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Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
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SactoHornetAlum Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
IMO, if you play FCS football or don't have football at all, you are a Mid-Major. It's all about the funding and expenses of an athletic department. Even a Gonzaga, Villanova et al., are way below G5 level athletic departments. Doesn't matter how much they spend on men's hoops...they are still a lower athletic program. YMMV.

D-I is all about football. Though i wish they would classify the divisions by enrollment like its done for high schools all across the country.
01-21-2020 10:35 AM
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mturn017 Online
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Post: #22
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 10:35 AM)SactoHornetAlum Wrote:  IMO, if you play FCS football or don't have football at all, you are a Mid-Major. It's all about the funding and expenses of an athletic department. Even a Gonzaga, Villanova et al., are way below G5 level athletic departments. Doesn't matter how much they spend on men's hoops...they are still a lower athletic program. YMMV.

D-I is all about football. Though i wish they would classify the divisions by enrollment like its done for high schools all across the country.

No. Villanova's basketball budget is about the size of ULM's entire budget. I know I picked the extreme cases but still with an FCS program their total budget would be among the highest G5 not in the AAC or MWC
01-21-2020 11:16 AM
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Post: #23
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 10:35 AM)SactoHornetAlum Wrote:  IMO, if you play FCS football or don't have football at all, you are a Mid-Major. It's all about the funding and expenses of an athletic department. Even a Gonzaga, Villanova et al., are way below G5 level athletic departments. Doesn't matter how much they spend on men's hoops...they are still a lower athletic program. YMMV.

D-I is all about football. Though i wish they would classify the divisions by enrollment like its done for high schools all across the country.

NCAA Basketball is just as important as NCAA football.

The average NCAA tournament game got a 6.7 TV rating. That's higher than all but 5 of the bowl games and nearly every regular season football game.

The 2019 championship basketball game got 19.6 million viewers, more than every CFB game this season except the championship game (25.6) and the Fiesta Bowl (Clemson vs Ohio State, 21.1).

Many individual schools have higher total attendance at basketball games than football games:
UNC: 315k basketball, 218k football
Cincinnati: 202k basketball, 183k football
Kansas: 276k basketball, 116k football
Syracuse: 417k basketball, 222k football
Indiana: 319k basketball, 286k football
Maryland: 252k basketball, 201k football
Kentucky: 390k basketball, 385k football
Creighton: 303k basketball, 0 football

links:
https://awfulannouncing.com/ncaa/ncaa-to...-four.html
https://www.adweek.com/tv-video/ncaa-cha...d-revenue/
https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/college...v-ratings/
01-21-2020 11:28 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 11:28 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 10:35 AM)SactoHornetAlum Wrote:  IMO, if you play FCS football or don't have football at all, you are a Mid-Major. It's all about the funding and expenses of an athletic department. Even a Gonzaga, Villanova et al., are way below G5 level athletic departments. Doesn't matter how much they spend on men's hoops...they are still a lower athletic program. YMMV.

D-I is all about football. Though i wish they would classify the divisions by enrollment like its done for high schools all across the country.

NCAA Basketball is just as important as NCAA football.

The average NCAA tournament game got a 6.7 TV rating. That's higher than all but 5 of the bowl games and nearly every regular season football game.

The 2019 championship basketball game got 19.6 million viewers, more than every CFB game this season except the championship game (25.6) and the Fiesta Bowl (Clemson vs Ohio State, 21.1).

Many individual schools have higher total attendance at basketball games than football games:
UNC: 315k basketball, 218k football
Cincinnati: 202k basketball, 183k football
Kansas: 276k basketball, 116k football
Syracuse: 417k basketball, 222k football
Indiana: 319k basketball, 286k football
Maryland: 252k basketball, 201k football
Kentucky: 390k basketball, 385k football
Creighton: 303k basketball, 0 football

links:
https://awfulannouncing.com/ncaa/ncaa-to...-four.html
https://www.adweek.com/tv-video/ncaa-cha...d-revenue/
https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/college...v-ratings/

I watch a lot more basketball than football, but that's not where the casual fan majority is.

The NCAA basketball *tournament* is as valuable to TV as college football's postseason. That's why the NCAA gets about $1 billion a year for March Madness. They don't send nearly enough of that money back to the participating schools, but that's another subject.

The college basketball regular season is nowhere near as valuable to TV as the football regular season. Football accounts for about 80% of each P5 conference's TV contract.

