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Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
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Boca Rocket Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-17-2020 11:33 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 08:28 AM)DtownBronco Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 07:33 PM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  Liberal arts---NOT the waste of moeny that BroncoPhiwwy wants everyone to believe they are.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/edu...ts-wrapper

Quote:By
Susan Svrluga
Jan. 14, 2020 at 12:01 a.m. EST

When Erika Hagberg started college at Washington and Lee University, she thought she might want to be a doctor but quickly discarded that idea. She took journalism classes, business classes, music theory, history, calculus, economics, art history. “I had no idea what the hell I wanted to do with my life,” she said.

Twenty-some years later, now director of global sales for Google, Hagberg credits her wide-ranging liberal arts education with preparing her for a demanding business career.

A study from Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce finds that over the course of a career, a liberal arts education is remarkably practical, providing a median return on investment 40 years after enrollment that approaches $1 million. The results, searchable and sortable by institution, were released Tuesday.

It might seem counterintuitive — especially to parents cringing at tuition bills and poetry seminars. But Hagberg said she quickly learned that in the small classes at Washington and Lee, she had to have done the work, be ready to answer tough questions, appreciate multiple perspectives and be able to explain her ideas effectively.

After graduating in 1997, Hagberg took what she thought was a placeholder job — working at AOL — and soon had the drinking-from-a-fire-hose feeling of learning everything possible in a fast-changing environment. Liberal arts helped teach her to be nimble, and to speak up. “The pace of digital disruption is just incredible,” she said. “You have to be comfortable with that chaos.”

There has been a lot of skepticism about the value of a liberal arts education, a feeling that tends to spike during economic downturns, prompting many students and parents to seek training for a specific career. Some small liberal arts colleges have closed, or considered closing, in recent years.

The Georgetown study finds that the return on a liberal arts education is not typically immediate — at 10 years, the median return is $62,000 — but over the decades of a career, it is solid. Only doctoral universities with the two highest levels of research activity, well-known institutions such as Stanford University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, fared better in the school’s estimated return in investment. The median 40-year return of $918,000 at liberal arts colleges is more than 25 percent higher than the median for all colleges, researchers found.

Over a long period, the ideal preparation includes education in a field linked to a career, such as engineering, with the addition of general education that allows a person to be flexible and draw on a wealth of knowledge, according to Anthony P. Carnevale, director of the education and workforce center at Georgetown.

“That’s why over a 30-to-40-year period, a liberal arts education does well,” he said.

In Europe, higher education tends to be more directed toward specific careers, he said, while in the United States it’s more typical to have a major and a variety of other classes. “It turns out in an economy where there are a lot of changes . . . that combination makes you more flexible,” he said, “and gives you more opportunity in the long run.”

For some professors, the idea of return on investment from college is antithetical. They would argue that higher education is designed “to make you a better thinker,” Carnevale said, “to pursue knowledge for its own sake, not to get a job or some other extrinsic value.” But most members of the public think of college as a means to employment, he said.

“I have this conversation day in and day out,” said Michelle Chamberlain, associate vice president of advancement and dean of student opportunities at Claremont McKenna College. “When I talk to prospective families, not only do I get the question about, ‘Is this liberal arts education going to pay off?’ — with ‘liberal arts’ in air quotes — but also, ‘I don’t want my son or daughter to be a philosophy major.’ ”

She explains that critical thinking, writing skills, the ability to think across disciplines, the technical classwork, the internship experiences of students — all provide good preparation for the workforce and are things employers are seeking.

The Georgetown study follows a more sweeping analysis by the center using federal data to calculate net present value to estimate return on investment at more than 4,500 colleges and universities across the country. The study takes into account factors including costs, financial aid and future earnings.

In this case, they examined institutions listed by the Carnegie Classification system as Baccalaureate Colleges: Arts & Sciences Focus — what most people think of as liberal arts colleges, schools primarily offering bachelor’s degrees, and not large research universities.

The researchers found considerable variability within the group of liberal arts schools, with the most selective schools producing significantly higher returns than the median. Schools with high graduation rates tended to have better results. Schools with a high proportion of students studying business, engineering, science, technology and mathematics typically had higher returns on investment, probably because those majors often lead to careers with higher earning potential.

Location seems to be a factor as well, with earnings higher in some parts of the country. So is family income: At Talladega College, where 93 percent of students receive Pell grants, the long-term return on investment was estimated at $432,000

Harvey Mudd College, with its emphasis on science, engineering and math, had the highest ranking among the 200-plus liberal arts colleges for net present value at 40 years: $1.85 million. Washington and Lee was second, with a 40-year return calculated at $1.58 million. Claremont McKenna also ranked among the top 50 of all colleges for its 40-year returns.

