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MotoRocket Offline
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WRESTLING AT UT?
This got way too long....

This topic comes up every so often, so I thought I would revisit it. If ever there was an opportune time for UT to consider a D-I wrestling program, now would be that time. The MAC currently has 15 members, (most are affiliate members for wrestling only), but the MAC will likely provide close to the 3rd most wrestlers in the NCAA tourney in 2020

Also to consider is the fact that many very talented wrestlers are ending up without full scholarships (that is usually the case unless the wrestler is in the category of "5-star blue chipper, can't miss, junior Olympian caliber" (you get the idea). Teams can only offer 9.9 scholarships (not joking) - on a roster of 10 weight classes. That means back-ups and starters alike are only on partial scholarships. We could offer the second tier blue chippers full rides to get them to UT. Or we could easily fill a team just from transfers where guys are sitting out behind a newly recruited 5-star, blue chipper.... You do see a lot of guys going to the high academic schools in the East or to the military academies. More on that and the cost they take on as a separate topic.

Also consider that the recruiting reach does not need to be that far. So far, 42 Ohio high school wrestlers have committed to wrestle in college at predominantly D-I schools. Pa. has 63, Illinois 22, Michigan 15, Iowa 14, Indiana 10. That's 166 wrestlers going to college to wrestle within a radius of about 400 miles. Compare that to New Jersey 28, Calif. 23, New York 12, Florida 11, Missouri 11, (85 in total with no other states having more than 10). From a recruiting standpoint, we are pretty much in the center of the hotbed of wrestling. Toledo used to be considered one of the centers of international wrestling thanks to Scalzo, Torio, Wilson, Wojo, and others. There were a total of 17 World Cup tourneys held in Toledo at the Field House and Centennial Hall (prior to renaming to Savage). None since 1991, about the same time as Title IX hit and UT dropped wrestling. (Final season was 1993 or '94).

Toledo has also had NCAA finalists 7 times, and won the NCAA title 2 times (Wojo and Lanzi) Dick Wilson finished 2nd an incredible 3 times, and lost the title one of those years on the now defunct referee's criteria (a subjective measure by the ref as to who was the most aggressive of the two wrestlers in a tied match after overtime). Toledo also has had 22 All-Americans over the years, many coming from the Toledo area. 18 of those All-Americans finished in the top 4. No other sport at Toledo has had that level of success.

There are sports that probably should be dropped, simply because UT has never proven to be competitive in them - and likely that cost more money than wrestling.

Why not take this into consideration now? It seems the MAC is taking very positive steps to launch the conference further into one of the Top 3 to 5 conferences in the country. Why should Toledo not be among those teams? Under the new alignment with 15 teams, the MAC would have sent 48 wrestlers to the NCAA championships last year - that would be 4th most in the nation behind Big 10 (14 teams for 89 total), Big 12 (12 teams for 61 total), and the EIWA (17 teams for 54 total).

There is also a head coach consideration that would be a great fit for UT - Ross Thatcher. Not sure how viable it would be, but it is possible he would be interested. He would have an immediate impact on recruiting high caliber wrestlers to UT. He was a 2x state champ. in Ohio, wrestled in college at Penn State, wrestled internationally, and was an assistant at OSU when they won the NCAA title in 2015. My nephew's son wrestled for him in a couple of tourneys in Las Vegas and Atlantic City and had some practices with him at the ORTC in Columbus. His draw would not only be in Ohio, but also Pa. - and that would be the "honeypot" for recruiting. Of the 330 qualifiers for the 2019 NCAA tournament, 40% (128 wrestlers) came from Pa, Ohio, Mich., Indiana, and Illinois alone. New Jersey and New York are not that far away, and if those were added in, along with neighboring Kentucky's 2 qualifiers you would have 51.5% of all qualifiers from those 8 states alone.

Something to think about...
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2020 04:41 PM by MotoRocket.)
01-02-2020 04:34 PM
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DetroitRocket Offline
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
(01-02-2020 04:34 PM)MotoRocket Wrote:  This got way too long....

