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SI article on sagging attendance
https://www.si.com/college/2020/01/10/co...cline-ncaa

"As college football prepares to crown its latest champion, the game is facing a much bigger question than Clemson or LSU: namely, why are crowds at stadiums across the country shrinking? University administrators have tried fix after fix—but without ever diagnosing a root cause beyond 'kids these days....'

But fans aren’t showing up the way they used to. Average attendance in 2018 was the lowest it’s been for Florida since 1990. While the ’19 season saw an uptick of about 2,000 fans per game—for an average of 84,684 in a 91,916-capacity stadium—attendance has still fallen nearly 6% over five years.

Florida isn’t alone—and plenty other schools have it much worse. From 2014 to ’18, attendance across the FBS fell by 7.6%. Last year, on average, 41,856 fans went to games. That’s the lowest turnout since 1996; even major programs like Ohio State, Virginia Tech and Ole Miss suffered declines of greater than 5%. The NCAA has yet to release its full report on 2019’s numbers, but pictures of nearly-empty stadiums, from big to small programs, popped up every fall weekend on Twitter. During bowl season, as games moved to neutral sites, the stands were so empty it looked more like spring football. Even athletic directors will openly admit it: College football is facing an attendance crisis...."
01-10-2020 12:54 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
This is a theme I heard from Alabama students in an article a couple years ago (earlier in the article there is the same theme from several Clemson students):

"“...If we were to play a more competitive schedule at home, that would cause me to want to go,” Swoops continues. “There’s nothing better than going to see a good game in person.”

The scores of Ohio State’s home games this season to date had been: 45–21, 42–0, 76–5, 34–10, 38–7 and 73–14, the last a win over Big Ten “rival” Maryland. In 2014, amid a larger wave of conference realignment, the Big Ten expanded to include Rutgers and Maryland. Both were placed with OSU in the conference’s eastern division, meaning they play the Buckeyes every year (and every other year at home). Neither Rutgers nor Maryland is consistently competitive, but both are near major media markets, bring more viewership to the Big Ten Network and more money to schools in the conference...."
01-10-2020 01:01 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
So the killing of the Golden Goose many predicted with high ticket prices, mandatory "donations", etc is catching up.

Add that the availability of many games on video (OTA, Cable or streaming), better home experience (in 1997, average TV size was 22", now it is 50"), crack downs on tail-gaiting, etc.
01-10-2020 01:02 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 01:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  This is a theme I heard from Alabama students in an article a couple years ago (earlier in the article there is the same theme from several Clemson students):

"“...If we were to play a more competitive schedule at home, that would cause me to want to go,” Swoops continues. “There’s nothing better than going to see a good game in person.”

The scores of Ohio State’s home games this season to date had been: 45–21, 42–0, 76–5, 34–10, 38–7 and 73–14, the last a win over Big Ten “rival” Maryland. In 2014, amid a larger wave of conference realignment, the Big Ten expanded to include Rutgers and Maryland. Both were placed with OSU in the conference’s eastern division, meaning they play the Buckeyes every year (and every other year at home). Neither Rutgers nor Maryland is consistently competitive, but both are near major media markets, bring more viewership to the Big Ten Network and more money to schools in the conference...."

And schools that have traded exposure/money for attendance by moving games from Saturday.
01-10-2020 01:03 PM
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domer1978 Offline
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
Prices, ND has lost their mind with the cost to attend a game.
01-10-2020 01:12 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
If we were between the ages of 18 and 22 and attending a FBS school with a good football history which option sounds better? Being in a stadium for almost four hours with bad weather which could be from high temperatures and high humidity to heavy rain and cold temperatures or go to your buddy’s place, watch the game in a 65” 4K tv with plenty of food and drinks?

This is what changed with these mega tv deals. If you’re a student at a P5 school, the games will be on tv which is something that wasn’t an option 20 years ago when I was in college. It’s also a generational thing. If you were born after 1990, chances are you’re not as passionate like your predecessors were plus nobody is talking about the big elephant in the room: student loan debt which is taking away disposable income that could go for tickets and donations.
01-10-2020 01:16 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #7
RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 01:02 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  So the killing of the Golden Goose many predicted with high ticket prices, mandatory "donations", etc is catching up.

No, they've just found a different golden goose.

Take any P5 team you like, and compare

(A) 1979 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

with

(B) 2019 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

Pretty sure that (B) will be a much larger number for all of those programs.
01-10-2020 01:37 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 01:37 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 01:02 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  So the killing of the Golden Goose many predicted with high ticket prices, mandatory "donations", etc is catching up.

No, they've just found a different golden goose.

