I posted this on the ACC board too:

I read a comment that W&M declined an ACC invite in the 70’s. The only thing I could find was from Lou Holtz’s book: a former president of W&M wanted Holtz to build the football team in order to gain entry as the eighth member. Then that president left and the new guy wanted football deemphasized, so Holtz went to NC State.

Any historians have info on this?

Lol

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(01-13-2020 09:08 AM)esayem Wrote:  I posted this on the ACC board too:

I read a comment that W&M declined an ACC invite in the 70’s. The only thing I could find was from Lou Holtz’s book: a former president of W&M wanted Holtz to build the football team in order to gain entry as the eighth member. Then that president left and the new guy wanted football deemphasized, so Holtz went to NC State.

Any historians have info on this?

I have heard this "rumor" for a long, long time. I believe it to be true. The outgoing president was Davis Paschall and the new president was Thomas Graves.

Hard to say whether the move would have been good or bad. It would unquestionably have been good from an athletic standpoint. However, whether that would have hurt the academic reputation is unknown. ACC membership doesn't seem to have hurt the academic reputations of UVa, Duke, or UNC though.

One thing that has always intrigued me is whether W&M would have had ACC membership when the ACC first formed in 1953 if it had not been for the grade-fudging scandal at W&M that started around 1949 and led to a marked de-emphasis on football. My personal thought is that the "big boys" of the Southern Conference would not have wanted W&M because the Indians were really good in the forties and nobody liked losing to us. UNC wanted a North Carolina-centric league (hence the inclusion of Wake Forest, Duke, and N.C. State) and the largest state schools of the nearby states (UVa, Maryland, South Carolina). So I don't think W&M would have been invited -- but we will never know.

A great book about the history of W&M football is "Goal to Goal: 100 Seasons of Football at William and Mary" by Wilford Kale, Bob Moskowitz, and Charles M. Holloway, published in 1997.

(01-13-2020 09:08 AM)esayem Wrote:  I posted this on the ACC board too:

I read a comment that W&M declined an ACC invite in the 70’s. The only thing I could find was from Lou Holtz’s book: a former president of W&M wanted Holtz to build the football team in order to gain entry as the eighth member. Then that president left and the new guy wanted football deemphasized, so Holtz went to NC State.

Any historians have info on this?

That is correct above. The W&M President then (1971 I think), Paschal, pursued the ACC and had the votes from the other league members, from what has been relayed. At the time, the ACC was down to 7 teams, South Carolina had just pulled out. ESPN wasn't around then so conference decisions were not based on money or markets - they were based on the commonality and local linkage of Universities.

Our new President came in 1972 and decided W&M was better fit toward an Ivy style approach. The move to the ACC would have required a step up in stadium expansion or new construction.

As W&M declined, the ACC added Georgia Tech as the 8th member.

NJ Alum should weigh in any minute.



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(01-13-2020 11:22 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  As W&M declined, the ACC added Georgia Tech as the 8th member.

Yes, all true as I have always heard it. However, Ga. Tech didn't join the ACC until around 1979 or early eighties --- so there was almost a whole decade where the ACC had only those 7 members. Definitely a lost opportunity for W&M, athletically speaking.

It would also be interesting what the college as a whole would look like.

The smallest public P5 school is Mississippi State, with 22k enrolled (Undergrad and grad).

Smallest private P5 is Wake, who are about our size.

It would be tough to be a competitive P5 public school with only 8k students, but I'm not sure I would've attended W&M if we had 25k students.

Louisiana Monroe is the smallest public FBS school, I believe (Air Force is smallest overall, but the service academies are kind of their own thing). They've made 1 bowl game and haven't played in any post season basketball since moving up to the FBS level.

I think if Wake Forest was able to survive the P5 landscape in the ACC, we too would have been able to. Getting in early, we'd would have enjoyed the growth the entire ACC enjoyed through the 70s and 80s. We would have enjoyed the boost in visibility and dollars the ACC has gotten from TV rights and multiple tourney appearances. Do you really think Tech would be UVAs biggest rival if we were both conference mates since 1971? If we were a traditional FBS regional player, do you think Tech would have gotten all of those recruits out of the 757? All fun speculation, but none of these ACC/FBS programs were significantly ahead of where W&M was when the decision to deemphasize was made.

