Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
Author Message
IWokeUpLikeThis Online
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,095
Joined: Jul 2014
Reputation: 231
I Root For: NIU, Chicago St
Location: South Side
Post: #81
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-14-2020 12:50 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 11:28 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 10:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I think for a good G5 it helps to be in G5 to finish ranked.as you can rack up 9 or more wins easier.

I doubt most of those 7 finish ranked if they played in P5 conferences. Navy probably goes 6-6 in the SEC or B1G. Most others as well.

Yeah no way Cincinnati or Memphis finishes with 10 wins if they played Pitt's schedule in the ACC: Virginia, Duke, Syracuse, Miami FL, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and BC...


well... then again maybe they would..

Well since the ACC was a borderline G5 conference this year, you are probably right. So I should have limited my claim to the 4 actual "P" conferences this year. Then again I did use the B1G and SEC as my examples.

Using Massey's matchup widget, I put in Florida's SEC schedule home and away for Navy. 5-3.
Navy's Army, Air Force, ND schedule isn't changing regardless of conference home, so Massey has 8-4 for Navy in the SEC East.

That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.
01-19-2020 12:33 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JRsec Offline
Super Moderator
*

Posts: 22,779
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 2158
I Root For: SEC
Location:
Post: #82
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 12:33 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:50 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 11:28 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 10:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I think for a good G5 it helps to be in G5 to finish ranked.as you can rack up 9 or more wins easier.

I doubt most of those 7 finish ranked if they played in P5 conferences. Navy probably goes 6-6 in the SEC or B1G. Most others as well.

Yeah no way Cincinnati or Memphis finishes with 10 wins if they played Pitt's schedule in the ACC: Virginia, Duke, Syracuse, Miami FL, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and BC...


well... then again maybe they would..

Well since the ACC was a borderline G5 conference this year, you are probably right. So I should have limited my claim to the 4 actual "P" conferences this year. Then again I did use the B1G and SEC as my examples.

Using Massey's matchup widget, I put in Florida's SEC schedule home and away for Navy. 5-3.
Navy's Army, Air Force, ND schedule isn't changing regardless of conference home, so Massey has 8-4 for Navy in the SEC East.

That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.

I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions. Navy might start the season well in any P5 conference. They sure as hell wouldn't finish it well even against the mid tier and bottom tier competition within those conferences because they would be giving away about 90 lbs a man on the lines and would be deficient in size at linebacker as well.

So go back to running your computer simulations because that's the only world in which they end the season with their health. And my evidence is the decision of the commandants to protect the investments of the taxpayers when they withdrew from playing all but a few games a year against the P5.
01-19-2020 12:49 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
sierrajip Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,128
Joined: May 2011
Reputation: 77
I Root For: UCF
Location:
Post: #83
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:33 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:50 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 11:28 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Yeah no way Cincinnati or Memphis finishes with 10 wins if they played Pitt's schedule in the ACC: Virginia, Duke, Syracuse, Miami FL, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and BC...


well... then again maybe they would..

Well since the ACC was a borderline G5 conference this year, you are probably right. So I should have limited my claim to the 4 actual "P" conferences this year. Then again I did use the B1G and SEC as my examples.

Using Massey's matchup widget, I put in Florida's SEC schedule home and away for Navy. 5-3.
Navy's Army, Air Force, ND schedule isn't changing regardless of conference home, so Massey has 8-4 for Navy in the SEC East.

That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.

I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions. Navy might start the season well in any P5 conference. They sure as hell wouldn't finish it well even against the mid tier and bottom tier competition within those conferences because they would be giving away about 90 lbs a man on the lines and would be deficient in size at linebacker as well.

So go back to running your computer simulations because that's the only world in which they end the season with their health. And my evidence is the decision of the commandants to protect the investments of the taxpayers when they withdrew from playing all but a few games a year against the P5.

