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SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
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orangefan Online
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Post: #21
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-07-2020 12:58 PM)ken d Wrote:  Boeheim's decision to not retire when he said he would sealed Cuse's fate IMO. Had he just stepped down and let Hopkins take over the program as planned, the Orange wouldn't have skipped a beat. Legends staying past their expiration date rarely works out well for their school.

Agreed, although I don't begrudge Boeheim sticking around to coach his son. He's earned the right.
01-08-2020 08:20 AM
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Post: #22
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-07-2020 04:02 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 02:51 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 12:58 PM)ken d Wrote:  Boeheim's decision to not retire when he said he would sealed Cuse's fate IMO. Had he just stepped down and let Hopkins take over the program as planned, the Orange wouldn't have skipped a beat. Legends staying past their expiration date rarely works out well for their school.

Dean Smith retired at the right time. I couldn’t see him partaking in the one and done era.

I seem to remember him having a couple bad seasons before he stepped down. Not losing seasons, just bad seasons according to UNC standards.

They lost to Arkansas in the ‘95 Final Four, then Donald Williams graduated and Stackhouse and Wallace left early as sophomores. Had they stuck around, they could have played with Jamison and Vince Carter, which could have been one of the best teams of all-time.

I think they had an early exit that next year. I seem to remember a loss to Penn State in the first round that was baffling.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2020 10:44 AM by esayem.)
01-08-2020 10:43 AM
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Post: #23
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
I looked it up, they lost to Texas Tech in the second round. I remember listening to it on the radio with my dad in the garage. Darvin Ham broke the glass.

Smith made two Final Fours in his last three seasons.

*Guth went 34-4 in his first season with an absolutely loaded squad. Lost in the Final 4 to Majerus and the Utes.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2020 10:56 AM by esayem.)
01-08-2020 10:49 AM
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Post: #24
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-08-2020 01:15 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I can’t speak to the others but switching conferences definitely had an impact on Pitt basketball.

In fact, Jamie Dixon left because Pitt joined the ACC. Had that never happened, I have no doubt whatsoever that Dixon would still be the coach at Pitt.

Don’t get me wrong, Pitt still obviously made the right move. Dixon just has to get over it or move on to another school. He clearly chose the latter and I sincerely wish him well. He was always a class act here and I have nothing but nice things to say about him and the job he and Howland did in building this program.

However, Pitt basketball had become too dependent on New York City area kids to survive. Literally 75% of our roster were kids from Northern New Jersey or New York City. It honestly made our program what it was, which was a really good Big East basketball program during their time at Pitt. However, playing in the Garden multiple times per year was a really big draw to those kids. Playing in Greensboro, North Carolina is not. That is why Dixson left. He didn’t think he could recruit anywhere else on the eastern seaboard and he didn’t think kids from New York City had any interest in playing in a Southern-based conference.

Obviously, I strongly disagree with that assumption. I think lots of New York City area kids and really kids from all over the country would have interest in playing and what is generally considered the best league in college basketball. Also, and more importantly, there are lots of good basketball players everywhere – not just in New York City. Set up some recruiting bases in Atlanta and Washington DC and Philadelphia and Charlotte and you’ll be fine.

Still, that’s definitely what drove him out of Pitt. I have no doubt about that because we have mutual acquaintances and he has told them that directly several times. He was bitterly disappointed that Pitt left the Big East — which he thought was perfect for Pitt basketball — for the ACC. Again, that’s just how it goes. Football runs the show and we had to do that to save our football program no matter what.

As for the overall quality of the Big East versus the ACC, I would say they were pretty comparable. The Big East was really, really good and deep. However, the ACC is probably better because of North Carolina and Duke. I don’t know that the mid-level teams are quite as good as they were in the Big East, but the top teams are truly outstanding.

Still, and I know this ruffles people’s fathers, so I will only say it once, the tournament is no contest. As someone who has attended multiple of each, I can confidently tell you that the Big East tournament blows away the ACC tournament 10 out of 10 times. I do like that the ACC tournament is much cheaper to attend. That’s definitely a feather in its cap. Also, it’s a totally different vibe and it’s nice walking around sleepy Greensboro having waffles and what not. However, it’s only cheaper to attend because it’s inferior in literally every single way.

The ACC tournament is older, so you would think that would give it a tradition advantage. However, that’s even that is mitigated by the fact that Madison Square Garden is such a famously historic facility that you really feel like you are someplace very special while you are there. It’s just not even a contest between that experience and the Greensboro Coliseum.

