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Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
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Post: #41
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 08:14 AM)EvanJ Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 09:38 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  There's several conferences that I think are below "mid-major."

The "minor conferences" are the MEAC, Southwestern, Big South, A-Sun, America East, Big West, Northeast, WAC.... I don't think any team in those conferences has ever gotten an at-large bid to the NCAA tournament (or probably even the NIT). They're a definite step below the Horizon, Missouri Valley, Sun Belt, WCC, Colonial, etc.
The Southland is 29th of 32 in the Conference NET (the rankings in the rest of this post use the Conference NET). Any list of the bottom conferences has to include the Southland. Things change to the point where it's hard to say if some conferences should be "mid-major" or a term below that like "minor" or "low-major." The WAC is 24th, but was 16th last season. The MAAC is 23rd, but it was in the top half in 2009-2010, 2010-2011, 2012-2013, 2013-2014, and 2016-2017. In 2011-2012, the MAAC was 17th and Iona got an at-large bid. The SoCon is 13th, which is its fourth consecutive season in the top half, but in 2013-2014 it was 30th only above the MEAC and SWAC. The AAC, A10, MWC, and WCC are always going to be in the top half. The MAC and MVC are almost always going to be in the top half. The CAA was consistently in the top half, but has gotten worse.

WCC is one Gonzaga coach from being in the bottom half.
01-23-2020 12:01 PM
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RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 06:01 PM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  Even though some of you like billdazzle and a few others have some emotional need to cut out the AAC as if it helps the NBE, I have to say that any conference with Memphis, Cincy, Houston, Temple and Wichita state is not and I'll repeat IS NOT A MID-MAJOR. Mid-majors don't have #1 recruiting classes, 5* recruits multi NCAA tournament bids even in bad years. However I'll admit that the AAC got off to a rough start after UCONN'S championship run. A lot of that was the result of some bad coaching hires that have been mostly corrected. I've said for years that the AAC had a Memphis/UCONN problem because we both didn't do well for 4-5 years, yet even still the AAC has produced multi NCAA tournament teams every year. Heck the AAC even finished above the pac12 last season and that with the conference still not completely up and running. 07-coffee307-coffee3

The media is starting to call anything other than the P5 + BE mid-major.
01-23-2020 12:03 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 10:16 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I see the words "power" and "major" as not necessarily synonymous. To me power refers to conference affiliation and money while major refers to program strength. Power status is always steady while major status can fluctuate. All power schools (in my opinion: PAC, SEC, B1G, ACC, XII, BE) are major but not all major schools are power schools.

For example:
Northwestern is a power school and a major program even though they have only been to 1 NCAA tournament.
Dayton is a non-power school but a major program due to generally consistent success in the last decade.
San Francisco is a non-power school and a mid-major program even though they have won 2 national titles because they lack recent and semi-recent success.


Very well put but I would add a slight qualifier (and we'll use Dayton as the example): Dayton is not a member of a "power league" but it is a "major" to "high-major" program. It is every bit on the level as many (and maybe most) of the members of the P5 and BE in terms of fan support, history, budget, strong coaches, etc.

Note: I avoid using "school" when discussing this topic. As a member of the media, I try to be precise. When I read sports journalists who use the general (and confusing) term "mid-major school" when referencing, for example, Rice's football program, I cringe. Rice University is elite. Its football program can be termed somewhere between mid-major (which some folks limit to I-AA programs) and major.
01-23-2020 12:04 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 12:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 06:01 PM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  Even though some of you like billdazzle and a few others have some emotional need to cut out the AAC as if it helps the NBE, I have to say that any conference with Memphis, Cincy, Houston, Temple and Wichita state is not and I'll repeat IS NOT A MID-MAJOR. Mid-majors don't have #1 recruiting classes, 5* recruits multi NCAA tournament bids even in bad years. However I'll admit that the AAC got off to a rough start after UCONN'S championship run. A lot of that was the result of some bad coaching hires that have been mostly corrected. I've said for years that the AAC had a Memphis/UCONN problem because we both didn't do well for 4-5 years, yet even still the AAC has produced multi NCAA tournament teams every year. Heck the AAC even finished above the pac12 last season and that with the conference still not completely up and running. 07-coffee307-coffee3

The media is starting to call anything other than the P5 + BE mid-major.

