I'll take using 2 backs equally (w/ a third getting lesser carries) over one back all day long. I wouldn't want to wait till the 4th quarter of games next year to feature Palmer. But no way I'm featuring Palmer and only giving Obese and Hamilton small roles. That said, I'm not committing Palmer to 3rd back. Let the best backs earn their carries in Spring and Summer camp.

Banks & Fenner w/ Hines spelling them. I remember that well.

(01-18-2020 10:10 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  Teams with one featured RB tend to lose when all the marbles are on the line. Teams with one featured RB are easier to plan defenses for. A balanced attack makes more sense.

Well, then, explain how the nation's #1 rush D couldn't "plan" on Lance ripping our hearts out.

Both Lance and Latrele averaged 5.5 YPC. The difference in the game was Lance had 30 carries (read: feature back) and Latrele had 8. I don't recall a designed run by Nooch. He should have had a dozen, which would likely have made Latrele's YPC closer to 10 if he had been our feature back. Not running Nooch was another mistake.

I feel confident that our coaching staff has already gone over and over the game film and come to the same conclusions. They are a smart and experienced bunch. They just weren't ready for Entz risking it all and couldn't adjust. They will learn from this and hopefully have a ringer transfer or two in the wings who will help us get back to Frisco. I checked the portal last night and there are still a bunch of very good ones who have not decided where they will finish their collegiate football careers.

Bolton was RB3, Hines was Vanhorse (#4)

Yeah, we are rich at the RB position, but we risk a couple of things not having one feature back and making that feature back Latrele. I can see a 50/50 split between two backs, but I would make it more like 60/40 or 65/35, just enough to keep the defense guessing, and definitely give Latrele the majority of the carries.

Secondly, we stand a chance of losing Latrele if he can't get the carries he wants. We aren't the only ones who know how good Latrele is. He knows it too, and I doubt he will be happy sharing the stage with backs he knows he is much superior to.

Check out the box score and see the ridiculous ypc of smelly Bisons running backs not named Lance. That was all set up using Lance as a feature back.

(01-18-2020 10:44 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Bolton was RB3, Hines was Vanhorse (#4)

I loved Bolton. Despite his size, he was fearless and could fly. Great fun to watch him punk defenders who only saw a blur going past them towards the endzone.

(01-18-2020 05:31 PM)JMaddy Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 02:58 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  Cignetti said in the post game presser after the game that the biggest challenge with Palmer all season was keeping him out there healthy. As punishing as he is, it sounds like he took it as well. That's the reason they waited to put him in in the second half when our O-Line was wearing teams down and we ran him in as a fresh back. He's got a bright future for sure. As usual, we'll have a great situation at RB next year. That position is the least of concern.

Latrele had injury issues in HS, which is part of why his HS coach said he didn't get a lot of offers.

https://n.rivals.com/news/dukes-rb-commi...acks-punch

It is also why it is probably better to not make him a feature back....yet. Let him get stronger and fully healthy first.

I fully agree. If Latrele has health issues, that changes everything. I certainly didn't see any visible evidence of health issues in Frisco. But, it is the one factor that could excuse our coaches not employing his tremendous ability in the national championship.

I recall for the past two years how we all anticipated Percy taking over the reins of the #1 RB position. Now, he is overshadowed or at least equaled by a handful of very talented underclassmen, the most talented of which is clearly Latrele Palmer. Do we punish Latrele by giving other running backs carries that should be his?

Good coaches play their best players.

(01-18-2020 10:44 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Bolton was RB3, Hines was Vanhorse (#4)

Negative Hyper. Hines was the 3rd back. Bolton was 4th. He (Bolton) played in the VMI game when Fenner got injured and actually had a 100 yard game himself. Banks had already broken his leg by then.