This topic comes up every so often, so I thought I would revisit it. If ever there was an opportune time for UT to consider a D-I wrestling program, now would be that time. The MAC currently has 15 members, (most are affiliate members for wrestling only), but the MAC will likely provide close to the 3rd most wrestlers in the NCAA tourney in 2020

Also to consider is the fact that many very talented wrestlers are ending up without full scholarships (that is usually the case unless the wrestler is in the category of "5-star blue chipper, can't miss, junior Olympian caliber" (you get the idea). Teams can only offer 9.9 scholarships (not joking) - on a roster of 10 weight classes. That means back-ups and starters alike are only on partial scholarships. We could offer the second tier blue chippers full rides to get them to UT. Or we could easily fill a team just from transfers where guys are sitting out behind a newly recruited 5-star, blue chipper.... You do see a lot of guys going to the high academic schools in the East or to the military academies. More on that and the cost they take on as a separate topic.

Also consider that the recruiting reach does not need to be that far. So far, 42 Ohio high school wrestlers have committed to wrestle in college at predominantly D-I schools. Pa. has 63, Illinois 22, Michigan 15, Iowa 14, Indiana 10. That's 166 wrestlers going to college to wrestle within a radius of about 400 miles. Compare that to New Jersey 28, Calif. 23, New York 12, Florida 11, Missouri 11, (85 in total with no other states having more than 10). From a recruiting standpoint, we are pretty much in the center of the hotbed of wrestling. Toledo used to be considered one of the centers of international wrestling thanks to Scalzo, Torio, Wilson, Wojo, and others. There were a total of 17 World Cup tourneys held in Toledo at the Field House and Centennial Hall (prior to renaming to Savage). None since 1991, about the same time as Title IX hit and UT dropped wrestling. (Final season was 1993 or '94).

Toledo has also had NCAA finalists 7 times, and won the NCAA title 2 times (Wojo and Lanzi) Dick Wilson finished 2nd an incredible 3 times, and lost the title one of those years on the now defunct referee's criteria (a subjective measure by the ref as to who was the most aggressive of the two wrestlers in a tied match after overtime). Toledo also has had 22 All-Americans over the years, many coming from the Toledo area. 18 of those All-Americans finished in the top 4. No other sport at Toledo has had that level of success.

There are sports that probably should be dropped, simply because UT has never proven to be competitive in them - and likely that cost more money than wrestling.

Why not take this into consideration now? It seems the MAC is taking very positive steps to launch the conference further into one of the Top 3 to 5 conferences in the country. Why should Toledo not be among those teams? Under the new alignment with 15 teams, the MAC would have sent 48 wrestlers to the NCAA championships last year - that would be 4th most in the nation behind Big 10 (14 teams for 89 total), Big 12 (12 teams for 61 total), and the EIWA (17 teams for 54 total).

There is also a head coach consideration that would be a great fit for UT - Ross Thatcher. Not sure how viable it would be, but it is possible he would be interested. He would have an immediate impact on recruiting high caliber wrestlers to UT. He was a 2x state champ. in Ohio, wrestled in college at Penn State, wrestled internationally, and was an assistant at OSU when they won the NCAA title in 2015. My nephew's son wrestled for him in a couple of tourneys in Las Vegas and Atlantic City and had some practices with him at the ORTC in Columbus. His draw would not only be in Ohio, but also Pa. - and that would be the "honeypot" for recruiting. Of the 330 qualifiers for the 2019 NCAA tournament, 40% (128 wrestlers) came from Pa, Ohio, Mich., Indiana, and Illinois alone. New Jersey and New York are not that far away, and if those were added in, along with neighboring Kentucky's 2 qualifiers you would have 51.5% of all qualifiers from those 8 states alone.

Something to think about...

Would love to see it, but we would have to add a women's sport, build facilities and pay for it. For a school that is losing money in athletics already, not sure how you do it. If it was going to happen, baseball would have been dropped when the coach was fired. Now there's a dud of a sport. Not one MAC championship in over 60 years!
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2020 05:52 PM by DetroitRocket.)
01-02-2020 05:45 PM
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H2Oville Rocket Offline
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
I’ve heard from several sources that men’sctrack will debut in 2021. Who knows?
01-02-2020 08:09 PM
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indianasniff Offline
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
Men’s track will help bring athletes for football. Pair it with women’s lacrosse that can play on soccer field. Like that more than wrestling
01-02-2020 08:29 PM
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MotoRocket Offline
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
(01-02-2020 05:45 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  
(01-02-2020 04:34 PM)MotoRocket Wrote:  This got way too long....