Army-Michigan? The A5 does not seem to want to play the service academies either.
01-19-2020 01:14 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JRsec Offline
Super Moderator
*

Posts: 22,779
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 2158
I Root For: SEC
Location:
Post: #84
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 01:14 AM)sierrajip Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:33 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:50 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Well since the ACC was a borderline G5 conference this year, you are probably right. So I should have limited my claim to the 4 actual "P" conferences this year. Then again I did use the B1G and SEC as my examples.

Using Massey's matchup widget, I put in Florida's SEC schedule home and away for Navy. 5-3.
Navy's Army, Air Force, ND schedule isn't changing regardless of conference home, so Massey has 8-4 for Navy in the SEC East.

That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.

I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions. Navy might start the season well in any P5 conference. They sure as hell wouldn't finish it well even against the mid tier and bottom tier competition within those conferences because they would be giving away about 90 lbs a man on the lines and would be deficient in size at linebacker as well.

So go back to running your computer simulations because that's the only world in which they end the season with their health. And my evidence is the decision of the commandants to protect the investments of the taxpayers when they withdrew from playing all but a few games a year against the P5.

Army-Michigan? The A5 does not seem to want to play the service academies either.

Until very recently that was due to the use of cut blocks in triple option schemes.
01-19-2020 01:20 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
sierrajip Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,128
Joined: May 2011
Reputation: 77
I Root For: UCF
Location:
Post: #85
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 01:20 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 01:14 AM)sierrajip Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:33 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:50 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  Using Massey's matchup widget, I put in Florida's SEC schedule home and away for Navy. 5-3.
Navy's Army, Air Force, ND schedule isn't changing regardless of conference home, so Massey has 8-4 for Navy in the SEC East.

That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.

I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions. Navy might start the season well in any P5 conference. They sure as hell wouldn't finish it well even against the mid tier and bottom tier competition within those conferences because they would be giving away about 90 lbs a man on the lines and would be deficient in size at linebacker as well.

So go back to running your computer simulations because that's the only world in which they end the season with their health. And my evidence is the decision of the commandants to protect the investments of the taxpayers when they withdrew from playing all but a few games a year against the P5.

Army-Michigan? The A5 does not seem to want to play the service academies either.

Until very recently that was due to the use of cut blocks in triple option schemes.

I will update the service academy schedule against the A5.
01-19-2020 01:26 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
IWokeUpLikeThis Online
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,095
Joined: Jul 2014
Reputation: 231
I Root For: NIU, Chicago St
Location: South Side
Post: #86
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
Computer simulations aren’t the only place Navy’s winning that battle — it’s on the field against teams in P5 conferences the last 5 years (3-0):
Kansas St (5-4 XII) W 20-17
Virginia (3-5 ACC) W 49-7
Pitt (6-2 ACC) W 44-28

All 3 being bowl games where the opponent had a month+ to prepare for the triple option.
01-19-2020 01:39 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bullet Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 38,136
Joined: Apr 2012
Reputation: 1256
I Root For: Texas, UK, UGA
Location:
Post: #87
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 01:39 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Computer simulations aren’t the only place Navy’s winning that battle — it’s on the field against teams in P5 conferences the last 5 years (3-0):
Kansas St (5-4 XII) W 20-17
Virginia (3-5 ACC) W 49-7
Pitt (6-2 ACC) W 44-28

All 3 being bowl games where the opponent had a month+ to prepare for the triple option.

True, but its also one game and not a series of 8 or 9 conference games to be ready for. The type of people in the academies are the type who can prepare themselves with a month and stay focused.

Other than Memphis, I don't think any of the AAC schools would do better than Kentucky and Tennessee. I do think Memphis would finish ahead of those two. But certainly not 12-2.
01-19-2020 10:40 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
quo vadis Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 33,236
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 844
I Root For: USF/Georgetown
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #88
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:33 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:50 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 11:28 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Yeah no way Cincinnati or Memphis finishes with 10 wins if they played Pitt's schedule in the ACC: Virginia, Duke, Syracuse, Miami FL, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and BC...


well... then again maybe they would..

