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mturn017 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: attendance by conference
(01-06-2020 02:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 01:17 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 04:18 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 03:31 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 01:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  New NCAA rule proposal: If you average less than 20k over a rolling 4-year period, you are demoted from FBS to FCS.

Question: what makes 20K the magic number, and why should attendance be the sole determinant of a move down to FCS? Should FCS programs who meet the 20K threshold be able to automatically move up?

It's reflective of the likely economic strength of the Athletic Department.

For instance every G5 program receives a minimum of 25% subsidy and no P5 program receives 25% subsidy.

Right now that subsidy line is the de facto separation point between the P5 and G5. I think realistically there should be a line of demarcation between the FCS and the G5 and that threshold should be higher. I'd say even 25,000 in attendance. There simply is a great deal of difference between the AAC/MWC and the rest of the G5 in terms of economic strength and to a degree the ability to compete.

But those are questions for the individual school admins, their boards and other stakeholders. Not the NCAA. The only justification for the NCAA to interfere is if one subdivision was growing too large for competitive purposes.

As far as your 25K threshold. You need to take a look at the level you'd be pushing them into. Only about 20 of the 125 FCS schools even break the 10K level mark. Georgetown averaged 1,840 in 2018, maybe we should force them into Div II.

Also, Rutgers subsidy percentage is pretty close to 30%. But subsidy percentage shouldn't be the de facto separation point for anything.

There is a big difference in sports sponsorship requirements between Division I and Division II. There are almost no remaining Division II schools that look anything at all like a Division I school. Mostly they are small regional state universities. FCS is the catchall for the Division I basketball schools who aren't FBS level football. That includes schools like Montana and Illinois State as well as schools like Presbyterian and Houston Baptist. There's a broad range.


I wasn't seriously proposing moving Georgetown to Div II. There's only a handful of schools in FCS that put resources into football at a level to match the lowest level of G5 spending schools. The rest as you say want to have a football program and play Division I sports.
01-06-2020 02:16 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #42
RE: attendance by conference
(01-05-2020 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 11:21 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  Big 12 Fans Narrative: Our schools make more money than your schools do...

Anyone with a brain that apparently doesn’t believe big 12 propaganda:

If you have a pie and cut it into 10 pieces versus cutting the same pie into 12 or 14 pieces,
the 10 pieces are going to always be bigger.

Obviously not a business major.

Most revenue is internally generated. And the Big 12 makes more as shown by the average attendance. As for the TV piece, the Big 12 is selling less inventory, so its not like dividing a fixed amount fewer ways.

The problem with common sense is it’s no longer so common.

Your initial post listed the attendance median for all conferences. In this the case the pie is attendance. If the big 12 added 4 programs to have the same number members as The ACC, Big Ten and SEC the median attendance would be lower. It’s not rocket science.

No matter the big 12 is dead conference walking. You should hook up with Jeremy and you could compare big 12 puff pieces... lol.

The big 12 will soon be parted out like an old chevy. I for one will enjoy watching the ba$tards at WVU squirm and whine...lol

Newbies...
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2020 02:42 PM by CardinalJim.)
01-06-2020 02:40 PM
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UTEPDallas Offline
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Post: #43
RE: attendance by conference
(01-06-2020 02:40 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 11:21 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  Big 12 Fans Narrative: Our schools make more money than your schools do...

Anyone with a brain that apparently doesn’t believe big 12 propaganda:

If you have a pie and cut it into 10 pieces versus cutting the same pie into 12 or 14 pieces,
the 10 pieces are going to always be bigger.

Obviously not a business major.

Most revenue is internally generated. And the Big 12 makes more as shown by the average attendance. As for the TV piece, the Big 12 is selling less inventory, so its not like dividing a fixed amount fewer ways.

The problem with common sense is it’s no longer so common.

Your initial post listed the attendance median for all conferences. In this the case the pie is attendance. If the big 12 added 4 programs to have the same number members as The ACC, Big Ten and SEC the median attendance would be lower. It’s not rocket science.

No matter the big 12 is dead conference walking. You should hook up with Jeremy and you could compare big 12 puff pieces... lol.

The big 12 will soon be parted out like an old chevy. I for one will enjoy watching the ba$tards at WVU squirm and whine...lol

Newbies...