This topic comes up every so often, so I thought I would revisit it. If ever there was an opportune time for UT to consider a D-I wrestling program, now would be that time. The MAC currently has 15 members, (most are affiliate members for wrestling only), but the MAC will likely provide close to the 3rd most wrestlers in the NCAA tourney in 2020

Also to consider is the fact that many very talented wrestlers are ending up without full scholarships (that is usually the case unless the wrestler is in the category of "5-star blue chipper, can't miss, junior Olympian caliber" (you get the idea). Teams can only offer 9.9 scholarships (not joking) - on a roster of 10 weight classes. That means back-ups and starters alike are only on partial scholarships. We could offer the second tier blue chippers full rides to get them to UT. Or we could easily fill a team just from transfers where guys are sitting out behind a newly recruited 5-star, blue chipper.... You do see a lot of guys going to the high academic schools in the East or to the military academies. More on that and the cost they take on as a separate topic.

Also consider that the recruiting reach does not need to be that far. So far, 42 Ohio high school wrestlers have committed to wrestle in college at predominantly D-I schools. Pa. has 63, Illinois 22, Michigan 15, Iowa 14, Indiana 10. That's 166 wrestlers going to college to wrestle within a radius of about 400 miles. Compare that to New Jersey 28, Calif. 23, New York 12, Florida 11, Missouri 11, (85 in total with no other states having more than 10). From a recruiting standpoint, we are pretty much in the center of the hotbed of wrestling. Toledo used to be considered one of the centers of international wrestling thanks to Scalzo, Torio, Wilson, Wojo, and others. There were a total of 17 World Cup tourneys held in Toledo at the Field House and Centennial Hall (prior to renaming to Savage). None since 1991, about the same time as Title IX hit and UT dropped wrestling. (Final season was 1993 or '94).

Toledo has also had NCAA finalists 7 times, and won the NCAA title 2 times (Wojo and Lanzi) Dick Wilson finished 2nd an incredible 3 times, and lost the title one of those years on the now defunct referee's criteria (a subjective measure by the ref as to who was the most aggressive of the two wrestlers in a tied match after overtime). Toledo also has had 22 All-Americans over the years, many coming from the Toledo area. 18 of those All-Americans finished in the top 4. No other sport at Toledo has had that level of success.

There are sports that probably should be dropped, simply because UT has never proven to be competitive in them - and likely that cost more money than wrestling.

Why not take this into consideration now? It seems the MAC is taking very positive steps to launch the conference further into one of the Top 3 to 5 conferences in the country. Why should Toledo not be among those teams? Under the new alignment with 15 teams, the MAC would have sent 48 wrestlers to the NCAA championships last year - that would be 4th most in the nation behind Big 10 (14 teams for 89 total), Big 12 (12 teams for 61 total), and the EIWA (17 teams for 54 total).

There is also a head coach consideration that would be a great fit for UT - Ross Thatcher. Not sure how viable it would be, but it is possible he would be interested. He would have an immediate impact on recruiting high caliber wrestlers to UT. He was a 2x state champ. in Ohio, wrestled in college at Penn State, wrestled internationally, and was an assistant at OSU when they won the NCAA title in 2015. My nephew's son wrestled for him in a couple of tourneys in Las Vegas and Atlantic City and had some practices with him at the ORTC in Columbus. His draw would not only be in Ohio, but also Pa. - and that would be the "honeypot" for recruiting. Of the 330 qualifiers for the 2019 NCAA tournament, 40% (128 wrestlers) came from Pa, Ohio, Mich., Indiana, and Illinois alone. New Jersey and New York are not that far away, and if those were added in, along with neighboring Kentucky's 2 qualifiers you would have 51.5% of all qualifiers from those 8 states alone.

Something to think about...