Well since the ACC was a borderline G5 conference this year, you are probably right. So I should have limited my claim to the 4 actual "P" conferences this year. Then again I did use the B1G and SEC as my examples.

Using Massey's matchup widget, I put in Florida's SEC schedule home and away for Navy. 5-3.
Navy's Army, Air Force, ND schedule isn't changing regardless of conference home, so Massey has 8-4 for Navy in the SEC East.

That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.

I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions.

Yes, that's the obvious point that some are trying to argue with here. Pretty amazing. They point to Navy vs P5 games here and there - a single game on the schedule or a bowl game - and ignore the likely cumulative effects of getting beaten up by bigger and stronger and more talented players week in and week out.

Essentially, they are arguing that there isn't a significant talent and physicality gap between the SEC and the AAC, which is pretty astonishing.
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2020 11:34 AM by quo vadis.)
01-19-2020 11:21 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
colohank Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,124
Joined: Jul 2014
Reputation: 100
I Root For: Cincy
Location: Colorado
Post: #89
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 11:21 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:33 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:50 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Well since the ACC was a borderline G5 conference this year, you are probably right. So I should have limited my claim to the 4 actual "P" conferences this year. Then again I did use the B1G and SEC as my examples.

Using Massey's matchup widget, I put in Florida's SEC schedule home and away for Navy. 5-3.
Navy's Army, Air Force, ND schedule isn't changing regardless of conference home, so Massey has 8-4 for Navy in the SEC East.

That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.

I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions.

Yes, that's the obvious point that some are trying to argue with here. Pretty amazing. They point to Navy vs P5 games here and there - a single game on the schedule or a bowl game - and ignore the likely cumulative effects of getting beaten up by bigger and stronger and more talented players week in and week out.

Essentially, they are arguing that there isn't a significant talent and physicality gap between the SEC and the AAC, which is pretty astonishing.

A talent gap, no doubt, if you're talking about the SEC's top two or three programs. But not so much of a gap if you're comparing the best of the AAC with Arkansas, Mississippi State, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, et al. As for size and physicality (athleticism, perhaps?), the SEC doesn't have a monopoly on that, either. The SEC and the rest of the P5 may try very hard to skim the cream, but they never get all of it. Consider also how many talented kids who sign with P5 schools tire of warming the bench and enter the transfer portal each year.
01-19-2020 12:11 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bullet Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 38,136
Joined: Apr 2012
Reputation: 1256
I Root For: Texas, UK, UGA
Location:
Post: #90
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 12:11 PM)colohank Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 11:21 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:33 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:50 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  Using Massey's matchup widget, I put in Florida's SEC schedule home and away for Navy. 5-3.
Navy's Army, Air Force, ND schedule isn't changing regardless of conference home, so Massey has 8-4 for Navy in the SEC East.

That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.

I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions.

Yes, that's the obvious point that some are trying to argue with here. Pretty amazing. They point to Navy vs P5 games here and there - a single game on the schedule or a bowl game - and ignore the likely cumulative effects of getting beaten up by bigger and stronger and more talented players week in and week out.

Essentially, they are arguing that there isn't a significant talent and physicality gap between the SEC and the AAC, which is pretty astonishing.

A talent gap, no doubt, if you're talking about the SEC's top two or three programs. But not so much of a gap if you're comparing the best of the AAC with Arkansas, Mississippi State, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, et al. As for size and physicality (athleticism, perhaps?), the SEC doesn't have a monopoly on that, either. The SEC and the rest of the P5 may try very hard to skim the cream, but they never get all of it. Consider also how many talented kids who sign with P5 schools tire of warming the bench and enter the transfer portal each year.

