Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
Author Message
Bookmark and Share
DetroitRocket Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,821
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 13
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #1
WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
01-13-2020 02:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


BearcatMan Online
Kicking Connoisseur/Occasional Man Crush
*

Posts: 14,871
Joined: Jan 2009
Reputation: 239
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #2
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
There is a reckoning coming, myself and PaulJ have been talking about it for awhile on here. Their numbers are almost exactly the same as our as far as enrollment decreases are concerned...but they all receive quite a bit more in SSI Money from the state of Michigan. More and more people are becoming privy to the issues...and honestly, there isn't a correction that doesn't hurt institutions A LOT (ie cutting complete colleges from the operation).
01-13-2020 02:27 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
FMRocket Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,816
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 16
I Root For: UT Blue & Gold
Location: Perrysburg, Ohio
Post: #3
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 02:27 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  There is a reckoning coming, myself and PaulJ have been talking about it for awhile on here. Their numbers are almost exactly the same as our as far as enrollment decreases are concerned...but they all receive quite a bit more in SSI Money from the state of Michigan. More and more people are becoming privy to the issues...and honestly, there isn't a correction that doesn't hurt institutions A LOT (ie cutting complete colleges from the operation).

Not saying this will ever happen or be feasible, state institutions with a close proximity (UT/bgsu or Akron/Kent State) could merge...
01-13-2020 03:00 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
eastisbest Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 10,148
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 35
I Root For: Toledo
Location:
Post: #4
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 03:00 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 02:27 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  There is a reckoning coming, myself and PaulJ have been talking about it for awhile on here. Their numbers are almost exactly the same as our as far as enrollment decreases are concerned...but they all receive quite a bit more in SSI Money from the state of Michigan. More and more people are becoming privy to the issues...and honestly, there isn't a correction that doesn't hurt institutions A LOT (ie cutting complete colleges from the operation).

Not saying this will ever happen or be feasible, state institutions with a close proximity (UT/bgsu or Akron/Kent State) could merge...

Any idea where the savings would be? Some in high Admin (one Pres) but besides the look factor, that's a drop in the bucket of the budget. Looking for comparable relationships, Ohio St - Ohio St Lima is operated by a Dean. We could give BGSU a Dean but what to call them as a facility? University of Toledo Flatlands?
01-13-2020 03:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BearcatMan Online
Kicking Connoisseur/Occasional Man Crush
*

Posts: 14,871
Joined: Jan 2009
Reputation: 239
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #5
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 03:10 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 03:00 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 02:27 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  There is a reckoning coming, myself and PaulJ have been talking about it for awhile on here. Their numbers are almost exactly the same as our as far as enrollment decreases are concerned...but they all receive quite a bit more in SSI Money from the state of Michigan. More and more people are becoming privy to the issues...and honestly, there isn't a correction that doesn't hurt institutions A LOT (ie cutting complete colleges from the operation).

Not saying this will ever happen or be feasible, state institutions with a close proximity (UT/bgsu or Akron/Kent State) could merge...

Any idea where the savings would be? Some in high Admin (one Pres) but besides the look factor, that's a drop in the bucket of the budget. Looking for comparable relationships, Ohio St - Ohio St Lima is operated by a Dean. We could give BGSU a Dean but what to call them as a facility? University of Toledo Flatlands?

The value and savings is in creating one larger institution or educational consortium (BGSU/UT merge in Northwest Ohio University) and each campus eliminates the dead weight colleges that drain their budgets. Removing competition from the equation, thus allowing the prosperous colleges at each to thrive as they don't need to worry about regional competition. The clear areas here would be UT losing its Colleges of Education and Arts and Letters and BGSU losing its Colleges of Engineering and Health Sciences...even more dramatically, UT and BGSU merging into three campuses, a Liberal Arts campus (BG), a Science and Technology campus (UToledo), and a Health Sciences and Medical campus (UTMC), with the other campuses dropping all but the essential facilities, faculty, and staff. In that situation, every student currently enrolled at the Universities would still have a home, however, each institution would be able to specialize and improve in their own areas, rather than spreading resources far too thin across the entire University. The other 800-lbs gorilla is the Athletics Departments at both which run between $15M-$20M in the red every year while $5M cuts are made to the University operating budget as a whole.