Football is more popular with casual TV fans, but beyond that, to the casual viewer, the gap in the level of play between the NFL and college football is smaller than the gap between the NBA and college basketball.
01-21-2020 11:40 AM
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Post: #25
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 09:21 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 11:16 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The there levels to me are Power, Major and Mid-Major.

Power: P5 + BE
Major: G5 + A10/WCC/MVC?
Mid-Major: Everyone else.

I don't think the label mid-major is disrespectful but I do think low-major is. It doesn't matter when a team can come out of any conference and win a NCAA tournament game.

While the performance doesn't merit much right now if you compare the SBC to the OVC or ASun as a G5 spread from the Carolinas to Texas its on a different level. Second tier compared to the third tier situation.

I actually think the definition of major is a bit more exclusive. I definitely wouldn’t consider all of the G5 to be major conferences. The AAC is at the major/power line and the MWC is solidly a major conference, but the rest of the G5 consists of largely 1-bid leagues that are midmajors. The A-10 and WCC would be considered majors. The MVC used to be a major, but it has taken a big step back - even with Loyola’s Final Four run a couple of years ago, it not a consistent threat to get multiple NCAA Tournament bids.

Sound reasoning but there are clusters of serious basketball schools in CUSA and the MAC.

CUSA has WKU, MTSU, UAB and ODU that are known to score power level recruits.

MAC has Kent, Akron, Buffalo and Ohio as the core of that basketball conference. All but just a couple of NCAA appearances in the MAC over the past 20 have gone to these 4. Conference tournament in Cleveland is a big draw.

MVC has Arch Madness and within its footprint is the #2 basketball conference.

SBC going a little more with FB and history here. If you look at their regional 5 game bowl lineup plus split access to a NYD bowl it matches what the WAC had at its early 90's height.

Major to me is the second tier after the power. Certain conferences cant get their because of the food chain. Colonial for example is 3rd tier after the A10. Horizon at this point is third tier behind the MAC and MVC.

Mid Major to me is a respectful way to say minor conference. When Vermont was good calling them a mid major was a compliment even though out of the lowly AEast. A good coach could walk into a lower tier D1 job and turn them into a respected mid major power.
01-21-2020 11:55 AM
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Kit-Cat Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 11:16 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 10:35 AM)SactoHornetAlum Wrote:  IMO, if you play FCS football or don't have football at all, you are a Mid-Major. It's all about the funding and expenses of an athletic department. Even a Gonzaga, Villanova et al., are way below G5 level athletic departments. Doesn't matter how much they spend on men's hoops...they are still a lower athletic program. YMMV.

D-I is all about football. Though i wish they would classify the divisions by enrollment like its done for high schools all across the country.

No. Villanova's basketball budget is about the size of ULM's entire budget. I know I picked the extreme cases but still with an FCS program their total budget would be among the highest G5 not in the AAC or MWC

ULM is a poster child for a school that doesnt belong in FBS due to mission and resources.

Facilities by and large are superior in the G5 over FCS. At least in the year 2020. Back in 1990 the gap was more narrow.
01-21-2020 12:02 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
Mid-major had much clearer definition in the 80s and 90s. ESPN has pushed it towards the football definitions-BCS schools are major, rest are not. But CUSA 1.0 and WAC 1.0 and 2.0 (prior to split) schools were considered majors, in addition to the BE, Big 12, Big 10, ACC, Pac 10, and SEC.

Mid-Majors were Big West, MVC, Atlantic 10, Southern, Horizon, MAC, Sun Belt and a few other schools. For example, Murray St. was a mid-major, but not necessarily the whole OVC.
01-21-2020 02:03 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 09:21 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 11:16 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The there levels to me are Power, Major and Mid-Major.

Power: P5 + BE
Major: G5 + A10/WCC/MVC?
Mid-Major: Everyone else.

I don't think the label mid-major is disrespectful but I do think low-major is. It doesn't matter when a team can come out of any conference and win a NCAA tournament game.

While the performance doesn't merit much right now if you compare the SBC to the OVC or ASun as a G5 spread from the Carolinas to Texas its on a different level. Second tier compared to the third tier situation.

I actually think the definition of major is a bit more exclusive. I definitely wouldn’t consider all of the G5 to be major conferences. The AAC is at the major/power line and the MWC is solidly a major conference, but the rest of the G5 consists of largely 1-bid leagues that are midmajors. The A-10 and WCC would be considered majors. The MVC used to be a major, but it has taken a big step back - even with Loyola’s Final Four run a couple of years ago, it not a consistent threat to get multiple NCAA Tournament bids.

