After seeing comments about last year’s team compared to this year’s team, I began to think about Jeremiah Martin and just how good he was. My question is this: would you start Jeremiah Martinas a guard on an all-time Tiger team from any player that has come through this program? There has not been a ton of players who simply take over an entire game with minimal help. Curious as to what you think.

(01-10-2020 11:50 AM)tharmon15 Wrote:  After seeing comments about last year’s team compared to this year’s team, I began to think about Jeremiah Martin and just how good he was. My question is this: would you start Jeremiah Martinas a guard on an all-time Tiger team from any player that has come through this program? There has not been a ton of players who simply take over an entire game with minimal help. Curious as to what you think.

All time? No. Not even close.

I would think you atleast have to get your team to the NCAA in order to make an all time list.

I think he is close and if he had been apart of a run, I would certainly lean more in his direction.

(01-10-2020 11:54 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  I would think you atleast have to get your team to the NCAA in order to make an all time list.

I think he is close and if he had been apart of a run, I would certainly lean more in his direction.

Which all-time guards other than Penny would have taken Martin’s Junior and Senior year teams to a NCAA tourney?

It’s probably a stretch to make him on a all-first team but I think there is a great chance he is on an all-second team.

Martin was really good-- he had a knack for creating his own shot. I think he made Penny's offensive scheme look much better than it actually is.

(01-10-2020 11:58 AM)tharmon15 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 11:54 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  I would think you atleast have to get your team to the NCAA in order to make an all time list.

I think he is close and if he had been apart of a run, I would certainly lean more in his direction.

Which all-time guards other than Penny would have taken Martin’s Junior and Senior year teams to a NCAA tourney?

That is a good question that I dont really have an answer for, but if I have 2 choose 2 guards for an all time list, I am pretty sure it will be 2 guards who made runs in the NCAA. If we arent seperating which guard spots, Penny and Finch immediately take the starting guard spots with Penny playing the 2.

(01-10-2020 12:00 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 11:58 AM)tharmon15 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 11:54 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  I would think you atleast have to get your team to the NCAA in order to make an all time list.

I think he is close and if he had been apart of a run, I would certainly lean more in his direction.

Which all-time guards other than Penny would have taken Martin’s Junior and Senior year teams to a NCAA tourney?

That is a good question that I dont really have an answer for, but if I have 2 choose 2 guards for an all time list, I am pretty sure it will be 2 guards who made runs in the NCAA. If we arent seperating which guard spots, Penny and Finch immediately take the starting guard spots with Penny playing the 2.

Recent ones.

Rose
Tyreke
Barton
Burks

Martin was lovely on offense...But he didn't guard.

(01-10-2020 12:00 PM)MtownTigers916 Wrote:  Martin was really good-- he had a knack for creating his own shot. I think he made Penny's offensive scheme look much better than it actually is.

I think Penny's offensive scheme made him look much better than he was. He had one 5-6 game stretch last year where he was lights out and could not miss from three. Outside of that, he may have been slightly better than average from distance, and only marginal on his drives into the lane.

He DID NOT have talent around him that would shoulder the load, if he would have had that, his numbers would have been much more pedestrian. He scored because we needed him to and because of the sheer numbers of shots he and he alone had to take. (granted, you do have to MAKE those shots, and he did that)

Very talented, and one of our very best by the numbers, but hardly 1st or 2nd team, even if only as 2 guard.

(01-10-2020 12:06 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:00 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 11:58 AM)tharmon15 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 11:54 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  I would think you atleast have to get your team to the NCAA in order to make an all time list.

I think he is close and if he had been apart of a run, I would certainly lean more in his direction.

Which all-time guards other than Penny would have taken Martin’s Junior and Senior year teams to a NCAA tourney?

That is a good question that I dont really have an answer for, but if I have 2 choose 2 guards for an all time list, I am pretty sure it will be 2 guards who made runs in the NCAA. If we arent seperating which guard spots, Penny and Finch immediately take the starting guard spots with Penny playing the 2.

Recent ones.

Rose
Tyreke
Barton
Burks

Martin was lovely on offense...But he didn't guard.

Man, I don’t think any of those guys would have produced more than Jmart did. Definitely not Burks. It’s just hard to tell.

Extreme recency bias alert!