I could easily see the same regional education system coming up quickly in NE Ohio with Cleveland State and Akron having similarly terrible past few years financially and Kent State expanding unsustainably in all areas. Hell our previous governor definitely laid down the foundation for this to happen by running state audits on redundant programs and departments a few years back. That was the first bell, and I could easily see the clock striking midnight here soon, as there is no way the state would want to shutter Universities completely due to the optics, however, developing regional institutions could make the entire educational environment in the state far more competitive nationally by removing competition regionally and allowing Universities to truly focus on what they're good at rather than trying to do everything and doing most of those things average at best.

To exemplify what I'm talking about...roughly 19% of the UT Academic Affairs portion of the University Operating budget is eaten up by the two Colleges I mentioned above. Those two Colleges only house roughly 10% of the undergraduate population of the University. If you eliminate those two Colleges, you have a pretty significant net cost savings. Truthfully, the University is only holding onto some programs, departments, and even colleges in order to meet classifications for certain certifications (Carnegie Research Class system, Comprehensive University classification, etc.) which truly have no merit on 99% of the undergrads who attend, which is where a bulk of a Universitiy's revenue resides.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2020 04:06 PM by BearcatMan.)
01-13-2020 04:01 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
IamN2daRockets! Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 874
Joined: Sep 2015
Reputation: 6
I Root For: Toledo
Location:
Post: #6
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
"Univ of Toledo Flatlands" ....LOLOLOLOL....best ever dis East


Go Rockets!
01-13-2020 04:04 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


IamN2daRockets! Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 874
Joined: Sep 2015
Reputation: 6
I Root For: Toledo
Location:
Post: #7
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
THERE IS A MASSIVE BUBBLE IN HIGHER ED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It will all come crashing down sooner rather than later. I am guessing at a 40% contraction over the next 20 years. If it sounds high just wait.

Go Rockets!
01-13-2020 04:06 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BearcatMan Online
Kicking Connoisseur/Occasional Man Crush
*

Posts: 14,871
Joined: Jan 2009
Reputation: 239
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #8
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 04:06 PM)IamN2daRockets! Wrote:  THERE IS A MASSIVE BUBBLE IN HIGHER ED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It will all come crashing down sooner rather than later. I am guessing at a 40% contraction over the next 20 years. If it sounds high just wait.

Go Rockets!

Well, there is a lot of verified financial projections showing that roughly 35% of all private institutions in the US will cease operations by 2030. I truly don't think the public Universities will survive as they currently exist either, but they have the public support to be able to do so if they change how they operate.
01-13-2020 04:09 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
MotoRocket Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 6,786
Joined: Nov 2004
Reputation: 15
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #9
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
No need to worry. College is going to be free and covered by taxpayers. All that's missing is Alfred E. Neuman and his quote - "What, me worry?"
01-13-2020 04:46 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
FMRocket Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,816
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 16
I Root For: UT Blue & Gold
Location: Perrysburg, Ohio
Post: #10
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 04:04 PM)IamN2daRockets! Wrote:  "Univ of Toledo Flatlands" ....LOLOLOLOL....best ever dis East


Go Rockets!

Or like some of us lovingly refer to it as - OTC
(One Tree Campus)...
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2020 05:05 PM by FMRocket.)
01-13-2020 05:04 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
eastisbest Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 10,148
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 35
I Root For: Toledo
Location:
Post: #11
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 04:01 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 03:10 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  Any idea where the savings would be? Some in high Admin (one Pres) but besides the look factor, that's a drop in the bucket of the budget. Looking for comparable relationships, Ohio St - Ohio St Lima is operated by a Dean. We could give BGSU a Dean but what to call them as a facility? University of Toledo Flatlands?

The value and savings is in creating one larger institution or educational consortium (BGSU/UT merge in Northwest Ohio University) and each campus eliminates the dead weight colleges that drain their budgets. Removing competition from the equation, thus allowing the prosperous colleges at each to thrive as they don't need to worry about regional competition. The clear areas here would be UT losing its Colleges of Education and Arts and Letters and BGSU losing its Colleges of Engineering and Health Sciences...even more dramatically, UT and BGSU merging into three campuses, a Liberal Arts campus (BG), a Science and Technology campus (UToledo), and a Health Sciences and Medical campus (UTMC), with the other campuses dropping all but the essential facilities, faculty, and staff. In that situation, every student currently enrolled at the Universities would still have a home, however, each institution would be able to specialize and improve in their own areas, rather than spreading resources far too thin across the entire University. The other 800-lbs gorilla is the Athletics Departments at both which run between $15M-$20M in the red every year while $5M cuts are made to the University operating budget as a whole.