At Washington and Lee, there are three accredited programs that most liberal arts colleges don’t have, said John A. Jensen III, dean of career and professional development — its law school, and undergraduate journalism and business programs.

Julianna Keeling was focused on return on investment when she was applying to colleges, she said. Coming from a Richmond high school emphasizing math and science, a liberal arts school wasn’t the obvious choice, especially for someone interested in medicine and in developing plant-based polymers. A full scholarship offer drew her to Washington and Lee, where she took a variety of classes before graduating last year.

“Being forced to take history [and] literature really helped me to open up my mind to other types of ideas, to better find my passion,” Keeling said. For one class, she traveled to South Dakota to learn about Lakota philosophy and culture, ideas about ecology that influence her today.

She launched a company, Terravive, selling consumer products that people can easily compost at home. Did she miss the access to all the labs and resources of a large research university?

“Yes, of course,” Keeling said, “it would be great to have that. But I’m really happy with the education I got. It gave me the confidence to start Terravive . . . and the leadership skills to build this company.”

Hagberg said her professors expected her to be actively involved in class, and that has helped her during her career: When she knows she has the right answer at Google, she speaks up.

“We debate a lot, we challenge each other a lot in this industry,” listening to diverse perspectives and interrogating issues, Hagberg said. “I’m not afraid to have a voice.”

Using ROI as a metric, I was able to eclipse $1M in career earnings in less than half the time noted in this article with my mechanical engineering degree from WMU's "Community College of Engineering" as it's been so eloquently put. With my program and gen ed requirements I was also able to minor in mathematics and philosophy, and believe me when I say that 4th differential equations is more art than science. Not to mention using my personal vehicle as a test mule for vehicle dynamics testing and chassis dynomometer runs getting some hands-on, wrench turning, knuckle busting real world knowledge while doing classroom work. No master's degree required. So I stand firmly with BroncoPhilly on this one.


Thank you.

Charm City is obviously a quiche eater who has his teats in a wringer because he majored in Fine Arts and ended up Managing a Cinabun, or something along those lines.

A friend of mine got a Masters in Music at scUM and-after getting the boot in an overseas orchestra-now works as a clerk/substitute teacher/lawn mower on the Left Coast. Sadly, there is not a lot of demand for over-the-hill musicians who haven't established themselves by the time they're 45-50. He was plenty smart enough to be a good engineer/physician/accountant, but didn't have the guidance at home to instruct him to select his major with a little common sense along with his passion for the arts. Too bad, so sad.

As for me, I'm toying with the idea of retiring in a few years-after 44 years in the auto industry. Never been unemployed in that time, picked up my Masters and PhD in electrical engineering along the way. Work mainly on advanced propulsion vehicles these days. When I retire I'd like to take some classes in history and other things I have interests in, but didn't have the time to follow up on during my initial schooling and career. Learning never ends!

My oldest(30) has a performing arts degree in vocal performance. They are in management with a tech giant.
01-18-2020 01:49 PM
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MajorHoople Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
Foolish me, but I always believed there was value in being an "educated person" - not just one who has been trained to make a living.
01-18-2020 02:51 PM
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Aimless1 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
Impossible to justify be a Spartan fan right now. This from someone (me) who has bled green and white since 1965. Time to give them up.

That said, can't bring myself to give up Izzo and the Spartan basketball program.
01-18-2020 06:52 PM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-18-2020 10:37 AM)GullLake Wrote:  
(01-18-2020 08:31 AM)arrows80 Wrote:  "Charm City is obviously a quiche eater who has his teats in a wringer because he majored in Fine Arts and ended up Managing a Cinabun, or something along those lines."

God, this board is money.

Well, it is a step-up from when so many on the CMU board thought what Jerry Seymore and Jimmy King did to DeMarcus Graham was no big deal. That was cheap, crass, and disturbing.

Then there are your dirty Spartans and a fan base that has no trouble with Dantonio bringing a serial sexual assaulter onto campus against the advice of his own AD and assistant coach.

So, yes, a conversation about the virtues and vices of a traditional liberal arts edcuation is "money" by comparison.