CDR would take a team to the dance. I can't imagine what we would have averaged if somebody said take as many shots as you want. Probably 30+

(01-10-2020 12:07 PM)Chi-Town Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:00 PM)MtownTigers916 Wrote:  Martin was really good-- he had a knack for creating his own shot. I think he made Penny's offensive scheme look much better than it actually is.

I think Penny's offensive scheme made him look much better than he was. He had one 5-6 game stretch last year where he was lights out and could not miss from three. Outside of that, he may have been slightly better than average from distance, and only marginal on his drives into the lane.

He DID NOT have talent around him that would shoulder the load, if he would have had that, his numbers would have been much more pedestrian. He scored because we needed him to and because of the sheer numbers of shots he and he alone had to take. (granted, you do have to MAKE those shots, and he did that)

Very talented, and one of our very best by the numbers, but hardly 1st or 2nd team, even if only as 2 guard.

I get what you’re saying, but I think he deserves a little more credit. How many guys in our history would you rather have the ball with 10 sec left to get you a bucket. Several guys I could choose, but I don’t know how many of them I’d say I’d much rather have than JMart. A poor man’s Harden at a much more unathletic level lol.

His ability to not only hit threes but his ability to slime his way into the lane and create contact was exceptional.

(01-10-2020 12:07 PM)Chi-Town Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:00 PM)MtownTigers916 Wrote:  Martin was really good-- he had a knack for creating his own shot. I think he made Penny's offensive scheme look much better than it actually is.

I think Penny's offensive scheme made him look much better than he was. He had one 5-6 game stretch last year where he was lights out and could not miss from three. Outside of that, he may have been slightly better than average from distance, and only marginal on his drives into the lane.

He DID NOT have talent around him that would shoulder the load, if he would have had that, his numbers would have been much more pedestrian. He scored because we needed him to and because of the sheer numbers of shots he and he alone had to take. (granted, you do have to MAKE those shots, and he did that)

Very talented, and one of our very best by the numbers, but hardly 1st or 2nd team, even if only as 2 guard.

It is amazing how things appear but when you look at the stats it is much different.

Precious shots per 40 minutes 16.0 - Martin 15.9
Precious shots per 100 possessions 21.1 - Martin 21.

Precious shoots more often when he is in the game than Martin did. Difference is Martin played more minutes.

(01-10-2020 12:11 PM)jgardne Wrote:  Extreme recency bias alert!

CDR would take a team to the dance. I can't imagine what we would have averaged if somebody said take as many shots as you want. Probably 30+

Definitely could be. But I don’t think it’s outlandish to discuss it. CDR is my favorite tiger ever. I don’t think he could have done much more than JMart did with the talent that was around him.

(01-10-2020 12:18 PM)tharmon15 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:11 PM)jgardne Wrote:  Extreme recency bias alert!

CDR would take a team to the dance. I can't imagine what we would have averaged if somebody said take as many shots as you want. Probably 30+

Definitely could be. But I don’t think it’s outlandish to discuss it. CDR is my favorite tiger ever. I don’t think he could have done much more than JMart did with the talent that was around him.

You are right...But I tend to classify CDR as a SF...

(01-10-2020 12:09 PM)tharmon15 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:06 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:00 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 11:58 AM)tharmon15 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 11:54 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  I would think you atleast have to get your team to the NCAA in order to make an all time list.

I think he is close and if he had been apart of a run, I would certainly lean more in his direction.

Which all-time guards other than Penny would have taken Martin’s Junior and Senior year teams to a NCAA tourney?

That is a good question that I dont really have an answer for, but if I have 2 choose 2 guards for an all time list, I am pretty sure it will be 2 guards who made runs in the NCAA. If we arent seperating which guard spots, Penny and Finch immediately take the starting guard spots with Penny playing the 2.

Recent ones.

Rose
Tyreke
Barton
Burks

Martin was lovely on offense...But he didn't guard.

Man, I don’t think any of those guys would have produced more than Jmart did. Definitely not Burks. It’s just hard to tell.

People sleep on Burks

Burks averaged 16 points his senior year...Shot 41% from the 3 (Martin did make 9 more shooting at 34%)
5.5 assists to Martins 4.4 and would shut down the opponents lead guard.

Martin was a liability on defense.