I could easily see the same regional education system coming up quickly in NE Ohio with Cleveland State and Akron having similarly terrible past few years financially and Kent State expanding unsustainably in all areas. Hell our previous governor definitely laid down the foundation for this to happen by running state audits on redundant programs and departments a few years back. That was the first bell, and I could easily see the clock striking midnight here soon, as there is no way the state would want to shutter Universities completely due to the optics, however, developing regional institutions could make the entire educational environment in the state far more competitive nationally by removing competition regionally and allowing Universities to truly focus on what they're good at rather than trying to do everything and doing most of those things average at best.

To exemplify what I'm talking about...roughly 19% of the UT Academic Affairs portion of the University Operating budget is eaten up by the two Colleges I mentioned above. Those two Colleges only house roughly 10% of the undergraduate population of the University. If you eliminate those two Colleges, you have a pretty significant net cost savings. Truthfully, the University is only holding onto some programs, departments, and even colleges in order to meet classifications for certain certifications (Carnegie Research Class system, Comprehensive University classification, etc.) which truly have no merit on 99% of the undergrads who attend, which is where a bulk of a Universitiy's revenue resides.

Athletics dept is a non-talking issue as far as merging of state universities. It's simply not pertinent. Almost none of the rest I feel holds water. Point by point or the short?

The short

I did mention, the costs of Administration. But that won't save anyone from what's coming. It's a drop in the bucket. Neither would a merger of state colleges.

It is historical individuality that brings in the non-public money. The free money. The money that attracts customers. No one wants to risk that endowment growth by changing the names and identities and personal opinion, that loss of diversity would weaken the system. Downsizing is the only thing but the schools are meeting their construction pork requirements by building, building, building. And then there's the tenure issue....

Competition breeds success. How about instead of caving to it, UT get better at it? Smaller and more efficient campuses run by a bit less good ol "boys" handing money to friends and increasing efficiencies is what works as the first step. Putting the moneis where they can grow is another step.

I've brought it up nearly everytime this topic comes around, but back to my alma. Rather than bullet point, I'll let you read. Do note that almost none of what is in this letter is extolling the education but rather a very rich man, extolling how the University has made itself more accesible and has downsized student debt.

Bringing the idea of these initiatives early to locals, fell on deaf ears. I think maybe just too many short sighted good ol boys, running the show to their own benefit. But then, maybe it's all fake? I'm always paranoid enough to presume that could be true.

https://www.purdue.edu/president/documen...Letter.pdf
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2020 05:45 PM by eastisbest.)
01-13-2020 05:23 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


DetroitRocket Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,821
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 13
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #12
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 04:01 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 03:10 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 03:00 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 02:27 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  There is a reckoning coming, myself and PaulJ have been talking about it for awhile on here. Their numbers are almost exactly the same as our as far as enrollment decreases are concerned...but they all receive quite a bit more in SSI Money from the state of Michigan. More and more people are becoming privy to the issues...and honestly, there isn't a correction that doesn't hurt institutions A LOT (ie cutting complete colleges from the operation).

Not saying this will ever happen or be feasible, state institutions with a close proximity (UT/bgsu or Akron/Kent State) could merge...

Any idea where the savings would be? Some in high Admin (one Pres) but besides the look factor, that's a drop in the bucket of the budget. Looking for comparable relationships, Ohio St - Ohio St Lima is operated by a Dean. We could give BGSU a Dean but what to call them as a facility? University of Toledo Flatlands?

The value and savings is in creating one larger institution or educational consortium (BGSU/UT merge in Northwest Ohio University) and each campus eliminates the dead weight colleges that drain their budgets. Removing competition from the equation, thus allowing the prosperous colleges at each to thrive as they don't need to worry about regional competition. The clear areas here would be UT losing its Colleges of Education and Arts and Letters and BGSU losing its Colleges of Engineering and Health Sciences...even more dramatically, UT and BGSU merging into three campuses, a Liberal Arts campus (BG), a Science and Technology campus (UToledo), and a Health Sciences and Medical campus (UTMC), with the other campuses dropping all but the essential facilities, faculty, and staff. In that situation, every student currently enrolled at the Universities would still have a home, however, each institution would be able to specialize and improve in their own areas, rather than spreading resources far too thin across the entire University. The other 800-lbs gorilla is the Athletics Departments at both which run between $15M-$20M in the red every year while $5M cuts are made to the University operating budget as a whole.

