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Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
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ken d Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(02-03-2020 07:00 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 03:56 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-28-2020 08:59 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.


It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

Sorry, that's just the way it is in my opinion. It doesn't mean the school can't be elite. Everyone knows that a win over Gonzaga is way more impressive than a win over Northwestern (or South Carolina). Just like in football where a win over Boise St says a whole lot more than a win over Rutgers. But "mid major" status is by definition based on what conference you play in.

What dictionary is that "definition" to be found in? I think you have "definition" confused with "opinion".

For the record, over the past six seasons (the length of time over which tournament units are paid out) eight conferences have averaged more than 2 at-large entries per year. They are:

ACC 6.2
XII 5.7
B1G 5.5
SEC 4.5
EAS 4.0
PAC 3.5
A10 2.3
AAC 2.2

No other conference has averaged 1 at large entry. MWC (0.8) and the WCC (0.7) come closest. The MVC also had a few years with more than the one autobid, but only while Wichita State was still in the conference. Otherwise, no MVC team would have received an at-large bid.

I agree, that’s why I draw the line between the PAC 12 and the A10 and AAC

Each of us can choose to draw that line where we think best. In my view, the A10 and AAC are closer to the PAC than they are to the WCC and MWC. But I have no problem with calling the six you prefer "power conferences" and calling the other four "near major" (I also hate the term "mid-major").

That being said, there are individual programs within those four conferences that I would classify as "major" programs. I came up with a list of 15 such schools, using the following criteria:

1. At least 3 NCAAT appearances in the last 7 years (the period for which I had data already at hand), OR

2. 2 NCAAT wins during that period, OR

3. Greater than 10,000 average attendance.

Those schools are, by conference:

AAC Cincinnati, Wichita State, Temple, Houston and Memphis

A10 VCU, Dayton, St Louis and Rhode Island

WCC Gonzaga, St Mary's and BYU

MWC San Diego State, Nevada and New Mexico

Non-Power Conference schools with the most NCAAT appearances:

7 Gonzaga
7 Cincinnati
6 VCU
5 Wichita State
4 San Diego State
4 Dayton
3 St Mary's
3 St Louis
3 Nevada

Teams with most tournament wins:

15 Gonzaga
9 Wichita State
5 Dayton
4 San Diego State
3 Cincinnati
3 Houston

Teams with greater than 10,000 average attendance:

12,957 Dayton
11,958 BYU
11,256 Cincinnati
11,107 New Mexico
10,885 San Diego State
10,878 Nevada
10,194 Wichita State

So, all told, I count 76 Power Conference teams and 15 Near Major Conference teams as major hoops programs (91 schools in total). Combined, these programs will fill nearly all of the NCAAT at-large spots in most years.

But that's just my opinion.
(This post was last modified: 02-03-2020 01:48 PM by ken d.)
02-03-2020 01:19 PM
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Go College Sports Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
People balk at having schools be called "mid-majors" because they think it means they are "lesser" programs, but it doesn't really have to mean that. Everyone who pays attention knows that Cincinnati has a better program than Ole Miss and Gonzaga has a better program than Northwestern.

But the major vs mid-major line is conference based because the reality is that it is about resources. Aside from maybe Wichita State and a very small handful of others, there aren't any programs out there generating enough revenue to ensure they remain at a high level of performance over the long haul. VCU is a great program, but they lose their head coach every couple years. And to Oklahoma and Texas and LSU, not necessarily the cream of the crop of power conference programs. They can win in spite of that, but they aren't on equal footing.
02-03-2020 01:55 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(02-03-2020 01:19 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-03-2020 07:00 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 03:56 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-28-2020 08:59 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

Sorry, that's just the way it is in my opinion. It doesn't mean the school can't be elite. Everyone knows that a win over Gonzaga is way more impressive than a win over Northwestern (or South Carolina). Just like in football where a win over Boise St says a whole lot more than a win over Rutgers. But "mid major" status is by definition based on what conference you play in.

What dictionary is that "definition" to be found in? I think you have "definition" confused with "opinion".

For the record, over the past six seasons (the length of time over which tournament units are paid out) eight conferences have averaged more than 2 at-large entries per year. They are:

ACC 6.2
XII 5.7
B1G 5.5
SEC 4.5
EAS 4.0
PAC 3.5
A10 2.3
AAC 2.2

No other conference has averaged 1 at large entry. MWC (0.8) and the WCC (0.7) come closest. The MVC also had a few years with more than the one autobid, but only while Wichita State was still in the conference. Otherwise, no MVC team would have received an at-large bid.