We Broncos fight and battle, but we keep it at a high level. You Chimps toss fecal matter at each other and engage in beer-belch contests.
01-20-2020 02:01 PM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-18-2020 01:49 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(01-17-2020 11:33 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 08:28 AM)DtownBronco Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 07:33 PM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  Liberal arts---NOT the waste of moeny that BroncoPhiwwy wants everyone to believe they are.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/edu...ts-wrapper

Quote:By
Susan Svrluga
Jan. 14, 2020 at 12:01 a.m. EST

When Erika Hagberg started college at Washington and Lee University, she thought she might want to be a doctor but quickly discarded that idea. She took journalism classes, business classes, music theory, history, calculus, economics, art history. “I had no idea what the hell I wanted to do with my life,” she said.

Twenty-some years later, now director of global sales for Google, Hagberg credits her wide-ranging liberal arts education with preparing her for a demanding business career.

A study from Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce finds that over the course of a career, a liberal arts education is remarkably practical, providing a median return on investment 40 years after enrollment that approaches $1 million. The results, searchable and sortable by institution, were released Tuesday.

It might seem counterintuitive — especially to parents cringing at tuition bills and poetry seminars. But Hagberg said she quickly learned that in the small classes at Washington and Lee, she had to have done the work, be ready to answer tough questions, appreciate multiple perspectives and be able to explain her ideas effectively.

After graduating in 1997, Hagberg took what she thought was a placeholder job — working at AOL — and soon had the drinking-from-a-fire-hose feeling of learning everything possible in a fast-changing environment. Liberal arts helped teach her to be nimble, and to speak up. “The pace of digital disruption is just incredible,” she said. “You have to be comfortable with that chaos.”

There has been a lot of skepticism about the value of a liberal arts education, a feeling that tends to spike during economic downturns, prompting many students and parents to seek training for a specific career. Some small liberal arts colleges have closed, or considered closing, in recent years.

The Georgetown study finds that the return on a liberal arts education is not typically immediate — at 10 years, the median return is $62,000 — but over the decades of a career, it is solid. Only doctoral universities with the two highest levels of research activity, well-known institutions such as Stanford University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, fared better in the school’s estimated return in investment. The median 40-year return of $918,000 at liberal arts colleges is more than 25 percent higher than the median for all colleges, researchers found.

Over a long period, the ideal preparation includes education in a field linked to a career, such as engineering, with the addition of general education that allows a person to be flexible and draw on a wealth of knowledge, according to Anthony P. Carnevale, director of the education and workforce center at Georgetown.

“That’s why over a 30-to-40-year period, a liberal arts education does well,” he said.

In Europe, higher education tends to be more directed toward specific careers, he said, while in the United States it’s more typical to have a major and a variety of other classes. “It turns out in an economy where there are a lot of changes . . . that combination makes you more flexible,” he said, “and gives you more opportunity in the long run.”

For some professors, the idea of return on investment from college is antithetical. They would argue that higher education is designed “to make you a better thinker,” Carnevale said, “to pursue knowledge for its own sake, not to get a job or some other extrinsic value.” But most members of the public think of college as a means to employment, he said.

“I have this conversation day in and day out,” said Michelle Chamberlain, associate vice president of advancement and dean of student opportunities at Claremont McKenna College. “When I talk to prospective families, not only do I get the question about, ‘Is this liberal arts education going to pay off?’ — with ‘liberal arts’ in air quotes — but also, ‘I don’t want my son or daughter to be a philosophy major.’ ”

She explains that critical thinking, writing skills, the ability to think across disciplines, the technical classwork, the internship experiences of students — all provide good preparation for the workforce and are things employers are seeking.

The Georgetown study follows a more sweeping analysis by the center using federal data to calculate net present value to estimate return on investment at more than 4,500 colleges and universities across the country. The study takes into account factors including costs, financial aid and future earnings.

In this case, they examined institutions listed by the Carnegie Classification system as Baccalaureate Colleges: Arts & Sciences Focus — what most people think of as liberal arts colleges, schools primarily offering bachelor’s degrees, and not large research universities.

The researchers found considerable variability within the group of liberal arts schools, with the most selective schools producing significantly higher returns than the median. Schools with high graduation rates tended to have better results. Schools with a high proportion of students studying business, engineering, science, technology and mathematics typically had higher returns on investment, probably because those majors often lead to careers with higher earning potential.

Location seems to be a factor as well, with earnings higher in some parts of the country. So is family income: At Talladega College, where 93 percent of students receive Pell grants, the long-term return on investment was estimated at $432,000

Harvey Mudd College, with its emphasis on science, engineering and math, had the highest ranking among the 200-plus liberal arts colleges for net present value at 40 years: $1.85 million. Washington and Lee was second, with a 40-year return calculated at $1.58 million. Claremont McKenna also ranked among the top 50 of all colleges for its 40-year returns.