I could easily see the same regional education system coming up quickly in NE Ohio with Cleveland State and Akron having similarly terrible past few years financially and Kent State expanding unsustainably in all areas. Hell our previous governor definitely laid down the foundation for this to happen by running state audits on redundant programs and departments a few years back. That was the first bell, and I could easily see the clock striking midnight here soon, as there is no way the state would want to shutter Universities completely due to the optics, however, developing regional institutions could make the entire educational environment in the state far more competitive nationally by removing competition regionally and allowing Universities to truly focus on what they're good at rather than trying to do everything and doing most of those things average at best.

To exemplify what I'm talking about...roughly 19% of the UT Academic Affairs portion of the University Operating budget is eaten up by the two Colleges I mentioned above. Those two Colleges only house roughly 10% of the undergraduate population of the University. If you eliminate those two Colleges, you have a pretty significant net cost savings. Truthfully, the University is only holding onto some programs, departments, and even colleges in order to meet classifications for certain certifications (Carnegie Research Class system, Comprehensive University classification, etc.) which truly have no merit on 99% of the undergrads who attend, which is where a bulk of a Universitiy's revenue resides.

BG does NOT have a college of engineering.
01-13-2020 07:38 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
FMRocket Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,816
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 16
I Root For: UT Blue & Gold
Location: Perrysburg, Ohio
Post: #13
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 07:38 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 04:01 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 03:10 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 03:00 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 02:27 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  There is a reckoning coming, myself and PaulJ have been talking about it for awhile on here. Their numbers are almost exactly the same as our as far as enrollment decreases are concerned...but they all receive quite a bit more in SSI Money from the state of Michigan. More and more people are becoming privy to the issues...and honestly, there isn't a correction that doesn't hurt institutions A LOT (ie cutting complete colleges from the operation).

Not saying this will ever happen or be feasible, state institutions with a close proximity (UT/bgsu or Akron/Kent State) could merge...

Any idea where the savings would be? Some in high Admin (one Pres) but besides the look factor, that's a drop in the bucket of the budget. Looking for comparable relationships, Ohio St - Ohio St Lima is operated by a Dean. We could give BGSU a Dean but what to call them as a facility? University of Toledo Flatlands?

The value and savings is in creating one larger institution or educational consortium (BGSU/UT merge in Northwest Ohio University) and each campus eliminates the dead weight colleges that drain their budgets. Removing competition from the equation, thus allowing the prosperous colleges at each to thrive as they don't need to worry about regional competition. The clear areas here would be UT losing its Colleges of Education and Arts and Letters and BGSU losing its Colleges of Engineering and Health Sciences...even more dramatically, UT and BGSU merging into three campuses, a Liberal Arts campus (BG), a Science and Technology campus (UToledo), and a Health Sciences and Medical campus (UTMC), with the other campuses dropping all but the essential facilities, faculty, and staff. In that situation, every student currently enrolled at the Universities would still have a home, however, each institution would be able to specialize and improve in their own areas, rather than spreading resources far too thin across the entire University. The other 800-lbs gorilla is the Athletics Departments at both which run between $15M-$20M in the red every year while $5M cuts are made to the University operating budget as a whole.

I could easily see the same regional education system coming up quickly in NE Ohio with Cleveland State and Akron having similarly terrible past few years financially and Kent State expanding unsustainably in all areas. Hell our previous governor definitely laid down the foundation for this to happen by running state audits on redundant programs and departments a few years back. That was the first bell, and I could easily see the clock striking midnight here soon, as there is no way the state would want to shutter Universities completely due to the optics, however, developing regional institutions could make the entire educational environment in the state far more competitive nationally by removing competition regionally and allowing Universities to truly focus on what they're good at rather than trying to do everything and doing most of those things average at best.

To exemplify what I'm talking about...roughly 19% of the UT Academic Affairs portion of the University Operating budget is eaten up by the two Colleges I mentioned above. Those two Colleges only house roughly 10% of the undergraduate population of the University. If you eliminate those two Colleges, you have a pretty significant net cost savings. Truthfully, the University is only holding onto some programs, departments, and even colleges in order to meet classifications for certain certifications (Carnegie Research Class system, Comprehensive University classification, etc.) which truly have no merit on 99% of the undergrads who attend, which is where a bulk of a Universitiy's revenue resides.