Would love to see it, but we would have to add a women's sport, build facilities and pay for it. For a school that is losing money in athletics already, not sure how you do it. If it was going to happen, baseball would have been dropped when the coach was fired. Now there's a dud of a sport. Not one MAC championship in over 60 years!


I was thinking more along the lines of dropping baseball than adding another women's sport. I do think there is somewhat of a resurgence in wrestling because of the interest in MMA. A few universities have added wrestling after being away from it for a many years. No facilities needed. Wrestling only needs mats and can use any of a number of already existing facilities. Keep in mind, UT has had wrestling as a club sport for many years. Have had a three time champ and finished 8th out of 77 teams in the national duals last year. Organization is called NCWA (National Collegiate Wrestling Association). So however that is being funded, would only require slightly more to move from the "club association" up to D-I. Traveling costs would likely increase and would have to pay more for coaching, but it is not an expensive sport. Scholarships are essentially a non-cash cost even if recorded as an athletic expense. Singlets and shoes are relatively cheap as far as equipment goes. Practice equipment would consist of old singlets, shorts, t-shirts, and old shoes. Add a varsity team at the D-I level and wrestlers will be busting the door down to get a shot to be on the team. Competing in the MAC would be an incentive for top level wrestlers not quite at the elite college level, but still want to compete and have a shot at the NCAA tourney every year.

To be progressive in the sport, could also field a women's team. There is a female on the UT club team that finished 2nd in the nation in the 19U Nuway tournament (female division). This is a growing sport for women and the US is one of the top teams in the world - probably second only to Japan. I believe women only have 6 or 7 weight classes.
Why not?

This is a very aggressive view of what could happen - but why not try to envision it first and see what is possible?
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2020 11:14 PM by MotoRocket.)
01-02-2020 10:48 PM
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inductchuck16 Offline
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
I like the idea of adding men's track, along with women's lacrosse. Those two sports seems more profitable and give UT a better chance at gaining national relevance through on-field success. Plus all the more reason to invest more into the soccer/track stadium. Adding those sports could help propel seating expansion and possibly the demolition of the outdated health ed center building. I could envision a new multi-purpose building in that coveted prime location.
01-03-2020 12:16 AM
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
(01-03-2020 12:16 AM)inductchuck16 Wrote:  I like the idea of adding men's track, along with women's lacrosse. Those two sports seems more profitable and give UT a better chance at gaining national relevance through on-field success. Plus all the more reason to invest more into the soccer/track stadium. Adding those sports could help propel seating expansion and possibly the demolition of the outdated health ed center building. I could envision a new multi-purpose building in that coveted prime location.

Like a small practice ice arena (seats 1,000 to 1,500) for the men's and women's hockey teams...…. 05-stirthepot
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2020 08:51 AM by UTerry.)
01-03-2020 08:51 AM
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MotoRocket Offline
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
Just saw the OHSWCA (Ohio HS Wrestling Coaches Assoc.) is going to have the first ever female state wrestling competition this year. It is not sanctioned this year by the OHSAA, but is expected to be in 2-3 years. Need 150 schools participating. The plan is for 14 weight classes (from 101 to 235) and there will be no sectionals or district qualifying tourneys this year.

I only bring this up because girls wrestling is going like gangbusters across the country - some of it from the fact that girls have had success placing in state tourneys on the boys tournament - along with the success of the women's national team in the Olympics and World Cup competitions. I saw a girl wrestle last year in Atlantic City in the 9U youth competiton and she won both the girls and the boys open competition. Her brother happens to be ranked #2 in the country at 113lbs.

Maybe it's not such a wild idea to think about a men's and women's team at UT. Why not get in quickly on women's wrestling and develop a powerhouse early on. Then could have a men's team and not have to worry about Title IX implications. Could probably raise a lot of funding from wrestling organizations around the region of NW Ohio.