(01-18-2020 11:18 PM)olddawg Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 10:44 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Bolton was RB3, Hines was Vanhorse (#4)

Negative Hyper. Hines was 3rd back. Bolton was 4th. He (Bolton) got the start in the VMI game when the top 3 were injured and actually had a 100 yard game himself.

I remember that game. I was there and it was a ton of fun watching Bolton get around the corner and streak down the field for huge gains.

I was wrong about the top 3 being injured before the VMI game. Maurice got hurt during the game. Ran upstairs to get the "Midnight in Chattanooga" book to clarify. But Bolton was featured heavily and did get 103 that game, with Hines getting 111.

Hines finished the year w/ 1038 yds
Bolton had 164 for the year
Banks had 524
Fenner had 858

(01-18-2020 11:00 PM)Purple Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 05:31 PM)JMaddy Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 02:58 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  Cignetti said in the post game presser after the game that the biggest challenge with Palmer all season was keeping him out there healthy. As punishing as he is, it sounds like he took it as well. That's the reason they waited to put him in in the second half when our O-Line was wearing teams down and we ran him in as a fresh back. He's got a bright future for sure. As usual, we'll have a great situation at RB next year. That position is the least of concern.

Latrele had injury issues in HS, which is part of why his HS coach said he didn't get a lot of offers.

https://n.rivals.com/news/dukes-rb-commi...acks-punch

It is also why it is probably better to not make him a feature back....yet. Let him get stronger and fully healthy first.

I fully agree. If Latrele has health issues, that changes everything. I certainly didn't see any visible evidence of health issues in Frisco. But, it is the one factor that could excuse our coaches not employing his tremendous ability in the national championship.

I recall for the past two years how we all anticipated Percy taking over the reins of the #1 RB position. Now, he is overshadowed or at least equaled by a handful of very talented underclassmen, the most talented of which is clearly Latrele Palmer. Do we punish Latrele by giving other running backs carries that should be his?

Good coaches play their best players.

Percy is now “overshadowed” by underclassmen? After Percy just posted a 1000+ yard season? I don’t think so. Those looming “shadows” are talented young RBs to be sure, but they’re not casting shade on Percy’s talent or productivity. Percy’s earned his carries, and Latrell Palmer will earn his. No one is being punished, or having their carries stolen.

(01-18-2020 11:32 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 11:00 PM)Purple Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 05:31 PM)JMaddy Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 02:58 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  Cignetti said in the post game presser after the game that the biggest challenge with Palmer all season was keeping him out there healthy. As punishing as he is, it sounds like he took it as well. That's the reason they waited to put him in in the second half when our O-Line was wearing teams down and we ran him in as a fresh back. He's got a bright future for sure. As usual, we'll have a great situation at RB next year. That position is the least of concern.

Latrele had injury issues in HS, which is part of why his HS coach said he didn't get a lot of offers.

https://n.rivals.com/news/dukes-rb-commi...acks-punch

It is also why it is probably better to not make him a feature back....yet. Let him get stronger and fully healthy first.

I fully agree. If Latrele has health issues, that changes everything. I certainly didn't see any visible evidence of health issues in Frisco. But, it is the one factor that could excuse our coaches not employing his tremendous ability in the national championship.

I recall for the past two years how we all anticipated Percy taking over the reins of the #1 RB position. Now, he is overshadowed or at least equaled by a handful of very talented underclassmen, the most talented of which is clearly Latrele Palmer. Do we punish Latrele by giving other running backs carries that should be his?

Good coaches play their best players.

Percy is now “overshadowed” by underclassmen? After Percy just posted a 1000+ yard season? I don’t think so. Those looming “shadows” are talented young RBs to be sure, but they’re not casting shade on Percy’s talent or productivity. Percy’s earned his carries, and Latrell Palmer will earn his. No one is being punished, or having their carries stolen.

Point taken. But, the best RB we have is Latrele. Keeping him in a reserve role only hurts the team.