BG does NOT have a college of engineering.

But they do offer tractor maintainance...04-cheers
01-13-2020 08:30 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BearcatMan Online
Kicking Connoisseur/Occasional Man Crush
*

Posts: 14,871
Joined: Jan 2009
Reputation: 239
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #14
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 07:38 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  BG does NOT have a college of engineering.

While you're TECHNICALLY correct in that they do not have an accredited Engineering School...you best believe that is their intent with the expansion of their programs within CTAE and the renovation of their facilities.

https://www.bgsu.edu/technology-architec...ering.html

https://www.bgfalconmedia.com/campus/tec...a70ad.html

They tried it with Nursing and the State shot it down, one can only hope the State realizes the stupidity of this venture and does the same.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2020 10:44 PM by BearcatMan.)
01-13-2020 10:34 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BearcatMan Online
Kicking Connoisseur/Occasional Man Crush
*

Posts: 14,871
Joined: Jan 2009
Reputation: 239
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #15
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 05:23 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  Competition breeds success. How about instead of caving to it, UT get better at it? Smaller and more efficient campuses run by a bit less good ol "boys" handing money to friends and increasing efficiencies is what works as the first step. Putting the moneis where they can grow is another step.

While we definitely have a fundamental difference of opinion on higher education that has been fleshed out quite a bit on here and which I respect...this point has been contested quite a bit recently by many inside and outside of education with similar outcomes.

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/jus...-higher-ed

The crux of the issue is that education generally deals with limited resources. Limited finances, limited intelligence, limited number of students, limitations of technology, policy, and economics in general. The truth of the matter is that those limitations hit smaller, less prestigious (but equally important) institutions harder, and UT is one of them. There is absolutely no reason why a University the size of ours should be attempting to compete with everyone, because we WILL lose every one of those battles...our future is in specialization rather than generalization, and when I say "our" I'm referring to academia as a whole, not just UT. I respect your opinion on most everything, but this is just something we will never agree upon, my many years of experience within higher ed learning, working, teaching, and researching at both the haves and the have nots has shown me one thing, and your experience has shown you another.
01-13-2020 10:43 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
DetroitRocket Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,821
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 13
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #16
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 10:34 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 07:38 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  BG does NOT have a college of engineering.

While you're TECHNICALLY correct in that they do not have an accredited Engineering School...you best believe that is their intent with the expansion of their programs within CTAE and the renovation of their facilities.

https://www.bgsu.edu/technology-architec...ering.html

https://www.bgfalconmedia.com/campus/tec...a70ad.html

They tried it with Nursing and the State shot it down, one can only hope the State realizes the stupidity of this venture and does the same.

BG has no PhD programs besides a Technology Management program with engineering powerhouse Indiana State. UT has robust PhD programs including highly desired areas of Bioengineering, Biomedical Engineering and Computer Science and Engineering.
01-14-2020 06:42 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


BearcatMan Online
Kicking Connoisseur/Occasional Man Crush
*

Posts: 14,871
Joined: Jan 2009
Reputation: 239
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #17
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-14-2020 06:42 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 10:34 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 07:38 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  BG does NOT have a college of engineering.

While you're TECHNICALLY correct in that they do not have an accredited Engineering School...you best believe that is their intent with the expansion of their programs within CTAE and the renovation of their facilities.

https://www.bgsu.edu/technology-architec...ering.html

https://www.bgfalconmedia.com/campus/tec...a70ad.html

They tried it with Nursing and the State shot it down, one can only hope the State realizes the stupidity of this venture and does the same.

BG has no PhD programs besides a Technology Management program with engineering powerhouse Indiana State. UT has robust PhD programs including highly desired areas of Bioengineering, Biomedical Engineering and Computer Science and Engineering.

Ok? There are many strong Engineering Schools that do not have PhD programs (including the institution where the current Dean of our College of Engineering was formerly employed and is an alumni of). Not sure why that is of significant import in this discussion.
01-14-2020 07:40 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
eastisbest Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 10,148
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 35
I Root For: Toledo
Location:
Post: #18
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-14-2020 07:40 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 06:42 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 10:34 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 07:38 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  BG does NOT have a college of engineering.