The “death” of the Big XII has been greatly exaggerated and it won’t happen anytime soon. If I was a fan of an ACC school, I would be praying the ACCN starts delivering fast because the schools with options like Clemson and Florida State will start getting anxious the revenue gap with their SEC in-state schools will be wide enough to challenge the GOR. Louisville won’t be that lucky on the next realignment. The Big Ten won’t consider you, the SEC already has a presence in Kentucky and the Pac-12 is too far. It’d be ironic Louisville begging West Virginia and the Big XII for a spot.
01-06-2020 03:21 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #44
RE: attendance by conference
(01-05-2020 10:29 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 12:48 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 12:42 AM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  The three Big Ten kings lead in attention.

True! And the rest of the Big 10 drags them way down. No doubt that Michigan, Ohio State and Penn State are as solid as they come. And a few of the others help to hold their average high enough to be solidly in 2nd place. And then the bottom drags them way down.

Thankfully in the SEC there is only 1 cellar dweller and that's Vanderbilt an institution that Northwestern consistently beats in attendance. The salvation of the SEC are the number of schools consistently in that top 25 and the fact that there is only 1 (Vanderbilt 72nd) below the 30th position. The stunning part to me is that the ACC with its many private schools outdraws the PAC 12 with all of its population and state schools.


JRsec, as to the Pac-12 attendance, I would think the fact that many schools in that league have huge Asian and other foreign student enrollments and graduates (with those folks generally preferring soccer and basketball over American football) might be a factor. Perhaps I'm wrong.


Also, the PAC-12 does not have high population compared to the other conferences.

Total Population of States with Schools in the Conference

ACC - 99.9 million (not counting Notre Dame)
SEC - 99.2 million
Big 10 - 85.4 million (also has schools right outside New York City and DC)
Pac 12 - 67.6 million
Big 12 - 40.8 million

Also much like the ACC, big parts of PAC states do not have a local PAC team. San Diego, the Central Coast, the Central Valley, everything between Sacramento and the Oregon border.
01-06-2020 03:47 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #45
RE: attendance by conference
(01-06-2020 03:47 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 10:29 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 12:48 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 12:42 AM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  The three Big Ten kings lead in attention.

True! And the rest of the Big 10 drags them way down. No doubt that Michigan, Ohio State and Penn State are as solid as they come. And a few of the others help to hold their average high enough to be solidly in 2nd place. And then the bottom drags them way down.

Thankfully in the SEC there is only 1 cellar dweller and that's Vanderbilt an institution that Northwestern consistently beats in attendance. The salvation of the SEC are the number of schools consistently in that top 25 and the fact that there is only 1 (Vanderbilt 72nd) below the 30th position. The stunning part to me is that the ACC with its many private schools outdraws the PAC 12 with all of its population and state schools.


JRsec, as to the Pac-12 attendance, I would think the fact that many schools in that league have huge Asian and other foreign student enrollments and graduates (with those folks generally preferring soccer and basketball over American football) might be a factor. Perhaps I'm wrong.


Also, the PAC-12 does not have high population compared to the other conferences.

Total Population of States with Schools in the Conference

ACC - 99.9 million (not counting Notre Dame)
SEC - 99.2 million
Big 10 - 85.4 million (also has schools right outside New York City and DC)
Pac 12 - 67.6 million
Big 12 - 40.8 million

Also much like the ACC, big parts of PAC states do not have a local PAC team. San Diego, the Central Coast, the Central Valley, everything between Sacramento and the Oregon border.

The PAC's population is deceiving. U.S.C / U.C.L.A./California/Stanford have much denser populations within their immediate areas than most on the East Coast. I agree that Oregon, Arizona, Utah and Colorado are much less dense and that Washington benefits from Seattle much more than does Washington State. But the failure to gain a significant viewer following is nonetheless a problem especially considering their major media markets of Phoenix, Seattle, Denver, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, and to a lesser extent Sacramento. Portland, and Salt Lake City.
01-06-2020 04:10 PM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #46
RE: attendance by conference
(01-05-2020 01:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  New NCAA rule proposal: If you average less than 20k over a rolling 4-year period, you are demoted from FBS to FCS.

What in heaven's name does attendance have to do with FBS eligibility? For starters, programs have and will continue to goose numbers by any means necessary to get to whatever number you want, but more to the point, how does tickets distributed or even butts in seats relate to a program's ability to be an FBS member? Optics? If a program can be consistently competitive in a decent stadium and spends an appropriate amount of money relative to its status, who the hell cares if they have 15,000 or 30,000 as an attendance number? It's utterly irrelevant.
01-06-2020 04:15 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #47
RE: attendance by conference
(01-06-2020 04:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 01:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  New NCAA rule proposal: If you average less than 20k over a rolling 4-year period, you are demoted from FBS to FCS.