Power conferences are leagues where their status is simply unquestioned and are effectively guaranteed to get multiple NCAA Tournament bids every year (regardless of whether the league is up or down in a given year). That’s really in the P5 plus the Big East in today’s world.

Major conferences are leagues that should be getting multiple NCAA Tournament bids per year, but their status isn’t ironclad and it’s going to be more highly variable (e.g. they could get 4 or 5 bids one year but then be only a 1-bid league in a particularly bad year). These are leagues that have a mix of clearly power programs (like Gonzaga and the top of the AAC), but also are weighed down by some midmajor-level institutions, too, so they don’t have quite the top-to-bottom depth of the power conferences. (Even the worst schools in the power conferences are generally still bringing something of value, whether it’s academics, a major market, or historical performance.)

Midmajors are 1-bid leagues by default. Every once in a while, there might be a major/power-level program that emerges in a midmajor league, but the only way that midmajor league gets 2 bids is an “accident” where the major-power-level program loses in the conference tournament.

The AAC is at the major/power line but the mwc is "solidly a major conference"??? Really?? I'm willing to bet that you can't pull up ANY legitimate proof of that. Wow,,,,,, just wow.07-coffee307-coffee3
01-21-2020 05:46 PM
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Tigersmoke4 Online
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Post: #29
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
Even though some of you like billdazzle and a few others have some emotional need to cut out the AAC as if it helps the NBE, I have to say that any conference with Memphis, Cincy, Houston, Temple and Wichita state is not and I'll repeat IS NOT A MID-MAJOR. Mid-majors don't have #1 recruiting classes, 5* recruits multi NCAA tournament bids even in bad years. However I'll admit that the AAC got off to a rough start after UCONN'S championship run. A lot of that was the result of some bad coaching hires that have been mostly corrected. I've said for years that the AAC had a Memphis/UCONN problem because we both didn't do well for 4-5 years, yet even still the AAC has produced multi NCAA tournament teams every year. Heck the AAC even finished above the pac12 last season and that with the conference still not completely up and running. 07-coffee307-coffee3
01-21-2020 06:01 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 09:38 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  There's several conferences that I think are below "mid-major."

The "minor conferences" are the MEAC, Southwestern, Big South, A-Sun, America East, Big West, Northeast, WAC.... I don't think any team in those conferences has ever gotten an at-large bid to the NCAA tournament (or probably even the NIT). They're a definite step below the Horizon, Missouri Valley, Sun Belt, WCC, Colonial, etc.

I hazily recall at one time this was where sportcasters would sometimes use the term "low major", meaning as near as I could tell, "well, at least they are in Division 1." So High Majors, Majors, Mid-Majors, Low Majors.

But "High Majors" was not like "Power", since it was by program, not by conference. A Big Ten school might well have been a "Major" by default, but IIRC, it still needed its own history of BBall success to be counted a High Major.
01-21-2020 06:52 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 05:46 PM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 09:21 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 11:16 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The there levels to me are Power, Major and Mid-Major.

Power: P5 + BE
Major: G5 + A10/WCC/MVC?
Mid-Major: Everyone else.

I don't think the label mid-major is disrespectful but I do think low-major is. It doesn't matter when a team can come out of any conference and win a NCAA tournament game.

While the performance doesn't merit much right now if you compare the SBC to the OVC or ASun as a G5 spread from the Carolinas to Texas its on a different level. Second tier compared to the third tier situation.

I actually think the definition of major is a bit more exclusive. I definitely wouldn’t consider all of the G5 to be major conferences. The AAC is at the major/power line and the MWC is solidly a major conference, but the rest of the G5 consists of largely 1-bid leagues that are midmajors. The A-10 and WCC would be considered majors. The MVC used to be a major, but it has taken a big step back - even with Loyola’s Final Four run a couple of years ago, it not a consistent threat to get multiple NCAA Tournament bids.

Power conferences are leagues where their status is simply unquestioned and are effectively guaranteed to get multiple NCAA Tournament bids every year (regardless of whether the league is up or down in a given year). That’s really in the P5 plus the Big East in today’s world.

