

It may be an institutional DNA thing from what Michigan did to blackball ND way back when ND wanted to join the then Western Conference and forced it to be an independent.

Every ND fan grows up on that story. It is a foundational legend.

So, when something like this happens, the reaction of ND fans is pretty predictable.

ND fans as a whole don't understand the "conference pride" thing and don't identify with being in or having loyalty to a conference.

You won't find many ND fans cheering for another ACC team to win a championship just because they are fellow members. ND fans mostly don't think like that.

An ND fan more likely cheered for Clemson vs. LSU because they don't like LSU and/or the SEC.

(Conversely, ND fans don't expect that fellow conference teams will cheer for ND to win just because they are "conference brethren". They actually expect the opposite.)

It really is an "us against them" mentality. "Them" is everyone else.

Conferences are viewed as an unfortunate necessary evil, a temporary business arrangement to be used or discarded based upon circumstances.


(For instance, ND fans by and large do not lament the passing of old Big East like other former members do. It was just a horse to ride until you have to change horses.
There was no great emotional attachment).

So, Brey's comments may have created more ND fan anti-ACC animus.

If anyone doubts my comments on ND fan beliefs/perspective, peruse some ND boards.

(Because of that, and only because of that, I wish that he had not said them. He just pulled that scab when he did).

That is not dependent on whether Brey was right about the officials or not.

Terry, I understand that it's complicated.
So was Brey said "we're in the league too" was that something he meant, something he hoped for, something to fire up the Notre Dame fans, something to alienate Notre Dame fans from the league? Was he trying to shame the ACC (administration/officiating/fans/media)?

Long term, I don't think the "partial" relationship is sustainable. It was a "band aid" to a problem that requires a permanent solution because neither side can comprehend the feelings of the other or cares to.

(01-29-2020 05:59 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 09:44 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 05:40 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 12:16 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 10:50 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  I'm sure you're correct -- I'm just offering bait which you clearly are NOT taking.

The bye week thing has a logical explanation, but perhaps one most Irish fans don't want to hear:
1. The ACC forbids teams from gaining advantage over a conference opponent by means of the bye week, but there is not such restriction on non-conference opponents.
2. Most teams prefer to take a bye week near the middle of the season
3. The biggest non-conference game near the middle of the season for most ACC teams is going to be Notre Dame.

All of that said, this goes away if/when the Irish join the ACC for football (I know, I know). You simply can't have it both ways - either your in (with all of the perks that come with membership), or you're out (in which case, all's fair in love and war).

I hear you and understand that, but causing ND fans to hate the ACC is not a good way to convince them to join in full.

To channel Green:

COUNTERPRODUCTIVE

I understand the ACC fan perspective. Just trying to accurately reflect the ND fan mindset (which is what I try to do with realignment issues as well).

Terry

The first time that ND played SU this season was up at the Dome. ND took like 22 free throws while SU took only 7. There were some really bad calls that ND benefitted from in that game and SU lost. So fans and Brey need to take notice of these types of games.

I understand what you are saying and agree with it.

But, Brey's comments opened up/exposed a larger or different issue.

I think that other fans may be missing that one.

It doesn't take much to get ND fans riled up against a conference.

They don't like or trust them, generally. They always look upon them with a suspicion that the conference may well conspire to screw over ND.

(Lots of ND fans were convinced for decades that the Big Ten wanted it to join just so that they could minimize or damage ND athletics from the "inside" on orders from and for the benefit of Michigan and Ohio State.)

More than a few ND fans still believe that would be the case should ND be forced to join the Big Ten.

It may be an institutional DNA thing from what Michigan did to blackball ND way back when ND wanted to join the then Western Conference and forced it to be an independent.

Every ND fan grows up on that story. It is a foundational legend.

So, when something like this happens, the reaction of ND fans is pretty predictable.

ND fans as a whole don't understand the "conference pride" thing and don't identify with being in or having loyalty to a conference.