While you're TECHNICALLY correct in that they do not have an accredited Engineering School...you best believe that is their intent with the expansion of their programs within CTAE and the renovation of their facilities.

https://www.bgsu.edu/technology-architec...ering.html

https://www.bgfalconmedia.com/campus/tec...a70ad.html

They tried it with Nursing and the State shot it down, one can only hope the State realizes the stupidity of this venture and does the same.

BG has no PhD programs besides a Technology Management program with engineering powerhouse Indiana State. UT has robust PhD programs including highly desired areas of Bioengineering, Biomedical Engineering and Computer Science and Engineering.

Ok? There are many strong Engineering Schools that do not have PhD programs (including the institution where the current Dean of our College of Engineering was formerly employed and is an alumni of). Not sure why that is of significant import in this discussion.

scratches head

You said they had a College of Engineering and he was making a correction. Your error flaws your argument. Correct the error and make your merger case based upon the correction, my suggesiton.

BTW: College of Education is a clear money maker due to state and local requirements. No one is going to give that up in a merger. And it's hardly monolithic. One might have a great Liberal Ed Dept and the other be stronger in the Sciences Ed, just a suppositional example. Same goes for almost any two institutions and any two colleges. People have to relocate to places they never intended to be. You'll risk losing your best to neither institution.

I don't think your idea of merger into one institution has any legs or any potential positive outcome. It would weaken both institutions in a way they may not recover. That would hit the state, hard.
01-14-2020 08:34 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BearcatMan Online
Kicking Connoisseur/Occasional Man Crush
*

Posts: 14,871
Joined: Jan 2009
Reputation: 239
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #19
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-14-2020 08:34 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 07:40 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 06:42 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 10:34 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 07:38 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  BG does NOT have a college of engineering.

While you're TECHNICALLY correct in that they do not have an accredited Engineering School...you best believe that is their intent with the expansion of their programs within CTAE and the renovation of their facilities.

https://www.bgsu.edu/technology-architec...ering.html

https://www.bgfalconmedia.com/campus/tec...a70ad.html

They tried it with Nursing and the State shot it down, one can only hope the State realizes the stupidity of this venture and does the same.

BG has no PhD programs besides a Technology Management program with engineering powerhouse Indiana State. UT has robust PhD programs including highly desired areas of Bioengineering, Biomedical Engineering and Computer Science and Engineering.

Ok? There are many strong Engineering Schools that do not have PhD programs (including the institution where the current Dean of our College of Engineering was formerly employed and is an alumni of). Not sure why that is of significant import in this discussion.

scratches head

You said they had a College of Engineering and he was making a correction. Your error flaws your argument. Correct the error and make your merger case based upon the correction, my suggesiton.

BTW: College of Education is a clear money maker due to state and local requirements. No one is going to give that up in a merger. And it's hardly monolithic. One might have a great Liberal Ed Dept and the other be stronger in the Sciences Ed, just a suppositional example. Same goes for almost any two institutions and any two colleges. People have to relocate to places they never intended to be. You'll risk losing your best to neither institution.

I don't think your idea of merger into one institution has any legs or any potential positive outcome. It would weaken both institutions in a way they may not recover. That would hit the state, hard.

Not having graduate degree programs does not preclude a College from being a College, you of all people should know that. I was simply asking why that was an important part of the discussion about BGSU having a College of Technology and Applied Engineering and their plan to expand their programs and operations in a geographical area that is already tapped out in the Engineering sector. It's also why the question needs to be asked about them expanding it to begin with, which is where my discussion started. Hell, I think we're all agreeing here that BGSU does not need to, nor should they, expand their engineering operations in lieu of funding other programs more significantly. The same can be said for some of our own programs, which are being lapped by theirs down south. You both are quite literally explaining WHY educational streamlining and efficiency studies are happening, and that's the main foundational point of my argument for it to be done between these two institutions.

I think the only counter argument to your last point is that should we continue down the same path (which is what it currently looks like both institutions will do), would you prefer a nearly assured slow death/hamstringing for both or try something new that could have the potential to drastically improve the overall environment with the small, albeit still possible, chance that the institutions go away? However, as I've said before, we clearly have a fundamental difference of thought here, so I don't think it's worth perpetuating an argument seeing as how we'll both end up with concussions beating our heads against that wall 04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2020 08:53 AM by BearcatMan.)
01-14-2020 08:43 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
indianasniff Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,622
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 7
I Root For: Toledo
Location:
Post: #20
RE: WMU,CMU Face Enrollment Declines
(01-13-2020 05:23 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 04:01 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 03:10 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  Any idea where the savings would be? Some in high Admin (one Pres) but besides the look factor, that's a drop in the bucket of the budget. Looking for comparable relationships, Ohio St - Ohio St Lima is operated by a Dean. We could give BGSU a Dean but what to call them as a facility? University of Toledo Flatlands?