For an idea of how women's wrestling is progressing, here is a video of Helen Maroulis, now a 2X Olympic champ. for the USA. This is freestyle wrestling vs. Collegiate/Folkstyle used in HS and College wrestling. Not sure if this is proper terminology for a female wrestler, but Maroulis is a stud in her weight class on an international level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramT39KKslU
01-04-2020 12:15 AM
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
(01-03-2020 08:51 AM)UTerry Wrote:  
(01-03-2020 12:16 AM)inductchuck16 Wrote:  I like the idea of adding men's track, along with women's lacrosse. Those two sports seems more profitable and give UT a better chance at gaining national relevance through on-field success. Plus all the more reason to invest more into the soccer/track stadium. Adding those sports could help propel seating expansion and possibly the demolition of the outdated health ed center building. I could envision a new multi-purpose building in that coveted prime location.

Like a small practice ice arena (seats 1,000 to 1,500) for the men's and women's hockey teams...…. 05-stirthepot

Hockey would cost too much $$$ with numerous scholarships to dole out...
Even then, if we met title 9 regulations, a bare bones pole barn facility would be several million, plus fans may pull away from mens and women’s b-ball games to support a hockey program on campus... Then there is competition from the Walleye...
01-04-2020 02:12 PM
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
Can we please put to bed the idea that UT is going to expand the Athletic Department with more non-revenue sports when it just ran a deficit of $21,000,000+ this past year.
01-05-2020 08:47 AM
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MotoRocket Offline
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
(01-05-2020 08:47 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Can we please put to bed the idea that UT is going to expand the Athletic Department with more non-revenue sports when it just ran a deficit of $21,000,000+ this past year.

Maybe we should be looking at what is causing the $21M deficit and cut the non-revenue sports that are contributing the most to the losses. Why do we have some of the sports we have now - especially where they have rarely been competitive? Who is protecting these sports - or are they not being challenged at all?

How do schools that have some of the lowest revenues in football (but likely all the same costs - except for the head coaching position) able to fund wrestling and men's track? What did they cut out? Why? Of the 6 MAC schools in Ohio (Kent, Ohio, BG, Toledo, Akron, Miami), only 2 have wrestling teams. Those 2 - along with Ohio State and Cleveland State, are the only Division I wrestling programs in Ohio. Pennsylvania has 11 universities with D-I wrestling. Any doubt as to why they produce the most NCAA champs, All_Americans, and Qualifiers?? Ohio is now dropping to a very distant 2nd place in talent being produced - and being passed by Illinois and New Jersey. We can get that talent - and grow more talent. North Carolina has 7 D-I teams and Virginia has 5 - with most of that talent being imported from outside the state. Virginia Tech has been getting a direct pipeline of talent from St. Paris, Ohio (Graham Local) NY also has 7 Universities with D-I wrestling.

As I mentioned in this post, we have a great opportunity to excel in a sport we had been very good at in the past.

BTW - where did you get the report on the $21M deficit from I'll look for it, but if you have a link, I'd like to see it and found out some of the details behind that number and if there is any breakdown provided. I spent my entire career in finance so I think I could analyze it pretty quickly - depending on how much info is available. Should be in the public domain, just a question of finding it. I have a feeling there is a lot of cost allocations charged to athletics although the incremental cash costs to the university are minimal.
01-06-2020 10:56 PM
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

As you can see, we pulled $10.5M from Student Fees and $10.3M from Institution Operating Budgets to float a break-even this past year, thus we run a $20.8M deficit within the department.

It isn't about what the other schools are doing, as all MAC schools are running similar deficits, they're just operating different sports or paying their coaches less. Truth be told, I along with many on here think these numbers show more about the ability for our AD in general to survive for another decade or so instead of what sports will, especially when paired with the Institution's general budget shortfall.
01-07-2020 07:54 AM
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
One aspect of the athletic budget is the cost of scholarships.
The athletic department actually pays/transfers money to the finance/bursars office for the tuition of all athletes on scholarship in all sports.
Understandable.....
But I found out some years ago is that if an athlete is from out of state (or out of the country), the athletic department must also pay out of state of Ohio tuition for each one of those athletes.
Is this a UT only practice or done by all universities????
(note: seems like shuffling the shell game to me....)
How much would that cut off the athletic budget if all athletic scholarships were "classified" (not knowing a better word) as in state???
01-07-2020 08:40 AM
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
(01-07-2020 08:40 AM)UTerry Wrote:  One aspect of the athletic budget is the cost of scholarships.
The athletic department actually pays/transfers money to the finance/bursars office for the tuition of all athletes on scholarship in all sports.
Understandable.....
But I found out some years ago is that if an athlete is from out of state (or out of the country), the athletic department must also pay out of state of Ohio tuition for each one of those athletes.
Is this a UT only practice or done by all universities????
(note: seems like shuffling the shell game to me....)
How much would that cut off the athletic budget if all athletic scholarships were "classified" (not knowing a better word) as in state???