(01-13-2020 11:22 AM)Tribal Wrote:  NJ Alum should weigh in any minute.



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I spoke with AD Huge on Saturday. I told her that, while my friend wants to go Patriot, I want to go ACC.

Oh, this is about the past? Can’t people just move on? (tic).

(01-13-2020 11:39 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  It would also be interesting what the college as a whole would look like.

The smallest public P5 school is Mississippi State, with 22k enrolled (Undergrad and grad).

Smallest private P5 is Wake, who are about our size.

It would be tough to be a competitive P5 public school with only 8k students, but I'm not sure I would've attended W&M if we had 25k students.

Louisiana Monroe is the smallest public FBS school, I believe (Air Force is smallest overall, but the service academies are kind of their own thing). They've made 1 bowl game and haven't played in any post season basketball since moving up to the FBS level.

I think Tulsa is the smallest overall, right? Like 4K total students.

(01-13-2020 01:52 PM)TribeNiner Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 11:39 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  It would also be interesting what the college as a whole would look like.

The smallest public P5 school is Mississippi State, with 22k enrolled (Undergrad and grad).

Smallest private P5 is Wake, who are about our size.

It would be tough to be a competitive P5 public school with only 8k students, but I'm not sure I would've attended W&M if we had 25k students.

Louisiana Monroe is the smallest public FBS school, I believe (Air Force is smallest overall, but the service academies are kind of their own thing). They've made 1 bowl game and haven't played in any post season basketball since moving up to the FBS level.

I think Tulsa is the smallest overall, right? Like 4K total students.

According to google, Air Force is the smallest at 4,300, Tulsa has 4,600. But I believe Tulsa is the smallest non-service academy.

Got ya - thanks for the info. My fault, as I somehow just glossed right over that info in your original post, so I could've saved you the google trouble. I was operating from my phone during lunch, so I'll use that as an excuse.

(01-13-2020 11:13 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 09:08 AM)esayem Wrote:  I posted this on the ACC board too:

I read a comment that W&M declined an ACC invite in the 70’s. The only thing I could find was from Lou Holtz’s book: a former president of W&M wanted Holtz to build the football team in order to gain entry as the eighth member. Then that president left and the new guy wanted football deemphasized, so Holtz went to NC State.

Any historians have info on this?

I have heard this "rumor" for a long, long time. I believe it to be true. The outgoing president was Davis Paschall and the new president was Thomas Graves.

Hard to say whether the move would have been good or bad. It would unquestionably have been good from an athletic standpoint. However, whether that would have hurt the academic reputation is unknown. ACC membership doesn't seem to have hurt the academic reputations of UVa, Duke, or UNC though.

One thing that has always intrigued me is whether W&M would have had ACC membership when the ACC first formed in 1953 if it had not been for the grade-fudging scandal at W&M that started around 1949 and led to a marked de-emphasis on football. My personal thought is that the "big boys" of the Southern Conference would not have wanted W&M because the Indians were really good in the forties and nobody liked losing to us. UNC wanted a North Carolina-centric league (hence the inclusion of Wake Forest, Duke, and N.C. State) and the largest state schools of the nearby states (UVa, Maryland, South Carolina). So I don't think W&M would have been invited -- but we will never know.

A great book about the history of W&M football is "Goal to Goal: 100 Seasons of Football at William and Mary" by Wilford Kale, Bob Moskowitz, and Charles M. Holloway, published in 1997.

I think you are right that the football scandal in the late 40s and the subsequent decision not to expand the stadium in the 70s shut the door to WM and the ACC. Holtz was given a car by the WM
alumni association following the Tangerine Bowl in 1970 and happily drove it to Raleigh.

(01-13-2020 02:04 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 01:52 PM)TribeNiner Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 11:39 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  It would also be interesting what the college as a whole would look like.

The smallest public P5 school is Mississippi State, with 22k enrolled (Undergrad and grad).

Smallest private P5 is Wake, who are about our size.

It would be tough to be a competitive P5 public school with only 8k students, but I'm not sure I would've attended W&M if we had 25k students.