I'm not so sure about that, Bullet. But if so, the media (which can be lazy and I know because I'm a member of the media) is likely using the term for general conference assessment — and not for specific programs. The media would rarely call, for example, the Gonzaga program specifically a "mid-major." I root for Belmont and that is a true mid-major program. Gonzaga is like the L.A. Lakers compared to Belmont.

The media has a responsibility to be precise, accurate and bias-free. It often fails, thus making my job more difficult (and hurting our profession).
01-23-2020 12:09 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 12:09 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 12:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 06:01 PM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  Even though some of you like billdazzle and a few others have some emotional need to cut out the AAC as if it helps the NBE, I have to say that any conference with Memphis, Cincy, Houston, Temple and Wichita state is not and I'll repeat IS NOT A MID-MAJOR. Mid-majors don't have #1 recruiting classes, 5* recruits multi NCAA tournament bids even in bad years. However I'll admit that the AAC got off to a rough start after UCONN'S championship run. A lot of that was the result of some bad coaching hires that have been mostly corrected. I've said for years that the AAC had a Memphis/UCONN problem because we both didn't do well for 4-5 years, yet even still the AAC has produced multi NCAA tournament teams every year. Heck the AAC even finished above the pac12 last season and that with the conference still not completely up and running. 07-coffee307-coffee3

The media is starting to call anything other than the P5 + BE mid-major.

I'm not so sure about that, Bullet. But if so, the media (which can be lazy and I know because I'm a member of the media) is likely using the term for general conference assessment — and not for specific programs. The media would rarely call, for example, the Gonzaga program specifically a "mid-major." I root for Belmont and that is a true mid-major program. Gonzaga is like the L.A. Lakers compared to Belmont.

The media has a responsibility to be precise, accurate and bias-free. It often fails, thus making my job more difficult (and hurting our profession).

Gonzaga was regularly in ESPN's promoted mid-major matchups before their final 4 trips. And recently, you've started to see AAC and MWC schools get referred to as mid-major. As I said, its been a change from the initial use of the term. Its become muddled and is often used as a catchall.
01-23-2020 12:32 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
From the initial question, VCU is definitely a mid-major. BYU used to be unanimously considered a major. Now its muddled.
01-23-2020 12:33 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
Power Conferences: ACC, Big 12, Big East, Big Ten, PAC 12 and SEC.
Major Conferences: AAC, A10, MWC,WCC
Mid-Major Conferences: Conference USA, Horizon, MAC, MVC, OVC
Low-Major Conferences: America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Colonial, Ivy, MAAC, Mid-Eastern, Northeast, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit, Sun Belt, WAC

IMO, power conferences are defined by power programs. Power programs are schools that have the capability and potential to compete for and win a national championship in any given year, as well as have consistent tournament bids annually (with program(s) having potential for a deep run). With UConn's return to the Big East, the only programs that have won a national championship in the past 50 years not in a P6 basketball conference is UNLV.

The major conferences have strong tops, anchored by tournament-consistent teams at the top, but lack the national championship-winning level of teams that consistently compete for them. They can get multiple bids, but it is rare for multiple programs to have sustained deep runs in the tournament, historically speaking.

Mid-major leagues usually are a one-bid, possibly one or two more, that have a program every number of years go on a deep run (i.e. Loyola-Chicago, Murray State, etc.).

Low-majors are consistently one-bid leagues that rarely advance past the first weekend.

Make no mistake, programs like VCU, Cincinnati, Memphis, BYU etc. are major programs. You can have major programs that do not belong to a power conference. You can have weak programs belong to a power conference too (i.e. Northwestern).