You won't find many ND fans cheering for another ACC team to win a championship just because they are fellow members. ND fans mostly don't think like that.

An ND fan more likely cheered for Clemson vs. LSU because they don't like LSU and/or the SEC.

(Conversely, ND fans don't expect that fellow conference teams will cheer for ND to win just because they are "conference brethren". They actually expect the opposite.)

It really is an "us against them" mentality. "Them" is everyone else.

Conferences are viewed as an unfortunate necessary evil, a temporary business arrangement to be used or discarded based upon circumstances.


(For instance, ND fans by and large do not lament the passing of old Big East like other former members do. It was just a horse to ride until you have to change horses.
There was no great emotional attachment).

So, Brey's comments may have created more ND fan anti-ACC animus.

If anyone doubts my comments on ND fan beliefs/perspective, peruse some ND boards.

(Because of that, and only because of that, I wish that he had not said them. He just pulled that scab when he did).

That is not dependent on whether Brey was right about the officials or not.

Terry, I understand that it's complicated.
So was Brey said "we're in the league too" was that something he meant, something he hoped for, something to fire up the Notre Dame fans, something to alienate Notre Dame fans from the league? Was he trying to shame the ACC (administration/officiating/fans/media)?

Long term, I don't think the "partial" relationship is sustainable. It was a "band aid" to a problem that requires a permanent solution because neither side can comprehend the feelings of the other or cares to.

He was saying that ND basketball is a full member and that he thought the ACC was holding against the basketball program the fact that the football program was not.

I'll take you one further. I don't think that a full time relationship is, either.

ND fans just don't like conferences and would not be happy as a full time ACC or Big Ten member.

They would still stand apart and not fully integrate.

I don’t blame ND fans for still wanting Independence, if FSU was in that position I would want that also. In ACC football, I don’t think there is a bias for this or that team, rather a bias against FSU that is especially evident when it comes to holding calls. Our all american and future NFL linemen can’t seem to draw holding calls against our opponents (not that they are not). There was actually a damning Tomahawk Nation article about this from several years ago backed with statistics.

ND could get better treatment, but better off staying Indy.

(01-29-2020 10:27 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I don’t blame ND fans for still wanting Independence, if FSU was in that position I would want that also. In ACC football, I don’t think there is a bias for this or that team, rather a bias against FSU that is especially evident when it comes to holding calls. Our all american and future NFL linemen can’t seem to draw holding calls against our opponents (not that they are not). There was actually a damning Tomahawk Nation article about this from several years ago backed with statistics.

ND could get better treatment, but better off staying Indy.

I think there was definitely some intentional referee favoritism in the past, but I think what we see today is more incompetence than favoritism.

(01-29-2020 11:01 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-29-2020 10:27 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I don’t blame ND fans for still wanting Independence, if FSU was in that position I would want that also. In ACC football, I don’t think there is a bias for this or that team, rather a bias against FSU that is especially evident when it comes to holding calls. Our all american and future NFL linemen can’t seem to draw holding calls against our opponents (not that they are not). There was actually a damning Tomahawk Nation article about this from several years ago backed with statistics.

ND could get better treatment, but better off staying Indy.

I think there was definitely some intentional referee favoritism in the past, but I think what we see today is more incompetence than favoritism.

I wish it was straight out incompetence, but the anti-FSU bias is still very much alive. Targeting is another area the refs like to screw FSU. They apply the rule to FSU, but when the opponent does it, it’s not called.

Notre Dame getting ripped off by the refs...

Does that technically qualify as an oxymoron?

(01-29-2020 11:44 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(01-29-2020 11:01 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-29-2020 10:27 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I don’t blame ND fans for still wanting Independence, if FSU was in that position I would want that also. In ACC football, I don’t think there is a bias for this or that team, rather a bias against FSU that is especially evident when it comes to holding calls. Our all american and future NFL linemen can’t seem to draw holding calls against our opponents (not that they are not). There was actually a damning Tomahawk Nation article about this from several years ago backed with statistics.