Take any P5 team you like, and compare

(A) 1979 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

with

(B) 2019 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

Pretty sure that (B) will be a much larger number for all of those programs.

Not a lot of change between 1979 and around 1997 except for national inflation. The last couple of decades have been where it has really taken off.
01-10-2020 01:47 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 01:37 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 01:02 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  So the killing of the Golden Goose many predicted with high ticket prices, mandatory "donations", etc is catching up.

No, they've just found a different golden goose.

Take any P5 team you like, and compare

(A) 1979 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

with

(B) 2019 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

Pretty sure that (B) will be a much larger number for all of those programs.


So they shouldn't complain about attendance. They have traded ticket money for TV money.

Short term, great. Long term - TBD
01-10-2020 02:13 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 01:12 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  Prices, ND has lost their mind with the cost to attend a game.

I know ND fans in the area who had season tickets for generations and gave them up because season ticket prices exploded beyond their means.
01-10-2020 02:17 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
I think chairbacks - or at least benchbacks - are becoming a must for stadiums. People aren't willing to shell out a fortune for their back to hurt and be packed in like sardines for 4 hours.

I can deal with tv timeouts as long as cellular service allows me to check scores. Back aches and claustrophobia are far more likely to signal leaving early.
01-10-2020 02:27 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 01:16 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  If we were between the ages of 18 and 22 and attending a FBS school with a good football history which option sounds better? Being in a stadium for almost four hours with bad weather which could be from high temperatures and high humidity to heavy rain and cold temperatures or go to your buddy’s place, watch the game in a 65” 4K tv with plenty of food and drinks?

This is what changed with these mega tv deals. If you’re a student at a P5 school, the games will be on tv which is something that wasn’t an option 20 years ago when I was in college. It’s also a generational thing. If you were born after 1990, chances are you’re not as passionate like your predecessors were plus nobody is talking about the big elephant in the room: student loan debt which is taking away disposable income that could go for tickets and donations.

As long as it's between 40-90 degrees, the former by miles. That's how lifelong memories are made. No one remembers sitting on the couch.

90+ or sub-40 weather, climate control takes over.
01-10-2020 02:31 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
All of this plus HD TV's and the fact that those born in '46 turn 74 this year. And that part of the % in decline is only going up for the next 15 years.
01-10-2020 02:36 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 02:13 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 01:37 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 01:02 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  So the killing of the Golden Goose many predicted with high ticket prices, mandatory "donations", etc is catching up.

No, they've just found a different golden goose.

Take any P5 team you like, and compare

(A) 1979 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

with

(B) 2019 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

Pretty sure that (B) will be a much larger number for all of those programs.


So they shouldn't complain about attendance. They have traded ticket money for TV money.

Short term, great. Long term - TBD

Might as well make money from media as much as possible. The long term trend for many things is rapidly going away from "being there". Restaurants have fewer people dining in and more people taking food to go or getting delivery. Pizza chains close locations with dining rooms to focus on locations that are exclusively for take out and delivery. Even some pricey restaurants have remodeled to shrink the size of their dining rooms and focus the kitchen on efficiently processing orders placed online or over the phone for take out and delivery. Ask people in their teens and 20s, they don't want to sit in restaurants.

Watching the games on TV is the equivalent of going through a drive-thru or using DoorDash, rather than eating at the restaurant.
01-10-2020 03:04 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 03:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 02:13 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 01:37 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 01:02 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  So the killing of the Golden Goose many predicted with high ticket prices, mandatory "donations", etc is catching up.

No, they've just found a different golden goose.

Take any P5 team you like, and compare

(A) 1979 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

with

(B) 2019 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

Pretty sure that (B) will be a much larger number for all of those programs.


So they shouldn't complain about attendance. They have traded ticket money for TV money.

Short term, great. Long term - TBD

Might as well make money from media as much as possible. The long term trend for many things is rapidly going away from "being there". Restaurants have fewer people dining in and more people taking food to go or getting delivery. Pizza chains close locations with dining rooms to focus on locations that are exclusively for take out and delivery. Even some pricey restaurants have remodeled to shrink the size of their dining rooms and focus the kitchen on efficiently processing orders placed online or over the phone for take out and delivery. Ask people in their teens and 20s, they don't want to sit in restaurants.

Watching the games on TV is the equivalent of going through a drive-thru or using DoorDash, rather than eating at the restaurant.