Nope, that's required by the NCAA. Any Full-pay scholarship limits must be paid as such (any that are partial awards can still collect other additional aid and are not allocated as full awards for the AD's budget purposes).
01-07-2020 09:17 AM
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MotoRocket Offline
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RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
(01-07-2020 09:17 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 08:40 AM)UTerry Wrote:  One aspect of the athletic budget is the cost of scholarships.
The athletic department actually pays/transfers money to the finance/bursars office for the tuition of all athletes on scholarship in all sports.
Understandable.....
But I found out some years ago is that if an athlete is from out of state (or out of the country), the athletic department must also pay out of state of Ohio tuition for each one of those athletes.
Is this a UT only practice or done by all universities????
(note: seems like shuffling the shell game to me....)
How much would that cut off the athletic budget if all athletic scholarships were "classified" (not knowing a better word) as in state???

Nope, that's required by the NCAA. Any Full-pay scholarship limits must be paid as such (any that are partial awards can still collect other additional aid and are not allocated as full awards for the AD's budget purposes).

This is exactly my point. The cash being paid from one fund to another fund is not an actual cost to the University. It may be a requirement of the NCAA, but from a purely budgeting process for the University, it needs to be understood to be just a shuffling of funds from one budget to another. The real costs of additional scholarships are only an issue if they bump out a student that is willing to pay for the classes that an athelete would take. If there are empty seats (available classroom space), the actual cost of an additional athlete taking that class is essentially negligible. Rules are rules and the capturing of those "costs" within the athletic budget is fine, but it should not be dictating decisions being taken. It is similar to the costs for depreciation of equipment purchased in prior years. It is a rule to capture those costs as part of the reporting process under GAAP (accounting rules) but using those "sunk costs" in the decision process for new business valuation can create a downward death spiral on decision making. It is called excess capacity and utilizing the equipment to it's fullest capacity without creating additional wear and tear on the equipment that is not being considered. The real issue is how you determine what is incremental usage - and if it can be repealed if full paying customers (students) are identified to take up that excess capacity - but are not allowed to because the incremental usage cannot be repealed.

The whole point is trying to understand what sports can enhance the University. If you look at the entire listing of Universities that have wrestling teams, it is safe to say that approx. 90% are considered to have high academic standards. Say what you will about the Big 10, but each and every University that comprises the 14 teams in the conference all have high academic standing. Missouri, another highly regarded University that is affiliated with the MAC - is the only SEC school to have a wrestling team. All of the Ivy League schools have a wrestling team. The same with the schools in the ACC (Duke, Virginia, Virginia Tech, UNC, NCSt, Pitt) that have wrestling teams. Unfortunately, Syracuse dumped wrestling despite a history of having individual champs (including Toledo's Mark Kerr). The military academies also have teams (Air Force, Navy, Army) The MAC has a reasonably good reputation for academics (although Miami does not have a team) and it's reputation has been enhanced by adding Missouri, Edinboro, George Mason, Clarion, Old Dominion, Rider, Lock Haven, et al as affiliate members. Then you have Stanford, Arizona State, Cal Poly, Cal State Bakersfield, and Oregon State all with teams. In the Southern Conference there is VMI, The Citadel, Davidson, and Gardner Webb all have teams. Arkansas has 1 team (Ark. Little Rock), Florida has 0, Mississippi has 0, Alabama has 0, Georgia has 0, SC has The Citadel (as mentioned above), Texas - with some highly regarded universities has 0 - and has exported some very good wrestlers (including 3x NCAA champ Bo Nickal at Penn State).