ND could get better treatment, but better off staying Indy.

I think there was definitely some intentional referee favoritism in the past, but I think what we see today is more incompetence than favoritism.

I wish it was straight out incompetence, but the anti-FSU bias is still very much alive. Targeting is another area the refs like to screw FSU. They apply the rule to FSU, but when the opponent does it, it’s not called.

You guys aren't alone. I've watched some incomprehensible officiating this year in the SEC and I'm not just talking Auburn games. Tennessee got hosed at home last night. There were so many blown and bad calls both ways in the Auburn / Ole Miss double overtime that either team could have claimed legitimately that they were robbed. And many of these calls are ref incompetence, but when they look at the monitor for a last touched ball which definitively shows that only one player touched it before it went out of bounds and still give the wrong ruling it defies all reason.

There is however a common set of threads behind it all. And like it or not it coms back to legalized college sports betting. It has affected football and basketball in several ways. In the SEC we had a mass retirement of long time officials when it was legalized. While they didn't say it publicly many of these men simply didn't want to be pressured by outside sources when it came to game calls. The most an SEC official makes is $3,000 a game and the least is $800 a game and there are no benefits, salary, insurance or retirement. Their hotels, meals, and transportation are covered separately but these guys mostly did the job for love of the sport and extra revenue. They didn't want their regular jobs pressured or their families for the sake of some gambling house who is concerned to control the spread.

So what we are facing now is a two pronged problem of numerous rookie officials, and the faceless arbiter in football who rules on video reviews and targeting calls, and the on court officials who with the whistle at the end of the game can skew the point spread, if not the outcome.

With football I've been strongly curious about many objectionable reviews and the lack of standardization in the determination of targeting. Not only does it aid a drive by the offense, but it can handicap a school for the game the following week. Holding and pass interference have always been the non reviewable calls that add points or take them away and I see both utilized a lot to manage the spread.

Remember there are two lines on every game. The betting line which seeks a level with the odds that will approach an equal amount bet for both sides. Technically the house wins on the losses and earns 10% on the wins so the house always wins. But there's more to it than that. The house has a line that is not disclosed and it is called the Closing Line and what it shows is the team which has the most money bet on them. That team in the NFL loses against the spread (not necessarily the game) 75% of the time and the officials are how. It's not players who in the NFL don't really care because they are all millionaires.

A long time ago in college players might get paid to fumble or throw an interception at a key point to hold down a score, but those days are pretty much gone. Now that legalized college betting is on the officials are the controlling ploy just like in the NFL.

So gambling interests and rookie officials are hurting all of the games and the coaches and players are getting more and more frustrated. When the fans lose confidence in the legitimacy of the outcomes it will severely hurt the sport.

There's a kind of confession about this with the NFL. They no longer claim to be sport but rather advertise themselves as an entertainment activity.

So unless the colleges see the merit in reversing their approval with regard to gambling I just don't see a solution.

I remember when I found out wrestling was fake. My dad always told me it was, but as a kid I always wanted to believe. I did not figure it out for myself till I was 11, it’s just taking a lot longer to figure out college athletics is rigged, but even the best rigging is no match for a team who is hot for 1 game.

(01-28-2020 09:44 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 05:40 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 12:16 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 10:50 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 10:15 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Things like many ACC teams having byes before playing ND in football and a belief that basketball officiating seems tilted against ND in favor of other ACC schools leads some ND fans to resent (more?) the ACC.

I am not saying that I agree with them and not expecting anyone here to, just trying to explain the mindset.

It is no more complicated than that.

I'm sure you're correct -- I'm just offering bait which you clearly are NOT taking.

The bye week thing has a logical explanation, but perhaps one most Irish fans don't want to hear:
1. The ACC forbids teams from gaining advantage over a conference opponent by means of the bye week, but there is not such restriction on non-conference opponents.
2. Most teams prefer to take a bye week near the middle of the season
3. The biggest non-conference game near the middle of the season for most ACC teams is going to be Notre Dame.