Major conferences are leagues that should be getting multiple NCAA Tournament bids per year, but their status isn’t ironclad and it’s going to be more highly variable (e.g. they could get 4 or 5 bids one year but then be only a 1-bid league in a particularly bad year). These are leagues that have a mix of clearly power programs (like Gonzaga and the top of the AAC), but also are weighed down by some midmajor-level institutions, too, so they don’t have quite the top-to-bottom depth of the power conferences. (Even the worst schools in the power conferences are generally still bringing something of value, whether it’s academics, a major market, or historical performance.)

Midmajors are 1-bid leagues by default. Every once in a while, there might be a major/power-level program that emerges in a midmajor league, but the only way that midmajor league gets 2 bids is an “accident” where the major-power-level program loses in the conference tournament.

The AAC is at the major/power line but the mwc is "solidly a major conference"??? Really?? I'm willing to bet that you can't pull up ANY legitimate proof of that. Wow,,,,,, just wow.07-coffee307-coffee3

I’m not exactly sure of your complaint. I’m saying that the AAC is on that tipping point between a power conference and a major conference, which means that it’s clearly above the MWC. The reservation that I’d have about AAC being clearly a power conference is the bottom portion of the league (which isn’t as strong in terms of branding, history and institutions as the P5 and Big East). The top of the AAC, though, consists of power level programs.
01-21-2020 06:59 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 06:59 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 05:46 PM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 09:21 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 11:16 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The there levels to me are Power, Major and Mid-Major.

Power: P5 + BE
Major: G5 + A10/WCC/MVC?
Mid-Major: Everyone else.

I don't think the label mid-major is disrespectful but I do think low-major is. It doesn't matter when a team can come out of any conference and win a NCAA tournament game.

While the performance doesn't merit much right now if you compare the SBC to the OVC or ASun as a G5 spread from the Carolinas to Texas its on a different level. Second tier compared to the third tier situation.

I actually think the definition of major is a bit more exclusive. I definitely wouldn’t consider all of the G5 to be major conferences. The AAC is at the major/power line and the MWC is solidly a major conference, but the rest of the G5 consists of largely 1-bid leagues that are midmajors. The A-10 and WCC would be considered majors. The MVC used to be a major, but it has taken a big step back - even with Loyola’s Final Four run a couple of years ago, it not a consistent threat to get multiple NCAA Tournament bids.

Power conferences are leagues where their status is simply unquestioned and are effectively guaranteed to get multiple NCAA Tournament bids every year (regardless of whether the league is up or down in a given year). That’s really in the P5 plus the Big East in today’s world.

Major conferences are leagues that should be getting multiple NCAA Tournament bids per year, but their status isn’t ironclad and it’s going to be more highly variable (e.g. they could get 4 or 5 bids one year but then be only a 1-bid league in a particularly bad year). These are leagues that have a mix of clearly power programs (like Gonzaga and the top of the AAC), but also are weighed down by some midmajor-level institutions, too, so they don’t have quite the top-to-bottom depth of the power conferences. (Even the worst schools in the power conferences are generally still bringing something of value, whether it’s academics, a major market, or historical performance.)

Midmajors are 1-bid leagues by default. Every once in a while, there might be a major/power-level program that emerges in a midmajor league, but the only way that midmajor league gets 2 bids is an “accident” where the major-power-level program loses in the conference tournament.

The AAC is at the major/power line but the mwc is "solidly a major conference"??? Really?? I'm willing to bet that you can't pull up ANY legitimate proof of that. Wow,,,,,, just wow.07-coffee307-coffee3

I’m not exactly sure of your complaint. I’m saying that the AAC is on that tipping point between a power conference and a major conference, which means that it’s clearly above the MWC. The reservation that I’d have about AAC being clearly a power conference is the bottom portion of the league (which isn’t as strong in terms of branding, history and institutions as the P5 and Big East). The top of the AAC, though, consists of power level programs.


Frank is spot-on, Tigersmoke4, so I'm confused, too. I have made clear in previous posts that the AAC in men's basketball has seven programs (eight if you count UConn) that are major to high-major: Memphis, Cincy, Houston, Wichita, SMU, Tulsa and Temple. I'm not sure that makes the American a "power men's basketball league." But it's darn close if not. If is clearly a "major conference" and not a "mid-major" as I see it.
01-21-2020 07:09 PM
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bill dazzle Online
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Post: #33
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 06:01 PM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  Even though some of you like billdazzle and a few others have some emotional need to cut out the AAC as if it helps the NBE, I have to say that any conference with Memphis, Cincy, Houston, Temple and Wichita state is not and I'll repeat IS NOT A MID-MAJOR. Mid-majors don't have #1 recruiting classes, 5* recruits multi NCAA tournament bids even in bad years. However I'll admit that the AAC got off to a rough start after UCONN'S championship run. A lot of that was the result of some bad coaching hires that have been mostly corrected. I've said for years that the AAC had a Memphis/UCONN problem because we both didn't do well for 4-5 years, yet even still the AAC has produced multi NCAA tournament teams every year. Heck the AAC even finished above the pac12 last season and that with the conference still not completely up and running. 07-coffee307-coffee3