At Washington and Lee, there are three accredited programs that most liberal arts colleges don’t have, said John A. Jensen III, dean of career and professional development — its law school, and undergraduate journalism and business programs.

Julianna Keeling was focused on return on investment when she was applying to colleges, she said. Coming from a Richmond high school emphasizing math and science, a liberal arts school wasn’t the obvious choice, especially for someone interested in medicine and in developing plant-based polymers. A full scholarship offer drew her to Washington and Lee, where she took a variety of classes before graduating last year.

“Being forced to take history [and] literature really helped me to open up my mind to other types of ideas, to better find my passion,” Keeling said. For one class, she traveled to South Dakota to learn about Lakota philosophy and culture, ideas about ecology that influence her today.

She launched a company, Terravive, selling consumer products that people can easily compost at home. Did she miss the access to all the labs and resources of a large research university?

“Yes, of course,” Keeling said, “it would be great to have that. But I’m really happy with the education I got. It gave me the confidence to start Terravive . . . and the leadership skills to build this company.”

Hagberg said her professors expected her to be actively involved in class, and that has helped her during her career: When she knows she has the right answer at Google, she speaks up.

“We debate a lot, we challenge each other a lot in this industry,” listening to diverse perspectives and interrogating issues, Hagberg said. “I’m not afraid to have a voice.”

Using ROI as a metric, I was able to eclipse $1M in career earnings in less than half the time noted in this article with my mechanical engineering degree from WMU's "Community College of Engineering" as it's been so eloquently put. With my program and gen ed requirements I was also able to minor in mathematics and philosophy, and believe me when I say that 4th differential equations is more art than science. Not to mention using my personal vehicle as a test mule for vehicle dynamics testing and chassis dynomometer runs getting some hands-on, wrench turning, knuckle busting real world knowledge while doing classroom work. No master's degree required. So I stand firmly with BroncoPhilly on this one.


Thank you.

Charm City is obviously a quiche eater who has his teats in a wringer because he majored in Fine Arts and ended up Managing a Cinabun, or something along those lines.

A friend of mine got a Masters in Music at scUM and-after getting the boot in an overseas orchestra-now works as a clerk/substitute teacher/lawn mower on the Left Coast. Sadly, there is not a lot of demand for over-the-hill musicians who haven't established themselves by the time they're 45-50. He was plenty smart enough to be a good engineer/physician/accountant, but didn't have the guidance at home to instruct him to select his major with a little common sense along with his passion for the arts. Too bad, so sad.

As for me, I'm toying with the idea of retiring in a few years-after 44 years in the auto industry. Never been unemployed in that time, picked up my Masters and PhD in electrical engineering along the way. Work mainly on advanced propulsion vehicles these days. When I retire I'd like to take some classes in history and other things I have interests in, but didn't have the time to follow up on during my initial schooling and career. Learning never ends!

My oldest(30) has a performing arts degree in vocal performance. They are in management with a tech giant.

My KUDOS to him, but did his degree prepare him for that role-or was it his innate ability?
01-20-2020 02:04 PM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-18-2020 02:51 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Foolish me, but I always believed there was value in being an "educated person" - not just one who has been trained to make a living.


Did IQ's drop 30 points in this forum recently? When did I ever say being an 'educated person' had no value? My argument is simply that state schools like Western should focus on career preparation and leave the Liberal Arts to private colleges.

That's a rock solid argument, is probably widely supported among state taxpayers and would serve to prevent closure of state schools in the future.

You folks are cooking-up an argument I never made, doing battle with it and trying to assume the High Road. It's a red-herring argument and all your flawed attempts to reframe my arguments only show how you lack anything to propose in place of it.

If some thinking person has alternative suggestions to mine to address declining university enrollment in Michigan I'd like to hear them. But let's argue on the basis of THINKING proposals and not emotive responses.
01-20-2020 02:10 PM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
We need appropriate music for this argument-confrontation:



01-20-2020 02:18 PM
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MajorHoople Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
Career preparation good idea.

Problem is a lot of kids THINK they know but don't know for sure-change majors (some more than once) when they get to college.
01-20-2020 03:53 PM
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MajorHoople Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
To paraphrase Harrington Emerson - many can learn methods.

But they must also learn principles - and not just scientific ones.

Where does the latter happen, Philly?
01-20-2020 04:32 PM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-20-2020 04:32 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  To paraphrase Harrington Emerson - many can learn methods.