There are a good number who go the other way. Star at G5 and transfer to Alabama or Georgia to fill a hole.
01-19-2020 12:14 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JHS55 Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,878
Joined: Jan 2016
Reputation: 105
I Root For: Houston
Location:
Post: #91
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
Oh this is all so yesterday’s old garbage, with the player compensation starting in 2023 all this bickering about A5 and g5 will be a non talking point
Already some of my longhorn business partners are talking direct cash flow to these kids here in my city, lots of deep pockets here in houston
01-19-2020 12:24 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
CoastalVANDAL Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 349
Joined: Apr 2013
Reputation: 8
I Root For: Idaho
Location:
Post: #92
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
The G5 top ten
1. Memphis
2. App st
3.Navy
4. Cincinnati
5.Air force
6.Boise
7.UCF
8. SMU
9.FAU
10 . ULL
01-19-2020 12:46 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
slhNavy91 Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,761
Joined: Jul 2015
Reputation: 361
I Root For: Navy
Location:
Post: #93
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 12:11 PM)colohank Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 11:21 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:33 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:50 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  Using Massey's matchup widget, I put in Florida's SEC schedule home and away for Navy. 5-3.
Navy's Army, Air Force, ND schedule isn't changing regardless of conference home, so Massey has 8-4 for Navy in the SEC East.

That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.

I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions.

Yes, that's the obvious point that some are trying to argue with here. Pretty amazing. They point to Navy vs P5 games here and there - a single game on the schedule or a bowl game - and ignore the likely cumulative effects of getting beaten up by bigger and stronger and more talented players week in and week out.

Essentially, they are arguing that there isn't a significant talent and physicality gap between the SEC and the AAC, which is pretty astonishing.

A talent gap, no doubt, if you're talking about the SEC's top two or three programs. But not so much of a gap if you're comparing the best of the AAC with Arkansas, Mississippi State, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, et al. As for size and physicality (athleticism, perhaps?), the SEC doesn't have a monopoly on that, either. The SEC and the rest of the P5 may try very hard to skim the cream, but they never get all of it. Consider also how many talented kids who sign with P5 schools tire of warming the bench and enter the transfer portal each year.
here are the average starting O-Line weights of Navy's AAC schedule this year and UF's SEC schedule this year
328.6 Georgia
322 Missouri
321.4 LSU
318 S.Carolina
316.8 Kentucky
316.4 Tennessee
315.8 USF
308.2 Tulsa

307 Auburn
306.6 Vanderbilt
303.8 SMU
303 Tulane
299.4 Houston
297.6 UConn
293 ECU
289.4 Memphis

The UF conf schedule averages 317.11 and the Navy conf schedule averages 301.275

Navy's D-Line averages 271.3 - so it would go from being outweighed by 30 pounds week after week after week to being outweighted by 45.8 pounds week after week after week.

Here are D-Line averages:
321 LSU
308 Kentucky
306.3 Tennessee
296.6 Tulane
292.6 Georgia
292.5 UConn
292 Tulsa

288.25 Auburn
281.25 Missouri
280 S. Carolina
275.25 Vanderbilt
270.25 SMU
269.75 USF
269.3 Memphis
253 ECU
251.6 Houston

The SEC teams average 294.1 and the AAC teams 274.39

Navy's O-Line averages 284.2, so would swing from having a 10 pound advantage to a 10 pound disadvantage.
01-19-2020 02:02 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
slhNavy91 Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,761
Joined: Jul 2015
Reputation: 361
I Root For: Navy
Location:
Post: #94
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:33 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:50 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 11:28 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Yeah no way Cincinnati or Memphis finishes with 10 wins if they played Pitt's schedule in the ACC: Virginia, Duke, Syracuse, Miami FL, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and BC...


well... then again maybe they would..

Well since the ACC was a borderline G5 conference this year, you are probably right. So I should have limited my claim to the 4 actual "P" conferences this year. Then again I did use the B1G and SEC as my examples.

Using Massey's matchup widget, I put in Florida's SEC schedule home and away for Navy. 5-3.
Navy's Army, Air Force, ND schedule isn't changing regardless of conference home, so Massey has 8-4 for Navy in the SEC East.