What in heaven's name does attendance have to do with FBS eligibility? For starters, programs have and will continue to goose numbers by any means necessary to get to whatever number you want, but more to the point, how does tickets distributed or even butts in seats relate to a program's ability to be an FBS member? Optics? If a program can be consistently competitive in a decent stadium and spends an appropriate amount of money relative to its status, who the hell cares if they have 15,000 or 30,000 as an attendance number? It's utterly irrelevant.

To me, it's the most relevant thing. It's a joke to have fully-funded teams playing before nobody, that means the fan base of the school doesn't care so why should anyone else?

If you have no attendance, you are just spending money from somewhere to field an artificial team for who knows why? you might as well just conduct the games on an empty studio lot. Or better yet, to save anyone from getting hurt and on scholarships, just use CGI to simulate a game for XBox or streaming.

I mean, without attendance, what on earth is the point?
01-06-2020 04:25 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #48
RE: attendance by conference
(01-06-2020 03:21 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 02:40 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 11:21 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  Big 12 Fans Narrative: Our schools make more money than your schools do...

Anyone with a brain that apparently doesn’t believe big 12 propaganda:

If you have a pie and cut it into 10 pieces versus cutting the same pie into 12 or 14 pieces,
the 10 pieces are going to always be bigger.

Obviously not a business major.

Most revenue is internally generated. And the Big 12 makes more as shown by the average attendance. As for the TV piece, the Big 12 is selling less inventory, so its not like dividing a fixed amount fewer ways.

The problem with common sense is it’s no longer so common.

Your initial post listed the attendance median for all conferences. In this the case the pie is attendance. If the big 12 added 4 programs to have the same number members as The ACC, Big Ten and SEC the median attendance would be lower. It’s not rocket science.

No matter the big 12 is dead conference walking. You should hook up with Jeremy and you could compare big 12 puff pieces... lol.

The big 12 will soon be parted out like an old chevy. I for one will enjoy watching the ba$tards at WVU squirm and whine...lol

Newbies...

The “death” of the Big XII has been greatly exaggerated and it won’t happen anytime soon. If I was a fan of an ACC school, I would be praying the ACCN starts delivering fast because the schools with options like Clemson and Florida State will start getting anxious the revenue gap with their SEC in-state schools will be wide enough to challenge the GOR. Louisville won’t be that lucky on the next realignment. The Big Ten won’t consider you, the SEC already has a presence in Kentucky and the Pac-12 is too far. It’d be ironic Louisville begging West Virginia and the Big XII for a spot.

You are correct, the Big 12 won't officially die before 2025.
01-06-2020 04:33 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #49
RE: attendance by conference
(01-06-2020 04:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 01:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  New NCAA rule proposal: If you average less than 20k over a rolling 4-year period, you are demoted from FBS to FCS.

What in heaven's name does attendance have to do with FBS eligibility? For starters, programs have and will continue to goose numbers by any means necessary to get to whatever number you want, but more to the point, how does tickets distributed or even butts in seats relate to a program's ability to be an FBS member? Optics? If a program can be consistently competitive in a decent stadium and spends an appropriate amount of money relative to its status, who the hell cares if they have 15,000 or 30,000 as an attendance number? It's utterly irrelevant.

+1
01-06-2020 05:06 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: attendance by conference
(01-06-2020 04:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 01:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  New NCAA rule proposal: If you average less than 20k over a rolling 4-year period, you are demoted from FBS to FCS.

What in heaven's name does attendance have to do with FBS eligibility? For starters, programs have and will continue to goose numbers by any means necessary to get to whatever number you want, but more to the point, how does tickets distributed or even butts in seats relate to a program's ability to be an FBS member? Optics? If a program can be consistently competitive in a decent stadium and spends an appropriate amount of money relative to its status, who the hell cares if they have 15,000 or 30,000 as an attendance number? It's utterly irrelevant.

To me, it's the most relevant thing. It's a joke to have fully-funded teams playing before nobody, that means the fan base of the school doesn't care so why should anyone else?

If you have no attendance, you are just spending money from somewhere to field an artificial team for who knows why? you might as well just conduct the games on an empty studio lot. Or better yet, to save anyone from getting hurt and on scholarships, just use CGI to simulate a game for XBox or streaming.