Agree fully. I have simply noted I've been a bit disappointed in the AAC men's basketball results (not sufficient NCAA tourney success, specifically). I consider the American a "major to high-major" league that has elements of a power league. I've been very clear on this in multiple posts. Admittedly, I follow the Big East as I'm a long-time DePaul fan, but I have cheered for Memphis and Cincy for years. I think we're basically on the same page.
01-21-2020 07:13 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 07:13 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 06:01 PM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  Even though some of you like billdazzle and a few others have some emotional need to cut out the AAC as if it helps the NBE, I have to say that any conference with Memphis, Cincy, Houston, Temple and Wichita state is not and I'll repeat IS NOT A MID-MAJOR. Mid-majors don't have #1 recruiting classes, 5* recruits multi NCAA tournament bids even in bad years. However I'll admit that the AAC got off to a rough start after UCONN'S championship run. A lot of that was the result of some bad coaching hires that have been mostly corrected. I've said for years that the AAC had a Memphis/UCONN problem because we both didn't do well for 4-5 years, yet even still the AAC has produced multi NCAA tournament teams every year. Heck the AAC even finished above the pac12 last season and that with the conference still not completely up and running. 07-coffee307-coffee3


Agree fully. I have simply noted I've been a bit disappointed in the AAC men's basketball results (not sufficient NCAA tourney success, specifically). I consider the American a "major to high-major" league that has elements of a power league. I've been very clear on this in multiple posts. Admittedly, I follow the Big East as I'm a long-time DePaul fan, but I have cheered for Memphis and Cincy for years. I think we're basically on the same page.

I'm sorry that you think I'm a little vague, so I'll put it this way. AS FAR AS BASKETBALL GOES THE AAC IS A POWER CONFERENCE. NOT ANY SNEAKY WAY OF PUTTING IT UNDER ANY OTHER POWER CONFERENCE. IN ITS 6 YEAR HISTORY IT HAS MORE NCAA CHAMPIONSHIPS THAN THE PAC12 AND FINISHED RANKED HIGHER THAN THEM LAST YEAR. Has the AAC had some down seasons? Sure yet it still recieved multiple NCAA tournament bids eventhough Memphis and UCONN were going through coaching debacles. Please excuse the AAC if for a few years football was the focal point of our efforts, now the basketball side is being quickly upgraded. The AAC should be able to be a little down for a little while just like the other p7 conferences. As long as the AAC has Memphis, Cincy, Houston, Temple and Wichita state the AAC'S power status is safe..
01-21-2020 07:42 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 07:42 PM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 07:13 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 06:01 PM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  Even though some of you like billdazzle and a few others have some emotional need to cut out the AAC as if it helps the NBE, I have to say that any conference with Memphis, Cincy, Houston, Temple and Wichita state is not and I'll repeat IS NOT A MID-MAJOR. Mid-majors don't have #1 recruiting classes, 5* recruits multi NCAA tournament bids even in bad years. However I'll admit that the AAC got off to a rough start after UCONN'S championship run. A lot of that was the result of some bad coaching hires that have been mostly corrected. I've said for years that the AAC had a Memphis/UCONN problem because we both didn't do well for 4-5 years, yet even still the AAC has produced multi NCAA tournament teams every year. Heck the AAC even finished above the pac12 last season and that with the conference still not completely up and running. 07-coffee307-coffee3


Agree fully. I have simply noted I've been a bit disappointed in the AAC men's basketball results (not sufficient NCAA tourney success, specifically). I consider the American a "major to high-major" league that has elements of a power league. I've been very clear on this in multiple posts. Admittedly, I follow the Big East as I'm a long-time DePaul fan, but I have cheered for Memphis and Cincy for years. I think we're basically on the same page.