I agree, that’s why I draw the line between the PAC 12 and the A10 and AAC

Each of us can choose to draw that line where we think best. In my view, the A10 and AAC are closer to the PAC than they are to the WCC and MWC. But I have no problem with calling the six you prefer "power conferences" and calling the other four "near major" (I also hate the term "mid-major").

That being said, there are individual programs within those four conferences that I would classify as "major" programs. I came up with a list of 15 such schools, using the following criteria:

1. At least 3 NCAAT appearances in the last 7 years (the period for which I had data already at hand), OR

2. 2 NCAAT wins during that period, OR

3. Greater than 10,000 average attendance.

Those schools are, by conference:

AAC Cincinnati, Wichita State, Temple, Houston and Memphis

A10 VCU, Dayton, St Louis and Rhode Island

WCC Gonzaga, St Mary's and BYU

MWC San Diego State, Nevada and New Mexico

Non-Power Conference schools with the most NCAAT appearances:

7 Gonzaga
7 Cincinnati
6 VCU
5 Wichita State
4 San Diego State
4 Dayton
3 St Mary's
3 St Louis
3 Nevada

Teams with most tournament wins:

15 Gonzaga
9 Wichita State
5 Dayton
4 San Diego State
3 Cincinnati
3 Houston

Teams with greater than 10,000 average attendance:

12,957 Dayton
11,958 BYU
11,256 Cincinnati
11,107 New Mexico
10,885 San Diego State
10,878 Nevada
10,194 Wichita State

So, all told, I count 76 Power Conference teams and 15 Near Major Conference teams as major hoops programs (91 schools in total). Combined, these programs will fill nearly all of the NCAAT at-large spots in most years.

But that's just my opinion.



An interesting assessment. I like your criteria. There are other ways to approach it but your way is legit. Well done.

My main point (which I might have failed to make clearly) is that college sports media members have a responsibility to clearly report with precise language and a knowledge of both history and current issues. They should know that, for example, Temple has been historically a major (or high-major, depending on how you define) program. It is not a "mid-major" program (like my Belmont Bruins). When the media use "small school," for example, I just shake my head. (What the hell is a "small school"?) As noted, I work in the media (I should be working now and not typing this!) and it's important that those in my profession present this topic related to college hoops in an accurate manner.

As to what terms non-media people want to use ... that's their business.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 09:40 AM by bill dazzle.)
02-03-2020 03:25 PM
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Tigersmoke4 Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(02-03-2020 11:35 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(02-03-2020 11:33 AM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 09:30 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.


It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

But to be fair if Northwestern played a WCC schedule instead of a B1G schedule the last 20 years they would have had more NCAA bids and if the Zags played a B1G schedule instead of a WCC schedule over the last 20 years they would have had fewer.

Also Northwesterns budget for BBall dwarfs everyone not in the BBall P6.

Are you just trolling again or can provide a legitimate source? I'm going to bet you're just trolling again. 01-wingedeagle

Says the guy who goes on unhinges rants about the big east when they have like one poster on these boards.

Sooo you can't provide any legitimate sources. Guess I was right. 07-coffee307-coffee307-coffee3
02-04-2020 09:02 AM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(02-04-2020 09:02 AM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  
(02-03-2020 11:35 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(02-03-2020 11:33 AM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  
(02-02-2020 09:30 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

But to be fair if Northwestern played a WCC schedule instead of a B1G schedule the last 20 years they would have had more NCAA bids and if the Zags played a B1G schedule instead of a WCC schedule over the last 20 years they would have had fewer.

Also Northwesterns budget for BBall dwarfs everyone not in the BBall P6.

Are you just trolling again or can provide a legitimate source? I'm going to bet you're just trolling again. 01-wingedeagle

Says the guy who goes on unhinges rants about the big east when they have like one poster on these boards.

Sooo you can't provide any legitimate sources. Guess I was right. 07-coffee307-coffee307-coffee3

You want me to provide a legitimate source for a hypothetical? Just use your brain. Would a team win more games with a much easier schedule and would a team lose more games with a much harder schedule?