(01-18-2020 10:02 PM)Purple Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 05:18 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  

(01-17-2020 09:53 PM)Purple Wrote:  Feature back. 20 to 30 carries a game. Anything less is inexcusable and counter to winning.

No its not. Completely unnecessary if you have multiple stud backs and a 15-16 game season. Now if a couple of JMU’s 4 stud RBs go down to injury, then yeah, by all means.

Elon tried that with Summers in 2017 and 2018. Both seasons were giving him 25-30 carries a game, 1 or both he was leading the nation in rushing (when he got injured), and both seasons he didn‘t make it to the halfway point before going down to season ending injury.

Add on the fact that for 7 to 8 of the 11 regular season games, and likely at least the 2nd round (round of 16 playoff game), JMU will win comfortably no which of the 4 backs is in there for however many carries.

If Trey Lance had been carrying the ball 30x a game every game like he did vs JMU, JMU wouldn’t have been facing Lance in the NC game.

You are making my point for me. NDSU used Lance as much as they needed to all season. Against us, that meant 30 carries. They had no problem with it. Right in our face, NDSU used Lance's running ability, which kept our D so off balance and concentrating on Lance's running ability that the field was wide open for opportunities by running backs who torched us. Our vaunted rush D was humiliated. NDSU averaged 6.2 yards per tote on 45 carries for an embarrassing 281 yards. Not exactly like JMU, right? Coaching! A rookie outcoached our seasoned vet.

We bottled Latrele's running ability for reasons unknown. His and Lance's ypc was an identical 5.5. Yet, we gave our durable stud RB about 1/4th the carries Entz gave his quarterback. Coaching!

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Frisco was our last game of the season. Why were we holding anything back? Entz wasn't. Instead of using our two most lethal weapons, Latrele's and Nooch's running ability, our coaches decided it would be better to lose than to employ our greatest strengths.... for whatever reason.

By the way, I am opposed on principle to the "running back by committee" thing. One feature back creates a chemistry and rhythm with the offense, something not developed using half a dozen RBs in a game, not to mention the confidence a feature back gains knowing he is da' man.

I agree on giving Palmer more carries during the NC game.

JMU never used a 1/2 doz RBs in a game. Outside of garbage time, it was usually 2, sometimes 3. Remember Van Horse got hurt during the regular season, and missed a # of games, and Palmer was hurt during training camp and again during the regular season (and apparently was was hurt in HS), so there’s nothing to indicate yet that he has the durability to carry the ball 20+X a game for 15 games.

Nothing wrong with RB by committee for most games if your committee has multiple very talented backs. RB by committee isn‘t the same as QB by committee. Complete apples to oranges.

If 3 of the top backs are healthy, much less all 4, you’re not going to see one avg “20 to 30 carries a game”. And for at least 5 or 6 of the CAA games, and at least Merrimack OOC, it won’t be necessary.

(01-18-2020 10:02 PM)Purple Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 05:18 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  

(01-17-2020 09:53 PM)Purple Wrote:  Feature back. 20 to 30 carries a game. Anything less is inexcusable and counter to winning.

No its not. Completely unnecessary if you have multiple stud backs and a 15-16 game season. Now if a couple of JMU’s 4 stud RBs go down to injury, then yeah, by all means.

Elon tried that with Summers in 2017 and 2018. Both seasons were giving him 25-30 carries a game, 1 or both he was leading the nation in rushing (when he got injured), and both seasons he didn‘t make it to the halfway point before going down to season ending injury.

Add on the fact that for 7 to 8 of the 11 regular season games, and likely at least the 2nd round (round of 16 playoff game), JMU will win comfortably no which of the 4 backs is in there for however many carries.

If Trey Lance had been carrying the ball 30x a game every game like he did vs JMU, JMU wouldn’t have been facing Lance in the NC game.