At the end of the day, labeling is a fun/interesting exercise that is sure to create discussion and/or disagreement. Ultimately, however, it does not really change perceptions or the ability/potential of programs IMO.
01-23-2020 12:45 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 12:04 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 10:16 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I see the words "power" and "major" as not necessarily synonymous. To me power refers to conference affiliation and money while major refers to program strength. Power status is always steady while major status can fluctuate. All power schools (in my opinion: PAC, SEC, B1G, ACC, XII, BE) are major but not all major schools are power schools.

For example:
Northwestern is a power school and a major program even though they have only been to 1 NCAA tournament.
Dayton is a non-power school but a major program due to generally consistent success in the last decade.
San Francisco is a non-power school and a mid-major program even though they have won 2 national titles because they lack recent and semi-recent success.


Very well put but I would add a slight qualifier (and we'll use Dayton as the example): Dayton is not a member of a "power league" but it is a "major" to "high-major" program. It is every bit on the level as many (and maybe most) of the members of the P5 and BE in terms of fan support, history, budget, strong coaches, etc.

Note: I avoid using "school" when discussing this topic. As a member of the media, I try to be precise. When I read sports journalists who use the general (and confusing) term "mid-major school" when referencing, for example, Rice's football program, I cringe. Rice University is elite. Its football program can be termed somewhere between mid-major (which some folks limit to I-AA programs) and major.

I think that's better and more accurate and more what I wanted to get across
01-23-2020 01:21 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 12:45 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Power Conferences: ACC, Big 12, Big East, Big Ten, PAC 12 and SEC.
Major Conferences: AAC, A10, MWC,WCC
Mid-Major Conferences: Conference USA, Horizon, MAC, MVC, OVC
Low-Major Conferences: America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Colonial, Ivy, MAAC, Mid-Eastern, Northeast, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit, Sun Belt, WAC

IMO, power conferences are defined by power programs. Power programs are schools that have the capability and potential to compete for and win a national championship in any given year, as well as have consistent tournament bids annually (with program(s) having potential for a deep run). With UConn's return to the Big East, the only programs that have won a national championship in the past 50 years not in a P6 basketball conference is UNLV.

The major conferences have strong tops, anchored by tournament-consistent teams at the top, but lack the national championship-winning level of teams that consistently compete for them. They can get multiple bids, but it is rare for multiple programs to have sustained deep runs in the tournament, historically speaking.

Mid-major leagues usually are a one-bid, possibly one or two more, that have a program every number of years go on a deep run (i.e. Loyola-Chicago, Murray State, etc.).

Low-majors are consistently one-bid leagues that rarely advance past the first weekend.

Make no mistake, programs like VCU, Cincinnati, Memphis, BYU etc. are major programs. You can have major programs that do not belong to a power conference. You can have weak programs belong to a power conference too (i.e. Northwestern).

At the end of the day, labeling is a fun/interesting exercise that is sure to create discussion and/or disagreement. Ultimately, however, it does not really change perceptions or the ability/potential of programs IMO.


I agree with all this. One of the key definitions (as I see it) for defining a "power basketball league" is one in which every member is a "high-major" program in terms of resources, historic results or both. The P5 and the BE are the only six leagues that offer that.

I might drop the OVC to the "low-major" category (though I consider both Murray and Belmont as solidly "mid-major" programs). Then, again, I can see the reason for leaving the OVC in the mid-major category. Regardless, your grouping of the leagues is spot-on overall.
01-23-2020 01:36 PM
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RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 01:21 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 12:04 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 10:16 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I see the words "power" and "major" as not necessarily synonymous. To me power refers to conference affiliation and money while major refers to program strength. Power status is always steady while major status can fluctuate. All power schools (in my opinion: PAC, SEC, B1G, ACC, XII, BE) are major but not all major schools are power schools.

