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Jim Brown CFB GOAT
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SoCalBobcat78 Online
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Post: #41
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-14-2020 09:05 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  No one in history could jump cut and change directions, and generally make defenders look like absolute fools like Sanders. The GOAT RB of all time, IMO.

Did you ever see Gale Sayers play?
01-15-2020 01:46 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-15-2020 01:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 09:05 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  No one in history could jump cut and change directions, and generally make defenders look like absolute fools like Sanders. The GOAT RB of all time, IMO.

Did you ever see Gale Sayers play?

Gale was so fluid.

Never saw Jim Brown.
01-15-2020 02:13 PM
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SoCalBobcat78 Online
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Post: #43
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-15-2020 02:13 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 01:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 09:05 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  No one in history could jump cut and change directions, and generally make defenders look like absolute fools like Sanders. The GOAT RB of all time, IMO.

Did you ever see Gale Sayers play?

Gale was so fluid.

Never saw Jim Brown.

I saw them both play on TV. In 1965, Brown's last season, he scored 21 touchdowns and was MVP at age 29. He led the NFL in rushing in 8 of his 9 seasons and made the Pro Bowl all nine seasons. The 21 touchdowns would have been an NFL record at the time, but Sayers as a rookie had 22 touchdowns. Brown retired as the greatest running back ever at that time and I am not sure I have seen anybody better since. Sayers was the greatest open field runner I ever saw. Sanders was close.
01-15-2020 02:59 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-15-2020 02:59 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 02:13 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 01:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 09:05 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  No one in history could jump cut and change directions, and generally make defenders look like absolute fools like Sanders. The GOAT RB of all time, IMO.

Did you ever see Gale Sayers play?

Gale was so fluid.

Never saw Jim Brown.

I saw them both play on TV. In 1965, Brown's last season, he scored 21 touchdowns and was MVP at age 29. He led the NFL in rushing in 8 of his 9 seasons and made the Pro Bowl all nine seasons. The 21 touchdowns would have been an NFL record at the time, but Sayers as a rookie had 22 touchdowns. Brown retired as the greatest running back ever at that time and I am not sure I have seen anybody better since. Sayers was the greatest open field runner I ever saw. Sanders was close.

Brown led the NFL in rushing 8 times, a class by himself. Nobody else has done it more than 4 times - Smith, Sanders, Dickerson, OJ, and Van Buren.

FWIW, Dickerson was the best back i ever saw. Big, long legs, effortless stride, power inside and breakway speed.
And from 0 to 10,000 yards he was statistically the best.
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2020 03:23 PM by quo vadis.)
01-15-2020 03:21 PM
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panama Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-14-2020 12:08 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:04 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 11:57 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 10:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 09:41 AM)kevinwmsn Wrote:  If the USC guy didn't do what he did, do you think he would have cracked the top 11?

Easily. OJ arguably was #1. Right up there with the best.

IMO too many extaneous things like NFL and character taint this list.

I don't know, he's arguably not even the best USC running back ever. It's pretty close between OJ and Marcus Allen.

I think he is, but still, that's kind of like saying "I don't know if Jabbar was the greatest center ever, he's arguably not even the best Lakers center. It's pretty close between him and Shaq and Wilt".

Well duh, because Shaq and Wilt are very strong "GOAT center" candidates themselves, just like Marcus is as a college RB.

Really getting off topic to talk about NBA players -- but there's NFW that Shaq and Wilt were as good as Kareem.
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01-15-2020 07:07 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-15-2020 07:07 PM)panama Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:08 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:04 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 11:57 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 10:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Easily. OJ arguably was #1. Right up there with the best.

IMO too many extaneous things like NFL and character taint this list.

I don't know, he's arguably not even the best USC running back ever. It's pretty close between OJ and Marcus Allen.

I think he is, but still, that's kind of like saying "I don't know if Jabbar was the greatest center ever, he's arguably not even the best Lakers center. It's pretty close between him and Shaq and Wilt".

Well duh, because Shaq and Wilt are very strong "GOAT center" candidates themselves, just like Marcus is as a college RB.