I mean, without attendance, what on earth is the point?

"Attendance" doesn't mean butts in seats anyway.
01-06-2020 05:07 PM
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kevinwmsn Offline
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Post: #51
RE: attendance by conference
(01-04-2020 10:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  4 year average attendance by conference

SEC 74,881
Big 10 65,213
Big 12 57,068
ACC 48,417
Pac 12 48,025
AAC 29,407
MWC 23,895
CUSA 19,324
SB 18,012
MAC 15,485
IND. 38,497

4 year median attendance by conference

SEC 81,084

Big 10 57,134
Big 12 55,216

ACC 47,065
Pac 12 46,783

AAC 31,927

MWC 22,684
CUSA 19,607

SB 16,711
MAC 16,372

IND. 31,565

Biggest % gaps in median:
Pac 12 to AAC 46.5%
SEC to Big 10 41.9%
AAC to MWC 40.7%
Big 12 to ACC 17.3%
CUSA to SB 17.3%

Difference shouldn't be that much since Idaho is no longer in the Sun Belt conference.
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2020 05:17 PM by kevinwmsn.)
01-06-2020 05:16 PM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #52
RE: attendance by conference
(01-06-2020 02:40 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 11:21 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  Big 12 Fans Narrative: Our schools make more money than your schools do...

Anyone with a brain that apparently doesn’t believe big 12 propaganda:

If you have a pie and cut it into 10 pieces versus cutting the same pie into 12 or 14 pieces,
the 10 pieces are going to always be bigger.

Obviously not a business major.

Most revenue is internally generated. And the Big 12 makes more as shown by the average attendance. As for the TV piece, the Big 12 is selling less inventory, so its not like dividing a fixed amount fewer ways.

The problem with common sense is it’s no longer so common.

Your initial post listed the attendance median for all conferences. In this the case the pie is attendance. If the big 12 added 4 programs to have the same number members as The ACC, Big Ten and SEC the median attendance would be lower. It’s not rocket science.

No matter the big 12 is dead conference walking. You should hook up with Jeremy and you could compare big 12 puff pieces... lol.

The big 12 will soon be parted out like an old chevy. I for one will enjoy watching the ba$tards at WVU squirm and whine...lol

Newbies...

Louisville is a newbie and you hate it.

If the Pac 12 or ACC added 4 AAC/MWC schools, their average attendance and revenue would drop as well.
01-06-2020 05:50 PM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #53
RE: attendance by conference
(01-06-2020 04:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 01:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  New NCAA rule proposal: If you average less than 20k over a rolling 4-year period, you are demoted from FBS to FCS.

What in heaven's name does attendance have to do with FBS eligibility? For starters, programs have and will continue to goose numbers by any means necessary to get to whatever number you want, but more to the point, how does tickets distributed or even butts in seats relate to a program's ability to be an FBS member? Optics? If a program can be consistently competitive in a decent stadium and spends an appropriate amount of money relative to its status, who the hell cares if they have 15,000 or 30,000 as an attendance number? It's utterly irrelevant.

To me, it's the most relevant thing. It's a joke to have fully-funded teams playing before nobody, that means the fan base of the school doesn't care so why should anyone else?

If you have no attendance, you are just spending money from somewhere to field an artificial team for who knows why? you might as well just conduct the games on an empty studio lot. Or better yet, to save anyone from getting hurt and on scholarships, just use CGI to simulate a game for XBox or streaming.

I mean, without attendance, what on earth is the point?

There's more than one way to gauge program interest besides the nebulous concept of NCAA-recorded attendance. TV ratings, donations, booster-club memberships. I'm not going to insult you by saying that a school with attendance averages above 100,000 is fundamentally no different than one with averages below 20,000, but that's an effect, not a cause, of a program's strength, and not the primary one.

Ultimately, fans don't win games, they don't boost a school's academic credentials, and their attendance or lack thereof alone won't cause a program to fall below standard. If an FBS program is struggling, it won't *just* be because they don't meet an attendance benchmark. They'll have other issues more pressing, even if it's not as publicly evident.
01-06-2020 07:09 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #54
RE: attendance by conference
(01-06-2020 05:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 01:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  New NCAA rule proposal: If you average less than 20k over a rolling 4-year period, you are demoted from FBS to FCS.

