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You Know What I Mean
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You Know What I Mean
01-08-2020 09:19 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: You Know What I Mean
I wouldn't say he has been wrong on every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past 4 decades. He had the right idea for post-Saddam Iraq--fix the mistakes of San Remo by dividing it into Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west.

But the quote was "nearly every," and with that modifier I would agree.
01-08-2020 10:50 AM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-08-2020 10:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I wouldn't say he has been wrong on every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past 4 decades. He had the right idea for post-Saddam Iraq--fix the mistakes of San Remo by dividing it into Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west.

But the quote was "nearly every," and with that modifier I would agree.
I remember Biden talking about that in 2003, and I thought it made a lot of sense at the time. But virtually no one else — not the Bush Admin., nor it’s supporters nor it’s critics — seemed to like the idea.
01-08-2020 12:24 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-08-2020 12:24 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 10:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I wouldn't say he has been wrong on every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past 4 decades. He had the right idea for post-Saddam Iraq--fix the mistakes of San Remo by dividing it into Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west.

But the quote was "nearly every," and with that modifier I would agree.
I remember Biden talking about that in 2003, and I thought it made a lot of sense at the time. But virtually no one else — not the Bush Admin., nor it’s supporters nor it’s critics — seemed to like the idea.

I can't think of a time in history where borders were artificially drawn by a 3rd party and it worked.
01-08-2020 12:31 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-08-2020 12:24 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 10:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I wouldn't say he has been wrong on every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past 4 decades. He had the right idea for post-Saddam Iraq--fix the mistakes of San Remo by dividing it into Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west.
But the quote was "nearly every," and with that modifier I would agree.
I remember Biden talking about that in 2003, and I thought it made a lot of sense at the time. But virtually no one else — not the Bush Admin., nor it’s supporters nor it’s critics — seemed to like the idea.

No, we wanted to be an army of occupation. Well, we've done that long enough.
01-08-2020 12:31 PM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
Perhaps because the people in the region don't seem to want it??

Creating Israel made sense at one point and for decades now they've not wanted it

I'm not saying it's a bad idea... I'm just saying that the locals need to support it or it doesn't matter what we think
01-08-2020 12:31 PM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-08-2020 12:31 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 12:24 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 10:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I wouldn't say he has been wrong on every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past 4 decades. He had the right idea for post-Saddam Iraq--fix the mistakes of San Remo by dividing it into Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west.
But the quote was "nearly every," and with that modifier I would agree.
I remember Biden talking about that in 2003, and I thought it made a lot of sense at the time. But virtually no one else — not the Bush Admin., nor it’s supporters nor it’s critics — seemed to like the idea.
I can't think of a time in history where borders were artificially drawn by a 3rd party and it worked.

The difference is that these wouldn't be artificial, they would accurately reflect the people living there. Look at a demographic map of Iraq and it's not hard to figure out where the lines need to be drawn. I would make Kurdistan a bit bigger, because I would hope that having their own country would bring Kurds back from the diaspora in Turkey and Syria.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2020 12:41 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
01-08-2020 12:35 PM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
Biden Confuses Iraq And Iran During Major Foreign Policy Speech…





I can see Biden as President sending our military off to bomb the wrong country.

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8d5...=600&h=610
01-08-2020 01:56 PM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-08-2020 01:56 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  Biden Confuses Iraq And Iran During Major Foreign Policy Speech…





I can see Biden as President sending our military off to bomb the wrong country.

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8d5...=600&h=610

That's it! Send those Cruise Missiles to Bulgaria, no wait, I mean Qatar oops schidt, Iowa City...... Dammit, I meant Iran.......... Did you hit the button already?
01-08-2020 04:26 PM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-08-2020 01:56 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  Biden Confuses Iraq And Iran During Major Foreign Policy Speech…





I can see Biden as President sending our military off to bomb the wrong country
As far back as 2008, in his VP debate with Sarah Palin, Biden stood on the stage and invented an alternate-history of the Middle East. After the financial collapse of mid-September, it didn’t matter what any of the candidates said — Obama had it in the bag. So few people paid much attention to Biden’s nonsense. But his essential disconnect from reality goes back a long time.
01-08-2020 04:51 PM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-08-2020 12:31 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Perhaps because the people in the region don't seem to want it??
Creating Israel made sense at one point and for decades now they've not wanted it.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea... I'm just saying that the locals need to support it or it doesn't matter what we think.

My friend, it's actually pretty difficult to believe that the locals would not want it. Surely the Kurds want independence, and the Sunnis do not want to be a permanent minority in a Shia led country. Maybe the Shias didn't want it, but they get to be their own bosses and they get the part of the country that has oil, and water for agriculture, and access to the sea, so it's hardly a bad deal for them.
01-09-2020 10:08 AM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-08-2020 12:24 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 10:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I wouldn't say he has been wrong on every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past 4 decades. He had the right idea for post-Saddam Iraq--fix the mistakes of San Remo by dividing it into Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west.