Now go rant about one single big east poster on the boards.
02-04-2020 09:22 AM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
Northwestern got blown out by Radford and D1 call-up Merrimack. Schedules aren't their issue. The issue is Northwestern has no basketball culture or history. Playing in the WCC elevates them from the bottom to the middle but it doesn't increase NCAA bids.
02-04-2020 09:31 AM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
And let’s all be clear, Gonzaga is only NOT in a power conference because of their location. If they were in Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, Minneapolis or Boston they’d be in the Big East today. It seems the school presidents and ADs have an issue sending all the other sports to Spokane and a legit concern that after Few leaves if they drop off you have a albatross 3000 miles away from half the conference.
02-04-2020 09:32 AM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(02-04-2020 09:31 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Northwestern got blown out by Radford and D1 call-up Merrimack. Schedules aren't their issue. The issue is Northwestern has no basketball culture or history. Playing in the WCC elevates them from the bottom to the middle but it doesn't increase NCAA bids.

With their current resources they would get more ncaa bids over the last 20 years than they did in the B1G and the Zags more than likely would have gotten less. That’s the whole point of that hypothetical. What conference you play in most certainly matters with how many bids you can get over a period of time.

Another part of this hypothetical is would Few have been able to build the programs reputation while finishing in the middle of the B1G as opposed to the top of the WCC in his early years in Spokane.
02-04-2020 09:35 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(02-04-2020 09:35 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 09:31 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Northwestern got blown out by Radford and D1 call-up Merrimack. Schedules aren't their issue. The issue is Northwestern has no basketball culture or history. Playing in the WCC elevates them from the bottom to the middle but it doesn't increase NCAA bids.

With their current resources they would get more ncaa bids over the last 20 years than they did in the B1G and the Zags more than likely would have gotten less. That’s the whole point of that hypothetical. What conference you play in most certainly matters with how many bids you can get over a period of time.

Another part of this hypothetical is would Few have been able to build the programs reputation while finishing in the middle of the B1G as opposed to the top of the WCC in his early years in Spokane.


This is a legitimate question, RGuy:

Another part of this hypothetical is would Few have been able to build the programs reputation while finishing in the middle of the B1G as opposed to the top of the WCC in his early years in Spokane.
02-04-2020 09:42 AM
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Go College Sports Offline
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Post: #110
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(02-04-2020 09:35 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 09:31 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Northwestern got blown out by Radford and D1 call-up Merrimack. Schedules aren't their issue. The issue is Northwestern has no basketball culture or history. Playing in the WCC elevates them from the bottom to the middle but it doesn't increase NCAA bids.

With their current resources they would get more ncaa bids over the last 20 years than they did in the B1G and the Zags more than likely would have gotten less. That’s the whole point of that hypothetical. What conference you play in most certainly matters with how many bids you can get over a period of time.

Another part of this hypothetical is would Few have been able to build the programs reputation while finishing in the middle of the B1G as opposed to the top of the WCC in his early years in Spokane.

There's no reason to believe this. Northwestern would never have been the best team in a Gonzaga-less WCC over that span, including the year they actually made the tournament. Since BYU joined nine years ago, Northwestern would never have even been the second best team. Many years they'd be several spots lower.

Meanwhile Gonzaga has had an at-large quality team every single season under Mark Few.
02-04-2020 10:36 AM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(02-04-2020 10:36 AM)Go College Sports Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 09:35 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 09:31 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Northwestern got blown out by Radford and D1 call-up Merrimack. Schedules aren't their issue. The issue is Northwestern has no basketball culture or history. Playing in the WCC elevates them from the bottom to the middle but it doesn't increase NCAA bids.

With their current resources they would get more ncaa bids over the last 20 years than they did in the B1G and the Zags more than likely would have gotten less. That’s the whole point of that hypothetical. What conference you play in most certainly matters with how many bids you can get over a period of time.

Another part of this hypothetical is would Few have been able to build the programs reputation while finishing in the middle of the B1G as opposed to the top of the WCC in his early years in Spokane.

There's no reason to believe this. Northwestern would never have been the best team in a Gonzaga-less WCC over that span, including the year they actually made the tournament. Since BYU joined nine years ago, Northwestern would never have even been the second best team. Many years they'd be several spots lower.

Meanwhile Gonzaga has had an at-large quality team every single season under Mark Few.