You are making my point for me. NDSU used Lance as much as they needed to all season. Against us, that meant 30 carries. They had no problem with it. Right in our face, NDSU used Lance's running ability, which kept our D so off balance and concentrating on Lance's running ability that the field was wide open for opportunities by running backs who torched us. Our vaunted rush D was humiliated. NDSU averaged 6.2 yards per tote on 45 carries for an embarrassing 281 yards. Not exactly like JMU, right? Coaching! A rookie outcoached our seasoned vet.

We bottled Latrele's running ability for reasons unknown. His and Lance's ypc was an identical 5.5. Yet, we gave our durable stud RB about 1/4th the carries Entz gave his quarterback. Coaching!

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Frisco was our last game of the season. Why were we holding anything back? Entz wasn't. Instead of using our two most lethal weapons, Latrele's and Nooch's running ability, our coaches decided it would be better to lose than to employ our greatest strengths.... for whatever reason.

By the way, I am opposed on principle to the "running back by committee" thing. One feature back creates a chemistry and rhythm with the offense, something not developed using half a dozen RBs in a game, not to mention the confidence a feature back gains knowing he is da' man.

Did you watch any NDSU games other then the NC? Lance ran when needed but his running was never their focal point. Their fans have complained all season about not using his abilities enough. And yes part Lance's success was good coaching by Entz but the bigger part was poor coaching and tackling by JMU. There were multiple opportunities to take him down in the backfield that turned into long runs. There were also multiple times where Lance dropped back and there was absolutely no one in the middle of the defense

Also if you've paid any attention to the RB room this year, they are a family and feed off each other as theyve said all season long. Including how they like not being banged up come playoff time. Giving another defense more to prepare for is never a bad thing

Still wondering how you think Palmer goes from a handful of carries this season leading to him getting injured a few times and eventually surgery to "give it to him 30 times a game he wont wear down!"

(01-18-2020 11:27 PM)olddawg Wrote:  I was wrong about the top 3 being injured before the VMI game. Maurice got hurt during the game. Ran upstairs to get the "Midnight in Chattanooga" book to clarify. But Bolton was featured heavily and did get 103 that game, with Hines getting 111.

Hines finished the year w/ 1038 yds
Bolton had 164 for the year
Banks had 524
Fenner had 858

Interesting. I remember Alvin & Maurice were clearly 1a & 1b because they were my neighbors. Thought Antoine got more carries that season than Ray. Either way, it was a good thing we had all 4!

Big Mo!

(01-18-2020 10:44 PM)Purple Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 10:10 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  Teams with one featured RB tend to lose when all the marbles are on the line. Teams with one featured RB are easier to plan defenses for. A balanced attack makes more sense.

Well, then, explain how the nation's #1 rush D couldn't "plan" on Lance ripping our hearts out.

Both Lance and Latrele averaged 5.5 YPC. The difference in the game was Lance had 30 carries (read: feature back) and Latrele had 8. I don't recall a designed run by Nooch. He should have had a dozen, which would likely have made Latrele's YPC closer to 10 if he had been our feature back. Not running Nooch was another mistake.

I’d guess more of his yards came on plays when he found nobody open and was being chased. He got hammered on many of his designed runs. Their pass game was non-existent outside of 2 badly thrown deep balls that led to PI calls. Their burner of a WR everyone was worried about was AWOL outside of being shut down for -12 on a reverse (one that they couldn’t spring with a hold). Goes back to being “out coached” which I’m not buying. They had no game plan, they had a couple gimmick plays that worked, while ours didn’t.

Much is said of YPC. Just because a player averages X yards in a game or season means they’ll always get you X yards every play every game. While he runs hard, he got many yards because how and when we used him. If he’s getting 8.5 late in the game when everyone is gassed doesn’t mean he’ll get 8.5 yards all game and with 30 carries should have 255 for the game every game. It’s like a QB hitting the TE or slot for 10 yards at a clip against a prevent defense and saying they should get that all game every game.