But the quote was "nearly every," and with that modifier I would agree.
I remember Biden talking about that in 2003, and I thought it made a lot of sense at the time. But virtually no one else — not the Bush Admin., nor it’s supporters nor it’s critics — seemed to like the idea.

It had to do with the fact that GWB was still trying to keep Turkey behaved, and Turkey DID NOT Want to see a Kurdistan in the north.
01-09-2020 11:06 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-09-2020 11:06 AM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 12:24 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 10:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I wouldn't say he has been wrong on every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past 4 decades. He had the right idea for post-Saddam Iraq--fix the mistakes of San Remo by dividing it into Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west.
But the quote was "nearly every," and with that modifier I would agree.
I remember Biden talking about that in 2003, and I thought it made a lot of sense at the time. But virtually no one else — not the Bush Admin., nor it’s supporters nor it’s critics — seemed to like the idea.
It had to do with the fact that GWB was still trying to keep Turkey behaved, and Turkey DID NOT Want to see a Kurdistan in the north.

There was a way to handle that. At the time, Turkey's number one priority was getting into the EU--not any more. You set up Kurdistan, you give Schlumberger the Halliburton contract for the area, you tell the French this is their makeup call for San Remo, and that it's their job to convince Turkey that Kurdistan is the price of EU membership.

And you make Kurdistan big enough to absorb a considerable return or Kurds from the Syria/Turkey diaspora, and the chance to return to their own homeland will draw enough of them back to ease Turkey's problems with them.
01-09-2020 12:06 PM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
Owlnumbers

so why do they need our permission to do it?

I absolutely see your point, but the devil is often in the details. I suspect there are some 'nevers' that can't be resolved?? I'm guessing and defer to you here... but if they want it, why isn't it happening, with our without us?
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2020 02:05 PM by Hambone10.)
01-09-2020 02:05 PM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-08-2020 12:31 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 12:24 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 10:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I wouldn't say he has been wrong on every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past 4 decades. He had the right idea for post-Saddam Iraq--fix the mistakes of San Remo by dividing it into Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west.

But the quote was "nearly every," and with that modifier I would agree.
I remember Biden talking about that in 2003, and I thought it made a lot of sense at the time. But virtually no one else — not the Bush Admin., nor it’s supporters nor it’s critics — seemed to like the idea.

I can't think of a time in history where borders were artificially drawn by a 3rd party and it worked.

Poland 1945. The USSR took 69,000 square miles from Poland in the East (45% of Polish territory), and forced Germany to give Poland 40,000 square miles in East Prussia and the West.

It worked out ok because the Soviets kicked out all the Germans and gave their land to Poles that they had kicked out of Eastern Poland. The new borders ended up reflecting where people actually lived.
01-09-2020 04:40 PM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-08-2020 12:35 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 12:31 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 12:24 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 10:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I wouldn't say he has been wrong on every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past 4 decades. He had the right idea for post-Saddam Iraq--fix the mistakes of San Remo by dividing it into Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west.
But the quote was "nearly every," and with that modifier I would agree.
I remember Biden talking about that in 2003, and I thought it made a lot of sense at the time. But virtually no one else — not the Bush Admin., nor it’s supporters nor it’s critics — seemed to like the idea.
I can't think of a time in history where borders were artificially drawn by a 3rd party and it worked.

The difference is that these wouldn't be artificial, they would accurately reflect the people living there. Look at a demographic map of Iraq and it's not hard to figure out where the lines need to be drawn. I would make Kurdistan a bit bigger, because I would hope that having their own country would bring Kurds back from the diaspora in Turkey and Syria.

He understands Iraq was created by a 3rd party, doesn't he? Britain and France drew the lines for Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan. For that matter, Turkey and Iran as well.
01-09-2020 04:52 PM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-09-2020 10:08 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 12:31 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Perhaps because the people in the region don't seem to want it??
Creating Israel made sense at one point and for decades now they've not wanted it.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea... I'm just saying that the locals need to support it or it doesn't matter what we think.

My friend, it's actually pretty difficult to believe that the locals would not want it. Surely the Kurds want independence, and the Sunnis do not want to be a permanent minority in a Shia led country. Maybe the Shias didn't want it, but they get to be their own bosses and they get the part of the country that has oil, and water for agriculture, and access to the sea, so it's hardly a bad deal for them.

If they could agree on Kirkuk and Baghdad, the 3 groups would probably do it tomorrow.
01-09-2020 04:54 PM
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RE: You Know What I Mean
(01-09-2020 12:06 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  There was a way to handle that. At the time, Turkey's number one priority was getting into the EU--not any more. You set up Kurdistan, you give Schlumberger the Halliburton contract for the area, you tell the French this is their makeup call for San Remo, and that it's their job to convince Turkey that Kurdistan is the price of EU membership.

Oh I agree Owl.... GWB should have called Turkey on the table at the time, and I will say it was a major disappointment that he hadn't.
01-09-2020 05:04 PM
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