But they must also learn principles - and not just scientific ones.

Where does the latter happen, Philly?

On your own initiative, maybe? I was pretty well read before I ever went away to Western. You either have those interests, or you don't. If you don't have them by the time you go away to college you likely never will.

Grade school and HS education was no great shakes when I was that age, sadly today it is much worse. That's where you need to be learning the principles you're referring to. Many if not most kids today are NOT.
01-20-2020 09:26 PM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-20-2020 03:53 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Career preparation good idea.

Problem is a lot of kids THINK they know but don't know for sure-change majors (some more than once) when they get to college.

Good point. My father helped me a lot, using my core interests and guiding me in the selection of a major that would be marketable.

Unfortunately, not all parents are as engaged-they let their kids choose a major without input or guidance and you can see the results. Like my nephew with the Poly Sci major from MSU, who can't find a good job in his major. He still lives with his folks in his late 20's and works wherever he can find work.

You're correct in that many students that age lack the real-world experience and maturity to choose an appropriate major. Parents need to step in, but many do not. And some parents lack the common sense to give career guidance-my friend who received the Masters in Music from UM had a couple of......Leftist parents, who gave him touchy-feely input instead of common sense input. I told him at the time he graduated from HS that music wasn't that marketable, but he knew better than me. And here he is today, living in an apartment with 4 other guys, always broke and working wherever he can make a buck. Very unfortunate, but it was predictable to anyone with common sense. The laughable thing is today, at 64 years old, he still lacks the introspection to admit to himself he screwed up. Amazing.
(This post was last modified: 01-20-2020 09:39 PM by BroncoPhilly.)
01-20-2020 09:31 PM
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Charm City Bronco Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-20-2020 02:10 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  Did IQ's drop 30 points in this forum recently? When did I ever say being an 'educated person' had no value? My argument is simply that state schools like Western should focus on career preparation and leave the Liberal Arts to private colleges.

That's a rock solid argument, is probably widely supported among state taxpayers and would serve to prevent closure of state schools in the future.

You folks are cooking-up an argument I never made, doing battle with it and trying to assume the High Road. It's a red-herring argument and all your flawed attempts to reframe my arguments only show how you lack anything to propose in place of it.

If some thinking person has alternative suggestions to mine to address declining university enrollment in Michigan I'd like to hear them. But let's argue on the basis of THINKING proposals and not emotive responses.

Your maldeveloped social skills, clearly nursed over your career as an engineer, are preventing you from seeing and understanding the gray area in this argument. You also threw out the absurd claim that WMU should only have five degree programs and trash all the other ones as worthless. Hard tp engage in a serious discussion with someone throwing out such nonsense.

Probably not a wise idea for a student to get a poli sci major without thinking how one is going to put that degree to good use (i.e. move to DC). Liberal arts can and should be subject to cuts if they are bloated and wasteful, like so much other spending at WMU and in state colleges in general. But nonsense like "get rid of all of them" is ridiculous. There are lots of liberal arts grads from WMU who are smart, hardworking and successful, even if they didn't pursue a STEM career track.

Now get bent.
01-20-2020 09:47 PM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-20-2020 09:47 PM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 02:10 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  Did IQ's drop 30 points in this forum recently? When did I ever say being an 'educated person' had no value? My argument is simply that state schools like Western should focus on career preparation and leave the Liberal Arts to private colleges.

That's a rock solid argument, is probably widely supported among state taxpayers and would serve to prevent closure of state schools in the future.

You folks are cooking-up an argument I never made, doing battle with it and trying to assume the High Road. It's a red-herring argument and all your flawed attempts to reframe my arguments only show how you lack anything to propose in place of it.

If some thinking person has alternative suggestions to mine to address declining university enrollment in Michigan I'd like to hear them. But let's argue on the basis of THINKING proposals and not emotive responses.

Your maldeveloped social skills, clearly nursed over your career as an engineer, are preventing you from seeing and understanding the gray area in this argument. You also threw out the absurd claim that WMU should only have five degree programs and trash all the other ones as worthless. Hard tp engage in a serious discussion with someone throwing out such nonsense.

Probably not a wise idea for a student to get a poli sci major without thinking how one is going to put that degree to good use (i.e. move to DC). Liberal arts can and should be subject to cuts if they are bloated and wasteful, like so much other spending at WMU and in state colleges in general. But nonsense like "get rid of all of them" is ridiculous. There are lots of liberal arts grads from WMU who are smart, hardworking and successful, even if they didn't pursue a STEM career track.