For example:
Northwestern is a power school and a major program even though they have only been to 1 NCAA tournament.
Dayton is a non-power school but a major program due to generally consistent success in the last decade.
San Francisco is a non-power school and a mid-major program even though they have won 2 national titles because they lack recent and semi-recent success.


Very well put but I would add a slight qualifier (and we'll use Dayton as the example): Dayton is not a member of a "power league" but it is a "major" to "high-major" program. It is every bit on the level as many (and maybe most) of the members of the P5 and BE in terms of fan support, history, budget, strong coaches, etc.

Note: I avoid using "school" when discussing this topic. As a member of the media, I try to be precise. When I read sports journalists who use the general (and confusing) term "mid-major school" when referencing, for example, Rice's football program, I cringe. Rice University is elite. Its football program can be termed somewhere between mid-major (which some folks limit to I-AA programs) and major.

I think that's better and more accurate and more what I wanted to get across

Thanks, BePcr07. My OCD spurred me to post that.
01-23-2020 01:38 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
No way does Horizon or OVC belong with those other leagues. Horizon hasn't won an NCAA Tournament game since Butler. OVC is usually 2/3 250+ RPI teams with Murray St and Belmont up top. It is a bottom-5 league that has 2 top mid-major programs lifting it up.
01-23-2020 02:21 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 02:21 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  No way does Horizon or OVC belong with those other leagues. Horizon hasn't won an NCAA Tournament game since Butler. OVC is usually 2/3 250+ RPI teams with Murray St and Belmont up top. It is a bottom-5 league that has 2 top mid-major programs lifting it up.

Agreed - 70% of Horizon teams are in the bottom third of net. 80% in bottom half.
For the OVC, 2/3 are in bottom third, 75% in bottom half

These conferences have 66.7% or more in the bottom half of Net:
Big West
Summit
Ohio Valley
America East
WAC
Horizon
Big South
Atlantic Sun
Patriot
Southland
100% in bottom half
MAAC
MEAC
Northeast
SWAC
01-23-2020 06:08 PM
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RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
None of the P6 has a team in the bottom half
AAC has one, MWC and MVC have 2

Rest have 3 or more
01-23-2020 06:10 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 06:10 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  None of the P6 has a team in the bottom half
AAC has one, MWC and MVC have 2

Rest have 3 or more

Those are some "telling" numbers. thx for posting.
01-23-2020 07:41 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 06:08 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 02:21 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  No way does Horizon or OVC belong with those other leagues. Horizon hasn't won an NCAA Tournament game since Butler. OVC is usually 2/3 250+ RPI teams with Murray St and Belmont up top. It is a bottom-5 league that has 2 top mid-major programs lifting it up.

Agreed - 70% of Horizon teams are in the bottom third of net. 80% in bottom half.
For the OVC, 2/3 are in bottom third, 75% in bottom half

These conferences have 66.7% or more in the bottom half of Net:
Big West
Summit
Ohio Valley
America East
WAC
Horizon
Big South
Atlantic Sun
Patriot
Southland
100% in bottom half
MAAC
MEAC
Northeast
SWAC

Good post.

I've never figured out why the America East doesn't do better. Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, 3 of the 4 SUNY schools + UMBC, Hartford and UMass Lowell.

This board seems quite fond of the WCC, but typically its Gonzaga, BYU, St. Mary's and a bunch of garbage.

It also underrates the MVC which is comparable or better than the A10 but with a lot better fan support and facilities. They used to get regular 2nd bids. But the committee has started adding bottom half teams from the power conferences lately.
01-23-2020 08:01 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
The amount of time some people spend trying to define who is a “mid-major” in college basketball is wild.
01-23-2020 08:21 PM
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RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 08:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 06:08 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 02:21 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  No way does Horizon or OVC belong with those other leagues. Horizon hasn't won an NCAA Tournament game since Butler. OVC is usually 2/3 250+ RPI teams with Murray St and Belmont up top. It is a bottom-5 league that has 2 top mid-major programs lifting it up.