Really getting off topic to talk about NBA players -- but there's NFW that Shaq and Wilt were as good as Kareem.
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Wilt 4 with less of a supporting cast. LeBron also has 4. Bill Russell and Michael Jordan 5. Larry and Magic 3 with great supporting casts. Moses Malone 3, 2 times doing it with "4 guys from Petersburg." Hakeem Olajuwon much underrated with only 1 and "4 guys from Lagos."
01-15-2020 07:54 PM
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BewareThePhog Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-15-2020 01:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 09:05 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  No one in history could jump cut and change directions, and generally make defenders look like absolute fools like Sanders. The GOAT RB of all time, IMO.

Did you ever see Gale Sayers play?
You beat me to it. Barry was absolutely amazing, but so was Gale. He had a fine college career, and an amazing NFL career that was cut short by injuries and spent on a Bears team in decline. (Although getting Sayers and Butkus together is one helluva combo.)
01-15-2020 08:07 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-14-2020 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Brown is probably the NFL GOAT, but i do not think his college accomplishments enough to merit that.
This.

Jim Brown’s football legacy is 99.9% Cleveland Browns and 00.1% Syracuse.

Now, because it’s Jim Brown we’re talking about, 00.1% of him is still more than 100% of a lot of other players. But one of the Top 11 players ever?? Hmmmm
01-15-2020 09:17 PM
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Native Georgian Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-15-2020 02:59 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  In 1965, Brown's last season, he scored 21 touchdowns and was MVP at age 29.
It’s long forgotten now, but Jim Brown had made definite plans to come back and play at least one more year (1966, and then ??) for Cleveland. During the off-season, he was in Europe making a movie (Dirty Dozen with Lee Marvin, which was a solid supporting role for him). The filming schedule was supposed to allow him to get back to the States in time for training camp, but things dragged out and he was going to miss the first 2-3 weeks or whatever. Cleveland Browns owner Art Modell announced that Brown would be fined for each day of absence. Within a matter of hours (possible exaggeration but only slight), Jim Brown said Modell could keep all of the money and that he was retiring, effective immediately. He is that kind of man.

Such a comment, backed up with action, would barely be noticed in the sports-media landscape of 2020. In 1966, things were... different.
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2020 09:29 PM by Native Georgian.)
01-15-2020 09:28 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-15-2020 01:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 09:05 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  No one in history could jump cut and change directions, and generally make defenders look like absolute fools like Sanders. The GOAT RB of all time, IMO.

Did you ever see Gale Sayers play?

No. I'm getting pretty darn old, but you'd need to be about 65 today to have seen Sayers play live. Maybe 60 if you watched him when you were 6 or 7 years old. Sayers started his NFL career 55 years ago and played only a few years. My earliest memories are in the mid 70's.
01-16-2020 12:46 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-15-2020 09:17 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Brown is probably the NFL GOAT, but i do not think his college accomplishments enough to merit that.
This.

Jim Brown’s football legacy is 99.9% Cleveland Browns and 00.1% Syracuse.

Now, because it’s Jim Brown we’re talking about, 00.1% of him is still more than 100% of a lot of other players. But one of the Top 11 players ever?? Hmmmm

I agree the NFL helped but he was pretty damned impressive in CFB. He played FB (two ways and kicked), BB, Track and Lacrosse.

He would've won the Heisman if he played 5 years later. His body was chiseled steel and this was before weight training and supplements

His college time at Syracuse cemented him as an all time great player. The guy played Offense and Defense unlike about 99% of the modern players on the list
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2020 02:41 PM by TexanMark.)
01-16-2020 02:40 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-15-2020 10:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 10:18 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Brown is probably the NFL GOAT, but i do not think his college accomplishments enough to merit that.

GOAT will always be in the eye of the beholder. And I always think that the age of the beholder strongly influences his vote. For an old fart like me, when I heard they were going to make this list, my mind immediately went to Jim Brown.

But why? Did you really see Jim Brown play in college football? You'd have to be in your 70s to have done that. You might be but I'm just saying, because I'm 55, a pretty old fart myself, and not only never saw him play in college, I missed his whole NFL career as well. He retired when I was 1 years old.

So just looking at his college numbers, I don't think there's any way he can be regarded as the GOAT, not even close. Not ahead of Herschel and Bo and OJ, and that QB from Nebraska in the 90s or Tebow or Cam or a whole bunch of guys. Ron Dayne had a better career. Bleacher Report had him as the #8 RB of all time and that was generous.

I think it obvious that a Halo Effect caused by his NFL GOAT-ness and his overall multi-sport athletic greatness is influencing this appraisal.