Now get bent.

You're still persisting in attributing points to me that I didn't make, ala your '5 majors...' nonsense.

You can't argue rationally, even by mistake. Your emotive responses really are a waste of time to debate.

I made a solid argument, you responded as an arse with his teat in a wringer. Further discussion along these lines with a fool like you is wasted time and I have little to waste.

You're a poor representative for Western. Do us a favor and tell others you graduated from CMU. Please.
01-20-2020 09:54 PM
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HaymondAtThe4 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
Quote:my friend who received the Masters in Music from UM had a couple of......Leftist parents, who gave him touchy-feely input instead of common sense input. I told him at the time he graduated from HS that music wasn't that marketable, but he knew better than me. And here he is today, living in an apartment with 4 other guys, always broke and working wherever he can make a buck. Very unfortunate, but it was predictable to anyone with common sense. The laughable thing is today, at 64 years old, he still lacks the introspection to admit to himself he screwed up. Amazing.

You seem like a really good friend. I bet this guy loves hanging out with you.
01-21-2020 08:59 AM
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Post: #55
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-20-2020 09:31 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 03:53 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Career preparation good idea.

Problem is a lot of kids THINK they know but don't know for sure-change majors (some more than once) when they get to college.

Good point. My father helped me a lot, using my core interests and guiding me in the selection of a major that would be marketable.

Unfortunately, not all parents are as engaged-they let their kids choose a major without input or guidance and you can see the results. Like my nephew with the Poly Sci major from MSU, who can't find a good job in his major. He still lives with his folks in his late 20's and works wherever he can find work.

You're correct in that many students that age lack the real-world experience and maturity to choose an appropriate major. Parents need to step in, but many do not. And some parents lack the common sense to give career guidance-my friend who received the Masters in Music from UM had a couple of......Leftist parents, who gave him touchy-feely input instead of common sense input. I told him at the time he graduated from HS that music wasn't that marketable, but he knew better than me. And here he is today, living in an apartment with 4 other guys, always broke and working wherever he can make a buck. Very unfortunate, but it was predictable to anyone with common sense. The laughable thing is today, at 64 years old, he still lacks the introspection to admit to himself he screwed up. Amazing.

I have a feeling your "friend" is in that situation more due to lack of work ethic, determination, etc than whatever education he received. Or maybe he just enjoys his lifestyle more than the daily monotonous grind (especially considering his age - you could get your foot in the door at many corporations for steady work back then if desired)

To each his own.
01-21-2020 10:06 AM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-21-2020 08:59 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  
Quote:my friend who received the Masters in Music from UM had a couple of......Leftist parents, who gave him touchy-feely input instead of common sense input. I told him at the time he graduated from HS that music wasn't that marketable, but he knew better than me. And here he is today, living in an apartment with 4 other guys, always broke and working wherever he can make a buck. Very unfortunate, but it was predictable to anyone with common sense. The laughable thing is today, at 64 years old, he still lacks the introspection to admit to himself he screwed up. Amazing.

You seem like a really good friend. I bet this guy loves hanging out with you.


He and his family were Democrats and MAJOR Jimmy Carter supporters in 1976. They've been Dems all their lives. I'm a conservative Republican and I've lived my life in accordance with my beliefs and values.

He's been my friend for almost a half century, but I don't hold back when he's demonstrated foolishness in his life. Particularly when he hasn't learned from all his mistakes. What kind of a friend would I be if I coddled his errors of judgement? You and I see things differently, I guess.

I'd like to note that his son got a degree in Computer Science from Princeton, partially due to my influence and input. First one in the family to break away from Liberal Arts/Fine Arts. He won't have any problems getting a good job!

I never said I was the easiest person in the world to be a friend with, but you can never doubt my guidance is well-intended and well-considered before being offered. I value my friends enough to be candid with them, they'll have to go someplace else to find someone to tickle their ears.
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2020 10:26 AM by BroncoPhilly.)
01-21-2020 10:22 AM
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Boca Rocket Offline
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RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-20-2020 02:04 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  
(01-18-2020 01:49 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(01-17-2020 11:33 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  
(01-15-2020 08:28 AM)DtownBronco Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 07:33 PM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  Liberal arts---NOT the waste of moeny that BroncoPhiwwy wants everyone to believe they are.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/edu...ts-wrapper

Using ROI as a metric, I was able to eclipse $1M in career earnings in less than half the time noted in this article with my mechanical engineering degree from WMU's "Community College of Engineering" as it's been so eloquently put. With my program and gen ed requirements I was also able to minor in mathematics and philosophy, and believe me when I say that 4th differential equations is more art than science. Not to mention using my personal vehicle as a test mule for vehicle dynamics testing and chassis dynomometer runs getting some hands-on, wrench turning, knuckle busting real world knowledge while doing classroom work. No master's degree required. So I stand firmly with BroncoPhilly on this one.