As I said, that’s all water over the dam now. We are in the ACC now and we are never going back. However, you can still tell the truth about things and no fan who has experienced both tournaments is going to tell you that they prefer the ACC tournament to the Big East tournament. If they tell you that, they are lying to you or they hate things like electricity, excitement and fun.

The Big East Tourney in its heyday was phenomenal. Today or even then, you could take the top half of BE and ACC conferences and have one helluva group of teams!
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2020 01:38 PM by IHAVETRIED.)
01-08-2020 01:37 PM
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Post: #25
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
Of course Dixon was wrong. Frank McGuire built the NYC to ACC pipeline and it never dried up.
01-08-2020 05:24 PM
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Post: #26
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-08-2020 05:24 PM)esayem Wrote:  Of course Dixon was wrong. Frank McGuire built the NYC to ACC pipeline and it never dried up.

Top NYC basketball recruits who signed with ACC teams last year:
6. Joe Girard III, SG, Glens Falls
6-1, 178 pounds
Committed to Syracuse

5. Ismael Massoud, SF, MacDuffie
6-8, 200 pounds
Committed to Wake Forest

4. Gerald Drumgoole, SF, La Lumiere
6-6, 195 pounds
Committed to Pittsburgh

3. Justin Champagnie, SF, Bishop Loughlin
6-5, 180 pounds
Committed to Pittsburgh

1. Aidan Igiehon, C, Lawrence Woodmere
6-10, 235 pounds
Committed to Louisville

Looks like Pitt got two of the top 6, and they're getting more (Max Amadasun, C, 6-10)
01-08-2020 06:30 PM
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Post: #27
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-08-2020 05:24 PM)esayem Wrote:  Of course Dixon was wrong. Frank McGuire built the NYC to ACC pipeline and it never dried up.

NYC isn't producing talent like it use to anyway.

Dixon didn't want to leave the Big East. No Big East basketball coach ever wanted to leave because it was a great hoops conference and change is never comfortable. Changing conferences is certainly going to demand some recruiting adjustment and the ACC change did force adjustments with some inevitable down cycling. But the ACC wasn't a major reason Dixon left Pitt. That was only a secondary consideration at best; an adjustment to changing conferences was inevitable whether he stayed or left. In fact, he stated if Pitt had to change conferences because of football, he hoped it would be the ACC, because Pitt was also talking to the B12 and trying to get in the B10 and he knew for a year prior it was probably coming. The change to a new conference made it easier to leave because change was already afoot, but Dixon left because of one major, primary reason: new AD Scott Barnes and a small cadre of idiot boosters; really one major moron that had Barnes' ear.

Pitt destroyed its own program with an amazing amount of blunt administrative incompetence. You couldn't have more effectively destroyed a program if you intentionally tried. Luckily, Barnes left after little more than a year and the new AD pressed restart by cutting bait on Kevin Stallings after year two. Hopefully, the damage was minimized by acting quickly.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2020 09:01 PM by CrazyPaco.)
01-08-2020 08:43 PM
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Post: #28
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-08-2020 06:30 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 05:24 PM)esayem Wrote:  Of course Dixon was wrong. Frank McGuire built the NYC to ACC pipeline and it never dried up.

Top NYC basketball recruits who signed with ACC teams last year:
6. Joe Girard III, SG, Glens Falls
6-1, 178 pounds
Committed to Syracuse

5. Ismael Massoud, SF, MacDuffie
6-8, 200 pounds
Committed to Wake Forest

4. Gerald Drumgoole, SF, La Lumiere
6-6, 195 pounds
Committed to Pittsburgh

3. Justin Champagnie, SF, Bishop Loughlin
6-5, 180 pounds
Committed to Pittsburgh

1. Aidan Igiehon, C, Lawrence Woodmere
6-10, 235 pounds
Committed to Louisville

Looks like Pitt got two of the top 6, and they're getting more (Max Amadasun, C, 6-10)

Two of the Top Five. Joe Girard is from Upstate NY about 1 hour north of Albany.
01-08-2020 09:49 PM
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Post: #29
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
I don't follow Syracuse basketball closely, but it just seems like a factor of getting stale after so many decades.