Agreed - 70% of Horizon teams are in the bottom third of net. 80% in bottom half.
For the OVC, 2/3 are in bottom third, 75% in bottom half

These conferences have 66.7% or more in the bottom half of Net:
Big West
Summit
Ohio Valley
America East
WAC
Horizon
Big South
Atlantic Sun
Patriot
Southland
100% in bottom half
MAAC
MEAC
Northeast
SWAC

Good post.

I've never figured out why the America East doesn't do better. Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, 3 of the 4 SUNY schools + UMBC, Hartford and UMass Lowell.

This board seems quite fond of the WCC, but typically its Gonzaga, BYU, St. Mary's and a bunch of garbage.

It also underrates the MVC which is comparable or better than the A10 but with a lot better fan support and facilities. They used to get regular 2nd bids. But the committee has started adding bottom half teams from the power conferences lately.


As to the board being rather fond of the WCC ... you might have a very good point. Seven members are affiliated with the Catholic Church, which I find appealing (without getting into the religious element any more than that).

I would not use the term "garbage" to collectively describe the seven programs other than the three you note. But, admittedly, I'm a bit biased.
01-23-2020 09:11 PM
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Post: #58
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 08:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 06:08 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-23-2020 02:21 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  No way does Horizon or OVC belong with those other leagues. Horizon hasn't won an NCAA Tournament game since Butler. OVC is usually 2/3 250+ RPI teams with Murray St and Belmont up top. It is a bottom-5 league that has 2 top mid-major programs lifting it up.

Agreed - 70% of Horizon teams are in the bottom third of net. 80% in bottom half.
For the OVC, 2/3 are in bottom third, 75% in bottom half

These conferences have 66.7% or more in the bottom half of Net:
Big West
Summit
Ohio Valley
America East
WAC
Horizon
Big South
Atlantic Sun
Patriot
Southland
100% in bottom half
MAAC
MEAC
Northeast
SWAC

Good post.

I've never figured out why the America East doesn't do better. Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, 3 of the 4 SUNY schools + UMBC, Hartford and UMass Lowell.

This board seems quite fond of the WCC, but typically its Gonzaga, BYU, St. Mary's and a bunch of garbage.

It also underrates the MVC which is comparable or better than the A10 but with a lot better fan support and facilities. They used to get regular 2nd bids. But the committee has started adding bottom half teams from the power conferences lately.

One feather in the MVC’s cap is the iconic conference tournament whose final is on CBS every year (and rates highly — was 6th two years ago). They advertise the hell out of that tournament on the NBC Chicago RSN. I’ve seen like 500 Arch Madness commercials about the Final 4’s, Sweet 16’s, NPOY’s, legendary games, etc.
01-23-2020 09:21 PM
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Post: #59
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 08:21 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  The amount of time some people spend trying to define who is a “mid-major” in college basketball is wild.

It's a weekly exercise that NBE fans seem to have an emotional need for in order to feel included in a football driven genre of sports that is the NCAA. Throw in a few cheap shots and hate posts about the "lowly "AAC and,,,,,,,Voila!!! All is right in the world LOLOL. 07-coffee307-coffee3
01-28-2020 04:27 AM
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Post: #60
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 08:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  This board seems quite fond of the WCC, but typically its Gonzaga, BYU, St. Mary's and a bunch of garbage.

It also underrates the MVC which is comparable or better than the A10 but with a lot better fan support and facilities. They used to get regular 2nd bids. But the committee has started adding bottom half teams from the power conferences lately.

You answered the question ... three strong teams, that bring good OOC records into conference play, and the rest of the conference that they beat up on, is a better formula for being a multiple-bid conference than having the same talent spread around eight different teams.

And judging everything by the bids make for an easy index to look up and throw into an argument which doesn't require actually sitting down and watching lots of games.
01-28-2020 06:11 AM
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