Louisiana Monroe is the smallest public FBS school, I believe (Air Force is smallest overall, but the service academies are kind of their own thing). They've made 1 bowl game and haven't played in any post season basketball since moving up to the FBS level.

I think Tulsa is the smallest overall, right? Like 4K total students.

According to google, Air Force is the smallest at 4,300, Tulsa has 4,600. But I believe Tulsa is the smallest non-service academy.

While Tulsa and Air Force play D1 football, they are not in Power 5 conferences. Believe that WF is the smallest school playing football in a power 5.

Thanks for the info.

So when the NCAA created the 1-A/1-AA split, W&M and Richmond both left the SoCon to pursue 1-A football? What was the catalyst for dropping down a few years later?

(01-13-2020 07:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  Thanks for the info.

So when the NCAA created the 1-A/1-AA split, W&M and Richmond both left the SoCon to pursue 1-A football? What was the catalyst for dropping down a few years later?

WM and Richmond both left the SC when the SC had some defections and brought in East Tennessee State and another school to replace the defections. The NCAA separated the schools into 1-A and 1-AA later. WM and Richmond had no input into where they were placed.

(01-13-2020 07:27 PM)TribeDeac Wrote:  [quote='esayem' pid='16608664' dateline='1578960378']
Thanks for the info.

So when the NCAA created the 1-A/1-AA split, W&M and Richmond both left the SoCon to pursue 1-A football? What was the catalyst for dropping down a few years later?

WM and Richmond both left the SC when the SC had some defections and brought in East Tennessee State and another school to replace the defections. The NCAA separated the schools into 1-A and 1-AA later. WM and Richmond had no input into where they were placed.

Some additional info:

https://www.si.com/vault/1978/01/23/1067...s-decision

(01-13-2020 07:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  Thanks for the info.

So when the NCAA created the 1-A/1-AA split, W&M and Richmond both left the SoCon to pursue 1-A football? What was the catalyst for dropping down a few years later?

I feel really old now, knowing some of these answers....

The So Con was D1 in the 70s, just like the ACC. In addition to W&M and UR, it also included ECU as well as Virginia Tech and WVU (those two left in 69 or 70). There was no 1AA, that split happened in 1981, give or take year.

W&M, UR and ECU all left the So Con at about the same time in the mid 70s. Part of the reason was the league was expanding with East Tennessee and App State, two schools who were viewed then as a step down for the league.

There were very preliminary discussions to create another league in the latter 70s to include Rutgers, Temple, W&M and ECU among others though it never got legs. Then soon after, the split came and W&M has been successfully playing FCS football ever since. Roughly half of our old rivals (UR, VMI, Villanova, Delaware, Furman, etc.) are all in the same Division so it wasn't a huge drop at all. We also actually helped create what is now the Patriot League with Colgate and Holy Cross, then dropped out before it ever started due to the new leagues extensive restrictions on post season and scholarships.

Thanks for all the great info. I’ll be rooting for the Tribe make the Dance this year, lord knows I need a decent team to watch.

I came across an article from the late 70’s last night that mentioned a proposed league of William & Mary, Richmond, VMI, ECU, S. Carolina, and So. Miss. Apparently, reps from those schools met in Richmond, then invited Virginia Tech, WVU, and Florida State to meet in Greensboro. Obviously, the plans fell through.

(01-13-2020 12:05 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  I think if Wake Forest was able to survive the P5 landscape in the ACC, we too would have been able to. Getting in early, we'd would have enjoyed the growth the entire ACC enjoyed through the 70s and 80s. We would have enjoyed the boost in visibility and dollars the ACC has gotten from TV rights and multiple tourney appearances. Do you really think Tech would be UVAs biggest rival if we were both conference mates since 1971? If we were a traditional FBS regional player, do you think Tech would have gotten all of those recruits out of the 757? All fun speculation, but none of these ACC/FBS programs were significantly ahead of where W&M was when the decision to deemphasize was made.

WF has had some strength that WM never has,e.g. a strong basketball tradition, which has been the traditional strength sport in the ACC. Some good background on the early ACC with former WF AD Gene Hooks:

https://www.journalnow.com/sports/wfu/ge...9615e.html