Thank you.

Charm City is obviously a quiche eater who has his teats in a wringer because he majored in Fine Arts and ended up Managing a Cinabun, or something along those lines.

A friend of mine got a Masters in Music at scUM and-after getting the boot in an overseas orchestra-now works as a clerk/substitute teacher/lawn mower on the Left Coast. Sadly, there is not a lot of demand for over-the-hill musicians who haven't established themselves by the time they're 45-50. He was plenty smart enough to be a good engineer/physician/accountant, but didn't have the guidance at home to instruct him to select his major with a little common sense along with his passion for the arts. Too bad, so sad.

As for me, I'm toying with the idea of retiring in a few years-after 44 years in the auto industry. Never been unemployed in that time, picked up my Masters and PhD in electrical engineering along the way. Work mainly on advanced propulsion vehicles these days. When I retire I'd like to take some classes in history and other things I have interests in, but didn't have the time to follow up on during my initial schooling and career. Learning never ends!

My oldest(30) has a performing arts degree in vocal performance. They are in management with a tech giant.

My KUDOS to him, but did his degree prepare him for that role-or was it his innate ability?

A lot of stage time. Ability to communicate is off the charts. Competing for roles and rankings has certainly translated well in the Corporate world.
Been some talk of possibly moving to Corporate headquarters to be involved in music related software. This is a kid that we literally had to push out of the car as a freshman in HS to go to a Performing Arts Club rush picnic. HS got the juices flowing. College was transformational.
01-21-2020 10:28 AM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-21-2020 10:06 AM)GRBRONCO Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 09:31 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 03:53 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Career preparation good idea.

Problem is a lot of kids THINK they know but don't know for sure-change majors (some more than once) when they get to college.

Good point. My father helped me a lot, using my core interests and guiding me in the selection of a major that would be marketable.

Unfortunately, not all parents are as engaged-they let their kids choose a major without input or guidance and you can see the results. Like my nephew with the Poly Sci major from MSU, who can't find a good job in his major. He still lives with his folks in his late 20's and works wherever he can find work.

You're correct in that many students that age lack the real-world experience and maturity to choose an appropriate major. Parents need to step in, but many do not. And some parents lack the common sense to give career guidance-my friend who received the Masters in Music from UM had a couple of......Leftist parents, who gave him touchy-feely input instead of common sense input. I told him at the time he graduated from HS that music wasn't that marketable, but he knew better than me. And here he is today, living in an apartment with 4 other guys, always broke and working wherever he can make a buck. Very unfortunate, but it was predictable to anyone with common sense. The laughable thing is today, at 64 years old, he still lacks the introspection to admit to himself he screwed up. Amazing.

I have a feeling your "friend" is in that situation more due to lack of work ethic, determination, etc than whatever education he received. Or maybe he just enjoys his lifestyle more than the daily monotonous grind (especially considering his age - you could get your foot in the door at many corporations for steady work back then if desired)

To each his own.


Truth, he was never a ball of fire. We used to work lots of different jobs to help fund our college during the summers, I always worked my azz off at whatever we were doing-he went through the motions if the work was unpleasant or tedious. I've always believed a persons work represents his values and you should always do the best job you can at whatever you're doing-he tended to believe physical work was beneath him to some extent.

He moved overseas after college, married a local girl and she was the one if the family with the high work ethic. While he was an orchestral musician, she was working in retail industry and working her way up through management and putting in long hours. She finally got fed up with his lack of drive and got a divorce, he left the orchestra moved back to the USA and has been doing odd jobs and freelance music ever since.

He was smart enough to have gotten a more marketable degree and a better job, but he was more interested in the 'prestige' of being a musician, going on occasional world tours and letting his wife bring in the big income. Not surprising how things ended up, really.

Any of you guys ever read about Bob Love of the Chicago Bulls? When he was at the top of his bball career he lived for the moment and never saved a dime. When his basketball career ended, he had nothing to show for it. He ended up busing tables at a friends restaurant! Can you imagine the letdown he felt doing that? He'd hear restaurant patrons whisper under their breaths about how 'That's Bob Love, he used to play for the Bulls!'.