I'm sorry that you think I'm a little vague, so I'll put it this way. AS FAR AS BASKETBALL GOES THE AAC IS A POWER CONFERENCE. NOT ANY SNEAKY WAY OF PUTTING IT UNDER ANY OTHER POWER CONFERENCE. IN ITS 6 YEAR HISTORY IT HAS MORE NCAA CHAMPIONSHIPS THAN THE PAC12 AND FINISHED RANKED HIGHER THAN THEM LAST YEAR. Has the AAC had some down seasons? Sure yet it still recieved multiple NCAA tournament bids eventhough Memphis and UCONN were going through coaching debacles. Please excuse the AAC if for a few years football was the focal point of our efforts, now the basketball side is being quickly upgraded. The AAC should be able to be a little down for a little while just like the other p7 conferences. As long as the AAC has Memphis, Cincy, Houston, Temple and Wichita state the AAC'S power status is safe..

There are some folks who agree with you and others who do not. I'm 50-50 with it, as I view the American as offering various characteristics of a power league but also with some elements that hurt that narrative: so-so attendance collectively, underachievement in the NCAA tourney, no one program that would be considered Top 10 to 15 of all time (though Cincy is close) and four programs that have enjoyed modest, at best, historic success.

I have frequently posted on this board that I want the AAC to add VCU. That is a major program that would greatly soften the blow of losing UConn. And if Tulane, USF and UCF continue to make some modest strides, that will help the league, too. ECU ... it is what it is.

To the five AAC schools you list, I would add SMU and Tulsa. Those two are included on just about every "all-time Top 100 programs" list I've seen.
01-21-2020 08:37 PM
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Kit-Cat Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 02:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  Mid-major had much clearer definition in the 80s and 90s. ESPN has pushed it towards the football definitions-BCS schools are major, rest are not. But CUSA 1.0 and WAC 1.0 and 2.0 (prior to split) schools were considered majors, in addition to the BE, Big 12, Big 10, ACC, Pac 10, and SEC.

Mid-Majors were Big West, MVC, Atlantic 10, Southern, Horizon, MAC, Sun Belt and a few other schools. For example, Murray St. was a mid-major, but not necessarily the whole OVC.

I've heard of programs like Gonzaga or VCU given a high major tag playing in a mid-major conference.

But this is the first where I've heard of a program considered mid-major playing in a low major conference.

Historically yes CUSA 1.0 and the pre-split WAC were considered to be big time basketball conferences worth following like the BCS conferences. 3 to 4 NCAA bid conferences with multiple teams in the NIT.
01-21-2020 11:16 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-21-2020 09:38 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  There's several conferences that I think are below "mid-major."

The "minor conferences" are the MEAC, Southwestern, Big South, A-Sun, America East, Big West, Northeast, WAC.... I don't think any team in those conferences has ever gotten an at-large bid to the NCAA tournament (or probably even the NIT). They're a definite step below the Horizon, Missouri Valley, Sun Belt, WCC, Colonial, etc.
The Southland is 29th of 32 in the Conference NET (the rankings in the rest of this post use the Conference NET). Any list of the bottom conferences has to include the Southland. Things change to the point where it's hard to say if some conferences should be "mid-major" or a term below that like "minor" or "low-major." The WAC is 24th, but was 16th last season. The MAAC is 23rd, but it was in the top half in 2009-2010, 2010-2011, 2012-2013, 2013-2014, and 2016-2017. In 2011-2012, the MAAC was 17th and Iona got an at-large bid. The SoCon is 13th, which is its fourth consecutive season in the top half, but in 2013-2014 it was 30th only above the MEAC and SWAC. The AAC, A10, MWC, and WCC are always going to be in the top half. The MAC and MVC are almost always going to be in the top half. The CAA was consistently in the top half, but has gotten worse.
01-23-2020 08:14 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.
01-23-2020 09:57 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.


It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2020 10:06 AM by bill dazzle.)
01-23-2020 10:01 AM
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Post: #40
RE: Are BYU and VCU "mid-majors" in college hoops
I see the words "power" and "major" as not necessarily synonymous. To me power refers to conference affiliation and money while major refers to program strength. Power status is always steady while major status can fluctuate. All power schools (in my opinion: PAC, SEC, B1G, ACC, XII, BE) are major but not all major schools are power schools.

For example:
Northwestern is a power school and a major program even though they have only been to 1 NCAA tournament.
Dayton is a non-power school but a major program due to generally consistent success in the last decade.
San Francisco is a non-power school and a mid-major program even though they have won 2 national titles because they lack recent and semi-recent success.
01-23-2020 10:16 AM
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