One exception seems to be music concerts. Major music acts seem to be able to sell out arenas and stadiums very readily these days.
01-10-2020 03:34 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
At Carolina, we have reduced capacity by almost 20%.
22" seat back chairs replaced aluminum benches. Not good if you want to share a stadium blanket with someone on a cold day, but having more space and more leg room is a plus. It's also eliminated people down the row squeezing in a few friends and inconveniencing everybody else.
Bathrooms and concessions are less crowded and the parking problems have been eased.
Customer service (comfort and convenience) replaced a "pack 'em" in mentality and it seems to be working.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2020 03:51 PM by XLance.)
01-10-2020 03:49 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 03:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 03:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 02:13 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 01:37 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 01:02 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  So the killing of the Golden Goose many predicted with high ticket prices, mandatory "donations", etc is catching up.

No, they've just found a different golden goose.

Take any P5 team you like, and compare

(A) 1979 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

with

(B) 2019 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

Pretty sure that (B) will be a much larger number for all of those programs.


So they shouldn't complain about attendance. They have traded ticket money for TV money.

Short term, great. Long term - TBD

Might as well make money from media as much as possible. The long term trend for many things is rapidly going away from "being there". Restaurants have fewer people dining in and more people taking food to go or getting delivery. Pizza chains close locations with dining rooms to focus on locations that are exclusively for take out and delivery. Even some pricey restaurants have remodeled to shrink the size of their dining rooms and focus the kitchen on efficiently processing orders placed online or over the phone for take out and delivery. Ask people in their teens and 20s, they don't want to sit in restaurants.

Watching the games on TV is the equivalent of going through a drive-thru or using DoorDash, rather than eating at the restaurant.

One exception seems to be music concerts. Major music acts seem to be able to sell out arenas and stadiums very readily these days.

It's not so much that major music acts sell out arenas and stadiums better today. The number of "current" acts that could sell out an NFL stadium or NBA arena is lower today than a few decades ago. The list of the top tours through the middle of 2019 shows a disproportionate number of musicians who became famous in the 1960s and 1970s (headed by Elton John):

https://www.pollstar.com/Chart/2019/07/2...rs_747.pdf

However, you might be perceive that there are more big music tours because there are simply more music acts touring more often today. That's a result of how the Internet fundamentally changed how musicians make money. Musicians make very little from albums and recorded music today compared to the pre-Internet era. Streaming on Spotify and other services provide some revenue, but nowhere near what the old LP and later CD delivery mechanisms provided. In contrast, musicians largely get to keep their concert revenue all to themselves (and you inherently can't "pirate" a concert on the Internet in the way that you can freely pirate music files), which means that there's a huge financial incentive for them to continue going on the road.

Up until the year 2000, musicians went on tour in order to promote their new album. Today, musicians release a new album in order to promote their tour. The financial calculus for the music industry has completed shifted over the past 20 years due to the Internet (and it honestly happened a LOT quicker than changes to the television industry).
01-10-2020 04:24 PM
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RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 04:24 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 03:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 03:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 02:13 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 01:37 PM)Wedge Wrote:  No, they've just found a different golden goose.

Take any P5 team you like, and compare

(A) 1979 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

with

(B) 2019 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

Pretty sure that (B) will be a much larger number for all of those programs.


So they shouldn't complain about attendance. They have traded ticket money for TV money.

Short term, great. Long term - TBD

Might as well make money from media as much as possible. The long term trend for many things is rapidly going away from "being there". Restaurants have fewer people dining in and more people taking food to go or getting delivery. Pizza chains close locations with dining rooms to focus on locations that are exclusively for take out and delivery. Even some pricey restaurants have remodeled to shrink the size of their dining rooms and focus the kitchen on efficiently processing orders placed online or over the phone for take out and delivery. Ask people in their teens and 20s, they don't want to sit in restaurants.

Watching the games on TV is the equivalent of going through a drive-thru or using DoorDash, rather than eating at the restaurant.

One exception seems to be music concerts. Major music acts seem to be able to sell out arenas and stadiums very readily these days.

It's not so much that major music acts sell out arenas and stadiums better today. The number of "current" acts that could sell out an NFL stadium or NBA arena is lower today than a few decades ago. The list of the top tours through the middle of 2019 shows a disproportionate number of musicians who became famous in the 1960s and 1970s (headed by Elton John):

https://www.pollstar.com/Chart/2019/07/2...rs_747.pdf

However, you might be perceive that there are more big music tours because there are simply more music acts touring more often today. That's a result of how the Internet fundamentally changed how musicians make money. Musicians make very little from albums and recorded music today compared to the pre-Internet era. Streaming on Spotify and other services provide some revenue, but nowhere near what the old LP and later CD delivery mechanisms provided. In contrast, musicians largely get to keep their concert revenue all to themselves (and you inherently can't "pirate" a concert on the Internet in the way that you can freely pirate music files), which means that there's a huge financial incentive for them to continue going on the road.