What in heaven's name does attendance have to do with FBS eligibility? For starters, programs have and will continue to goose numbers by any means necessary to get to whatever number you want, but more to the point, how does tickets distributed or even butts in seats relate to a program's ability to be an FBS member? Optics? If a program can be consistently competitive in a decent stadium and spends an appropriate amount of money relative to its status, who the hell cares if they have 15,000 or 30,000 as an attendance number? It's utterly irrelevant.

To me, it's the most relevant thing. It's a joke to have fully-funded teams playing before nobody, that means the fan base of the school doesn't care so why should anyone else?

If you have no attendance, you are just spending money from somewhere to field an artificial team for who knows why? you might as well just conduct the games on an empty studio lot. Or better yet, to save anyone from getting hurt and on scholarships, just use CGI to simulate a game for XBox or streaming.

I mean, without attendance, what on earth is the point?

"Attendance" doesn't mean butts in seats anyway.

We know that there are squishy ways to define attendance, but clearly the NCAA thinks it matters as there is an attendance requirement to become and remain FBS.

I think it is 15,000 once every two years. IIRC, NIU's official NCAA attendance has been 11,000 and 10,000 the last couple of years so how are the managing to remain FBS?

Conceptually, I don't see how a program can remain top-level with FCS level attendance. If you are drawing 13,000 a game, you aren't indicating any type of actual end-user support for the program. It's like the football team exists for its own sake not for the school community, as the community doesn't care. I don't see how that can be justified. Might as well take the team to E-sports.
01-07-2020 10:29 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #55
RE: attendance by conference
(01-06-2020 07:09 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 01:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  New NCAA rule proposal: If you average less than 20k over a rolling 4-year period, you are demoted from FBS to FCS.

What in heaven's name does attendance have to do with FBS eligibility? For starters, programs have and will continue to goose numbers by any means necessary to get to whatever number you want, but more to the point, how does tickets distributed or even butts in seats relate to a program's ability to be an FBS member? Optics? If a program can be consistently competitive in a decent stadium and spends an appropriate amount of money relative to its status, who the hell cares if they have 15,000 or 30,000 as an attendance number? It's utterly irrelevant.

To me, it's the most relevant thing. It's a joke to have fully-funded teams playing before nobody, that means the fan base of the school doesn't care so why should anyone else?

If you have no attendance, you are just spending money from somewhere to field an artificial team for who knows why? you might as well just conduct the games on an empty studio lot. Or better yet, to save anyone from getting hurt and on scholarships, just use CGI to simulate a game for XBox or streaming.

I mean, without attendance, what on earth is the point?

There's more than one way to gauge program interest besides the nebulous concept of NCAA-recorded attendance. TV ratings, donations, booster-club memberships. I'm not going to insult you by saying that a school with attendance averages above 100,000 is fundamentally no different than one with averages below 20,000, but that's an effect, not a cause, of a program's strength, and not the primary one.

Ultimately, fans don't win games, they don't boost a school's academic credentials, and their attendance or lack thereof alone won't cause a program to fall below standard. If an FBS program is struggling, it won't *just* be because they don't meet an attendance benchmark. They'll have other issues more pressing, even if it's not as publicly evident.

Attendance is a 'nebulous' concept, but let's face it - to the extent that it is, it is because universities have made it nebulous by coming up with clever ways to cook their books so as to present a better image of the program and to stay technically in compliance with FBS requirements. It doesn't have to be that way, if everyone is honest and third-party auditors tally the numbers.

As for other ways to measure a program, you mentioned TV ratings, donations, and booster members, I seriously doubt that the bottom-level scroungers do well on any of them either, do you? And that's even if we grant their validity.

As for your second statement, true, fans don't win games, but what does winning games matter if it happens before no attendees? What's the point of playing the games? At that point the football team's existence is basically self-referential. Having the team is an end in itself, an absurd situation. Again, might as well play them on an ESPN studio lot with canned applause, or else convert the real football team to an E-team for Playstation 5 or whatever.

What other valid standard for FBS should there be other than real attendance? I just don't see how a program whose attendance overlaps with FCS attendance can claim to be in the same level as ones that average 2x, 3x, 4x the attendance.
01-07-2020 10:36 AM
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NIU007 Offline
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RE: attendance by conference
(01-07-2020 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 05:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 01:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  New NCAA rule proposal: If you average less than 20k over a rolling 4-year period, you are demoted from FBS to FCS.