That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.

I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions. Navy might start the season well in any P5 conference. They sure as hell wouldn't finish it well even against the mid tier and bottom tier competition within those conferences because they would be giving away about 90 lbs a man on the lines and would be deficient in size at linebacker as well.

So go back to running your computer simulations because that's the only world in which they end the season with their health. And my evidence is the decision of the commandants to protect the investments of the taxpayers when they withdrew from playing all but a few games a year against the P5.

Bolded section just ignorant by the way.

Navy stopped playing games other than bowls vs the contract-bowl-conferences, because joining the AAC meant that 11 of our 12 games are scheduled each year. Our 12th game is a fifth or sixth home game (yes that is an FCS. One, not two like UF and Army had this year.) which is worth $1-2 M to us.

In the five years prior to joining the American, Navy had three or four regular season games vs BCS auto-qual conferences each of those years. South Carolina in '11 (I believe with Lattimore and Clowney) the only SEC team. Big10 was finisihing a home&home with OSU, PSU, a home and home with Indiana. Lots of BigEast (BCS AutoQual, remember) and ACC. Looks like we covered the SEC footprint with non-auto-qual conferences.

Yeah, four is less than eight

But, oh, what Navy joined, negotiating in 2011 and signing in January 2012 was a BCS Auto-qual conference. That seems like kind of the opposite of choosing AGAINST playing the big schools.
01-19-2020 02:16 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
quo vadis Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 33,236
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 844
I Root For: USF/Georgetown
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #95
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 12:11 PM)colohank Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 11:21 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:33 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:50 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  Using Massey's matchup widget, I put in Florida's SEC schedule home and away for Navy. 5-3.
Navy's Army, Air Force, ND schedule isn't changing regardless of conference home, so Massey has 8-4 for Navy in the SEC East.

That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.

I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions.

Yes, that's the obvious point that some are trying to argue with here. Pretty amazing. They point to Navy vs P5 games here and there - a single game on the schedule or a bowl game - and ignore the likely cumulative effects of getting beaten up by bigger and stronger and more talented players week in and week out.

Essentially, they are arguing that there isn't a significant talent and physicality gap between the SEC and the AAC, which is pretty astonishing.

A talent gap, no doubt, if you're talking about the SEC's top two or three programs. But not so much of a gap if you're comparing the best of the AAC with Arkansas, Mississippi State, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, et al. As for size and physicality (athleticism, perhaps?), the SEC doesn't have a monopoly on that, either. The SEC and the rest of the P5 may try very hard to skim the cream, but they never get all of it. Consider also how many talented kids who sign with P5 schools tire of warming the bench and enter the transfer portal each year.

I posted chapter and verse on previous pages about how on any metric - recruiting rankings on the input side and NFL draft on the output side - even the middling to lower SEC teams generally have a clear talent advantage over even the top AAC teams, and that would apply even moreso to Navy, a team that has physical limits for linemen.
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2020 06:39 PM by quo vadis.)
01-19-2020 04:52 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bill dazzle Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,057
Joined: Aug 2016
Reputation: 65
I Root For: VUMemIUDePaulNC
Location: Tower Crane Town
Post: #96
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 04:52 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:11 PM)colohank Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 11:21 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:33 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  That’s the best evidence posted in the thread. From my eye, Navy was better than a trio of 8-5 teams in Indiana, Kentucky & Tennessee (Massey has Navy 15+ spots above all 3) so that’s an easy conclusion for me to agree with.

I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions.

Yes, that's the obvious point that some are trying to argue with here. Pretty amazing. They point to Navy vs P5 games here and there - a single game on the schedule or a bowl game - and ignore the likely cumulative effects of getting beaten up by bigger and stronger and more talented players week in and week out.

Essentially, they are arguing that there isn't a significant talent and physicality gap between the SEC and the AAC, which is pretty astonishing.