I did, and I am. I'm not some young whippersnapper like you guys (only really old farts talk like that). 04-cheers

I'm old enough to have watched Bobby Thompson's home run against the Dodgers break my dad's heart and Notre Dame's Dick Lynch end the Sooners 47 game winning streak.

It's really meaningless to compare modern statistics to earlier eras like that one. Sports - all sports - have changed far too much. As for Heisman voting, I doubt there was another black player in the Top Ten that year, and the guys ahead of him couldn't hold a candle to Jim Brown. If Paul Hornung had been on any other team besides Notre Dame he would only have gotten a handful of votes instead of winning it all.

So, get off my lawn!
01-16-2020 04:08 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-16-2020 04:08 PM)ken d Wrote:  It's really meaningless to compare modern statistics to earlier eras like that one. Sports - all sports - have changed far too much. As for Heisman voting, I doubt there was another black player in the Top Ten that year, and the guys ahead of him couldn't hold a candle to Jim Brown. If Paul Hornung had been on any other team besides Notre Dame he would only have gotten a handful of votes instead of winning it all.

Maybe Brown didn't win the 1956 Heisman because he was black, but just by the numbers, he wasn't dominant. You could make a case for him as the Heisman winner - and some did, which is why he finished 5th. But it's not like he had a Barry Sanders year and was just passed over for no reason. Both Oklahoma backs who finished ahead of him arguably had better years.

As for the top 8, it was a good list. The guys who finished behind Brown were great players. Ron Kramer, a Michigan TE, was an All-Pro in the NFL, as was QB John Brodie with the 49ers, and the 8th place guy - OL Jim Parker of Ohio State, also black, is in the NFL Hall of Fame, like Brown and Hornung. So three of the top eight finalists made the Pro Football HoF.
01-16-2020 05:31 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-16-2020 05:31 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-16-2020 04:08 PM)ken d Wrote:  It's really meaningless to compare modern statistics to earlier eras like that one. Sports - all sports - have changed far too much. As for Heisman voting, I doubt there was another black player in the Top Ten that year, and the guys ahead of him couldn't hold a candle to Jim Brown. If Paul Hornung had been on any other team besides Notre Dame he would only have gotten a handful of votes instead of winning it all.

Maybe Brown didn't win the 1956 Heisman because he was black, but just by the numbers, he wasn't dominant. You could make a case for him as the Heisman winner - and some did, which is why he finished 5th. But it's not like he had a Barry Sanders year and was just passed over for no reason. Both Oklahoma backs who finished ahead of him arguably had better years.

As for the top 8, it was a good list. The guys who finished behind Brown were great players. Ron Kramer, a Michigan TE, was an All-Pro in the NFL, as was QB John Brodie with the 49ers, and the 8th place guy - OL Jim Parker of Ohio State, also black, is in the NFL Hall of Fame, like Brown and Hornung. So three of the top eight finalists made the Pro Football HoF.

Every time he touched the ball rushing he averaged 6 1/2 yards. That is pretty damn good. You have to remember he was playing defense too, caught passes and kicked too.
01-16-2020 09:26 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-16-2020 12:46 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 01:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 09:05 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  No one in history could jump cut and change directions, and generally make defenders look like absolute fools like Sanders. The GOAT RB of all time, IMO.

Did you ever see Gale Sayers play?

No. I'm getting pretty darn old, but you'd need to be about 65 today to have seen Sayers play live. Maybe 60 if you watched him when you were 6 or 7 years old. Sayers started his NFL career 55 years ago and played only a few years. My earliest memories are in the mid 70's.
Sayers retired in '71, so someone 65 would have been 17 then.
01-17-2020 10:40 AM
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Post: #56
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-16-2020 02:40 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 09:17 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Brown is probably the NFL GOAT, but i do not think his college accomplishments enough to merit that.
This.

Jim Brown’s football legacy is 99.9% Cleveland Browns and 00.1% Syracuse.

Now, because it’s Jim Brown we’re talking about, 00.1% of him is still more than 100% of a lot of other players. But one of the Top 11 players ever?? Hmmmm

I agree the NFL helped but he was pretty damned impressive in CFB. He played FB (two ways and kicked), BB, Track and Lacrosse.