What in heaven's name does attendance have to do with FBS eligibility? For starters, programs have and will continue to goose numbers by any means necessary to get to whatever number you want, but more to the point, how does tickets distributed or even butts in seats relate to a program's ability to be an FBS member? Optics? If a program can be consistently competitive in a decent stadium and spends an appropriate amount of money relative to its status, who the hell cares if they have 15,000 or 30,000 as an attendance number? It's utterly irrelevant.

To me, it's the most relevant thing. It's a joke to have fully-funded teams playing before nobody, that means the fan base of the school doesn't care so why should anyone else?

If you have no attendance, you are just spending money from somewhere to field an artificial team for who knows why? you might as well just conduct the games on an empty studio lot. Or better yet, to save anyone from getting hurt and on scholarships, just use CGI to simulate a game for XBox or streaming.

I mean, without attendance, what on earth is the point?

"Attendance" doesn't mean butts in seats anyway.

We know that there are squishy ways to define attendance, but clearly the NCAA thinks it matters as there is an attendance requirement to become and remain FBS.

I think it is 15,000 once every two years. IIRC, NIU's official NCAA attendance has been 11,000 and 10,000 the last couple of years so how are the managing to remain FBS?

Conceptually, I don't see how a program can remain top-level with FCS level attendance. If you are drawing 13,000 a game, you aren't indicating any type of actual end-user support for the program. It's like the football team exists for its own sake not for the school community, as the community doesn't care. I don't see how that can be justified. Might as well take the team to E-sports.

If NIU has less attendance now they have the conference to blame, at least in part. The MAC apparently only cares about the ESPN money, they don't care about actual attendance at the games.

And getting 13,000 fans in November in northern Illinois is a little different than getting 13,000 fans in Florida.
01-07-2020 10:43 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #57
RE: attendance by conference
(01-07-2020 10:43 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 05:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  What in heaven's name does attendance have to do with FBS eligibility? For starters, programs have and will continue to goose numbers by any means necessary to get to whatever number you want, but more to the point, how does tickets distributed or even butts in seats relate to a program's ability to be an FBS member? Optics? If a program can be consistently competitive in a decent stadium and spends an appropriate amount of money relative to its status, who the hell cares if they have 15,000 or 30,000 as an attendance number? It's utterly irrelevant.

To me, it's the most relevant thing. It's a joke to have fully-funded teams playing before nobody, that means the fan base of the school doesn't care so why should anyone else?

If you have no attendance, you are just spending money from somewhere to field an artificial team for who knows why? you might as well just conduct the games on an empty studio lot. Or better yet, to save anyone from getting hurt and on scholarships, just use CGI to simulate a game for XBox or streaming.

I mean, without attendance, what on earth is the point?

"Attendance" doesn't mean butts in seats anyway.

We know that there are squishy ways to define attendance, but clearly the NCAA thinks it matters as there is an attendance requirement to become and remain FBS.

I think it is 15,000 once every two years. IIRC, NIU's official NCAA attendance has been 11,000 and 10,000 the last couple of years so how are the managing to remain FBS?

Conceptually, I don't see how a program can remain top-level with FCS level attendance. If you are drawing 13,000 a game, you aren't indicating any type of actual end-user support for the program. It's like the football team exists for its own sake not for the school community, as the community doesn't care. I don't see how that can be justified. Might as well take the team to E-sports.

If NIU has less attendance now they have the conference to blame, at least in part. The MAC apparently only cares about the ESPN money, they don't care about actual attendance at the games.

And getting 13,000 fans in November in northern Illinois is a little different than getting 13,000 fans in Florida.

Yes, in November that is the case. But what about September? northern Illinois probably beautiful 70s at that time, but in Florida it is still 90+, which is hell when you are exposed to it for hours outdoors.

I've attended football games where the temperature was as low as 17 and as high as 93. While both were challenges, I'd prefer 17. That was uncomfortable for sure, but for the most part I was able to bundle against it effectively (sure wish I'd worn lined boots not sneakers, LOL). But when it is hot outside, there's no way to mitigate it.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2020 10:53 AM by quo vadis.)
01-07-2020 10:51 AM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: attendance by conference
(01-07-2020 10:51 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 10:43 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 05:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it's the most relevant thing. It's a joke to have fully-funded teams playing before nobody, that means the fan base of the school doesn't care so why should anyone else?