A talent gap, no doubt, if you're talking about the SEC's top two or three programs. But not so much of a gap if you're comparing the best of the AAC with Arkansas, Mississippi State, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, et al. As for size and physicality (athleticism, perhaps?), the SEC doesn't have a monopoly on that, either. The SEC and the rest of the P5 may try very hard to skim the cream, but they never get all of it. Consider also how many talented kids who sign with P5 schools tire of warming the bench and enter the transfer portal each year.

I posted chapter and verse on previous pages about how on any metric - recruiting rankings on the input side and NFL draft on the output side - even the middling to lower SEC teams have a clear talent advantage over even the top AAC teams, and that would apply even moreso to Navy, a team that has physical limits for linemen.

Quo, you write:

"... how on any metric ... even the middling to lower SEC teams have a clear talent advantage over even the top AAC teams."

The metrics must not have been familiar with this past Vanderbilt football team, my friend.

And it's not like Arkansas and Ole Miss (at least this year) had more talent than the Top 5 AAC teams.

But in general, I agree.
01-19-2020 05:50 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
quo vadis Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 33,236
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 844
I Root For: USF/Georgetown
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #97
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 05:50 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 04:52 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:11 PM)colohank Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 11:21 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:  I've listened to enough of this hooey now. The service academies quit playing a lot of P5's for a reason. Size differential. Their lines were getting too banged up and too many injuries were amassing. None of these computers take size differential or depth into consideration for their predictions.

Yes, that's the obvious point that some are trying to argue with here. Pretty amazing. They point to Navy vs P5 games here and there - a single game on the schedule or a bowl game - and ignore the likely cumulative effects of getting beaten up by bigger and stronger and more talented players week in and week out.

Essentially, they are arguing that there isn't a significant talent and physicality gap between the SEC and the AAC, which is pretty astonishing.

A talent gap, no doubt, if you're talking about the SEC's top two or three programs. But not so much of a gap if you're comparing the best of the AAC with Arkansas, Mississippi State, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, et al. As for size and physicality (athleticism, perhaps?), the SEC doesn't have a monopoly on that, either. The SEC and the rest of the P5 may try very hard to skim the cream, but they never get all of it. Consider also how many talented kids who sign with P5 schools tire of warming the bench and enter the transfer portal each year.

I posted chapter and verse on previous pages about how on any metric - recruiting rankings on the input side and NFL draft on the output side - even the middling to lower SEC teams have a clear talent advantage over even the top AAC teams, and that would apply even moreso to Navy, a team that has physical limits for linemen.

Quo, you write:

"... how on any metric ... even the middling to lower SEC teams have a clear talent advantage over even the top AAC teams."

The metrics must not have been familiar with this past Vanderbilt football team, my friend.

And it's not like Arkansas and Ole Miss (at least this year) had more talent than the Top 5 AAC teams.

But in general, I agree.

Bill, after reading your post, I added the word "generally" to the description, as I didn't intend to say that every middling to lower SEC team that has ever existed has or has had a clear talent advantage over every top AAC team. Hopefully that clarifies.
01-19-2020 06:40 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bill dazzle Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,057
Joined: Aug 2016
Reputation: 65
I Root For: VUMemIUDePaulNC
Location: Tower Crane Town
Post: #98
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-19-2020 06:40 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 05:50 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 04:52 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:11 PM)colohank Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 11:21 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Yes, that's the obvious point that some are trying to argue with here. Pretty amazing. They point to Navy vs P5 games here and there - a single game on the schedule or a bowl game - and ignore the likely cumulative effects of getting beaten up by bigger and stronger and more talented players week in and week out.

Essentially, they are arguing that there isn't a significant talent and physicality gap between the SEC and the AAC, which is pretty astonishing.

A talent gap, no doubt, if you're talking about the SEC's top two or three programs. But not so much of a gap if you're comparing the best of the AAC with Arkansas, Mississippi State, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, et al. As for size and physicality (athleticism, perhaps?), the SEC doesn't have a monopoly on that, either. The SEC and the rest of the P5 may try very hard to skim the cream, but they never get all of it. Consider also how many talented kids who sign with P5 schools tire of warming the bench and enter the transfer portal each year.