I've always wondered too when and if that zone was going to bite them. Again, just from casual observation, it seems like the game has changed so much...guys are so much better shooters, and now you're defending 4-5 guys on the floor that can bury threes in many cases. It's just so, so much different than it used to be. I'm just surprised that it has worked this long or can continue to work.

And I'm also a little biased probably as a fan of a team that is all about defense, and so many of the better recruits that FSU does get talk about wanting to learn how to play defense for the next level, that's the part of their game they come to FSU to get better at. I wonder sometimes if its difficult to sell recruits on coming and playing that zone all the time.

Again, maybe Syracuse has perfect answers for these in defense of the 2-3 zone, like I said, I don't know it that closely (nor care).
01-13-2020 01:19 PM
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Post: #30
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-08-2020 08:43 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 05:24 PM)esayem Wrote:  Of course Dixon was wrong. Frank McGuire built the NYC to ACC pipeline and it never dried up.

NYC isn't producing talent like it use to anyway.

Dixon didn't want to leave the Big East. No Big East basketball coach ever wanted to leave because it was a great hoops conference and change is never comfortable. Changing conferences is certainly going to demand some recruiting adjustment and the ACC change did force adjustments with some inevitable down cycling. But the ACC wasn't a major reason Dixon left Pitt. That was only a secondary consideration at best; an adjustment to changing conferences was inevitable whether he stayed or left. In fact, he stated if Pitt had to change conferences because of football, he hoped it would be the ACC, because Pitt was also talking to the B12 and trying to get in the B10 and he knew for a year prior it was probably coming. The change to a new conference made it easier to leave because change was already afoot, but Dixon left because of one major, primary reason: new AD Scott Barnes and a small cadre of idiot boosters; really one major moron that had Barnes' ear.

Pitt destroyed its own program with an amazing amount of blunt administrative incompetence. You couldn't have more effectively destroyed a program if you intentionally tried. Luckily, Barnes left after little more than a year and the new AD pressed restart by cutting bait on Kevin Stallings after year two. Hopefully, the damage was minimized by acting quickly.

This is what Ive always heard from press clippings/Pitt fans as well. Which is why Dr. Yinzer's post confused me. Dixon not liking the ACC switch due to the added difficulty of recruiting NYC and Jersey so he leaves for TCU is tough sell logically. Im sure its easier luring NYC recruits to a team with no bball history in a worse conference thousands of miles away than it is to Pitt in the ACC
01-13-2020 03:28 PM
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Post: #31
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-13-2020 03:28 PM)ColumbusCard Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 08:43 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 05:24 PM)esayem Wrote:  Of course Dixon was wrong. Frank McGuire built the NYC to ACC pipeline and it never dried up.

NYC isn't producing talent like it use to anyway.

Dixon didn't want to leave the Big East. No Big East basketball coach ever wanted to leave because it was a great hoops conference and change is never comfortable. Changing conferences is certainly going to demand some recruiting adjustment and the ACC change did force adjustments with some inevitable down cycling. But the ACC wasn't a major reason Dixon left Pitt. That was only a secondary consideration at best; an adjustment to changing conferences was inevitable whether he stayed or left. In fact, he stated if Pitt had to change conferences because of football, he hoped it would be the ACC, because Pitt was also talking to the B12 and trying to get in the B10 and he knew for a year prior it was probably coming. The change to a new conference made it easier to leave because change was already afoot, but Dixon left because of one major, primary reason: new AD Scott Barnes and a small cadre of idiot boosters; really one major moron that had Barnes' ear.

Pitt destroyed its own program with an amazing amount of blunt administrative incompetence. You couldn't have more effectively destroyed a program if you intentionally tried. Luckily, Barnes left after little more than a year and the new AD pressed restart by cutting bait on Kevin Stallings after year two. Hopefully, the damage was minimized by acting quickly.

This is what Ive always heard from press clippings/Pitt fans as well. Which is why Dr. Yinzer's post confused me. Dixon not liking the ACC switch due to the added difficulty of recruiting NYC and Jersey so he leaves for TCU is tough sell logically. Im sure its easier luring NYC recruits to a team with no bball history in a worse conference thousands of miles away than it is to Pitt in the ACC

Dixon played at TCU.