If you have no attendance, you are just spending money from somewhere to field an artificial team for who knows why? you might as well just conduct the games on an empty studio lot. Or better yet, to save anyone from getting hurt and on scholarships, just use CGI to simulate a game for XBox or streaming.

I mean, without attendance, what on earth is the point?

"Attendance" doesn't mean butts in seats anyway.

We know that there are squishy ways to define attendance, but clearly the NCAA thinks it matters as there is an attendance requirement to become and remain FBS.

I think it is 15,000 once every two years. IIRC, NIU's official NCAA attendance has been 11,000 and 10,000 the last couple of years so how are the managing to remain FBS?

Conceptually, I don't see how a program can remain top-level with FCS level attendance. If you are drawing 13,000 a game, you aren't indicating any type of actual end-user support for the program. It's like the football team exists for its own sake not for the school community, as the community doesn't care. I don't see how that can be justified. Might as well take the team to E-sports.

If NIU has less attendance now they have the conference to blame, at least in part. The MAC apparently only cares about the ESPN money, they don't care about actual attendance at the games.

And getting 13,000 fans in November in northern Illinois is a little different than getting 13,000 fans in Florida.

Yes, in November that is the case. But what about September? northern Illinois probably beautiful 70s at that time, but in Florida it is still 90+, which is hell when you are exposed to it for hours outdoors.

I've attended football games where the temperature was as low as 17 and as high as 93. While both were challenges, I'd prefer 17. That was uncomfortable for sure, but for the most part I was able to bundle against it effectively (sure wish I'd worn lined boots not sneakers, LOL). But when it is hot outside, there's no way to mitigate it.

This year we didn't have any September home games. We had a home game against FCS on Aug 31, and it rained.

I am still at the games with crummy weather, but it's harder to get a lot of more casual fans.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2020 11:07 AM by NIU007.)
01-07-2020 11:04 AM
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mturn017 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: attendance by conference
(01-07-2020 10:36 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 07:09 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-05-2020 01:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  New NCAA rule proposal: If you average less than 20k over a rolling 4-year period, you are demoted from FBS to FCS.

What in heaven's name does attendance have to do with FBS eligibility? For starters, programs have and will continue to goose numbers by any means necessary to get to whatever number you want, but more to the point, how does tickets distributed or even butts in seats relate to a program's ability to be an FBS member? Optics? If a program can be consistently competitive in a decent stadium and spends an appropriate amount of money relative to its status, who the hell cares if they have 15,000 or 30,000 as an attendance number? It's utterly irrelevant.

To me, it's the most relevant thing. It's a joke to have fully-funded teams playing before nobody, that means the fan base of the school doesn't care so why should anyone else?

If you have no attendance, you are just spending money from somewhere to field an artificial team for who knows why? you might as well just conduct the games on an empty studio lot. Or better yet, to save anyone from getting hurt and on scholarships, just use CGI to simulate a game for XBox or streaming.

I mean, without attendance, what on earth is the point?

There's more than one way to gauge program interest besides the nebulous concept of NCAA-recorded attendance. TV ratings, donations, booster-club memberships. I'm not going to insult you by saying that a school with attendance averages above 100,000 is fundamentally no different than one with averages below 20,000, but that's an effect, not a cause, of a program's strength, and not the primary one.

Ultimately, fans don't win games, they don't boost a school's academic credentials, and their attendance or lack thereof alone won't cause a program to fall below standard. If an FBS program is struggling, it won't *just* be because they don't meet an attendance benchmark. They'll have other issues more pressing, even if it's not as publicly evident.

Attendance is a 'nebulous' concept, but let's face it - to the extent that it is, it is because universities have made it nebulous by coming up with clever ways to cook their books so as to present a better image of the program and to stay technically in compliance with FBS requirements. It doesn't have to be that way, if everyone is honest and third-party auditors tally the numbers.

As for other ways to measure a program, you mentioned TV ratings, donations, and booster members, I seriously doubt that the bottom-level scroungers do well on any of them either, do you? And that's even if we grant their validity.

As for your second statement, true, fans don't win games, but what does winning games matter if it happens before no attendees? What's the point of playing the games? At that point the football team's existence is basically self-referential. Having the team is an end in itself, an absurd situation. Again, might as well play them on an ESPN studio lot with canned applause, or else convert the real football team to an E-team for Playstation 5 or whatever.

What other valid standard for FBS should there be other than real attendance? I just don't see how a program whose attendance overlaps with FCS attendance can claim to be in the same level as ones that average 2x, 3x, 4x the attendance.