The value and savings is in creating one larger institution or educational consortium (BGSU/UT merge in Northwest Ohio University) and each campus eliminates the dead weight colleges that drain their budgets. Removing competition from the equation, thus allowing the prosperous colleges at each to thrive as they don't need to worry about regional competition. The clear areas here would be UT losing its Colleges of Education and Arts and Letters and BGSU losing its Colleges of Engineering and Health Sciences...even more dramatically, UT and BGSU merging into three campuses, a Liberal Arts campus (BG), a Science and Technology campus (UToledo), and a Health Sciences and Medical campus (UTMC), with the other campuses dropping all but the essential facilities, faculty, and staff. In that situation, every student currently enrolled at the Universities would still have a home, however, each institution would be able to specialize and improve in their own areas, rather than spreading resources far too thin across the entire University. The other 800-lbs gorilla is the Athletics Departments at both which run between $15M-$20M in the red every year while $5M cuts are made to the University operating budget as a whole.

I could easily see the same regional education system coming up quickly in NE Ohio with Cleveland State and Akron having similarly terrible past few years financially and Kent State expanding unsustainably in all areas. Hell our previous governor definitely laid down the foundation for this to happen by running state audits on redundant programs and departments a few years back. That was the first bell, and I could easily see the clock striking midnight here soon, as there is no way the state would want to shutter Universities completely due to the optics, however, developing regional institutions could make the entire educational environment in the state far more competitive nationally by removing competition regionally and allowing Universities to truly focus on what they're good at rather than trying to do everything and doing most of those things average at best.

To exemplify what I'm talking about...roughly 19% of the UT Academic Affairs portion of the University Operating budget is eaten up by the two Colleges I mentioned above. Those two Colleges only house roughly 10% of the undergraduate population of the University. If you eliminate those two Colleges, you have a pretty significant net cost savings. Truthfully, the University is only holding onto some programs, departments, and even colleges in order to meet classifications for certain certifications (Carnegie Research Class system, Comprehensive University classification, etc.) which truly have no merit on 99% of the undergrads who attend, which is where a bulk of a Universitiy's revenue resides.

Athletics dept is a non-talking issue as far as merging of state universities. It's simply not pertinent. Almost none of the rest I feel holds water. Point by point or the short?

The short

I did mention, the costs of Administration. But that won't save anyone from what's coming. It's a drop in the bucket. Neither would a merger of state colleges.

It is historical individuality that brings in the non-public money. The free money. The money that attracts customers. No one wants to risk that endowment growth by changing the names and identities and personal opinion, that loss of diversity would weaken the system. Downsizing is the only thing but the schools are meeting their construction pork requirements by building, building, building. And then there's the tenure issue....

Competition breeds success. How about instead of caving to it, UT get better at it? Smaller and more efficient campuses run by a bit less good ol "boys" handing money to friends and increasing efficiencies is what works as the first step. Putting the moneis where they can grow is another step.

I've brought it up nearly everytime this topic comes around, but back to my alma. Rather than bullet point, I'll let you read. Do note that almost none of what is in this letter is extolling the education but rather a very rich man, extolling how the University has made itself more accesible and has downsized student debt.

Bringing the idea of these initiatives early to locals, fell on deaf ears. I think maybe just too many short sighted good ol boys, running the show to their own benefit. But then, maybe it's all fake? I'm always paranoid enough to presume that could be true.

https://www.purdue.edu/president/documen...Letter.pdf

The things that Mitch Daniels is doing at Purdue are amazing. Sure they have a bit of an advantage to start with but he puts programs in place to solve problems, not sit on his hands and wait for things to happen.

https://www.admissions.purdue.edu/costsa...onfees.php
Flat tuition since 2012 Tuition and Fees $9,992

https://www.utoledo.edu/admission/freshm...ition.html
UT Tuition and fees $10,514

Son at Purdue. Daughter will find out tomorrow if she is admitted. But she is at least considering UT.
01-14-2020 09:22 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2020 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2020 MyBB Group.