Up until the year 2000, musicians went on tour in order to promote their new album. Today, musicians release a new album in order to promote their tour. The financial calculus for the music industry has completed shifted over the past 20 years due to the Internet (and it honestly happened a LOT quicker than changes to the television industry).

That makes sense. I'd add two caveats. First, the number of acts that can sell out NFL stadiums has always been very small. There just aren't many of those, you have to be a real true mega-star to do that. An iconic legacy act like the Rolling Stones or else a super-hot contemporary artist like a Taylor Swift.

Second, I agree the model has changed. But I don't think bands 30 years ago made much money on record sales. Back then, the record company would keep the vast bulk of the money just like they do now. The transition from LPs and Cassettes and CDs to digital downloads and streaming hasn't changed that much. In 1985, a band could have a milion-selling album that made them rock stars and still be in debt to their record company. Back then, many rock stars were what rap artists today call "hood rich", they had the trappings of being rich but without the actual bottom line bank accounts. Their decadent life styles were fueled by loans and advances and other ephemeral money that kept coming as long as they kept making hits.

Heck, Paul McCartney has said that when he left the Beatles in 1970, he was worth about $7 million, which is about $45 million in today's money. That's all he had, despite the billion records the Beatles had sold during the 1960s, the merchandise, the concerts, etc. The whole music industry was set up to vacuum about 95% of the money from the artists.

What has changed, what has allowed even artists with just a few hits to become real millionaires these days, is the sources of money outside of the record-concert matrix. Thanks to social media, a rapper or pop star might only sell a million records, but if they have millions of Instagram or Twitter followers, or their latest video is watched 10 million times on Youtube, they can easily monetize that via branding and marketing, money the record company can't touch. They can cash in by being celebrities in ways that weren't possible before the social media revolution.

Plus, the artists wised up about the pricing of concert tickets. Kind of like media rights deals, which under-valued college football up until about 10 years ago, artists (as you say) back in the day toured basically to promote an album, the idea was to break even on the tour at best but to have a helluva good time via booze and babes doing it.

For example, I saw the Rolling Stones in 1981, still have the ticket stub, the price was $14. It was a good seat in a basketball arena. That translates in to $39 in today's money. Today, $39 will barely pay for parking at a Rolling Stones concert, they charge hundreds for their seats. I also bought a t-shirt at that 1981 show, it was $10, about $28 today. I saw the Stones this past summer and paid $100 for a sweatshirt.

Bill Wyman left the Stones in late 1992. To this day, he has still played on every USA top 40 hit the Stones ever had. They have released records pretty regularly since then, but haven't had a USA hit song since 1989. So basically, Wyman is on the vast, vast majority of records - LPs, cassettes, CDs, downloads, streaming - that the Stones have ever sold. And yet Charlie Watts said this past summer that Wyman missed the "really lucrative" part of the Stones career. That's because of all the high-priced legacy mega-tours they have gone on since then that apparently made the Stones far richer than all the records they sold between the 60s and the 90s, and all the concerts they played back then too.
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2020 09:32 AM by quo vadis.)
01-10-2020 04:48 PM
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Post: #19
RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 01:37 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-10-2020 01:02 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  So the killing of the Golden Goose many predicted with high ticket prices, mandatory "donations", etc is catching up.

No, they've just found a different golden goose.

Take any P5 team you like, and compare

(A) 1979 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

with

(B) 2019 football ticket and game-day revenue plus media revenue

Pretty sure that (B) will be a much larger number for all of those programs.

I think the new golden goose is already on its last legs. It's a bump that will only temporarily hide an overall shift away from watching college football games.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2020 04:59 PM by NIU007.)
01-10-2020 04:58 PM
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Post: #20
RE: SI article on sagging attendance
(01-10-2020 01:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  This is a theme I heard from Alabama students in an article a couple years ago (earlier in the article there is the same theme from several Clemson students):

"“...If we were to play a more competitive schedule at home, that would cause me to want to go,” Swoops continues. “There’s nothing better than going to see a good game in person.”

The scores of Ohio State’s home games this season to date had been: 45–21, 42–0, 76–5, 34–10, 38–7 and 73–14, the last a win over Big Ten “rival” Maryland. In 2014, amid a larger wave of conference realignment, the Big Ten expanded to include Rutgers and Maryland. Both were placed with OSU in the conference’s eastern division, meaning they play the Buckeyes every year (and every other year at home). Neither Rutgers nor Maryland is consistently competitive, but both are near major media markets, bring more viewership to the Big Ten Network and more money to schools in the conference...."

BuT tHe AcC sHoUlD pLaY nInE gAmEs
01-10-2020 05:05 PM
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