All of that said, this goes away if/when the Irish join the ACC for football (I know, I know). You simply can't have it both ways - either your in (with all of the perks that come with membership), or you're out (in which case, all's fair in love and war).

I hear you and understand that, but causing ND fans to hate the ACC is not a good way to convince them to join in full.

To channel Green:

COUNTERPRODUCTIVE

I understand the ACC fan perspective. Just trying to accurately reflect the ND fan mindset (which is what I try to do with realignment issues as well).

Terry

The first time that ND played SU this season was up at the Dome. ND took like 22 free throws while SU took only 7. There were some really bad calls that ND benefitted from in that game and SU lost. So fans and Brey need to take notice of these types of games.

I understand what you are saying and agree with it.

But, Brey's comments opened up/exposed a larger or different issue.

I think that other fans may be missing that one.

It doesn't take much to get ND fans riled up against a conference.

They don't like or trust them, generally. They always look upon them with a suspicion that the conference may well conspire to screw over ND.

(Lots of ND fans were convinced for decades that the Big Ten wanted it to join just so that they could minimize or damage ND athletics from the "inside" on orders from and for the benefit of Michigan and Ohio State.)

More than a few ND fans still believe that would be the case should ND be forced to join the Big Ten.

It may be an institutional DNA thing from what Michigan did to blackball ND way back when ND wanted to join the then Western Conference and forced it to be an independent.

Every ND fan grows up on that story. It is a foundational legend.

So, when something like this happens, the reaction of ND fans is pretty predictable.

ND fans as a whole don't understand the "conference pride" thing and don't identify with being in or having loyalty to a conference.

You won't find many ND fans cheering for another ACC team to win a championship just because they are fellow members. ND fans mostly don't think like that.

An ND fan more likely cheered for Clemson vs. LSU because they don't like LSU and/or the SEC.

(Conversely, ND fans don't expect that fellow conference teams will cheer for ND to win just because they are "conference brethren". They actually expect the opposite.)

It really is an "us against them" mentality. "Them" is everyone else.

Conferences are viewed as an unfortunate necessary evil, a temporary business arrangement to be used or discarded based upon circumstances.


(For instance, ND fans by and large do not lament the passing of old Big East like other former members do. It was just a horse to ride until you have to change horses.
There was no great emotional attachment).

So, Brey's comments may have created more ND fan anti-ACC animus.

If anyone doubts my comments on ND fan beliefs/perspective, peruse some ND boards.

(Because of that, and only because of that, I wish that he had not said them. He just pulled that scab when he did).

That is not dependent on whether Brey was right about the officials or not.

Don't give a @#$@# what ND fans feel. They are never joining the ACC in any scenerio.

In the tiny chance they take their partial away.....doesn't matter. ACC is already the lowest payout conference.


I actually am sympathetic to many of the things you state.....FSU gets beyond @#$@# in this conference. And if FSU could leave (it can't), the ACC WOULD die. If ND left.....be a little pain......but not much change....the ACC is already screwed financially. Basically, because you are only a partial....it just doesn't matter. Yes, ND brings value....love having them. But we are dead last WITH you. Leave....nothing changes....still dead last.

It really doesn't matter what ND fans think. That is the reality.

(01-29-2020 08:45 PM)nole Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 09:44 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 05:40 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 12:16 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 10:50 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  I'm sure you're correct -- I'm just offering bait which you clearly are NOT taking.

The bye week thing has a logical explanation, but perhaps one most Irish fans don't want to hear:
1. The ACC forbids teams from gaining advantage over a conference opponent by means of the bye week, but there is not such restriction on non-conference opponents.
2. Most teams prefer to take a bye week near the middle of the season
3. The biggest non-conference game near the middle of the season for most ACC teams is going to be Notre Dame.

All of that said, this goes away if/when the Irish join the ACC for football (I know, I know). You simply can't have it both ways - either your in (with all of the perks that come with membership), or you're out (in which case, all's fair in love and war).