But instead of reacting with self-pity, he decided to make the best of it. If he was going to bus tables, he decided he was going to do the best job possible. He'd RUSH to the table when the patrons left, beating the other guys, and clean the tables so they were immaculate. He wanted his work to be a reflection of Bob Love the man, whatever he did he wanted it to be a reflection of his values. He started at the bottom, but through hard work and persistence worked his way back up and eventually secured a position with the Bull's Organization.

I greatly admire folks like that-far more for what he did AFTER his basketball career ended. He has gumption and pride. If we had more folks like that and less feeling sorry for themselves what a great nation this could be.
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2020 10:45 AM by BroncoPhilly.)
01-21-2020 10:37 AM
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Charm City Bronco Offline
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RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-21-2020 10:22 AM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  He and his family were Democrats and MAJOR Jimmy Carter supporters in 1976. They've been Dems all their lives. I'm a conservative Republican and I've lived my life in accordance with my beliefs and values.

He's been my friend for almost a half century, but I don't hold back when he's demonstrated foolishness in his life. Particularly when he hasn't learned from all his mistakes. What kind of a friend would I be if I coddled his errors of judgement? You and I see things differently, I guess.

I'd like to note that his son got a degree in Computer Science from Princeton, partially due to my influence and input. First one in the family to break away from Liberal Arts/Fine Arts. He won't have any problems getting a good job!

I never said I was the easiest person in the world to be a friend with, but you can never doubt my guidance is well-intended and well-considered before being offered. I value my friends enough to be candid with them, they'll have to go someplace else to find someone to tickle their ears.

Ever heard the term "better to let everyone think you're stupid than to open your mouth and let them know?" Well it most certainly applies to you. Every time you open your mouth in this thread you come across as even more smug and elitist and unlikable. I tried to meet you halfway and acknowledge that WMU could improve its focus on STEP programs and cut some liberal arts fat, but that wasn't enough for you. Everyone is destined for failure if they don't follow the exact same career path as Bronco Phiwwy.

I'm proud of my education and my alma mater and what I have accomplished. Try not to be such a bitter old alum.
01-21-2020 09:52 PM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-21-2020 09:52 PM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 10:22 AM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  He and his family were Democrats and MAJOR Jimmy Carter supporters in 1976. They've been Dems all their lives. I'm a conservative Republican and I've lived my life in accordance with my beliefs and values.

He's been my friend for almost a half century, but I don't hold back when he's demonstrated foolishness in his life. Particularly when he hasn't learned from all his mistakes. What kind of a friend would I be if I coddled his errors of judgement? You and I see things differently, I guess.

I'd like to note that his son got a degree in Computer Science from Princeton, partially due to my influence and input. First one in the family to break away from Liberal Arts/Fine Arts. He won't have any problems getting a good job!

I never said I was the easiest person in the world to be a friend with, but you can never doubt my guidance is well-intended and well-considered before being offered. I value my friends enough to be candid with them, they'll have to go someplace else to find someone to tickle their ears.

Ever heard the term "better to let everyone think you're stupid than to open your mouth and let them know?" Well it most certainly applies to you. Every time you open your mouth in this thread you come across as even more smug and elitist and unlikable. I tried to meet you halfway and acknowledge that WMU could improve its focus on STEP programs and cut some liberal arts fat, but that wasn't enough for you. Everyone is destined for failure if they don't follow the exact same career path as Bronco Phiwwy.

I'm proud of my education and my alma mater and what I have accomplished. Try not to be such a bitter old alum.


Infantile ridicule and childish retorts suit you perfectly and you've resorted to them repeatedly in your diatribe. You launched ballistically over an absolute rock-solid proposal I made, clearly signalling your hair-trigger temper on this topic. I intended no offense towards you or anyone else, but it's clear you took it that way from the get-go.

Going through life with a permanent chip on your shoulder really isn't conducive to keeping your blood pressure under control. You should seek counseling to defuse this temper condition and address your weak ego, you'll live longer. As for the point I made up front, it remains the best proposal I've seen in this discussion. It's very unfortunate that your temper-tantrum deflected an otherwise interesting discussion, but that was your fault and not mine.

Finally, I'm not at all bitter. But I am disappointed that when a person tries to think in this forum and discuss things with more than catch-phrases and cute commentary it confuses, frightens or angers some of you. I'll try and take into account your limitations going forward, no need to subject the forum to more tantrums.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2020 10:58 AM by BroncoPhilly.)
01-22-2020 06:40 PM
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