(01-10-2020 12:27 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:09 PM)tharmon15 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:06 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:00 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 11:58 AM)tharmon15 Wrote:  Which all-time guards other than Penny would have taken Martin’s Junior and Senior year teams to a NCAA tourney?

That is a good question that I dont really have an answer for, but if I have 2 choose 2 guards for an all time list, I am pretty sure it will be 2 guards who made runs in the NCAA. If we arent seperating which guard spots, Penny and Finch immediately take the starting guard spots with Penny playing the 2.

Recent ones.

Rose
Tyreke
Barton
Burks

Martin was lovely on offense...But he didn't guard.

Man, I don’t think any of those guys would have produced more than Jmart did. Definitely not Burks. It’s just hard to tell.

People sleep on Burks

Burks averaged 16 points his senior year...Shot 41% from the 3 (Martin did make 9 more shooting at 34%)
5.5 assists to Martins 4.4 and would shut down the opponents lead guard.

Basically I think all the players I listed could have come close to Martins offensive numbers but could actually defend. Martin was a liability on defense.

If I remember correctly, I think Martin’s first few games he started really slow during his senior year. After that I’d love to see his stats. I know you have to count everything thought.

(01-10-2020 12:32 PM)tharmon15 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:27 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:09 PM)tharmon15 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:06 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:00 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  That is a good question that I dont really have an answer for, but if I have 2 choose 2 guards for an all time list, I am pretty sure it will be 2 guards who made runs in the NCAA. If we arent seperating which guard spots, Penny and Finch immediately take the starting guard spots with Penny playing the 2.

Recent ones.

Rose
Tyreke
Barton
Burks

Martin was lovely on offense...But he didn't guard.

Man, I don’t think any of those guys would have produced more than Jmart did. Definitely not Burks. It’s just hard to tell.

People sleep on Burks

Burks averaged 16 points his senior year...Shot 41% from the 3 (Martin did make 9 more shooting at 34%)
5.5 assists to Martins 4.4 and would shut down the opponents lead guard.

Basically I think all the players I listed could have come close to Martins offensive numbers but could actually defend. Martin was a liability on defense.

If I remember correctly, I think Martin’s first few games he started really slow during his senior year. After that I’d love to see his stats. I know you have to count everything thought.

Very good point...He did start by trying to fit in until Penny realized he needed someone to carry the offense. That is why Martin would be a perfect fit on this team...

A player who could carry the offense paired with a defense that is very good...Granted not as good with Martin playing.

(01-10-2020 12:13 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:07 PM)Chi-Town Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:00 PM)MtownTigers916 Wrote:  Martin was really good-- he had a knack for creating his own shot. I think he made Penny's offensive scheme look much better than it actually is.

I think Penny's offensive scheme made him look much better than he was. He had one 5-6 game stretch last year where he was lights out and could not miss from three. Outside of that, he may have been slightly better than average from distance, and only marginal on his drives into the lane.

He DID NOT have talent around him that would shoulder the load, if he would have had that, his numbers would have been much more pedestrian. He scored because we needed him to and because of the sheer numbers of shots he and he alone had to take. (granted, you do have to MAKE those shots, and he did that)

Very talented, and one of our very best by the numbers, but hardly 1st or 2nd team, even if only as 2 guard.

It is amazing how things appear but when you look at the stats it is much different.

Precious shots per 40 minutes 16.0 - Martin 15.9
Precious shots per 100 possessions 21.1 - Martin 21.

Precious shoots more often when he is in the game than Martin did. Difference is Martin played more minutes.

One of the knocks on Precious is that he doesnt pass once he gets the ball.

(01-10-2020 12:21 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:18 PM)tharmon15 Wrote:  

(01-10-2020 12:11 PM)jgardne Wrote:  Extreme recency bias alert!

CDR would take a team to the dance. I can't imagine what we would have averaged if somebody said take as many shots as you want. Probably 30+

Definitely could be. But I don’t think it’s outlandish to discuss it. CDR is my favorite tiger ever. I don’t think he could have done much more than JMart did with the talent that was around him.

You are right...But I tend to classify CDR as a SF...

He's really a 2 guard forced to play the 3 because we classified Antonio as a 2. They were really positionally interchangeable. CDR has all the tools of a 2 and his size is really that of a big shooting guard. He's small for a SF due to his weight.