I hear you and understand that, but causing ND fans to hate the ACC is not a good way to convince them to join in full.

To channel Green:

COUNTERPRODUCTIVE

I understand the ACC fan perspective. Just trying to accurately reflect the ND fan mindset (which is what I try to do with realignment issues as well).

Terry

The first time that ND played SU this season was up at the Dome. ND took like 22 free throws while SU took only 7. There were some really bad calls that ND benefitted from in that game and SU lost. So fans and Brey need to take notice of these types of games.

I understand what you are saying and agree with it.

But, Brey's comments opened up/exposed a larger or different issue.

I think that other fans may be missing that one.

It doesn't take much to get ND fans riled up against a conference.

They don't like or trust them, generally. They always look upon them with a suspicion that the conference may well conspire to screw over ND.

(Lots of ND fans were convinced for decades that the Big Ten wanted it to join just so that they could minimize or damage ND athletics from the "inside" on orders from and for the benefit of Michigan and Ohio State.)

More than a few ND fans still believe that would be the case should ND be forced to join the Big Ten.

It may be an institutional DNA thing from what Michigan did to blackball ND way back when ND wanted to join the then Western Conference and forced it to be an independent.

Every ND fan grows up on that story. It is a foundational legend.

So, when something like this happens, the reaction of ND fans is pretty predictable.

ND fans as a whole don't understand the "conference pride" thing and don't identify with being in or having loyalty to a conference.

You won't find many ND fans cheering for another ACC team to win a championship just because they are fellow members. ND fans mostly don't think like that.

An ND fan more likely cheered for Clemson vs. LSU because they don't like LSU and/or the SEC.

(Conversely, ND fans don't expect that fellow conference teams will cheer for ND to win just because they are "conference brethren". They actually expect the opposite.)

It really is an "us against them" mentality. "Them" is everyone else.

Conferences are viewed as an unfortunate necessary evil, a temporary business arrangement to be used or discarded based upon circumstances.


(For instance, ND fans by and large do not lament the passing of old Big East like other former members do. It was just a horse to ride until you have to change horses.
There was no great emotional attachment).

So, Brey's comments may have created more ND fan anti-ACC animus.

If anyone doubts my comments on ND fan beliefs/perspective, peruse some ND boards.

(Because of that, and only because of that, I wish that he had not said them. He just pulled that scab when he did).

That is not dependent on whether Brey was right about the officials or not.

Don't give a @#$@# what ND fans feel. They are never joining the ACC in any scenerio.

In the tiny chance they take their partial away.....doesn't matter. ACC is already the lowest payout conference.


I actually am sympathetic to many of the things you state.....FSU gets beyond @#$@# in this conference. And if FSU could leave (it can't), the ACC WOULD die. If ND left.....be a little pain......but not much change....the ACC is already screwed financially. Basically, because you are only a partial....it just doesn't matter. Yes, ND brings value....love having them. But we are dead last WITH you. Leave....nothing changes....still dead last.

It really doesn't matter what ND fans think. That is the reality.

I get that. No problem. Understood.

It is just like that for ND fans regarding what other ACC fan bases think about them being only a partial member.

Channeling Green again:

EVEN STEVEN

(01-30-2020 08:54 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Channeling Green again:

EVEN STEVEN

You keep channeling Green and we may have to send an exorcist!



(JK: I do believe in demons, I just don't believe exorcism actually works)

(01-30-2020 01:04 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-30-2020 08:54 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Channeling Green again:

EVEN STEVEN

You keep channeling Green and we may have to send an exorcist!



(JK: I do believe in demons, I just don't believe exorcism actually works)

Lol, fine be me. I could stand a good cleanse.

(JK: I don't believe in either demons or exorcism)

(01-30-2020 08:54 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-29-2020 08:45 PM)nole Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 09:44 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 05:40 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 12:16 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I hear you and understand that, but causing ND fans to hate the ACC is not a good way to convince them to join in full.