Playing a WCC schedule. They do not make the NCAA's every single year in the B1G over that 20 year span. Go look back at some of those early years OOC results, some good wins but not nearly as dominant as they have been recently. Also they have tough OOC's because they have a cupcake conference schedule while power conference schools even the bad ones have some tough OOC match ups to go along with a tough conference schedule. It's easier to get up for a few OOC games than it is to deal with the meat grinder of a power conference regular season schedule. Look at the average conference schedule of any team in the B1G, ACC, XII or Big East and you'll see most weeks two tough games and multiple times a year both of those tough games being on the road in that same week.

To go back to what I said earlier about how the Zags would be in the Big East if they were any closer to the east than they currently are. If they were in the Big East today there is a good chance they probably aren't sitting at #2 in the country right now.
02-04-2020 07:15 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #112
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
Gonzaga vs P5/BE:
20: 4-1
19: 8-3
18: 5-3
17: 9-1
16: 6-4
15: 6-2
14: 4-2
13: 7-1
02-04-2020 07:26 PM
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Post: #113
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(02-04-2020 07:26 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Gonzaga vs P5/BE:
20: 4-1
19: 8-3
18: 5-3
17: 9-1
16: 6-4
15: 6-2
14: 4-2
13: 7-1

And how many P5/BE games a year do B1G teams play? 20+.

Once again i'm not saying they aren't a good team or program but that they wouldn't be as successful over that span playing in a top tier conference.

B1G teams NCAA appearances between the '99/'00 season and the '18/'19 season

Wisconsin-18
Ohio State-14
Indiana-10
Purdue-12
Michigan-9
Michigan State-20
Illinois-10
Iowa-7
Minnesota-6
Northwestern-1
Nebraska-1
Maryland-11 (4 in the B1G)
Penn State-2
Rutgers-0

To add a few other top power conference programs in the country.

Kentucky-17
Duke-20
Kansas-20
North Carolina-16
Villanova-14
UConn-11
Louisville-14

To go every year in a power conference you have to pretty much be the bluest of blue bloods.
02-04-2020 08:10 PM
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Aztec Since 88 Offline
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Post: #114
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
IMO Gonzaga would thrive in a P5 or the Big East conference. You are forgetting they would be getting P5/Big East money and exposure. Mark Few is an outstanding coach and would have it rolling. Their overall record may not be the same, but there would be more opportunity for quality wins to offset a couple of extra losses. They could be every good as a Villanova has been the last decade with those resources.
02-04-2020 08:58 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #115
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(02-04-2020 08:10 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 07:26 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Gonzaga vs P5/BE:
20: 4-1
19: 8-3
18: 5-3
17: 9-1
16: 6-4
15: 6-2
14: 4-2
13: 7-1

And how many P5/BE games a year do B1G teams play? 20+.

Once again i'm not saying they aren't a good team or program but that they wouldn't be as successful over that span playing in a top tier conference.

B1G teams NCAA appearances between the '99/'00 season and the '18/'19 season

Wisconsin-18
Ohio State-14
Indiana-10
Purdue-12
Michigan-9
Michigan State-20
Illinois-10
Iowa-7
Minnesota-6
Northwestern-1
Nebraska-1
Maryland-11 (4 in the B1G)
Penn State-2
Rutgers-0

To add a few other top power conference programs in the country.

Kentucky-17
Duke-20
Kansas-20
North Carolina-16
Villanova-14
UConn-11
Louisville-14

To go every year in a power conference you have to pretty much be the bluest of blue bloods.


You've made some good point, RGuy. But, again, if we hypothetically "put" Gonzaga into the Big Ten (or the Pac12, ACC, Big 12, or SEC), the program would generate far more revenue so that it could build a new arena. It would get more five stars. In theory, it could be very similar (in some respects) to the programs you list. If a private Catholic university like Villanova can be a national power year in and year out in a strong league, why could Gonzaga not? Hypothetically place Gongaza in the Big East (the only power league that makes sense in this hypothetical) and it very well might be a top three BE program each year.

Some programs (not a lot but some) have a very good chance to be strong annually regardless of what league they are slotted into. Louisville went from C-USA to the Big East to the ACC and remained strong. Marquette went from C-USA to the previous Big East to the current Big East (a step down from the previous BE but still a power league) and remained strong. Wichita moved from the Missouri Valley to the ACC and remained strong. Creighton went from the MVC to the current Big East and remained strong. Butler moved from the Horizon to the Big East and remained strong.

Some programs are simply strong — regardless. I see Gonzaga as one of those. Maybe I would be proved wrong if we simply "injected" GU into the Big Ten. Hard to say.