Cuse's problems in a few bullet points:
1. Zone gets a bad rap for prepping players for the NBA
2. Boeheim's Age and the NCAA hammering Boeheim and Cuse
3. Losing Mike Hopkins to UW (By far best recruiter)

Additionally, the crowds are getting smaller. Not sure they will hold onto the attendance title this year.
01-13-2020 05:00 PM
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Post: #32
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-13-2020 05:00 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 03:28 PM)ColumbusCard Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 08:43 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 05:24 PM)esayem Wrote:  Of course Dixon was wrong. Frank McGuire built the NYC to ACC pipeline and it never dried up.

NYC isn't producing talent like it use to anyway.

Dixon didn't want to leave the Big East. No Big East basketball coach ever wanted to leave because it was a great hoops conference and change is never comfortable. Changing conferences is certainly going to demand some recruiting adjustment and the ACC change did force adjustments with some inevitable down cycling. But the ACC wasn't a major reason Dixon left Pitt. That was only a secondary consideration at best; an adjustment to changing conferences was inevitable whether he stayed or left. In fact, he stated if Pitt had to change conferences because of football, he hoped it would be the ACC, because Pitt was also talking to the B12 and trying to get in the B10 and he knew for a year prior it was probably coming. The change to a new conference made it easier to leave because change was already afoot, but Dixon left because of one major, primary reason: new AD Scott Barnes and a small cadre of idiot boosters; really one major moron that had Barnes' ear.

Pitt destroyed its own program with an amazing amount of blunt administrative incompetence. You couldn't have more effectively destroyed a program if you intentionally tried. Luckily, Barnes left after little more than a year and the new AD pressed restart by cutting bait on Kevin Stallings after year two. Hopefully, the damage was minimized by acting quickly.

This is what Ive always heard from press clippings/Pitt fans as well. Which is why Dr. Yinzer's post confused me. Dixon not liking the ACC switch due to the added difficulty of recruiting NYC and Jersey so he leaves for TCU is tough sell logically. Im sure its easier luring NYC recruits to a team with no bball history in a worse conference thousands of miles away than it is to Pitt in the ACC

Dixon played at TCU.

And had turned them down previously, along with multiple higher profile jobs. He wasn't looking to leave until it was made plainly clear he didn't have support from the new administration. He was defacto forced out by Barnes. Also had a new Chancellor so that relationship was new.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2020 05:09 PM by CrazyPaco.)
01-13-2020 05:05 PM
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Post: #33
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
SU's problem is JB is finally winding down age wise.

Still, SU should put their hoops in Big East and everything else in ACC.
01-14-2020 10:29 AM
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Post: #34
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-14-2020 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  SU's problem is JB is finally winding down age wise.

Still, SU should put their hoops in Big East and everything else in ACC.

03-lmfao Yeah I don't think that is an option but it would get most of the gang back 02-13-banana
01-14-2020 11:07 AM
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Post: #35
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-14-2020 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  SU's problem is JB is finally winding down age wise.

Still, SU should put their hoops in Big East and everything else in ACC.

05-mafia
01-14-2020 11:29 AM
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Post: #36
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-14-2020 11:29 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  SU's problem is JB is finally winding down age wise.

Still, SU should put their hoops in Big East and everything else in ACC.

05-mafia

Come on. Of course the ACC wouldn't go for that (well, maybe they would?) but IF you could keep your football in the ACC and share in the big football dollars, wouldn't you rather have your hoops back in the Big East?

Sure, it's cool playing Duke and UNC, but that can't be as appealing as playing your traditional rivals, eh?
01-14-2020 11:59 AM
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Post: #37
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
Don't be silly...

(01-14-2020 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  SU's problem is JB is finally winding down age wise.

Still, SU should put their hoops in Big East and everything else lacrosse in ACC.

FIFY.

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01-14-2020 12:07 PM
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Post: #38
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
Had the Big East never haphazardly cobbled together a football league, Syracuse, BC, and Pitt might be in the conference with their football in the ACC.
01-14-2020 12:57 PM
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Post: #39
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-14-2020 12:57 PM)esayem Wrote:  Had the Big East never haphazardly cobbled together a football league, Syracuse, BC, and Pitt might be in the conference with their football in the ACC.

Yeah, but that would have had a shorter lifespan than the BE football Conference. The ACC soon would have demanded all in.
01-14-2020 02:20 PM
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Post: #40
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-14-2020 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  SU's problem is JB is finally winding down age wise.

Still, SU should put their hoops in Big East and everything else in ACC.

IIRC, there is a rule that prohibits such an arrangement.
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2020 06:58 PM by ColumbusCard.)
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