My point being that we would be in very good company by returning to wrestling, we could recruit very well, and the costs of doing so would be minimal, and if necessary - we could replace other sports that are more costly, have little to no interest by students or the community, and does nothing to enhance the reputation of the University. It should also be noted that the majority of the highly successful wrestlers are also very good students and often receive additional scholarship money from their academic reputations and accomplishments. A couple of highly regarded local wrestlers (Jack Haskins of Whitmer and Kevin Contos of Genoa) have given verbal commitments to attend Ivy League school Brown. I don't know if they would have opted to go to UT if the University had a wrestling team, that would depend on what they plan to study and their own financial situations and the amount of scholarship money they are getting for scholastic achievements. I do know that both are excellent students. Angelo Amenta went to Columbia where he started for 3 years and graduated in 4 years even though his father wrestled at Toledo. Mike Mattin also wrestled for Toledo and two of his sons are now wrestling for Michigan (although Drew Mattin is taking an Olympic redshirt season this year).
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2020 10:50 AM by MotoRocket.)
01-07-2020 10:48 AM
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BearcatMan Online
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Post: #16
RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
To reiterate, I said the idea of EXPANDING the AD is ridiculous...now if you're talking about severe contraction and putting wrestling in then I'd be on board.

Also, shifting that tuition number to only show the surplus aid needed after merit awards and federal aid are added in would only cut roughly 35% of the $9M expense off...so you're still staring down a nice round $18M deficit every year.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2020 12:21 PM by BearcatMan.)
01-07-2020 12:18 PM
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UTerry Offline
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Post: #17
RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
(01-07-2020 09:17 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 08:40 AM)UTerry Wrote:  One aspect of the athletic budget is the cost of scholarships.
The athletic department actually pays/transfers money to the finance/bursars office for the tuition of all athletes on scholarship in all sports.
Understandable.....
But I found out some years ago is that if an athlete is from out of state (or out of the country), the athletic department must also pay out of state of Ohio tuition for each one of those athletes.
Is this a UT only practice or done by all universities????
(note: seems like shuffling the shell game to me....)
How much would that cut off the athletic budget if all athletic scholarships were "classified" (not knowing a better word) as in state???

Nope, that's required by the NCAA. Any Full-pay scholarship limits must be paid as such (any that are partial awards can still collect other additional aid and are not allocated as full awards for the AD's budget purposes).

So to clarify your answer, no it's not a Toledo only shell game. The shell game is required by the NCAA. Correct???
01-07-2020 01:43 PM
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Post: #18
RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
(01-07-2020 01:43 PM)UTerry Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 09:17 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 08:40 AM)UTerry Wrote:  One aspect of the athletic budget is the cost of scholarships.
The athletic department actually pays/transfers money to the finance/bursars office for the tuition of all athletes on scholarship in all sports.
Understandable.....
But I found out some years ago is that if an athlete is from out of state (or out of the country), the athletic department must also pay out of state of Ohio tuition for each one of those athletes.
Is this a UT only practice or done by all universities????
(note: seems like shuffling the shell game to me....)
How much would that cut off the athletic budget if all athletic scholarships were "classified" (not knowing a better word) as in state???

Nope, that's required by the NCAA. Any Full-pay scholarship limits must be paid as such (any that are partial awards can still collect other additional aid and are not allocated as full awards for the AD's budget purposes).

So to clarify your answer, no it's not a Toledo only shell game. The shell game is required by the NCAA. Correct???

When in doubt, just assume the stupid red tape and bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo is the NCAA's fault.
01-07-2020 02:34 PM
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T4C8 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
I love baseball, and am one of the few on here who go to games, but even I am starting to think we should just nix baseball and softball and switch to something more practical for our region.
01-08-2020 11:33 AM
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BearcatMan Online
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Post: #20
RE: WRESTLING AT UT?
(01-08-2020 11:33 AM)T4C8 Wrote:  I love baseball, and am one of the few on here who go to games, but even I am starting to think we should just nix baseball and softball and switch to something more practical for our region.

Yep...especially when you look at the physical and financial infrastructure that is quite honestly wasted on those sports. There is no reason to fill the last open green space on campus with two stadiums that will never be filled for two sports that have won 4 (Softball) and ZERO (Baseball) conference championships in their 40 year and 97 year histories respectively.
01-08-2020 02:14 PM
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