To channel Green:

COUNTERPRODUCTIVE

I understand the ACC fan perspective. Just trying to accurately reflect the ND fan mindset (which is what I try to do with realignment issues as well).

Terry

The first time that ND played SU this season was up at the Dome. ND took like 22 free throws while SU took only 7. There were some really bad calls that ND benefitted from in that game and SU lost. So fans and Brey need to take notice of these types of games.

I understand what you are saying and agree with it.

But, Brey's comments opened up/exposed a larger or different issue.

I think that other fans may be missing that one.

It doesn't take much to get ND fans riled up against a conference.

They don't like or trust them, generally. They always look upon them with a suspicion that the conference may well conspire to screw over ND.

(Lots of ND fans were convinced for decades that the Big Ten wanted it to join just so that they could minimize or damage ND athletics from the "inside" on orders from and for the benefit of Michigan and Ohio State.)

More than a few ND fans still believe that would be the case should ND be forced to join the Big Ten.

It may be an institutional DNA thing from what Michigan did to blackball ND way back when ND wanted to join the then Western Conference and forced it to be an independent.

Every ND fan grows up on that story. It is a foundational legend.

So, when something like this happens, the reaction of ND fans is pretty predictable.

ND fans as a whole don't understand the "conference pride" thing and don't identify with being in or having loyalty to a conference.

You won't find many ND fans cheering for another ACC team to win a championship just because they are fellow members. ND fans mostly don't think like that.

An ND fan more likely cheered for Clemson vs. LSU because they don't like LSU and/or the SEC.

(Conversely, ND fans don't expect that fellow conference teams will cheer for ND to win just because they are "conference brethren". They actually expect the opposite.)

It really is an "us against them" mentality. "Them" is everyone else.

Conferences are viewed as an unfortunate necessary evil, a temporary business arrangement to be used or discarded based upon circumstances.


(For instance, ND fans by and large do not lament the passing of old Big East like other former members do. It was just a horse to ride until you have to change horses.
There was no great emotional attachment).

So, Brey's comments may have created more ND fan anti-ACC animus.

If anyone doubts my comments on ND fan beliefs/perspective, peruse some ND boards.

(Because of that, and only because of that, I wish that he had not said them. He just pulled that scab when he did).

That is not dependent on whether Brey was right about the officials or not.

Don't give a @#$@# what ND fans feel. They are never joining the ACC in any scenerio.

In the tiny chance they take their partial away.....doesn't matter. ACC is already the lowest payout conference.


I actually am sympathetic to many of the things you state.....FSU gets beyond @#$@# in this conference. And if FSU could leave (it can't), the ACC WOULD die. If ND left.....be a little pain......but not much change....the ACC is already screwed financially. Basically, because you are only a partial....it just doesn't matter. Yes, ND brings value....love having them. But we are dead last WITH you. Leave....nothing changes....still dead last.

It really doesn't matter what ND fans think. That is the reality.

I get that. No problem. Understood.

It is just like that for ND fans regarding what other ACC fan bases think about them being only a partial member.

Channeling Green again:

EVEN STEVEN

I get it. I have 0 ill will towards ND. Honestly indifferent (likely how you are to the ACC).

Regardless, I want ND to have a fair shake officiating wise like I do for FSU.

ACC actually has a few issues.

1. Officiating sucks cross the board.
2. The ACC has a long history of taking care of blue blood basketball teams and trying to even things out on the football field. Given football is 80% of the revenue, this is not only just inconsistent/unfair (at the very least just call it even).....it is financially insanely stupid.

(01-30-2020 03:14 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-30-2020 01:04 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-30-2020 08:54 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Channeling Green again:

EVEN STEVEN

You keep channeling Green and we may have to send an exorcist!



(JK: I do believe in demons, I just don't believe exorcism actually works)

Lol, fine be me. I could stand a good cleanse.

(JK: I don't believe in either demons or exorcism)

If a good cleanse is all you want, I know a lady who SWEARS by her coffee colonic.
(She didn't say if it was decaf or regular)