I posted chapter and verse on previous pages about how on any metric - recruiting rankings on the input side and NFL draft on the output side - even the middling to lower SEC teams have a clear talent advantage over even the top AAC teams, and that would apply even moreso to Navy, a team that has physical limits for linemen.

Quo, you write:

"... how on any metric ... even the middling to lower SEC teams have a clear talent advantage over even the top AAC teams."

The metrics must not have been familiar with this past Vanderbilt football team, my friend.

And it's not like Arkansas and Ole Miss (at least this year) had more talent than the Top 5 AAC teams.

But in general, I agree.

Bill, after reading your post, I added the word "generally" to the description, as I didn't intend to say that every middling to lower SEC team that has ever existed has or has had a clear talent advantage over every top AAC team. Hopefully that clarifies.

A fair and specific modification, QV. I'm with you 100 percent now.
01-19-2020 06:49 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Cattidude Offline
Water Engineer
*

Posts: 44
Joined: Aug 2019
Reputation: 3
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #99
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
(01-16-2020 04:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-16-2020 03:45 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 05:04 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 03:32 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 03:06 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  How do you determine who is "deserving" vs. who is the "best"? How do you know an 8-5 P5 school is better than a 10-3 G5 school, particularly one that has beaten a couple P5 schools?

What you are really saying is that the schools that have the right name and are in the right conference should be the only ones that get ranked.

My first take got buried way back on page 1, but the conversation based on a presumption about Navy continues, so...

It wasn't buried, at least not with me. I just don't know the usefulness of the Massey Widget. We know that (pre-bowl) Massey has Navy as the #21 team in the country, which is ahead of all the SEC East teams save for Florida and Georgia, so presumably Massey thinks they would lose to those two but beat Mizzou, Kentucky, South Carolina, and Tennessee.

I don't buy that, I think if Navy had to play those teams, all of whom have better athletes, they'd get beat up pretty bad and there would be a negative carry-over week to week that they don't experience in the AAC.

E.g., I looked at last year's (2019) recruiting rankings, and South Carolina had seven four-star recruits. Tennessee had twelve. Not only did Navy not have any four-star recruits, the entire AAC had zero four-star recruits. Navy plays teams in the AAC that don't have a real talent advantage over them - Navy had 3-star recruits just like other AAC teams, in the SEC East they would, even against the bad teams.

There's nothing magical about Navy - you play the triple-option, which teams don't see a lot of. But once bigger/stronger/faster teams started to see it, they'd get used to it, and they would wear you down and out. Your smaller guys would get hit and banged up and knocked out. There would be a cumulative wear-tear effect that Massey can't capture.

The only team Navy regularly plays that has a significant talent advantage is Notre Dame, and we know how that goes - in the last 9 seasons, Navy is 1-8 vs Notre Dame and they won that game by a point.

So I think that after a season playing AAC teams, Navy very likely could beat UT, SC, Mizzou, or Kentucky in a bowl game. Likely go 1-0 versus each of them. Outprepare and scheme and hustle each of them in a single game, like they just did to K-State. But having to play those four, plus Georgia and Florida sequentially as part of a season? They couldn't last.

Just my opinion.
In 2012, everyone opined that Navy would never survive week-after-week in the Big East of Rutgers and Louisville.
In 2015, everyone ALSO opined that Navy would never survive week-after-week in the American Athletic Conference.
Somehow Navy won 67.5% of AAC games in the five years since then.

I wouldn't bet on Navy vs the LSU, Auburn, UGA end of Florida's schedule, or even Florida.
But comparing the bottom of the East to the AAC teams Navy played this year...