He would've won the Heisman if he played 5 years later. His body was chiseled steel and this was before weight training and supplements

His college time at Syracuse cemented him as an all time great player. The guy played Offense and Defense unlike about 99% of the modern players on the list

Tommy Nobis continued to play both offense and defense even after the unlimited substitution rules came in.
01-17-2020 10:41 AM
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SoCalBobcat78 Online
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Post: #57
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-17-2020 10:40 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-16-2020 12:46 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 01:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 09:05 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  No one in history could jump cut and change directions, and generally make defenders look like absolute fools like Sanders. The GOAT RB of all time, IMO.

Did you ever see Gale Sayers play?

No. I'm getting pretty darn old, but you'd need to be about 65 today to have seen Sayers play live. Maybe 60 if you watched him when you were 6 or 7 years old. Sayers started his NFL career 55 years ago and played only a few years. My earliest memories are in the mid 70's.
Sayers retired in '71, so someone 65 would have been 17 then.

I was ten years old in 1965 living in the Chicago area, so I got to see a lot of Gale Sayers on TV when the Bears were on the road. For home games, you had to listen to the game on the radio and catch the highlights later that day. The NFL did not televise home games in those days. In those days, everyone saw Jim Brown when he was playing on TV, because the Browns were pretty good. The Browns won the NFL Championship in 1964 and lost the NFL Championship in 1965 to the Packers.
01-17-2020 03:48 PM
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Post: #58
RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-17-2020 10:40 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-16-2020 12:46 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 01:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 09:05 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  No one in history could jump cut and change directions, and generally make defenders look like absolute fools like Sanders. The GOAT RB of all time, IMO.

Did you ever see Gale Sayers play?

No. I'm getting pretty darn old, but you'd need to be about 65 today to have seen Sayers play live. Maybe 60 if you watched him when you were 6 or 7 years old. Sayers started his NFL career 55 years ago and played only a few years. My earliest memories are in the mid 70's.
Sayers retired in '71, so someone 65 would have been 17 then.

That's why I said maybe 60. Someone 60 today would have been between 5 and 11 years old (that's why I said they would be about 6 or 7) to see Sayers play. I don't know about you, but I wasn't watching a whole lot of football at age 5. 10 or 11 maybe.

Someone 65 today, would have been between 10-16 when Sayers played. More realistic. I watched a lot of sports between those ages.
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2020 04:00 PM by BullsFanInTX.)
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Jim Brown CFB GOAT
There are only two men who have threatened to unretire from the NFL in their 40s that I actually thought could do it. Herschel Walker and Jim Brown.

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01-17-2020 05:58 PM
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RE: Jim Brown CFB GOAT
(01-16-2020 04:08 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 10:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 10:18 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Brown is probably the NFL GOAT, but i do not think his college accomplishments enough to merit that.

GOAT will always be in the eye of the beholder. And I always think that the age of the beholder strongly influences his vote. For an old fart like me, when I heard they were going to make this list, my mind immediately went to Jim Brown.

But why? Did you really see Jim Brown play in college football? You'd have to be in your 70s to have done that. You might be but I'm just saying, because I'm 55, a pretty old fart myself, and not only never saw him play in college, I missed his whole NFL career as well. He retired when I was 1 years old.

So just looking at his college numbers, I don't think there's any way he can be regarded as the GOAT, not even close. Not ahead of Herschel and Bo and OJ, and that QB from Nebraska in the 90s or Tebow or Cam or a whole bunch of guys. Ron Dayne had a better career. Bleacher Report had him as the #8 RB of all time and that was generous.

I think it obvious that a Halo Effect caused by his NFL GOAT-ness and his overall multi-sport athletic greatness is influencing this appraisal.

I did, and I am. I'm not some young whippersnapper like you guys (only really old farts talk like that). 04-cheers

I'm old enough to have watched Bobby Thompson's home run against the Dodgers break my dad's heart and Notre Dame's Dick Lynch end the Sooners 47 game winning streak.

It's really meaningless to compare modern statistics to earlier eras like that one. Sports - all sports - have changed far too much. As for Heisman voting, I doubt there was another black player in the Top Ten that year, and the guys ahead of him couldn't hold a candle to Jim Brown. If Paul Hornung had been on any other team besides Notre Dame he would only have gotten a handful of votes instead of winning it all.

So, get off my lawn!
Agree 100% on Hornung. I Mena Jim Brown is THE model Syracuse #44. They competed with USC for a few years as you which was RB U. Some are acting like he was an average player that suddenly got GREAT in the NFL.

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