Nebulous indeed. How does USF post over 30K in attendance and have less than 3.2M in ticket sales? Our stadium didn't even hold 20K in that year and we had greater ticket revenue and over 3 times the amount of donations as the Bulls. If USF hadn't vaulted into the BE and gotten the TV revenues and later the exit fees they'd be middling to bottom in G5 resources. Your team should be in FCS. The only support evident is coming from TV networks. [Image: Crim-XCz-Xg-AAn-LVK.png]
01-07-2020 11:13 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #60
RE: attendance by conference
(01-07-2020 11:13 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 10:36 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 07:09 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  What in heaven's name does attendance have to do with FBS eligibility? For starters, programs have and will continue to goose numbers by any means necessary to get to whatever number you want, but more to the point, how does tickets distributed or even butts in seats relate to a program's ability to be an FBS member? Optics? If a program can be consistently competitive in a decent stadium and spends an appropriate amount of money relative to its status, who the hell cares if they have 15,000 or 30,000 as an attendance number? It's utterly irrelevant.

To me, it's the most relevant thing. It's a joke to have fully-funded teams playing before nobody, that means the fan base of the school doesn't care so why should anyone else?

If you have no attendance, you are just spending money from somewhere to field an artificial team for who knows why? you might as well just conduct the games on an empty studio lot. Or better yet, to save anyone from getting hurt and on scholarships, just use CGI to simulate a game for XBox or streaming.

I mean, without attendance, what on earth is the point?

There's more than one way to gauge program interest besides the nebulous concept of NCAA-recorded attendance. TV ratings, donations, booster-club memberships. I'm not going to insult you by saying that a school with attendance averages above 100,000 is fundamentally no different than one with averages below 20,000, but that's an effect, not a cause, of a program's strength, and not the primary one.

Ultimately, fans don't win games, they don't boost a school's academic credentials, and their attendance or lack thereof alone won't cause a program to fall below standard. If an FBS program is struggling, it won't *just* be because they don't meet an attendance benchmark. They'll have other issues more pressing, even if it's not as publicly evident.

Attendance is a 'nebulous' concept, but let's face it - to the extent that it is, it is because universities have made it nebulous by coming up with clever ways to cook their books so as to present a better image of the program and to stay technically in compliance with FBS requirements. It doesn't have to be that way, if everyone is honest and third-party auditors tally the numbers.

As for other ways to measure a program, you mentioned TV ratings, donations, and booster members, I seriously doubt that the bottom-level scroungers do well on any of them either, do you? And that's even if we grant their validity.

As for your second statement, true, fans don't win games, but what does winning games matter if it happens before no attendees? What's the point of playing the games? At that point the football team's existence is basically self-referential. Having the team is an end in itself, an absurd situation. Again, might as well play them on an ESPN studio lot with canned applause, or else convert the real football team to an E-team for Playstation 5 or whatever.

What other valid standard for FBS should there be other than real attendance? I just don't see how a program whose attendance overlaps with FCS attendance can claim to be in the same level as ones that average 2x, 3x, 4x the attendance.

Nebulous indeed. How does USF post over 30K in attendance and have less than 3.2M in ticket sales? Our stadium didn't even hold 20K in that year and we had greater ticket revenue and over 3 times the amount of donations as the Bulls. If USF hadn't vaulted into the BE and gotten the TV revenues and later the exit fees they'd be middling to bottom in G5 resources. Your team should be in FCS. The only support evident is coming from TV networks.

You make a good point about ticket sales - you can sell a lot of tickets if you price them very low, effectively subsidizing the sale from other money, that's another way to cook the books.

As for ODU vs USF, are you including sales of all athletic tickets or just football? I'm sure ODU sells a lot more basketball tickets but that's not relevant to a discussion of football program status. If you guys did earn more football ticket revenue than USF, well congratulations.

FWIW, I am not exempting USF from my proposal at all. The 20,000 standard should be the same for everyone and books should be uncooked, audited by third parties. If my Bulls can't meet the standard then yes, we should be dropped down too.

That said, USF plays at a stadium owned by another entity, the Tampa Sports Authority, so IIRC, our "butts in seats" numbers are typically more valid than those of schools that own and thus control their stadiums, because the TSA independently counts attendees at USF games and can report those numbers without USF being able to massage them.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2020 11:42 AM by quo vadis.)
01-07-2020 11:32 AM
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