On 247, I see:
2019 -- This year's freshmen or redshirts
S.Carolina one 5*, five 4*, seventeen 3*
Kentucky three 4*, nineteen 3*
Missouri three 4*, nineteen 3*
Vanderbilt zero 4-5 *, twenty-one 3* score of 182.42, #57
Memphis twenty-two 3* score of 172.84, #67
SMU seventeen 3* #68
Houston seventeen 3*
USF nineteen 3*

2016 -- This year's seniors or rs juniors
S.Carolina six 4*, twenty 3*
Kentucky three 4* twentythree 3* score of 204.7, #34
Houston one 5*, three 4*, fourteen 3* score of 201.5 #36
Missouri two 4* eighteen 3* score of 188.37 #43
Vanderbilt one 4* eighteen 3* score of 171.54 #54
Memphis eighteen 3* score of 165.98 #61
USF one 4*, fifteen 3*
SMU seventeen 3*


You really think that Navy can play half that group week after week after week and not the other half?
That those couple of guys with a fourth star make that much difference and would break all twenty-two of Navy's starter?

And more to the point, that Houston (when they're not tanking in their red shirts), Memphis, UCF (omitted on these because I started with games Navy played this year, but would have rasied the AAC profile), USF, SMU couldn't play them week after week and do better than 6-6?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

It is plain that the TOP of the autonomous conferences - the CFP contenders - are a level above the best of the AAC this year. But the bottom half (or more than half) just aren't. Not in performance and results, and not in recruits/athletes.

I noticed you threw Vanderbilt in there, who I never mentioned. I concede you would regularly beat Vanderbilt, LOL.

As I said, just in this recruiting class, the entire AAC has no 4-star players, Tennessee alone has a bunch of them. Doesn't that close the door on the talent discussion?

But since you mentioned earlier classes, I checked Rivals for 2018: Tennessee had 8 four-star guys, SC had 9, UK had 3, Mizzou had 2, even Vandy had 4.

The entire AAC? Cincy had 3, UCF 1, everyone else, meaning the entire AAC West ... zero. Vandy had as many 4-star recruits in 2018 as the entire AAC. The *lowest* rated SEC East team was #42. The highest AAC West team was rated #58.

In 2017, the SEC East teams not counting FLA and UGA ranged from 15 to 58 in the recruiting rankings. The best AAC West team was #64.

The only year of the last five years, 2015 - 2019, when *any* AAC West team was ranked higher than *any* of the lesser 5 SEC East teams was 2016, when Houston had a monster recruiting year by their standards. They were #41 that year, ahead of #47 MZ and #56 Vandy. Those latter two were still ahead of all other AAC West schools. I also noticed that Navy is 2-3 during its time in the AAC vs Houston, a team that typically has more athletes than it has coaches. Athletes trouble Navy.

And all of that is not counting Florida and Georgia, both typically loaded with big rangy fast NFL-bound athletes, both of whom would get to blast Navy and soften them up for games vs the lesser teams in the SEC East.

That's the thing - it's a cumulative effect of getting banged up.

As for performance, looking at the Sagarin rankings, the SEC East has been ahead of the AAC West all of the past 5 years, with a range of 4 - 16 Sagarin points. Even this year, a banner year for the AAC West, in which it finished ahead of both ACC divisions, the SEC East was better.

The talent gap is big, and IMO Navy would just get beat up and knocked out, worn down week after week playing bigger/stronger/faster guys.

Who knows? Maybe Navy will join the SEC one day and we will find out?

Cincinnati has two 4* players currently in this recruiting class and should have a third once Anderson gets his ratings bump
01-20-2020 07:31 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Kit-Cat Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,910
Joined: Jun 2002
Reputation: 23
I Root For: Championships
Location:

CrappiesCrappiesCrappiesCrappiesCrappies
Post: #100
RE: G5 Has 7 in Final AP Top 25
Without rehashing anything the fact that the weakest programs of the SEC will still get four or five guys in a recruiting class with 4 stars just by default because they play in the SEC does make a difference.

07-coffee3
01-20-2020 09:19 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2020 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2020 MyBB Group.