Bottom line: The 15 best programs year in and year out in non-power leagues are likely better (and maybe vastly so) than the worst 15 programs year in and year out in the P6. In essence, those best 15 from non-P leagues are "more power" than those worst P5 — regardless of competition. The fans of programs like Gonzaga, Dayton and VCU care — and attend. Those schools pay their coaches strong salaries. There is history and tradition.

That's my simple argument.

You don't really see that in football — in which the divide between P5 and G5 is dramatic.

Basketball is a different animal.
02-04-2020 09:05 PM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #116
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(02-04-2020 09:05 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 08:10 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 07:26 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Gonzaga vs P5/BE:
20: 4-1
19: 8-3
18: 5-3
17: 9-1
16: 6-4
15: 6-2
14: 4-2
13: 7-1

And how many P5/BE games a year do B1G teams play? 20+.

Once again i'm not saying they aren't a good team or program but that they wouldn't be as successful over that span playing in a top tier conference.

B1G teams NCAA appearances between the '99/'00 season and the '18/'19 season

Wisconsin-18
Ohio State-14
Indiana-10
Purdue-12
Michigan-9
Michigan State-20
Illinois-10
Iowa-7
Minnesota-6
Northwestern-1
Nebraska-1
Maryland-11 (4 in the B1G)
Penn State-2
Rutgers-0

To add a few other top power conference programs in the country.

Kentucky-17
Duke-20
Kansas-20
North Carolina-16
Villanova-14
UConn-11
Louisville-14

To go every year in a power conference you have to pretty much be the bluest of blue bloods.


You've made some good point, RGuy. But, again, if we hypothetically "put" Gonzaga into the Big Ten (or the Pac12, ACC, Big 12, or SEC), the program would generate far more revenue so that it could build a new arena. It would get more five stars. In theory, it could be very similar (in some respects) to the programs you list. If a private Catholic university like Villanova can be a national power year in and year out in a strong league, why could Gonzaga not? Hypothetically place Gongaza in the Big East (the only power league that makes sense in this hypothetical) and it very well might be a top three BE program each year.

Some programs (not a lot but some) have a very good chance to be strong annually regardless of what league they are slotted into. Louisville went from C-USA to the Big East to the ACC and remained strong. Marquette went from C-USA to the previous Big East to the current Big East (a step down from the previous BE but still a power league) and remained strong. Wichita moved from the Missouri Valley to the ACC and remained strong. Creighton went from the MVC to the current Big East and remained strong. Butler moved from the Horizon to the Big East and remained strong.

Some programs are simply strong — regardless. I see Gonzaga as one of those. Maybe I would be proved wrong if we simply "injected" GU into the Big Ten. Hard to say.

Bottom line: The 15 best programs year in and year out in non-power leagues are likely better (and maybe vastly so) than the worst 15 programs year in and year out in the P6. In essence, those best 15 from non-P leagues are "more power" than those worst P5 — regardless of competition. The fans of programs like Gonzaga, Dayton and VCU care — and attend. Those schools pay their coaches strong salaries. There is history and tradition.

That's my simple argument.

You don't really see that in football — in which the divide between P5 and G5 is dramatic.

Basketball is a different animal.

Yes, the Zags have been consistently good while Few has been there those other schools you mentioned have been good crossing over between leagues but also between coaches. Marquette, Louisville and Butler have all switched coaches and remained NCAA tournament caliber and have in the former 2 have had success across many eras.

I think the Zags will remain good while Few is there but I have serious doubts about how the program keeps that level up playing pretty much in the middle of nowhere eastern washington. The history of the NCAA is littered with programs just like the Zags. Programs like USF, UNLV and Houston usually only stay as long as their one coach does.
02-04-2020 09:36 PM
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Post: #117
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
What is a power conference? A power conference traditionally is one where typically about 50% of the teams make the NCAA tournament.

Now the PAC isn't doing this but gets a pass as a P5 conference.

A major conference is traditionally is one which includes teams that regularly appear in the NCAAs and has a major TV deal. The AAC definitely is a major basketball conference.

MWC has to be thought of as a major with that TV deal. A10 with the consistent multibid presence. The WCC with Gonzaga, BYU and St. Mary's. It's only 3 teams but its only a 10 team conference.

It doesn't matter if Tulane, Loyola, LaSalle ect are in those conferences. The B1G as noted has Northwestern as a member.
02-04-2020 10:34 PM
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