(01-18-2020 11:32 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  Percy is now “overshadowed” by underclassmen? After Percy just posted a 1000+ yard season? I don’t think so. Those looming “shadows” are talented young RBs to be sure, but they’re not casting shade on Percy’s talent or productivity. Percy’s earned his carries, and Latrell Palmer will earn his. No one is being punished, or having their carries stolen.

Exactly, some guy named Wentz sat 3 years before getting a chance to play and ended up being drafted 2nd overall. He sat and paid his dues, at least with a RB you can still rotate in. He’ll get his carries next year and then be the focus back the 2 years after when Percy and Hamilton have moved on and we need him more. Run him into the ground this year and next and he’ll be broken down by his junior and senior years - hell, he was banged up and injured this year in limited action.

We still have Douglas and Jackson each with 4 years of eligibility. I'm kind of expecting someone to run out of patience and leave. It won't hurt us much. I'm pretty confident we could backfill it. JMU is RB U of the FCS. We never seem to have an issue bringing in good talent at that position.

(01-18-2020 10:22 PM)Purple Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 05:53 PM)fishingduke12 Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 02:52 PM)Purple Wrote:  

(01-18-2020 07:11 AM)fishingduke12 Wrote:  

(01-17-2020 09:53 PM)Purple Wrote:  Feature back. 20 to 30 carries a game. Anything less is inexcusable and counter to winning.

20-30 carries will wear him down especially if we want him for the next three years. I'd rather just use him throughout the game instead of just the 4th. We should be blowing out conference opponents regardless so why tire the kid out?

He won't be worn out by 20 carries. Gee whiz, he isn't 5'5/160 pounds. Latrele dishes out the punishment, not the defender.

My point is that not using him as much as we can (and we could have used him a lot more in Frisco) is not smart.

Using your argument, maybe 8 carries are too many. Maybe we should preserve Latrele by only allowing him 4 carries, and all of those during the last two minutes of the game, or maybe just one carry on the last play of the game.

When you have one RB on the team who can get you a first down every other carry, do you allow your team to go into the locker room at halftime down 21-10?

No! Use him! Latrele and the Duke Nation will be glad you did.

We don't have to preserve his talent like it is precious gold or something. Use it! There is plenty of it. He will NOT be worn out! He will be having the time of his life and gladly showcasing his ample God-given talent forn the NFL scouts.

Ummm what? I actually said use him throughout the game but rarely did any single back this year go over 20 carries a game and look what happened, everyone was fresh throughout the playoffs. Pretty sure a 19 year old kid getting hit 30 times a game particularly with his physical running style will wear him out. And you need to think of the long term. This kid still has two more years to be the feature back. They arent robots.

Youre arguing about his use in the NC going into half down and i agree that in that particular game the coaches should have used him better but when you have 3 top end running backs you do not run 1 into the ground.

25 to 30 carries in a national championship game is not running a back into the ground unless he isn't built to play the position. But, don't take my word for it, ask Trey Lance who was as fresh as a daisy on his 30th tote of the game, embarrassing the nation's #1 rush D.

How was Lance ‘fresh as a daisy’ on his 30th carry? Did you talk to him? How did he embarrass the nation’s #1 rush defense on his 30th carry when he was stuffed on 4th and 2? The stats indicate he was anything but fresh as a daisy as his carries approached the mid to high 20s.
Lance’s 1st 22 carries went for 138 yds, 6.3 ypc.
Lance’s last 8 carries went for 28 yds, 3.5 ypc.

(01-18-2020 10:31 PM)olddawg Wrote:  I'll take using 2 backs equally (w/ a third getting lesser carries) over one back all day long. I wouldn't want to wait till the 4th quarter of games next year to feature Palmer. But no way I'm featuring Palmer and only giving Obese and Hamilton small roles. That said, I'm not committing Palmer to 3rd back. Let the best backs earn their carries in Spring and Summer camp.

Banks & Fenner w/ Hines spelling them. I remember that well.

Olddawg gets it..